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BCClist diaspora, part 2
A new thread to continue the general discussion, trying to keep the thread lengths managable…
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whonoze 
I want to point out some stuff about the struggle on the ground. Everything John and GZ said about the fight is preposterous. I’ve practices judo for 5 years. It was a long time ago, but for those 5 years I would practice techniques and do actual ground fights at least once or twice a week. What John and GZ claim, may happen in the movies, but is physically impossible in real life.
First thing to keep in mind is that according to the autopsie report, Trayvon weighed in at 158 lbs. According to GZ’s medical report, he weighed 204 lbs, the morning after the incident. GZ was 46 lbs heavier than Trayvon.
Check this drawing by John. He draws two situations. According to him situation 1 was what he saw when he first peeked out and while he was watching they moved to situation 2.
You can find John’s drawing on page 4.
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/documents-2/court-documents/7th-supplemental-discovery-9192012/
In the first position GZ was completely on the grass on his back, with his feet pointing towards John. John has Trayvon on top of GZ in a mounted position, The grassy area slopes down from the dog walk towards John’s patio. That means GZ’s head was higher than his feet. According to John’s first statement Trayvon was wailing down on GZ.
I checked some videos about the techniques used in mma especially in ground and pound. It is mixed martial arts in that it uses techniques from judo and jiu jitsu. I was interested how they managed to control and hit at the same time.
Keeping control of somebody in the mounted position is very difficult even if you use both legs and arms and are about the same weight. People who are trained in mma, won’t start pounding until they’ve got a complete lock and then they at least use one arm and their upper body to keep the person underneath locked down.So they will never use both arms and hands to pound the person on the bottom. So only a highly trained mma’r of the approximate same weight, would be able to use one hand at a time to hit the person on the bottom.
To maintain control it is absolutely necessary to keep the person’s shoulders pinned to the ground. According to John and GZ, GZ was attempting to sit up. Both his shoulders were off the ground. GZ was also in a slightly upwards position because of the slope of the grassy area, which gave him even more of an advantage. Trayvon on the other hand would have been out of balance, and with his lighter weight wouldn’t have been able to maintain the top position.
My conclusion is that if Trayvon was the person on top, he was not in control.
Then according to John, they moved with Trayvon still on top,onto the side walk and they were now perpendicular to John’s patio.
That move is impossible unless both people wanted to move in that direction.
In a ground fight if you are pinned down to the ground, and you can move the bottom part of your body, that means the person on top is controling the top part of your body but not your legs. To move up to the sidewalk without the person on top losing the top position, it would’ve meant the person on top had to lift the person on the bottom and basicly carry him to the sidewalk. If the person on the bottom scooted to that position it would mean the person at the bottom had no control over the person on top.
My conclusion is that the second move never happened or both people wanted to move in that direction. If Trayvon were the one on top, he may have attempted to get away from GZ, by trying to get up and move towards the sidewalk, while GZ was holding onto him.
I doubt John knows anything about MMA. My hypothesis has always been that he was basically fed his MMA version by leading questions from the cops. I think he saw the first part of the struggle, shouted something at the men, then gathered up his fiance and high-tailed it upstairs to hide, not even looking out his window until after the shot went off and all the noise stopped. In his 911 call he wasn’t even sure it was a gunshot, and speculated it might have been a rock hitting a window. I doubt he went downstairs, and then went outside to speak to GZ and Jon in the brief period before Smith arrived. Certainly no one who observed the scene after the shot — Selma, or W18 especially — mentions anything about seeing him then. So I have to guess he was inside his home until after GZ was carted off, and GZ had no opportunity to speak with him.
So, it seems to me, only only a few things could have led to the elaboration and inflation of his account from the 911 call ‘wrestling’ to the statement ‘strattle’ position. The least likely is that he had a phone conversation with his neighbors to the North, W11 and/or Jeremy, and they compared notes and prepped some kind of story to help out GZ, their acquaintance from the HOA. But neither W11 or Jeremy corroborate John. They say they didn’t see anything (which I’ve never believed for a second). The only ways I can see John coming up with an account that is consistent with what GZ told Singleton is: a) it actually happened that way, kinda (TM was on top for awhile and John mistook flailing arms for blows); b) Smith heard GZ’s version, relayed it to Ayala, and Ayala asked John leading questions based on GZ’s account, that he answered in the affirmative, trying to be cooperative, and to sound like he knew more than he did, perhaps not wanting to reveal how little he saw because that would reveal how scared and ‘unmanly’ he’d been.
Once John starts going in that direction, he goes all in on it, because he doesn’t want to reveal that he bullshitting and that he may have been snookered. In the immediate aftermath of the shooting, the self-defense narrative seems to be prevailing, and he’s comfortable in his position. As time goes on, and he sees the situation turning, he realizes he could be in real trouble, so he gives his later statements where he says he didn’t see any actual blows, nor could he identify who was yelling, etc.
Given the forensic evidence, I don’t think there’s much chance of a) since, as Mirre notes above, John claims to have observed the struggle long enough to see the two men move their position from the grass to the sidewalk, with TM on top the whole time. There’s no evidence they ever were on the sidewalk proper, but it makes a nice fit with GZ’s claim that his head was getting bashed on concrete.
In sum, if John didn’t actually see the things he described, how did he come up with that particular account? It seems to me the only agents who had the means and opportunity to affect John’s story were the officers on scene, especially Ricardo Ayala (John having given his statement to Ayala well before Chris Serino arrived). It’s also perhaps of some significance that while other witness accounts were recorded, Ayala only took a written statement, I wonder if he more or less dictated how to word it to John.
I should note that I don’t think such a scenario requires nefarious intent on Ayala’s part. He simply could have been trying to close the case quickly so he could get home, or something like that. Figuring dead-black-teen-in-a-hoodie-shot-by-NW-guy must have gone down the way GZ said (via Smith) he could have just wanted to save time and work by pushing things along in the direction he figured they had to go anyway.
I mean, think about it. How is it that Fox news knew to contact John the next morning for an interview? I doubt they knocked on all the doors around the perimeter of the shooting and he just happened to be the only person willing to talk. TV news crews don’t work that hard. No, I’m betting the reporter asked the cops what happened, and the cops said, talk to the guy at 1221 TTL, he saw it all…
John was watching and listening from his upstairs bedroom. In one of his statements he said he heard GZ say he had shot Trayvon in self-defense. John also made a remark about how much it hurts when your head is smashed on the pavement. Interesting thing though is that his sequence of events is the exact opposite from the one GZ told.
The prosecution is probably going to grill him about what he heard and who he was talking to, before he made his statements.
Point remains, the way he describes it is impossible.
Both George and W6 referred to “MMA” in their interviews.
I can’t remember which interview came first and which came second….but, it’s likely George and W6 spoke shortly after the shooting and coordinated their stories…
GZ and W6 did not have the opportunity to speak after the shooting. W6 has to have either actually seen it that way (which I doubt, especially in light of Amsterdam’s knowledge of martial arts), or been fed the particulars by a third party. The only people who DID have an opportunity to hear George’s story were members of the SPD, especially Ofc. Timothy Smith who escorted GZ to the cop shop and then witnessed GZ’s interview with Inspector Singleton. That’s why there’s a ‘Let’s make an SPD file’ page. I believe Smith relayed GZ’s version to Ricardo Ayala who fed it to John in the from of leading questions.
A new thread for general discussion is much appreciated for those of us who check this site/ threads using mobile devices. When a thread reaches 200 posts it becomes quite a chore to scroll thru to the end.
Does anyone have a link to clear image of the photo JonW13 took of Trayvon’s body?
ABC News had the exclusive rights to publish the image, they paid JonW13 for it. I’d look there, but be advised they way they posted it on their website was a bit dark, and a photo editing program can get at it and dig out a lot more detail.
Most other news outlets crop the photo since it had a huge ABC EXCLUSIVE watermark / crawl on it.
There’s a version of THAT on my flickr. Sorry I dont have the url handy on my moble device.
Here is my saved version, lightened in photoshop to see more detail.
My guess is that he is facing south and possibly on his knees or kneeling down, but that’s a guess.
here is an abc news link that has the photo among a lot of others.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/slideshow/george-zimmerman-wife-shellie-zimmerman-arrested-16126443
scroll thru to see it. Not sure if this is the best version they have put on the web however.
W13 is a disgrace.
Okay now having said all that I see you are not asking for the bloody head photo but instead the pic of the body. Whoops. Sorry.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeandodge/sets/72157630994203862/with/7778036808/
This is all I’ve seen the accidental release of a zerox copy of the photo in very grainy b+w. Was there a public release of the actual jpeg? I thought the prosecution had managed to keep that sealed.
I’m just trying to figure out where Jon was standing when he took the pic of the body. I can’t really tell from your superimpositions…
Oh I can tell prett much where he stood to photograph the body. He’s on the sidewalk between the tan bag and the flashlight more or less. Look at the pillar in the background to judge the angle from JohnW6s patio. There’s a distinctive tuft of grass at the base visible in daytime evidence photos. A general diagonal runs from lens to tactical flashlight then over the body towards the patio pillar.
Damn, just writing that question, thinking about that poor dead kid and how wrong this whole thing is, makes my soul shiver.
Next point about the struggle. It is impossible to sit in a mounted position with both your hands on someones face and smother the person. You can’t do it when you are of equal weight and most definitely not when the person on the bottom is 50 lbs heavier. In GZ’s story Trayvon never trapped his arms. The position GZ describes Trayvon was in, would’ve meant Trayvon’s body was completely out of balance. Even a non-trained person would’ve been able to do a reversal. We also know that Trayvon was not trained in MMA, because even a first year practitioner would’ve used a 2 second window of being in that kind of dominant position, to apply a choke hold. The smothering of his mouth and nose is the silliest thing I’ve ever heard.
Perhaps someone who is 150 lbs will jump on George when he walks into the courtroom and surprise him. He’d probably fling them off like they were a silk scarf.
But if GZ was illegally trying to detain the teen, like he seems to have admitted when he claimed he asked JohnW6 for help in restraining the kid, it doesn’t matter if TM hit him or not. Trayvon was standing his ground against an (armed) aggressor and had the right to “go MMA” on him.
But yeah, I doubt that happened at all like that, or much of anything like GZ claims. I tend to think that GZ closed the gap on the pair, and invaded TM’s personal space in an effort to grab him, and this provoked a reaction that led to a bloody nose and some small scrapes on the face as GZ kept trying to hold on to the teen. They may have run into a bush or one of the trees near John’s back yard.
What’s obvious is that George has NOTHING to say about what he did with his arms up until the moment he drew his handgun and shot the teen, which is a ridiculous way to credibly portray the events. George knows enough about self-defense claims to refuse to create even the hint that he chased or detained the teen. We know he chased him, (he admits as much to the NEN operator, and he chased him with his car as well, as Dee Dee said) and I think the pattern of his lies continued, and a jury will surmise he tried to detain the teen as well. It fits the pattern of his lies. “When in doubt, George leaves it out.”
It seems that if we are to believe the MAJORITY of things GZ claims regarding the start of the fight, we need to believe that he fell to the ground when he was first hit in the nose. That tells me he was hit in the nose in JohnW6’s back yard, not up by the T.
The fight went to the ground somehow, we can say that much is true it seems but no one saw how and GZ is simply not credible. So guess what I think? I think many things are possible and what GZ claims is not possible. But I’d go with what amsterdam is saying and a jury probably would too.
Follow
following along… out of breath…. ughhhh
follow here alsob
Hey gang, I now have a complete version of the security cam video on Google Drive:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3xUz4HOqTiPelV2eGlyY0N1SU0/edit
I’d like y’all to take a look at it before I post it to YouTube to check for any mistakes, glaring omissions, or stuff that really ought to be changed before I put it up ‘for the whole world.’
There’s a fair bit more in there than the last version. Two more map animations, music in the old nine minute silence (just don’t have time to research and right an NRA, gun law, SYG, institutional racism in law enforcement backgrounder), etc.
Whonoze, I know you want it to feel like “real time” but a lot of people on Youtube are going to switch off if nothing happens for nine minutes.
So perhaps it should have an OPTIONAL button for jumping that, going to half a minute before the action re-starts, that half minute including an on-screen reminder that it is “now 8 1/2 minutes later”.
I also think using the time for comments on other issues would detract from the continuity of the main action. Again, people interested in “what happened” might not want to suffer through a lot of lecturing while waiting to get to the next “what happened” bit. You can’t count on them all having such a big attention span.
As I said, the ADHD crowd isn’t going to watch it anyway. Besides, since it says how long the ‘interlude’ is up front, people can just advance the cursor if they want. (And I have no idea how to make a Jump button.) And it’s not just wanting it to feel like real time for those who let it play through (it IS real time, without the quotes), I want it to feel like TRAYVON’s time. That’s how long (at a minimum) Trayvon was standing under the mail awning chatting to DeeDee before Zimmerman even left his home. That’s how much time Zimmerman is lying by, how temporally big his BS is.
Part of the problem people have understanding the events of the case is not being able to place them in time, understand how long something takes. So they crush some things together in their minds in ways that aren’t possible, and separate other things that aren’t possible either. This is what Zimmerman does in all his versions of his story. They’re not just lies about WHAT happened, they’re simply not possible in terms of WHEN and HOW LONG. So I have no intention of lending anyone the impression that there was some indefinite gap between Trayvon arriving at the mailboxes and GZ showing up, but basically one came after the other.
The nothing places everything else in context. You see that there’s very little traffic in RATL, that it’s peaceful and dull until Zimmerman starts his prowling….
Anyway, thanks for looking aussie. But what I need now is not a broad level content critique, but more like checking that the details are right, the narration and captions all make sense, and so on.
Whew, that has to be a lot of work. Only thing I can suggest is, it seems to me that you should keep the map up while DD is speaking, with a marker on TM’s house. The cctv’s are too complex for people to make much of them for the police arrivals, so the split screen is sufficient. I think that keeping the map up for viewers to think about while DD’s narrative plays is more engrossing.
Oh and since speculating is all we can do about things after GZ says he ran, perhaps shift the map so we can see the corridor with TM heading south. Just for the sake of estimation, keep him moving towards his house, so as to suggest what travel was possible. Then, since we know he didn’t go into his house, move his marker back north. Giving a general idea of how much ground could have been covered in the allotted time. Let the viewers imagine where GZ might have gone to intercept, by keeping him in one place or simply moving him over to RVC as he says.
Great work, it will be extremely informative.
@Whonoze. The video is great. Other than the approximations and speed of the moving GZ car animations, which I understand are of limited accuracy due to the skill of your animation craft, I’d say it’s a very accurate video. The voice-over is well written and smoothly delivered, and that adds a lot to the “reasonableness” of it all.
If I had my “druthers” I’d hope that you would include the map GZ drew on for Singleton and also the snippet of Dee Dee’s FIRST call with Crump that back up the notion of the “first bend” parking position and the car-to-pedestrian foot chase, and Id belabor the point a little since the car-to-pedestrian mini-chase is the only way to reconcile the vast majority of the evidence we have, most importantly the timing of the NEN call recording’s seeming actions of here he comes/ there he goes / now he’s running narrative in time. But in order to do that all justice you’d probably have to go into a rationale for the “long tail” and explain it all. Perhaps that is all best left for a different video.
The arrival of the second police car can be suggested ‘ theorized upon somewhat by light events if you include the “telltale flash” visible in the pool cam upper right corner. I’m not sure anyone cares when the second cop arrives but it does sever once again in a general fashion to back up the overall sync of the video with the recordings/ clock. You were probably right to leave that out, too but it’s there if anyone cares to argue the point. Same thing with the ambulance….
One slight correction I’d argue for is the final parking position you use is closer to the corner than GZ himself indicated when doing his “walk thru” on video. The real “FT according to George” position lines up with the gap between buildings, and not quite so far close to the second corner.
All of this is quite minor compared to the overall impact the whole video SHOULD have on what people can surmise. It presents the consensus conclusions of our little group wonderfully and I endorse it fully.
Nothing is ever going to please everyone 100%, so I say go ahead and mark me down as “willing to sign off fully” on it. Now, if you WANTED to put in the map GZ marked… I wouldn’t complain… ha ha. But maybe those elements are best left for a supporting video / follow up posting to YouTube.
The main gist of the video shows that what GZ claims happened, did not happen and that he lied to investigators deliberately about his movements on TTL seemingly in order to re-characterize the nature of his actions and motives. Perhaps a recap of what GZ claims happened should have been in there somewhere as a he said/she said comparison, but again that’s probably a different video. His own version is so contracdictory it would take a long time just to present the incomplete and inconsistent possibilities.
Again, thanks for the hard work and also thanks for the credit at the end. I’m flattered you think that anything I contributed helped make your video possible. Look forward to seeing it hit the masses… not that i think the masses can tell head from tails anymore on YouTube but one never knows. If someone from the prosecution would watch, that would be the best case scenario. Those videos are solid evidence IMO.
Where do I find the best copy of GZ’s sketch? I doubt I can put it in the timeline, though. Too much happening in the animation I don’t want to interupt.
Can’t use that Crump recording. Too unintelligible. Maybe I can revise the piece once Matt Gutman coughs up the goods. 🙂
OK. The video is up on YouTube:
I don’t know what else to say…
@Whonoze,
Along with the video being presented would you like to present a post along with the video. I can give you the email to JJ at Dothprotest…. if you are interested.
@Whonoze,
Your video will be featured on another site. Just giving you a heads up.
It’s OUR video, Loree.
@Whonoze,
Awww, Whonoze now I am all warm and fuzzy. Uni will get jealous. 🙂
THANK YOU FOR ALL THAT YOU DO!
much love,
Loree
Not to throw a wet towel on your warm fuzzy, but I meant “our” as in everyone who contributed to the security footage discussion on BCClist in particular, and also everyone on BCClist in general. So unitron’s included too. I thought about listing him in the credits as ‘resident skeptic’ but there wasn’t enough room :-).
@Whonoze,
Ok. Warm and fuzzy feeling gone. 😡
Just kidding! 😛
Uni will be pleased, no matter what he is about to post. 😀
I suppose the posting of this video onto YouTube will be an interesting sociological experiment, but I have to say my expectations are low – as in “lowest common denominator.” The vast majority of interested parties made their minds up long ago what they “believe” about this case I’m afraid. But time will tell. “There are none so blind as those who will not see.”
It’s at 388 views and four or five fairly innocuous comments thus far.
555 and holding 😦
1089 views. Whee!
@whonoze
EXCELLENT!!!
I also have it posted on the sidebar on DothProtest web site.
http://dothprotesttoomuch.com/
You are also listed on video links. 🙂
Not so much resident as “drive-by”
: – )
unitron
@Uni
😀
That’s right, unitron. Don’t admit to being part of the family here or Jeralyn might just disown you. 🙂
I’m a drive-by sceptic there as well.
She’s chided me a few times (unfairly in my opinion, but it’s her site and it seems anyone taking sides in this sees those who don’t as being on the other side, so I cut her some slack), but she’s never been nasty about it, and as for the other posters there, the ones who seemed to want to be disagreeable about disagreeing this past summer seem to have either mellowed or moved on.
I think I’m pretty much done posting over at Leatherman’s lounge, though, as it seems an exercise in futility.
Any day now I expect their elaborate conspiracy theories to expand to include the Illuminati or the Knights Templar or Zimmerman’s buddies tracking Martin for him with a surveillance drone.
unitron
@Uni
>>>Any day now I expect their elaborate conspiracy theories to expand to include the Illuminati or the Knights Templar or Zimmerman’s buddies tracking Martin for him with a surveillance drone.
LMAO!!! Ha!!
Mark O’mara files a long MOTION TO CONTINUE with the court, citing various complaints and “poor me” reasons why he can’t be ready by June.
Much discussion at Frederick Leatherman Blog, but I’m hoping the regulars here will take a look and weigh in.
Orando Sentinel already has a story up written with only O’Mara as the source cited and so of course it seems there is more to this than there actually is. (Who is Rene’s editor and how does he sleep at night?)
Among the many claims OMara is speading around is the idea that the state knows GPS data on TM’s phone that it isn’t sharing. I’m higjly doubtful about that claim for many reasons – one being that cell service was clearly spotty enough that TM kept getting his calls dropped and so I doubt that whatever data there MIGHT be isn’t going to be accurate enough to discern precise movements from anyway. But it’s a curious angle to consider, and as usual plenty to speculate about.
What about GZ’s phone? Would it be accurate enough to validate the South hypothesis?
On wikipedia, it says the marge of error is at best 50 meters. It is big but still accurate enough if, for example, GZ took a fast look outside the east entrance.
I’m more interested in who GZ called that night, esp who he was calling when he had his picture taken by JonW13. IMO the who cell phone GPS thing is red herring. If the prosecution found anything of use, they’d have included it in the discovery materials already. MOM’s gambit is to sow “reasonable doubt” in the form of CT via the treehouse, etc. It’s slime and he knows it, but that’s what he’s got to work with.
Of course by that token the clubhouse videos were “useless” to them as well. Go figure.
@WillisNewton
>>>>>I’m more interested in who GZ called that night, esp who he was calling when he had his picture taken by JonW13.
You and me both. I rack my brain on who could of been more important then calling Shellie first. You know what I just had a light bulb go off, maybe he wasn’t calling out someone was calling in, like the Sean the NeN operator.
IF Sean had called GZ back, that would also be recorded. And SURELY would have been released along with all the other tapes they were releasing???
@aussiekay
Good point. Ok Sean didn’t call him back. Back to the drawing board. 😕
Of course this is possible only if the data are recorded somewhere.
Stutzman’s most immediate editor is named Michelle Guido. Beat reporters like Stutzman are not independent of their editors. Anything Stutzman does, down to her horridly weak attribution style, is approved — if not dictated — by her editors. Newspapers have style sheets for these kind of things. Editors following standard old-school journalistic norms would scotch any single source story. So it’s not just Stutzman, but the Sentinal in general.
Exactly. Shoddy journalism such as this is a hallmark of the new corporate cost-cutting style. I’d liken the situation to sending out a company of soldiers without officers to oversee the mission, or with a single officer who was unfit to command. And then doing it again and again. This style of shoddy management is a very bad idea and leads to disaster sooner rather than later no mater what institution or industry it occurs in.
Stulzman’s work has been sub-par on many many occasions and the overall effect has been to continually misrepresent what is going on in a case that has drawn international attention to itself, and the Oralando Sentinel. She and her immediate superiors are “rotten apples” IMO but that sad fact is that they operate like a large percentage of the MSM does in this day and age.
To be clear: what this reporter wrote clearly isn’t accurate, and she’s allowing herself to be manipulated by a partisan party, the lead counsel in a murder case. Her newspaper is allowing this to happen and it’s pathetic by any previous standard of journalism.
I would not be surprised if the actual truth of the matter is that there is no GPS data whatsoever and that the entire matter is a complete fabrication on the part of MOM. When the reporting is this poor, it’s not worth considering until more information can be gathered.
There probably is GPS data but I think the prosecution must have given them just sheets of raw data. O’Mara is not requesting the “missing data” in his motion for specific data.
I don’t know how accurate gps data is, but at least it should be able to show when Trayvon arrived at the mail shed.
I’ve read that it can be as wide as +/- 50 feet error, all the way down to as little as +/- 4 feet.
@Everyone
States response to Omara:
Click to access states_response_to_dmtc.pdf
@Everyone FDLE response to O’mara
Click to access fdle_memo.pdf
shorter translation of state’s response: “oh please. That’s weak, pal, weak. See you in June, bring your wood screws because we’re gonna blow your doors completely off.”
@Willisnewton
LMBO! 😆 😆
This scene from Virginia Woolf kinda reminds me of Whonoze’s domestic hypothesis. Imagine Mama Zimmerman or Shellie as Virginia here getting angry with George…..
@WSI
OMG! HA!
correction: I mean Shellie as Martha (not Virginia)….. Never claimed to be a movie buff…..
What was Jeralyn Merritt’s response to the video whonoze posted to Youtube? I hear she had an interesting reaction, but I’m blocked from reading her site.
She blocked you from reading?
Here is her reaction:
Quote from: nomatter_nevermind on January 28, 2013, 05:40:02 AM
Some BccList contributors have a new video on YouTube. It’s 47 minutes. From a first viewing, I would say it is a valuable contribution to the discussion.
I disagree. It’s by a biased source. It is filled with assumptions and personal observations rather than fact, and bases its conclusions on suppositions. I didn’t watch the whole thing but the little I saw claims George didn’t pull in front of the clubhouse, based on the author’s subjective interpretation of the clubhouse videos.
I’ll ask again that you not bring material from biased internet speculators here.
It’s rather funny that she called Whonoze biased when I read that she had asked her readers each to send GZ $5 as a show of support after hearing he had gained 100 lbs, as she was feeling perhaps concerned about his mental state.
She’s a concealed-carry gun lovin’ libertarian/ progressive hypocrite but good at what she does, and I actually like the fact that she makes a great “foil” to put up evidence to. She moderates her site to keep off the racists, and for that alone she was able to preside over some very useful discussions when most other sites were worthless in a signal-to-noise ratio way.
She’s also a defense lawyer’s defense lawyer and all that goes with it. I think in her mind the system is more important than the individual, and in a way I agree with that. But her attitude regarding this case has many flaws, not the least of which is that she won’t admit when she is wrong. But that’s not a lawyer’s job, is it? They advocate for one side, and what she allows on HER site is her business.
That’s why I gave up on her a long time ago.
Hahaha… GZ has gained north of 1600 ounces in something less than 300 days? Send him 5 more dollars to turn into calories? She’s trying to help him commit suicide.
Thanks – I can read the TalkLeft site, but as a banned former member I can’t use the search feature so I couldn’t find her reaction. Reading it now, it seems like one of those non-denial denials that politicians use when they are caught red-handed in the details but the senate hearings or impeachment proceedings are just getting started.
I banged my head against the wall for too long on TalkLeft trying to talk sense into true believers and Jeralyn took personal offense to me when I insisted that GZ’s statements can’t be reconciled with the NEN call recording. No one over coherently answered my question “where was GZ when the following exchange took place?”
Call taker: That’s the clubhouse, do you know what the—he’s near the clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he’s coming towards me.
I suppose i was a bit stubborn about it, but the fact remains that no one ever had a credible answer that went along with the idea that GZ told investigators a true narrative. To her, that means I am “biased” and engage in “speculation” too much.
After I was banned, that’s when I came over to bcclist, and I’ve not bothered to check TalkLeft much since then.
Eleven photos from the R@TL area have been posted to flickr by a confederate of a blogger.
The provenance of the photos trace back to TalkLeft, and I think the people associated with them are trying to speculate about the route TM took into the area, and possibly make assumptions about the timeline as well but they are new and I know everyone here likes to see whatever is new.
These pictures are being posted by “nomatter_nevermind” who posts at TalkLeft and sometimes corresponds with me on flickr. I respect his objectivity. We don’t always agree, but I respect his objectivity. He’s as close to a neutral person I’ve met and is a stickler for facts and citing sources. He claims to have not yet made up his mind on the guilt or innocence of Zimmerman, and that’s just about the only thing he says that I have a hard time believing. But I can’t disprove it, and that’s how it goes.
Only a few of the pictures is of much direct interest to me, but others are making me curious what the theory is behind them. I’d be curious to see other’s opinion about these photos.
I find particularly interesting the two cars drew by GZ. It is like a freudian slip. I am also amazed with Jeralyn Merritt’s response. I don’t know her, but she seems to have some importance. She wants facts! What the hell? Camera recording are not facts?
BccList contains much good information but it is hard to follow. Not enough time.
Well, the ‘unbiased’ Jeralyn made her conclusions about Whonoze’s video after not seeing it all, and then based on what little she had seen and calling it subjective. Of course, if you look at 10 seconds of the video and see a couple of flickering lights, you’d say, nope can’t prove that’s GZ’s truck. But given the time frame and light traffic at that time period, it’s basic deduction my dear watson! It’s just that not everyone has the time to confirm it all. I myself have not spent 100 hours on this, but once Whonoze had put together a preliminary video a few months ago, it was clear to me what COULD be seen in the security videos. Even with the 1 frame per second capture rate, you CAN”T miss a car going past the clubhouse and you CAN”T miss a car parking at the spot where GZ said he did. I think the prosecution could present at least that bit of information as fact, and I would love to see how the defense would rebut that. And then we would get to laugh our butts off if the answer includes Attention Deficit Disorder.
Hmmm..I wonder what evidentiary value that picture of Jennifer Aniston has to the case?? 🙂
Yes, how did that get in there?
One more mystery that may never be solved.
I don’t post there. It is the only pro GZ site I read on occasion. I think the photos are from the neighbouring community showing an alternative route Trayvon may have taken.
That’s a great link, Willis. On p 3 – 5 they have all the hand-drawn sketches from all the witnesses, too. Useful. But there’s a rather heavy reliance on extracts from videos by diwitaman.
The 1/31/13 photos are a set now.
They were taken by AghastInFl. He was modest about me crediting him on the Flickr site, but it’s not a secret.
He visited the site because discussion at TalkLeft had raised some questions about it. I suggested he take some pictures and offered to host them. He liked the idea and asked me for suggestions.
The pictures have no overarching purpose or theme. They were chosen to shed light on a few different issues. The descriptions I’ve added explain most of them.
I didn’t discuss the significance of a camera covering the back lot of the 7-11, but that’s another non-secret.
There is one that I don’t understand. I like it. It’s haunting. When Trayvon Martin set foot on that road, he was almost fifteen minutes into the last hour of his life.
Why AIF wanted a photo of that view I don’t know. When he sent me the pictures, the info that went with that one had something about counting utility poles that I didn’t understand. I’ll ask him, next time we discuss the project.
Thanks for the kind words. I wish you would come back to TalkLeft. I think Jeralyn would agree if you asked her.
I almost forgot. What on earth is ‘a confederate of a blogger’?
I would hate to be charged with aiding and abetting felony blogging.
I’ve been sending you Flickr messages in the past few days. Not that I mind you taking your time responding. But now I find you musing about things you might have asked me. I’m thinking Flickr messaging may not be working between us.
Good to see you here NMNM. We like sticklers for facts and sources. And skeptics. (We ❤ unitron 🙂 )
@nomatter0nevermind
Welcome!
I love your link.
Great pictures!
Thanks for the welcome, and to blushedbrow also.
I’m glad some folks here like my Flickr page. I think you’ll get more from browsing the sets than the photostream.
The photostream is just the raw material for the sets. It’s everything, in the chronological order the photos were uploaded. The sets group the photos logically, showing their relationships to one another and the ideas they express or illustrate.
Here’s a new link for the 1/31/13 photos.
I had to redo the set because of a software glitch.
AghastInFl took some more yesterday. I hope to have them all titled, uploaded, and collected into a set before the day is over. Adding descriptions will take another day or so.
Ideas for what to photograph are being generated by AIF himself, by me, and by other posters at TalkLeft. As I said before, there is no unifying theme. We’re just taking advantage of the fact that one of us has access to the site, to get pictures that shed light on various questions that have come up.
@Loree, I just read over on the other blog that you have a copy of the Osterman book. I would just caution you about posting more than a paragraph of it anywhere at at time. It is copyrighted and posting more than a couple of sentences is not wise. I looked this up awhile back when I was interested in the book and was reporting on it. People are allowed to cite limited quotes on it for the purpose of reviews, which is essentially what we are doing by blogging about it. Anymore than that would be an infringement of copyright laws. Just FYI…..
…….however, it doesn’t meant that you can’t give an extensive explanation of what was written in the book. Just don’t directly post large chunks of it…..
@WSI,
Ok so I can take a paragraph and write what I think he is talking about or and connect it to evidence?
Exactly, that’s ok. I was just looking out for you because you never can be too paranoid with this stuff. It’s not that I think the Ostermans would go after a blogger, but you never know with the creepy Z team treepers and RZ Jr…..
@WSI
You are so right!!!
@WSI
Thank YOU!!! God imagine that! my face in the news for posting Ostermans book. He should pay me! But good looking out! I will refrain from that!
Don’t worry about copyright. Copyright holders only sue people with deep pockets, or pirates who are truly ripping them off in toto. Osterman doesn’t have the financial resources to pursue IP litigation, anyway. Also, any quote that fits into a blog post passes the four-point Fair Use test…
@Whonoze
Thank you, Whonoze. I will be retaining your services as a lawyer if I get sued. 🙂
I agree that copyright holders rarely sue and normally it would only make sense to go after people with money. This isn’t a normal case. I had said that Osterman wouldn’t think or want to do the litigatin’ himself. But the extreme Z team people may want to make a blogger’s life hell. All they’d have to do is pay a nickle and dime lawyer to draw up a notice of infringement and slap that on the internet and it’ll go viral. They don’t have to take it all the way to court to make your life uncomfortable. Regarding the 4 point test of fair use law, there isn’t a hard set rule of how much is allowable as it relates to the impact on the full work. Using how much you can fit into a wordpress blogpost is also not a good rule of thumb because I think you can go up to a couple of thousand words. From Wikipedia (I’m such a sophisticated researcher aren’t I?)
“In 1985, the US Supreme Court held that a news article’s quotation of approximately 300 words from former President Gerald Ford’s 200,000 word memoir was sufficient to constitute an infringement of the exclusive publication right in the work.[41] ”
I had only posted my concern when there was talk that whole chapters were going to be posted. Again, I would err on the side of caution, if only to preserve one’s sanity.
Not true, you can use as much as you need to make your point under “fair use”. As long as what you are posting is free there can be no damages assessed. Besides MO would look like a fool in front of a jury, with a book that sold less than 30 copies all told, trying to claim that his “valuable work” was being stolen, lol.
@Lonnie,
LOL!
True that the work is not valuable but it is still being sold for profit, and technically, a blogger’s posting of it for free would prevent the author from making money on it (even if it’s pennies). I don’t think it matters that they’ve only sold a handful of books so far. BTW, MO hasn’t done a good job of NOT looking like a fool so far, anyway, has he?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use
True, true and true, and yet, one must remember that despite it all, if it goes to court as a case to be tried, there is going to be a need to establish a quantitative “damage”. Where the damages are only going to amount to fractions of a cent, and cash to defray any assessed damages… Well, there aren’t many attorney’s who are going to be very excited about such affairs. They’re going to ask a rather large up front retainer, knowing how long these cases take to decide. In which case, MO’s best bet would be to sue for one dollar and a cease and desist order, rather than going for monetary damages of more than a pecuniary nature. In which case you simply hand over the dollar and sign the consent.
@WSI
Here is some tidbits I find of interest. Osterman says that his cell phone rang about 7:30.
That both him and and his wife were home by six. She was at her Dad’s with her daughter during the day. . Mark was working also. On a Sunday? Anyway, I think he got there so quick because from what he writes, it is only a 4 min drive to his house to the retreat. He also states that he even has a front door key to GZ house. He said sometimes he would bike, or even walk there because it was that close.
Shellie and he arrived in separate vehicles. He drives a 2 door Ford truck and a Ford Fusion. He didn’t describe her car. But he was specific about his vehicles.
Now, I really don’t think that his wife would lie about where she was at during the day. Osterman, hmmm employee records would confrim if he was indeed at work that day. He aslo states that he and his wife were walking their dogs at the time of Shellies call. so does that rule out Osterman and Sondra at being at the retreat?
Shellie was supposedly at her Dad’s house and was there at the gate before Mark, so Dad must not live far. He did say she swiped her card to get in. Records we need more records!!!!
Air marshalls don’t stick to a 9-5 monday thru friday schedule, so working on a Sunday is not unusual. It did strike me as odd that he made a point of recounting the roads that he took (rhinehart, etc) to get to RATL and the points about how close he lives from there, etc. You can take it one of two ways. He must have been aware of speculations about his involvement and was either setting the record straight, or for those who believe in a conspiracy, was trying really hard to cover his butt. I personally don’t believe that he was involved in anything before hand, even as a tipster. After the fact, my suspicions of him go only so far as influencing the officers that night. Although he seemed to be throwing his friends in blue under the bus by saying that they told him at scene that everything looked “clean”. That is, the cops had already made up minds that GZ was an upstanding citizen who was exercising self-defense against an unknown thug BEFORE Osterman got there. Maybe so, but it didn’t hurt GZ one bit to have a former SPD officer show up, did it? There was no mention of any OTHER conversation that Osterman had with the SPD that night. Do you really think he hung around the station just to hold Shellie’s hand all night? Oh yeah, and there’s that whole business of walking the dogs, packing suitcases and cleaning up dog vomit, but no mention of how GZ’s truck left the scene.
Oh, Osterman had no problem with giving details about himself and his family, but it would not of course have been wise of him to describe Shellie’s car.
The complex was locked down at 7:30. Austin’s mom had to leave her car outside the complex and walk to her house.
Did she try both front and back gates?
Did anyone else try the one she didn’t?
How did Osterman get in?
I know it’s much more likely than not that they’d close down both if they closed down either, but I’m reluctant to take anything for granted concerning this case.
unitron
As I understand it, Osterman claims that he drafted in behind Shelly when she opened the back gate with her card. According to the story, although times aren’t given, it would have had to be sometime later than 7:30pm.
I mentally speculate that, if that’s not the truth and she and MO were on the inside. Then it makes sense that GZ would loudly ask someone to call his wife. That way he could go on record of having her advised early, in time to cover her seemingly early arrival.
I think so because, otherwise why bother to make such a public announcement? He had his phone, he could have called her himself and probably would. Obviously he did call someone himself. So, who was more important to notify than his wife?
Besides, just looking at their stories MO and SZ, it seems hardly likely they’d coincidentally be in position to easily meet at the back gate so quickly. So, there’s another bit of lore that seems just a little to “fortunate”. In a saga where most “fortunate” things that coincidentally appear to happen at the right time, place, or under the right conditions, all have turned out to be due to GZ lies. My best guess is that these fortunate occurrences were also falsified.
We really need their phone logs.
“We really need their phone logs.”
I’d be curious to see those, but are you saying that Shellie used her card to walk in or drive in?
unitron
@Uni
Per Osterman’s book: (not verbatim)
She swiped her resident card to get in, I followed her through the gate in my car.
Curious.
Wasn’t it the mother of the kid with the runaway dog who had to leave her car at the front gate and walk in because the police had it locked down?
Maybe some gates are more equal than others.
unitron
@Uni
Curious indeed. Lonnie has me very curious about the back gate. Was it locked, unlocked?
IIRC, Cheryl Brown was referring to the front gate as well as Osterman. I will double check the book, though.
They drove in behind one another.
I believe what I read was represented as coming from Osterman’s book. Shelly and Osterman would both have been driving separate vehicles.
@Lonnie
Yes. Two vehicles. He said she was already at the gate when he arrived behind her in his car.
Isn’t that yet another happy coincidence? How many more will we have to swallow to believe that GZ acted alone? Osterman just happens to arrive in time to “draft” in behind Shelly. Let’s see, that means that he didn’t have to use his card or code, right? I mean, if GZ gave MO keys to his house, he certainly would not have kept the code from him.
So, MO could have just as easily come in on his own, right? No need to wait for Shelly. But, if he was already inside, then this little bit of theater provides cover for that. Heck, both Shelly and MO may have already been inside. Then “Call my wife and tell her [what she and Osterman already knows[ that I just killed someone else”. Now everybody knows to expect his wife to show up real soon, because she’s been told what she already knows? How can we tell the difference? Is that why the SPD failed to secure the back gate? So that people could come and go and maybe cohorts could create alibis? Inquiring minds want to know.
Whoppers.
If it takes him 4 mins he must be breaking the speed limit.
Phone could have rung any number of times, was that supposedly the call from Shellie at 7.30? what is “about”????
They were walking the dogs. So to the 4 minutes driving add the time to WALK home with the dogs, find keys, get in car. Phone rang about 7.30 did it? and he got there while GZ was still in the cruiser getting first aid for his life-theatening injuries…….and they left there about 7.35 ??? 7.40? and he could drive in that late, when the gate was barred?
Forget swiping the card (oh, I see, he means she met him in her car outside and swiped the card, that is how he got in after the gates were shut, I see)…. yeah except the cops were not letting anyone in.
And then easy enough to tell roughly where the “scene” was, I suppose, except flashing red and blue on all sides by then, find a place to park among all the emergency vehicles, and then walk down?
The card swipe is too much detail. The kind of extra detail someone fibbing might put in to make it sound more real.
Oh and why would SZ be at her dad’s house, if they’d just finished mentoring some kids and ALWAYS go shopping on Sunday nights? Someone doesn’t have their stories right.
=====All credit to Shellie for keeping her mouth shut this entire time. But time she made a plea deal and started talking.=====
@Whonoze
Definitely love our resident skeptic, Unitron.
Where is the Uni?
Lurking about, no doubt. 🙂
Am I reading this right, no more continuances.? Set for Feb 19th @ 1:30 for Shellie.
http://www.seminoleclerk.org/CriminalDocket/case_detail.jsp?CaseNo=592012CF001792A
Looks like it. Previously, if there was a court date set, it would always be tacked onto one of GZ’s dates, but GZ doesn’t seem to have a court date other than Feb 5th right now, so I guess it’s time to face the music for Shellie.
@WSI
Well its a about time. Geez I thought they would never get a court date down.
You know many people have demonized her along with GZ, but I kinda feel really sorry for her and even the rest of the family (except maybe for Jr) for being dragged into this mess. Sure, she lied about the money, but we all know the mastermind (ok, I know that’s kind of an oxymoronic description) was GZ. I hope the court finds her guilty of a misdemeanor only so that the jury of GZ’s case doesn’t think that he can be absolved of all sin in that department, but she can still recover from it and move on with her life.
@WSI
I don’t demonize her.Maybe make some humorous posts, but nothing bad like calling her names. It not her fault that she is married to the fool that he is. She is caught up in the vortex of GZ.
My take on the family is this:
The father, smallminded.
The mother, listening to her interview on El Punto, she is bad news.
The sister, creepy relationship with brother.
The brother, they are not enough keys on the keyboard to describe him.
They all could of handled this differently. I think people would of gave them the benefit of doubt, if they didn’t hande themselves the way they have.
The only one who has been smart about it is Shellie, she has stayed out of the media.
I have seen opposite family members where their loved one killed someone and the accused family actually reaches out and tells them how sorry they are for what happened. Sometimes even hugs them, and cries with them for all the misery that person created.
They have not done anything close to that.
I know you don’t demonize Shellie, you’re just too nice. I just cringe everytime I see her referred to as ShelLie elsewhere. Ha, and I like you’re way of refraining from characterizing Jr. He’s in a class all by himself, isn’t he? As for family members not reaching out, GZ was ordered not to have contact either directly or indirectly, so having family members say or do anything would be in violation. Not that I believe that without the order that they would necessarily go and hug Tracy and Sabrina. I think the travesty is that they have been poisoned by the likes of the nuthouse, without which they may still have some real emotion and compassion for the Martin/Fulton family. They’re still feeling like victims in this case, although they don’t realize they’re not being victimized by the media, not the New Black Panthers, not Al Sharpton….just their own flesh and blood, dear ole Georgie.
@WSI
Yes, Jr. is in a class without class. 🙂
To the family not reaching out, I happen to disagree, sweetie. I think while the father, made his first interview on TV,I think it should of went something like this, “I love my son. I wasn’t there but he said he was in a life or death struggle. I can only imagine the pain and sorrow that my son’s actions has caused. But I am his father, so I must stand with him regardless of the outcome. But again I want to reiterate my condolences to the family, and I hope that justice will prevail no matter what happens, a life was lost and for that I am truly sorry for what my son has done.
Gz was ordered not to have any direct or any indirectly, you are correct, but he did it anyway on Hannity.
The family being poisoned by the CTH. Nope. Have to respectfully disagree. They have their own free will, their own brains, their own feelings. They should of never aligned themselves wtih them, because it condemns them to their way of thinking. Which we all know what their thinking is. Such as, He deserved it. He should of answered questions, etc etc.
I agree with you that they feel as tough they are being victimized. I do not condone the actions of the NBPP. They were idiots, all four of them. The Martin/Fulton family expressed that they wanted no violence, just an arrest. I for one didn’t take their stupid claim of Dead or Alive, but I can see how the family would be scared. All in all, you are right it is their own blood, George that has turned their lives and the lives of Trayvon’s family upside down. He alone is responsible. Not Shellie, not the media, not us, just him.
Go ahead and call GZ a “mastermind”, as we all know that mastermind is a relative term! LOL. MOE LARRY AND CURLY, MOE was the MASTERMIND! That wasn’t saying much now was it? 😀
A blogger who goes by Malisha is writing over at leatherman law blog about a HOA meeting where SPD Chief Bill Lee escorted a tenant or homeowner out of the building because he was complaining about GZ’s armed “patrols.” She says the meeting was on March 1st and in her opinion the meeting was called not to get information to the police, but to calm the waters and help the HOA deal with adverse publicity that might threaten property values.
I have read Malisha’s posts for quite some time and she seems to have done a fair amount of digging, and isn’t afraid to make phone calls and file FOIA requests as well. Does anyone here know her better than I and care to make an assessment on her veracity and reliability for accurate information? I think she may have a lot of insights into the “case” and wanted to know more about her discoveries, conclusions etc but am weary of putting weight into her ideas until I know more about her reputation as a blogger/ investigator.
@WillisNewton,
That subject was discussed sometime ago. We all have pretty much have the same information about that person being escorted out of that HOA meeting. I have tried contacting a person who lives/lived in the neighborhood via facebook because his name appeared in an article, regarding if they knew the person and if he was willing to share that person’s name. He has never responded. She is more then willing to acquire information via FOIA when money allows her to. She has been around for awhile. Her insights seem to be very good. I personally don’t “know her”, but I can vouch for her to a certain extent. Hope that helps.
She’s an ACE blogger!
W1 told Serino that she came forward because of the meeting. She hadn’t before because she thought she didn’t see anything important.
Jeralyn Merritt and the Treehouse crowd think W1 and W2 are unreliable and ‘biased’ against GZ because W1 and W2 are African-American.
IMO all eyewitnesses are unreliable to a certain degree, and this case is no different. GZ is a “witness” in a sense and you can see how reliable he is….
It’s just the nature of the game that people see one thing and recall another, especially in times of stress or emotion. Interpreting people’s reliability and honesty is an impossible job to do right 100% of the time. But a jury and a trial is one of the best ways to TRY.
GZ is obviously a liar, and his story is demonstrably false at the start. At the end, it’s not really possible to say with all certainty that he’s lying but there are plenty of indications that he is.
What anyone else says IMO is a whole lot less important to worry about, with the exception of what is said and heard on 911 calls. These help establish a timeline that shows GZ pushed a false narrative to SPD investigators and established a pattern to his lies that can be reasonably shown to extend into the missing minutes and the physical struggle.
Circumstantial evidence also shows he is likely not telling the truth.
Whatever W1, 2, 6, 18 etc saw and heard in the end will matter little I feel. George “cooked his own goose” by telling lies. Whatever happened, it won’t be believed if he says it happened that way.
Are you saying that W1 is the one who was escorted from the HOA meeting? I’m sorry if I missed that somehow. I’ve mostly concentrated on things that happened leading up to the missing minutes. After the shooting it’s all such a giant mess. And the actual reporting of incidents such as this have been piecemeal and shoddy for the most part.
The machinations of the city council and mayor are another example of what hash these Floridians are making of society. The whole Zimmerman family is another concentric circle of “sick sad world” confirmation stories.
As for Jeralyn Merrit, she claims W2 “recanted” her story of seeing a two person foot chase. I contend that if you put W2 under oath and played her recording of what she told Serino about seeing two people chasing one another she’d not take it back. She may have backed off some of that story in later interviews because she realized she was about to become the star witness for the prosecution and given the racial climate, decided it was not a role she was anxious to play. Jeralyn sees what she wants to see and if admittedly biased in favor of the defense side of the case – she is a criminal defense attorney and one has to take into account all that goes with that. She helped defend the OKC bomber, and I think that is admirable in a certain way but it’s not a role I’d care to play as a career choice personally. She has to rationalize her defense of obvious loser types every day. It’s how our great system works. But only a fool would take her word as unbiased to a fault. She’s paid to be based to and BEYOND a fault. It’s her duty to be that way. Don’t get taken in by it, would be my advice to anyone who reads her blog. She’s not right, and I think she knows it. She’s merely advocating for a cause.
Reposted from the Lounge…..
The Channel 13 news site will also have a live chat link and that site is:
http://www.cfnews13.com/chat.html
they have it all set to go for the Fogen’s case and it does start at 9am
Motion to delay the trial DENIED. Unsure about Crump being deposed. The judge IMO delayed that decision pending the news from Crump’s lawyer that he will submit a 15 page report on how he came to find and interview W8/Dee Dee.
Cell phone records were mentioned in passing and the judge seemed to order that the chain of evidence be given to the defense, but she didn’t specifically order the state to provide anything further.
Looks like a total shutdown for MOM, and it could be his excuse / moment to declare GZ indigent and remove himself from the case “in protest” aka “git while the gittin’ is good.” He’s got enough material to sell a book deal and get a large advance and he can also make the claim that “he would have won the case if, blah blah” and no one will be able to say for certain.
GZ looked overweight and bewildered, with a failed attempt to part his hair that ended up looking like a faux-hawk. His family didn’t seem to be present, nor his wife. West and MOM turned their back on GZ at the conclusion and left without saying much of anything. MOM seemed to have a slight smile on his face leaving me to think he’s really going to drop his client, but anything is possible….
Good summary. I have predicted that O’mara will be out by March. It seems it might be sooner.
Well, apparently, O’Mara’s wife has had enough (He offered her as an expert witness to testify to the court that no one would like for this trial to be over more than he does, but that his motion to continue is due to reasons out of his control, yadda yadda yadda…..). Whatcha gonna do when the wife ain’t happy?
That would be a good excuse.
I had way too much coffee and I am hyped up. I need food!
http://www.wesh.com/news/central-florida/trayvon-martin-extended-coverage/Group-sings-Happy-Birthday-to-Trayvon-Martin/-/14266478/18411936/-/ufp4yaz/-/index.html?absolute=true
For those who missed the hearing….
http://www.youtube.com/user/stateoftheinternet
GZ’s growing his hair out, no more military buzz cut. He’s still putting on the biological maximum of 6 oz per day. He doesn’t seem to realize just how far gone his defense is. But gee, they had 300k to spend on the defense and they squandered it away on nothing. Now they’ve got zilch and need money for experts. Now maybe GZ realizes that all that fantasy about security was just a waste of valuable funds. Oh well, tick tock!
@lonnie
Tick Tock Indeed! The hearing was a big time lost for him, and it seems that this will be the pattern from now on til trial. He doesn’t have that same aura of assuredness that he had before. I think gz understands body language and voice levels better then he understands the proceedings, and I and you know that O’mara and West did not sound confident. Blackwell and BDLR sounded like lawyers, his didn’t. He also recognized that the Judge was quite annoyed with his lawyers, but nothing that he could use to get her off the case. He looks for shitake like that.
At some point in time MOM and GZ are going to have to realize that facts will control this case. It was foolish in the extreme, for MOM to plead to the court that he hasn’t any experts. The courts are full of people accused of crimes, who haven’t the funds to hire experts or even post bail. Yet they go to trial without funds and/or any experts. MOM should have realized this and advised his client, before the money was spent on external foolishness, such as a false attempt to make it appear that the defendant was under siege from blacks.
Refusal to follow the advice of the very professionals they hired to provide their security services, probably means they would not have followed the advice of any experts either, had they bothered to hire any. Now they whine that they have no experts, but whose fault is that? |||=> Tick Tock! <-|||
@Lonnie
Yep. At first I thought O’mara was a decent, knowledgeable lawyer. He was pretty good at the first bond hearing. The theatrics of blowing up the probable cause affadivit was pretty good theater. I think he thought that was how it would be, all show. He and his client didn’t realized until it was too late that real work and experts were needed. Like the Prof said, he wasn’t ready for prime time.
I knew a few lawyers who handled death penalty cases. Once they found out that GZ had raised money and lied to the court about it, they’d have withdrawn. Think about it, you’re struggling to keep your faith in your client then BOOM, he hits you with a bout of brazen lying in court. Your opinion of your client would not then become “circumspect” at the least? You wouldn’t be fighting a serious conflict?
It’s not like the matter would be for another lawyer, who could tell him/her self that they weren’t there and that there may have been things that make the picture not quite what the reports and the record make it appear. MOM doesn’t have that kind of buffer, he observed the raw event play out in real time. So, how does he come by the ability to comfortably ignore his clients amazing lack of credibility?
==========================================
Justice for Trayvon is Coming: |||=> Tick Tock! <-|||
==========================================
No.
Why would you think that? I quoted the part of your comment I was responding to.
‘[I]n her opinion the meeting was called not to get information to the police, but to calm the waters and help the HOA deal with adverse publicity that might threaten property values.’
I wouldn’t doubt that the meeting had multiple purposes, but I think encouraging potential witnesses to come forward was one of them. I doubt that happened accidentally.
As for the person escorted out, I don’t know anything about that. I don’t understand why it is supposed to be important.
In lawyer-speak, Mr. Crump’s affadavit confirms what I’ve said all along: that Matt Gutman has an intelligible recording of the Crump/W8 interview.
“24. While I believe Mr. Gutman and his assistant may also have had a recording device of their own present with them in the room during some or all of the Interview, I have no knowledge as to whether that device was ever successfully used to record any portion of the Interview [5]”
footnote 5:
“I did not provide a copy of the Recording to Mr. Gutman, his assistant or anyone else affiliated with ABC, not did I otherwise make the Recorder available to them so they could make a copy.”
Well if Atty. Crump didn’t give a copy to Gutman, Gutman’s device must have been recording successfully, since ABC played soundbites from the interview as part of several news stories. If Crump has no knowledge of it I guess he must watch Fox news instead of ABC… 🙂
Oh, right, he’s an NBC guy… 😀
Oh I know, whonoze. MOM’s pretending that Crump has secret powers over ABC news or something. How stupid is all this? Perhaps ABC news is so poor that it cannot afford a tape recorder of its own and has to rent them from lawyers. Yeah that’s the ticket.
Jeralyn Merritt has one of the best legal blogs on the internet. The associated forum is by far the best place to discuss the Zimmerman case.
I do read the blog on occasion. It is well organized and in general people stick to the facts. The problem I have with the blog is that Dee Dee’s statements are considered not to be truthfull even where independent evidence or witness accounts back her up. And GZ’s statements are treated as the truth, even when the evidence, witness accounts and GZ’s own statements show that not to be the case.
Jeralyn doesn’t claim to be unbiased. It’s just that sometimes she uses the word ‘biased’ to mean biased in the opposite direction from herself. I called her on that here.
She took it graciously. I haven’t heard a word from her about it.
@ nomatter, hey, glad to see you here. When I wrote ” the ‘unbiased’ Jeralyn”, that was kind of a reference to that very post you mentioned. I had read her response to Whonoze’s video and also your response to her about it. I was glad to see you bringing a sense of reason and balance to that blog.
However, I’ve read her blog less than a handful of times so I don’t really know her commentary history, except from what I hear from others. I would have to agree with all who say that since it’s her blog, she has a right to run it the way she wants. No one can be totally unbiased at this point since we’ve all tended to lean one way or the other. The BCClist and Whonoze blog contributors have decided that GZ is guilty of SOMETHING (of manslaughter, of murder 2, of murder 1, of just being plain idiotic, of being overzealous, etc), so comments that run counter will likely be challenged but we’re a civil bunch, for the most part. We’ve managed to kept most of the crazies away (and by crazies, I actually mean those on both sides) by mainly focusing on debunking GZ’s inconsistent statements and trying to figure out what happened that night. That’s a great feat, if you think about it, since BCCList isn’t moderated. The crazies don’t actually have enough attention span to stay for long.
Of course, you’ll find jabs, jokes and sarcasm on these blogs to keep things light, but unless you’re emotionally married to the defendant and company, then you should find the conversations useful “no matter” your perspective. I also look forward to hearing your insights, even if I might end up trashing them, but I’ll do so respectfully, of course :).
So does anyone care to hazard a guess as to what exactly this hearing means in terms of “when do we see cell phone GPS data?”
As I understand it, the state must provide a chain of custody record to the defense, but only if and when that document reveals that there is outstanding materials can the defense ask specifically for those elements of the record, if they even exist.
Is this right?
AFAIK, the State has not entered any of TM’s phone data (aside from the phone company call records) as discovery. My take from what BDLR got from sending the phone to California was minimal and probably of no value which is why they didn’t make it evidence. When it was sent to Cellebrite in New Jersey just a few weeks ago, that was when, as O’Mara claimed, there was a substantial amount of information obtained. From that, I have to assume that either a report was made and the state determined there was no evidentiary value to it for them (and presumably to the defense), or that a full report/analysis is still pending. I tend to think that it’s the latter. That is, i’m guessing Cellebrite gave them raw GPS data, but somebody has to put it together. The “missing data” from Feb. 26 is curious. If indeed that data was lost, then the state has nothing useful for its side. If the state is not considering it discovery or Brady material, then we’d have to wait and see what the defense digs up. Believe me, if they don’t find anything, we’ll get to hear from now until the trial “Something’s afoot!”, which is akin to the “black hole surrounding Witness 8” as they put it today.
BdlR briefly said something about a gap in information but that that was resolved. I can’t say for sure this was about the missing GPS data. It seems neither party wants to discuss it in public.
What ever it is the data shows, the defense doesn’t appear happy with it. Their concern seems to focus on the chain of custody of the phone and how the data was obtained.
I don’t care about the Treehouse crowd. Regarding Jeralyn, I would very much like to know what evidence supports this claim.
I wasn’t aware that W-1 and W-2 are AA.
W-2 is unreliable.
W-1 told Serino, of her sister: ‘I mean, we talked about, we talked about it. But I don’t know, I don’t know what she saw.’
Why didn’t W-1 think she knew what her sister saw, after talking with her about the events? Maybe W-2 had already given her sister two or three different stories.
The first witness in the audio you were linking to was w1. She must have been mislabeled, but that is w1’s testimony. In a later interview w1 mentions she heard running too, but doesn’t mention seeing anyone.
W2 saw/heard someone when she was looking out the window of the back bedroom, her sister’s bedroom. She then walked towards the front of the house. While in the hall she heard someone calling Yo or no. After she entered her own bedroom, the one in the front, she heard the shot. She could not immediately identify where the sound came from or what caused the sound. She looked outside her own bedroom window at the front of the house, but didn’t see anything. She never saw any fighting.
They are as reliable as the other eyewitnesses that only saw a glimpse. Selma and w18 are more reliable because they were watching for a longer period. The brain fills in gaps. That is one of the problems with eyewitnesses. Both Selma and w18 were able to tell when in the timeline they saw something. W18 freaked out after she realized someone was shot.
John describes a change of the positioning of the bodies struggling in his backyard that is physically impossible. You can check his drawing. That can only happen if both persons wanted to accomplish that change of position or in a reversal where the person at the bottom manages to roll the other person from top to bottom position.
I also think that it is more likely they saw and heard Austin, who was in that spot at the that time when they heard running feet.
NMNM:
Some photos of RATL I’d like to see.
1. A CU of the broken utility/sprinkler(??) cover in John’s back yard.
2. Night shots showing the lighting in front of the clubhouse and under the mail awning.
3. Night shots taken down the cut-trough sidewalk from both ends, looking at the opposite ends, with no flash or additional lighting. (The idea being to see if figures at the T would be silhouetted against the ambient light coming from TTL and/or RVC…)
4. (Perhaps not possible…) A daytime shot taken from inside the clubhouse, standing right under the game room camera, looking out the big window, exposed for the EXTERIOR, preferably with a car visible in the parking lot.
Did you see this video made by Dave?
Taffe takes Dave inside the clubhouse. You can see the game room camera and the view of the window.
Great video. Thanks for posting.
The route Taaffe identified as the shortest was pointed out to me by a commenter on my Flickr page. I checked on Google Earth, and I also found it to be shorter than any of the other routes I compared.
It is a great video. That video disqualified Taffe of any involvement to me. He pointed out the obvious. I don’t think Trayvon entered the complex thru the cut-through near Taffe’s.
You can do me a favor. I don’t have a user id on Talk Left and registration has been disabled. But I’ve been reading the clubhouse comments and Diawataman is missing some information.
In Smith’s narrative in the policereport, he writes that after he arrived at the complex, he was dispatched to w3’s address on TTL. You can find that dispatch information in the 911 logs in the 7th supp. in the log that was opened for W3. Before he got out of the car he was dispatched to W19’s address on RVC. The dispatch and arrival times coincide with the time W3 says she can see an officer now. W3 had moved from the upstairs room in the back of her house to the upstairs room in the front, facing TTL to call 911.
We had an extensive discussion after we found the report stating that the video was 18 min off. We tried the 6:48 time, but everything seemed out of synch.
We then went back to the 911 logs and the police report to find information about Ayala and Raimondo. Ayala responded to w19’s address on RVC and parked his car next to Smith’s. He has a new dispatch time once he arrived at the complex, he fails to report an arrival time.
Raimondo also is dispatched to a specific address once he arrives at the complex, he asks Smith whether he should turn right or left at the front gate. Smith tells him to go left.
Raimondo’s information had the least ambiguities. His car would’ve been the second car after the car we thought belonged to Smith. Working back from those headlights arriving at the front gate we had a video start time of 6:46:40. That start time put Smith’s car just out of W3’s line of vision when she told 911 she could see the police. We adjusted 4 sec to 6:46:36.
You can find the new dispatch times for Ayala and Raimondo. If you check the video Smith was driving where you would expect him, you will see the headlights of a car arriving at the front gate when Ayala should have been there, and you see the headlights of a car at the front gate when Raimondo should have been at the front gate.
The bonus we got when we tried this start time was W18 saying I can hear the sirens just as the EMV’s are seen near the front gate. After they turn left on RVC and are passing W18’s RVC address, she states that the EMV’s are in front of her house now.
We got the time right on those videos. You move it 20 sec and lights are out of synch. We may be off 4, 5 seconds tops.
I’d like a series of shots takes so they could be overlaid into a panorama from the POV more or less of the pool cam that looks down TTL and also across the pool in a big wide angle, both daytime and nighttime and preferably when the streets are wet.
I’m very curious what portion of TTL is visible in the pool cam and what portion isn’t, and what causes the other “blobs” of light that appear to be near the second bend of TTL.
Shit. I probably shouldn’t have included JM in the comment, since I’m not at liberty to disclose the evidence you request.
I don’t THINK so…
**cue cheerleaders** BCC! BCC! BCC! Yay! Rah! WHOOOOHHH!
The organizational structure of JMs forums are indeed great. Sadly, the bias of the moderator makes it impossible to deal with.
I posted on her sites for months but was continually censored by her when she cited an ever changing set of “rules” for posting in a manner that left me feeling she simply didn’t care to hear thr truth.
Her rules are selectively applied and show obvious bias towards the defense. She is smart and several posters there – no matter especially – work very hard to establish the facts surrounding the case. It is HER site and she gets to run it any way she sees fit. IMO however she is unwilling to listen to logic or reason and instead acts as an advocate for the defense while deflecting, excusing and ignoring anything she finds inconvenient. This is of course what lawyers get paid to do. But if the purpose of social media like blogs is to allow a crowd to work towards a consensus opinion using logic and crowd-sourced research and deductions then I’d have to say bcc proved to be a better site.
My hope, Whonoze is that nomatter not be misunderstood by the regulars here as someone who is biased towards one side or the other. In my experience he or she is dedicated to understanding the facts alone and for the most part hews to logic first and speculative reasoning only as an afterthought and usually cites many sources for whatever he claims.
The fact that nomatter is posting here IMO is a subtle tip of his hat to the work that has gone on here by the “usual suspects” that have formed a consensus about so much regarding this case.
I’m unsure if the two of you actually disagree on much when it comes to the facts of the case. With luck patience and understanding no matter might help all here just as we’ve helped one another. That doesn’t mean we will always agree but a true consensus needs dissent and a rigorous examination to weed out group-think, something I feel talkleft suffered from, and all site are prone to.
Just my two cents here on trayvons birthday. There are some smart people around here and some strong opinions as well, certainly my own opinions are overstated from time to time. But I’m hoping the crowd-sourcing of research and careful consensus building can continue as the months pass until June.
If a mock trial were held I’d love to see Whonoze in the prosecutors chair. His arguments are reasoned and persuasive.
If i wanted a researcher for EITHER side I’d be inclined to pick nomatter.
I am unsure who I’d ask to defend GZ. I’d hate to put anyone in that position if the contest were a mock trial with an impartial judge. I don’t think MOM ever intended to win an acquittal for his client by fighting exclusively in court.
**snap!** ARGHHH! Yes, Miss Jeralyn! **zap!** Yes, Miss Jeralyn, I will obey your rules, whatever they are! **thud!** I. **sizzle!** Will. **crack!** Obey…
SHIT! I FORGOT THE SAFE WORD! **smack!** HELP! **stifle** HElppp… **silence**
Loree, where’s your smelling salts? Whonoze just had another conniption and might be passed out on the floor….
Oh Good Lord, come on baby(lifting head off the floor) smell this.. come on
Ok WSI he’s coming around…Whoa that was a close one…
🙂
Give me a “B” “C” “C” “L” “I” “S” “T”. GOOOOO Bcclisters!
Go BCCLIST !!! Yeah !!!
Well, the police were supposed to call him when they got there…
unitron
Yeah, I guess they got a bit side-tracked by getting another call with screaming and gunshots on it. The cops sent for GZ were taken off that job and diverted to the shooting, so they didn’t “get there” as far as that docket was concerned.
Sean probably would not have been taking the 911 calls, but he’d have heard about them and felt very very sick………..no matter which way he thought it had gone down.
I’m not sure, but I think that’s Sean talking to the retired teacher that called and stayed on the line for so long and was so freaked out and needed so much “hand holding”.
Whoever it was, they did a great job with her, but I don’t think I can go back and listen to that call again.
unitron
That would be L. Miller (p. 21 of 7th Supplemental).
Noffke took a non-emergency call that connected at 7:19:04 (p.23, Event 1681).
This could be the call Zimmerman was on at 7:19:07.
I don’t think W18 is a “retired teacher”. She’s only 55. I would guess she either left teaching voluntarily for another occupation, or was let go in one of the many budget cuts to education the states have faced over the last 20 years. And since I’ve seen a recent photo of her, I can say she’s a much more youthful 55 than you would imagine from listening to her 911 call. (She was heavily disguised for her in-shadow interview on CNN.) I found the photo on a dating website, where W18 is seeking men aged 45-55. No old fogeys for her!
She is a good looking lady. I think they better be fit as well if they want to date her. 🙂
Whonoze check email please, when you get a hot minute.
I only listened to her call one time and have relied on memory since rather than listen to her anguish again.
So I might be off on a detail or two.
unitron
(who missed her cutoff by “that much”)
@Uni
You’re right. That is why I suggested that maybe it was Sean calling back. Hmmm. But as someone suggested, wouldn’t that call be in discovery. A call placed by either 911 or NeN to gz. Maybe no one asked? IDK
What I’m looking for at the moment is the 911 call logs. Does anyone know what page on which discovery dump I can find them?
It is in the september 19 dump.
@willisnewton
Click to access GZ-States-7th-Supp-Discovery_Redacted.pdf
@willis
I take it that you are looking for when the officer had him at gun point and the timing of the picture. 🙂
Maybe this will be helpful.
I really should have slapped a smiley on the end of that remark about the police calling back, since I was being silly.
unitron
(who hasn’t figured out how to make the WordPress.com comment system do any fancy tricks yet)
Let’s see, Smith was en route to RATL to see GZ, who he knew from several previous responses. Should the SPD have known that the neighborhood Watch Captain had a CCWP? Of course they should have. They should also have known that GZ was armed when they responded over the years to his many calls. GZ has so much interaction with the SPD, often walking the station unchaperoned, my guess is they all knew that he always carried, just as he so freely tells everyone who asks.
So, Smith is en route to RATL to see GZ, when suddenly he’s diverted to RATL to respond to a “shot fired” call. Well, there aren’t any criminals in the RATL over the years, who are armed. So, it’s unlikely that there will be one today. Thus, if anyone has been shot, it’s more than likely GZ who shot them, eh? My guess is you hope they survive. But, you arrive on the scene and see that a young, unknown black kid is dead. Good lord you think, GZ has gone and gotten himself into some real trouble. Smith knows that GZ knows the Chief so he decides to lend GZ a hand. Under the guise of CPR they move the body and mess up evidence. Whatever happened to check for a pulse and look for the wound?
No matter, they go to work on trying to pull GZ’s chestnuts out of the fire. Did the Chief of Police and the Prosecutor Wolfinger come down to the scene? Hmmm… Guess GZ wasn’t so all alone in this as they would have him appear, eh?
|||=> Tick Tock! <-|||
I think Wolfinger showed up at SPD, not at the crime scene. Don’t remember about Lee. They were certainly both apprised of the situation.
Didn’t Wolfinger specifically deny being at the cop shop that night?
unitron
Do any of the witnesses say anything about Smith coming into contact with Martin’s body?
My impression was that he concentrated on taking the guy with the gun into custody and securing the weapon and in the meantime other cops arrived and started in on Martin.
When I listen to Zimmerman on that phone call, I have a hard time seeing him as a quick-thinking criminal mastermind who could engineer a cover-up on the fly like that.
I don’t even see him being able to grasp the essentials and his own role in just a few seconds if somebody else came up with the plan.
unitron
(who doesn’t have to be Holmes to be pretty doggone sure that Zimmerman’s no Moriarty)
Yep, GZ is so incompetent that if he didn’t have help with this, he’d never have been able to pull it off. His first story had a chance of holding up, even as cockamamie as it was, not because GZ was so adept at lying, but because the police themselves were willing to look the other way as he stumbled and tripped all over himself.
Okay, then back up a minute. How does someone become so stupid as to say that a fight took place in two different places? The only way that happens, in my book is, because one story was practiced and rehearsed to cover up the truth. That was the first story told on the spur of the moment then repeated later again and again. It had to have been rehearsed because it was something that never happened. How do you remember something that never took place? Obviously, you have to rehearse and commit it to memory. George was too incompetent to alter the rehearsed story to fit the facts of what had actually happened.
When he finally wakes up and tries, he realizes it’s too late, he’s already munged the story so badly all he can do to keep from worsening the conflicts is to stop the processes with “I can’t remember”. Notice how his memory never seems to fail him in wrong places, it only fails him in the places where it’s needed to avoid facing the conflicts he’s created.
If Smith even remembered who Zimmerman was, he wouldn’t have known he was the caller he was directed to meet with. Names of callers aren’t sent out over the radio.
Frequency of calls plus “suspicious person” would kind of be strong clues, eh? If you’ve read the 911 call logs you get the general impression that GZ is the only one calling in suspicious activity/persons, while other people are calling in about things that have actually happened.
Why does MOM seem to be on a fishing expedition regarding that the CRS was doing in Sanford? Community Relations Services is the branch of the DoJ that tries to calm the waters over racial animosity. From what I could tell, they met with a lot of pastors and ministers, etc and set up a “hot line” for calls about other incidents that individuals from the community may have had where they felt the SPD showed racial boas or improper behavior. City council members touted the presence of the CRS as though the DoJ were in town to investigate the SPD and give it a pass or fail grade, specifically in regard to the Zimmerman case and the general idea of whether or not the suspension-with-pay of police chief Bill Lee was for cause, and that somehow this “investigation” was going to clear his good name.
Nothing could be further from the truth IMO however because the CRS does not and never has been the branch of the DoJ that investigates and issues reports regarding the internal workings of a local police department. While they have the (limited) power of reporting suspicious activities to higher echelons of the DoJ, they are not an investigative unit.
I’ve seen no evidence whatsoever that the DoJ preformed or is performing an investigation of the Sanford PD, or the handling of the Trayvon Martin killing by the SPD and Norm Wolfinger.
This makes me wonder why the judge’s order includes material about correspondence between the CRS and the FBI, for example. I am not a lawyer and I am also not good at understanding the motives of the defense team, either. How can anything uncovered by the CRS be relevant to the case unless perhaps there were specific complaints about GZ that were referred to the FBI or something. I’m merely speculating and asking for others’ opinion here….
Two possibilities.
Character evidence for Zimmerman. In the course of their work, CRS people may have come across evidence that Zimmerman had a good reputation among African Americans who knew of him.
Or, O’Mara may be looking for more evidence that the prosecution was politically motivated.
“Why does MOM seem to be on a fishing expedition regarding that the CRS was doing in Sanford?…”
Maybe he wants to do everything he can to prevent any suprises about anything popping up from anywhere at any time.
I figure having a client like the one he has now might make him very wary of surprises.
unitron
The state filed the 12th supplemental discovery yesterday. Not available online yet (that I can find anyway). Crossing fingers that it includes the cell phone data.
http://www.seminoleclerk.org/CriminalDocket/case_detail.jsp?CaseNo=592012CF001083A
re: the possible “second call” by GZ that I referenced above.
The question was first brought up on Kos on april 1st of last year and never really resolved, AFAIK.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/04/01/1079607/-Sanford-911s-Gaps-In-The-Armor-Officer-Involved
It’s a complex diary and references another by Amsterdam, but the part I’m curious about right now is in the second paragraph which references the LAST page of the 47 page document dump that first gave us the full data on all the many many calls GZ made to the SPD to report “suspicious activity” like potholes, open garage doors and people walking while black.
The final page of the dump seems to a record of a call to SPD that is nearly identical to the call we all know and are familiar with – the recorded call to Sean the NEN call-taker. But this call comes at 7:20 and lasts for less than a minute, if I am reading it the same way we read the previous one. Can anyone decipher this for me?
The 47 page dump is here, and other places as well:
http://www.motherjones.com/documents/327330-george-zimmerrman-911-call-history
Read the last two pages and compare and contrast for what I’m confused about.
I was wrong.
On p. 2, connected 10:03:54, created 10:03:55. So the small gap doesn’t preclude an actual call.
On p. 4, the gap is just over three minutes. Huge variation.
I’m a puzzled as you.
The way I read the document, a non-emergency call connected at 7:20:28, the caller gave his name as George Zimmerman and gave the address of the RATL clubhouse. He then said nothing significant, and hung up after less than a minute.
Later, for some unknown reason, the remarks from Zimmerman’s earlier call were added to the Event Report for the 7:20 call.
According to the timeline I linked above, Zimmerman was putting his hands up for officer Smith about 7:19:44. So it looks like someone impersonated Zimmerman, or someone falsified the Event Report.
Something I just noticed, is that the creation time is 7:20:30, only two seconds after the connection time. This gap is usually much longer. That seems like another sign that the document is a dummy of some sort, though by what authority and for what purpose I cannot imagine.
After I post this, I’m going to look through the logs for the next shortest gap between connection and creation times.
It occurred to me that p. 2 is a 911 call.
It turns p. 47 does have shortest gap for a NEN call. There two with four second gaps, p. 19 and p. 44.
So, I’d say that for an actual call, a 2 second connection/created gap is unusual, but no incredible. I still don’t know what to make of it all.
Long ago I thought it might be a “pocket dial” by GZ. Perhaps when he made his call(s) to whomever while in the presence of JonW13, as evidenced in the bloody head photo, he first accidentally called the NEN number again. Perhaps ofc Tim Smith hit “redial” somehow in the process of disarming and securing his suspect. Perhaps GZ really was telling the truth when he told JohnW6 ( at least I think it was him) not to call 911, that he already had done so.
As for the report, maybe the system is automated enough to “roll over” whatever data is relevant to the phone number that is calling in.
How does the call time of the pg 47 call compare to the iPhone bloody head photo’s time stamp?
These are not actual phone calls. They’re a log of “events”.
The 7.09 call is Event No. 20120571656 and mentions, at the start, that there is a “dupe” at 7.20.
The 7.21 is Event No. 20120571685. That also mentions it is a dupe of 1656 and has no new information in it. It is full of “REM” which I assume is “remarks”. This Event starts with phone operator LCresswe taking over.
Both these also make references to Event 1671, which we haven’t been given logs for. What’s the betting that is the log of the 911 calls about the shooting?
The “Dispatched, Enrouted, Arrived and Cleared fields at the top of the logs are not filled in for these two events, unlike earlier ones.
———————-
The times on the logs run upside down, newest on top.
I don’t see it as evidence that GZ called again at 7.20; they’d surely include the caller details on later references to events, ie officer X is saying he’s arrived in response to a call by caller Y. Otherwise how do they explain what the officer is doing there?
I don’t see him making a call a minute after being cuffed by T. Smith. JohnW13’s photo of his head, with him being on the phone, was taken before Smith arrived.
Look at the one on page 43 (Event 1545) . Look at the times. Was GZ on line from 17.38 to 18.08??? doubt it… it’s a composite of several calls, OR the later remarks refer to information relayed by the officer on the scene (T.Smith, surprise surprise). In fact the later info contradicts the earlier….. GZ saying the kids were running out in front of cars, the officer reporting (?) that the kids were actually moving away to let cars pass. The time on that remark matches the “Cleared” time on the Event.
I may have found it, thanks to unitron. It was just a matter of looking up what our old pal Sean Noffke was up to. He took an non-emergency call at 7:19:04 (p. 23 of 7th Supplemental, Event 1681).
What did I do?
unitron
(who is pleased to have helped but baffled as to how)
Event 1681 has a blank in the name space. I would think that means the caller didn’t give a name.
The address is RVC, with the number redacted.
For Business/SubDivision, 1681 has RETREAT @ TWIN LAKES TOWNHOUSES.
Zimmerman’s 7:09 call, conveniently on p. 7 of 7th Supplemental, has CLUBHOUSE-TWIN LAKES TWNHSES.
So did Zimmerman call anonymously, and give W-13’s address?
Come to think of it, that would most likely be the address he would have gotten on RVC, if he could remember it at that point.
I had been assuming that Zimmerman placed the call after W-13 reached him. But maybe Zimmerman was on the phone when W-13 reached him, and he took a picture before they spoke.
Neither of them mentioned this, but then neither of them mentioned the picture or the phone call.
@Willis
I sent Whonoze a screen shot of the two. Hopefully he can post. I am technically challenged when it comes to posting pictures. 🙂
The time of photo was 7:19:07
One held at gunpoint 7:19:43 per page 10 of 33 discovery 7.
Reposted from TalkLeft.
Three new photosets.
The Retreat at Twin Lakes and Nearby Points, 2/4/13
nomatter_nevermind’s buddy icon
Colonial Village at Twin Lakes, 2/4/13
nomatter_nevermind’s buddy icon
Florida v. Zimmerman, Security Cameras
AghastInFl visited the complex again on 2/4, and brought us an even bigger batch of photos. Good work, AIF!
The above sets are works in progress. There are more photos to be added, as well as descriptions and location maps. I’m posting the links for those who may want to drop in and have a look.
You can’t see OUT the window, because the camera exposure is set to the interior, and the window blows out.
(And no YT videos are loading in my browser now. I’ve tried different browsers and different blogs. Anybody else having this problem or just me.)
You are asking me? Was that a test?
The time stamp is 7:19:07, which is a minute and 21 seconds before the p. 47 non-emergency call connected.
It was about 7:19:08 that W-18 began saying ‘There’s a man out here with a flashlight, with a man who had been wrestling.’
W-18 first reported someone with a flashlight, presumably W-13, about 7:17:52. About 8 seconds later, 7:18:00, she again mentioned seeing a man with a flashlight, saying that he was walking. About 7:18:15, she said ‘Someone’s coming over.’ About 7:18:29 she said someone was ‘taking a flashlight.’
That brings us back to 7:19:08, the first time W-18 indicated Zimmerman and W-13 were ‘with’ one another. It seems W-13 reached Zimmerman between 7:18:29 and 7:19:08. The time stamp suggests the earlier part of that period.
W-18 observed another person with a flashlight, who turned out to be Officer Smith, about 7:19:29.
That suggests a window of up to a minute that Zimmerman and W-13 could have been alone together, with the photo time stamp a little later than the midpoint of the window.
My mistake.
Event 1671 is W-3’s 911 call.
Most or all of the Event Reports for the 911 calls include remarks drawn from other calls and from radio traffic. Remarks from other 911 calls are identified by the event number for those calls. Statements made by the caller for that report, in this case W-3, are identified just as COMPL.
Sorry I messed up the block quoting on this one.
I don’t think my guess about internal transmission is tenable. ‘TEL’ is supposed to indicate a non-emergency call.
Maybe, but I can’t understand it. Do you have a link to something that explains how to interpret the Event Reports?
I don’t think W-18 said she could hear sirens. The dispatcher told her there would probably be a lot of sirens. W-18 said she heard cars.
You said you thought Sean was talking to W-18. I checked the 7th Supplemental, found that it was L. Miller, then went looking for what Sean was doing.
NMNM:
Something’s wrong between you and WordPress. Once a person gets one comment approved, their subsequent comments are supposed to go right to the blog w/o needing moderation. But all of yours keep being flagged for my approval for some reason. Sorry about that. I don’t know if I can fix it. Starting tomorrow, I’ll be mostly away from the web for about a week, (maybe more). So if you (or anyone else) offer comments that don’t appear right away, it’s not censorship on my part, just that I’ll be driving cross country in a Penske rental truck with two cats…
@Whonoze
Please check email.
Wordpress has been acting weird.
WordPress as of yesterday was not loading videos, etc. but I haven’t had any problems. I think its still acting up a little.
“…just that I’ll be driving cross country in a Penske rental truck with two cats…”
Man you must have really PO’ed the gods of karma somewhere along the line. : – )
unitron
Not all of them. At first I thought it was holding long ones and letting short ones through. But it seems to be random.
you could see if it has to do with your links. usually wordpress doesn’t like more than two links.
escaping the nemo storm are you? stay safe driving.
@Whonoze
Yes. Please be careful out there. Have a very safe trip. See ya when you get back. 🙂
No. But none of the witnesses knew one cop from another. As I recall, the ones who saw the CPR didn’t know if it was cops or EMTs. It was dark.
According to the reports, Smith prioritized taking Zimmerman into custody. Raimondo checked for a pulse. Then Raimondo, or maybe Raimondo and Ayala together, rolled the body over for CPR.
I did a post on TalkLeft about previous contacts between Zimmerman and the cops on the scene, as shown in the call logs.
Smith responded to two of Zimmerman’s NEN calls, the 2/2/12 incident at Taaffe’s place, and before that the kids in the street (pp. 44-45 of the call logs). I’m guessing he would have met with Zimmerman on the former occasion, likely not on the latter. I can’t tell from the reports, since I don’t understand all the codes.
Is there any evidence of contact between Zimmerman and Smith, other than those two occasions?
One thing to add, is that W-18’s contemporaneous account to 911 confirms that Smith took Zimmerman into custody as soon as he arrived in the backyard area.
If Smith made contact with the body before Raimondo or Ayala arrived, W-18 would probably have seen.
As someone remarked long ago about this very point, it would have been either stupid or telling, had Smith not taken the earliest opportunity to disarm and secure GZ immediately upon his arrival. Stupid because even if he thought GZ was harmless to him because he was so familiar, he cannot possibly know that will remain the case as GZ re-thinks his position. Or, telling, because it kinda says they’re familiar with one another and very likely biased as well. No, Smith did this part right, he left TM to the other arrivals.
Right – and page ten of the 33 page discovery is indeed event 1671, which starts with the 911 call that reported someone in a white shirt – which I personally cant say which witness that is but it’s known to the public now. I just can’t recall at present.
@willis
Witness 3 unidentified woman.
Teeslaw aka Whonoze has the calls of the witness in this video. Click on “show more” for more info. Hope this helps.
http ://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-3-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/
I find it helps to focus my attention on breathing steadily, like they teach in meditation classes.
Smith had his hands full. If he’d tried to attend to the dying or already expired teen, he would have exposed himself to an armed killer, thereby endangering everyone. He followed protocol by putting the admitted shooter into custody first.
Agreed. He followed protocol.
That’s W-3, the second caller, who called just before the gunshot. The gunshot can’t be heard on the redacted recording because it happened while W-3 was giving ID info, but you hear her and the dispatcher react to it.
Of course a lot of this “second call from GZ” would be cleared up easily if we only had the info from his cell phone, which apparently the state and the SPD possess. I truly don’t get how those materials are not part of the discovery already. It must be some lawyer tactic I don’t understand yet. The state has to provide everything that might be exculpatory I understand. But what about the rest?
@willis
How about a FOIA? Since we know the event log numbers, ask for the missing event number before Smith had him at gunpoint. He couldn’t call no one after that. You all are way more familar with the seventh discovery. We can get Malisha to do it, or I will, hell I’ll pay for it. 🙂
Thoughts?
“I truly don’t get how those materials are not part of the discovery already. It must be some lawyer tactic I don’t understand yet. The state has to provide everything that might be exculpatory I understand. But what about the rest?”
What the prosecution and defense are obligated to share with each other prior to trial isn’t necessary the same as what they have to share with all of us perspiring minds that want to know out here in the public, especially before it’s presented at trial.
unitron
(and his sweaty little brain)
comments thread is broken. THis happens with wordpress when web links exceed the margins I think. maybe it’s time for a new thread?
“comments thread is broken. THis happens with wordpress when web links exceed the margins I think. maybe it’s time for a new thread?”
Abandon thread! Abandon thread! Man the lifeboats! All hands on deck, prepare to abandon thread.
“She’s sinkin’ for sure, Cap’n, and there’s no way to save ‘er!”
unitron
(who’s obviously seen too much television)
unitron, snap out of it….
@WSI
That was brutal!
How can they stand it!
@WSI
HAHA 😆
@Uni
http://tinyurl.com/am6vo95
MAY DAY! MAY DAY!
BB, I’m guessing that’s a radio-uncontrolled model. : – )
unitron
@Uni
You are correct!
: ^ ))))
In my case, it doesn’t seem to like more than one.
It may be that NMNM is using code for hyperlinks, rather than just pasting in the url’s in text form. NMNM: Why don’t you try a comment w/o any code, and see if that goes through.
Thanks. I’ll try it.
No, that’s W-2. W-1’s interview with Serino is here.
In his written report, Serino noted that W-2 at first said she was downstairs and saw a chase and a fistfight, then on a second interview she changed that to upstairs and just a chase (40-41/184, also displayed in that you-tube version of W-2’s interviews.)
W-1 was consistent, and her statements support the defense by partially corroborating W-6.
W1 was the person who was cooking in the kitchen. W2 was upstairs. I think they misidentified the witnesses.
One of y’all that can set foot over in the lounge without kevlar on invite bettykath over here.
It looks like they’re fixing to gang up on her and she could use a foxhole to jump into.
unitron
unitron, i think bettykath will be ok. the prof actually backed her up when others called her a troll. but wow, you do have to put a kevlar jacket on if you want to pose a ‘what if the defense….’ kind of question over there. but those attacks come predictably only from certain posters. exactly the reason why i’ve always stayed on bcclist, and i only ventured out to the whonoze blog because i consider it an extension of the bcclist family. i’m not fast enough to dodge those bullets….
btw, no danger of me capitalizing you anymore, i spilled a drink on my laptop, and broke the keyboard. good excuse to buy a new one tho.
What site are you talking about? ” Lounge?” Do they have doughnuts?
And speaking of other sites, what do people here think about DiWataman’s argument for a car dipping into the clubhouse parking lot shortly before the lone vehicle that trolls the mail kiosk heads down TTL for a probably u turn to face the kiosk?
He contends there are framed art works that create a glimmer on the wall in a unique fashion, but one of his examples of car passes that DON’T supposedly have the artworks glimmer seems to have some to me. I don’t yet have an opinion on what he’s trying to point out but I don’t subscribe to his theory on the timing/ sync of the audio/video since he’s still using the 18 minute figure as an accurate one. I’m still trying to follow his logic but haven’t quite been able to get what he is trying to say fully and measure it against my own conclusions about the same data.
And speaking of other sites, what’s happening ANYWHERE else? Justice Quest? TalkLeft?
There seems to be at least some coherent discussions going on at TalkLeft between Whonoze and a lot of regulars there and despite what I see as a groupthink reliance on the idea that “GZ MUST be telling the truth, even when he contradicts himself somehow” I kinda think he is making some headway. Look for JM to swoop in any minute and close the thread for specious reasons.
Are there other sites worth keeping an eye on? It seems to me that anything unmoderated and part of the MSM is worthless, a bunch of flame wars and ill-informed opinions.
the ‘lounge’ is leatherman’s blog.
@Uni
Will do.
The Frederick Leatherman Law Blog. They have nuts, but no dough. 🙂
Sorry for the block quote fail…
Debating GZ’s “true believers” is like pounding one’s head against cement. I’m glad it took you less time for that to sink in that it did for me. I flailed over there for months before boiling all my arguments down to ONE basic question: where was GZ when he agreed TM was by the clubhouse and headed for him. I never once got a coherent answer in response to that one, and was eventually banned for continuing to pose it and refute partial rebuttals that used illogical explanations to wave it off without answering the basic question. There is simply no “there” there when you argue with a true believer.
While it is true that the job of a defense attorney is not to establish GZ’s exact whereabouts beyond a reasonable doubt in order to convince a jury to acquit him, it does seem as though a jury might be curious to know if his story is POSSIBLE or not, seeing how it is inconsistent, contradictory in places and not seemingly possible to align with the NEN call recording itself, never mind the clubhouse videos.
This is of course the last vestige of belief the true believers cling to – that “whatever happened,” the state cannot PROVE beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ is guilty of M2. I tend to agree somewhat that killing the other guy tends to make your story stand out a little brighter than what a dead person can testify to, but that’s hardly the point.
IMO the state will simply destroy GZ’s credibility and eliminate the possibility that what he said could be true by that means…. ie. if it happened one of several ways, and GZ claimed A, B, and C happened but clearly lied about A and B, then C isn’t any more likely true than ANY other explanation.
FWIW diwataman does seem to be “evolving” his thinking on the timing, now postulating a 16.5 minute gap or some such. But yeah, he’s not acting logically and he seems to start with a premise and then try to build up a case for the premise rather than the opposite approach – examine the data and draw a conclusion independent of bias. Not very scientific.
And the leatherman blog is interesting, but I prefer the level of signal to noise that we’ve been able to establish here.
“They have nuts, but no dough. ”
Priceless.
unitron
(who’s abandoning ship for lifeboat 3)
@Uni
It must be a full moon in the blogosphere. I am having trouble maintaining the lifeboats.
I can’t save them all.
🙂
I see you did a drive by, I mean a post-by.
You got me laughing over here.
Peace……..Love…….Happiness
Blush
Maybe we should preserve the metaphor and call it a splash-by.
See you on the SS Diasopora 3
unitron
@Uni
Agreed.
See you at the other lifeboat.
Here are my speculative illustrations for yet another possible explanation of what DiWataman and many of us here are wondering is in the window shortly before the car that trolls the mail kiosk appears.
and the original to compare to is here, if you care to flip back and forth between the two images.
I don’t claim to say this is correct. It’s just a point for discussion. I don’t yet have an opinion on what is shown. I do think that a comparison test would have been a useful investigative tactic, however and I sure wish we cold see some daytime shots properly exposed from the security cams to show what SHOULD be visible and what isn’t.
Diwataman makes a compelling argument for some sort of an arc being made by a vehicle at this time. I’m not sure his speculative position is right, but I am impressed by the idea of an arc being driven – the lights seem to “sweep” as opposed to just get brighter and dimmer like they would for a car on a straight path.
I’m semi-intentionally trying to NOT think about any implications of what this means vis a vis GZ’s false narrative if indeed he did pull in somehow briefly into the clubhouse lot. I’m still just trying to form an opinion on what is happening at all. Maybe he did dip into the lot, maybe he didn’t. It’s still clear he pushed a false narrative about the two individual’s movements from clubhouse area to cut thru area and it’s still clear to me that he did so to omit a car to pedestrian “chase” that causes the teen to run. But like everyone, I’m curious what can be deduced about ALL the movements of the evening.
New thread up as this one is now past 225 comments:
May I make a suggestion, please post a note that two links embedded in a post will break the thread. Suggestion: Add a space after http. You will be away for some time and we don’t want chaos to ensue. 🙂
My error.
W-13 said Zimmerman appeared to be on the phone when he approached (3:55-4:04 on the Axiom Amnesia version of the FDLE interview).
And, of course, W-13 told FDLE about the pictures, and gave them copies (13:15-16:35).