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Don’t screw with George (because he’ll screw with you)…
It seems like time for a new thread. I don’t know what to call it. If you make a good suggestion, I’ll change the title (but not the URL).
Why am I not surprised that the whole Jonathan Martin bullying scandal erupted on a football team that plays in Florida. I wouldn’t bet that Richie Incognito will be making joint appearances with Geroge Zimmerman, but on the other hand, I wouldn’t be surprised. As Tsar says, “Stay classy Florida.”
Categories: Uncategorized
whonoze 
Miami Mayhem ?? Miami Misfits ?? Florida Failures??
‘noze,
Sounds like you’re going for the “Bash Florida” thread.
Of course you could always call it
“The very last thread ever….
(until the next one.)
: – )
Ninety-nine shuttles of thread on the blog
Ninety-nine shuttles of thread
If one of those shuttle should happen to break
Ninety-eight shuttles of thread on the blog…
: – )
: – )
: – )
Apparently, UPS no longer stands for “United Parcel Service,” but rather “Unidentified Punk Suspect.” };-)
Sorrry for any confusion: my Florida remark was a random observation, not meant as a theme for the thread. At this point, I think we’re post-theme.
I’m liking “Unidentified Punk Suspect” though.
In other Florida news, I assume everybody saw that Ben Crump is now (or was) one of the attorneys for Marissa Alexander’s appeal, putting him on the opposite side of Angela Corey in an SYG case.
Then there’s Renisha McBride…
I can’t believe how f-ed up this country is. It’s depressing…
Heh.
Ya know, I don’t follow sports, so I had to look up Richie Incognito. I couldn’t believe that a real person had such a “suspicious” name.
I was thinking that it might be ‘nice’ to have a doodad that counts down to February 26, 2014. As it happens, wordpress does have a widget for that (milestone), but in reading further, it sounds buggy. (Also, it sounds like you don’t want this blog to be a one-issue blog anymore.)
“I can’t believe how f-ed up this country is. It’s depressing…”
I know the feeling. I’ve lost so much faith in our justice system because of this case that I’ve avoided getting too caught up in any others.
For myself, I plan to follow the case until the deadline is up, or until the DoJ announces unequivocally that they won’t be pursuing federal charges, whichever comes first.
If you want me to shaddup about it (here on your blog), just let me know.
Just going back through the time line of events again, ‘armed’ with the allegation that GZ pulled his firearm on a UPS delivery man. This was supposedly in November 2011.
It was in August 2011 that Olivia Bertalan’s home at 1840 Retreat View Circle was burgled in broad daylight (11:00). I have no doubt that Bertalan felt terrified, being home alone save her infant child. On the other hand, it was a “no force entry” burglary, because the burglars came in via the patio door which was subsequently found to have a non-functional lock.
But here’s a tidbit that I hadn’t quite remembered:
The Daily Beast 20120328
Hmmm. So it was SZ who ‘helped’ Bertalan ID the thief.
Was this Burgess? He would have been eighteen in August 2011 (if only barely).
Anyway, back to the alleged UPS incident in November 2011.
Knocking on the door/ringing the doorbell is Standard Operating Procedure for UPS delivery personnel. Answering your door (or coming outside) with a gun in your hand is not.
It would have been ‘nice’ had the UPS delivery man come forward before the homicide trial because it would have provided ancillary evidence that GZ was a homicide waiting to happen. Hey, it would be good even now for him to come forward.
I still want to know more about this alleged incident.
Regarding the timing of the arrival of persons on the scene of the killing: Manalo and Ofc Tim Smith’s stories don’t match. And I don’t trust that either one is telling the full version of the story. It’s always seems “fishy” to me that cell phone calls were going on at this time when what needed to be happening was life saving efforts.
SPECULATION: there was more conversational back and forth between the three – GZ, JM and ofcTS than any of them care to admit to. I think the discrepancies might be explained if Manalo tells the whole truth, but I’m not convinced he is motivated to do so.
QUESTIONS for the group:
What is known for certain is that the photos Manalo took have a time stamp and the picture of GZ’s bloody head shows him holding a phone to his head while squatting or kneeling at the location where the tan bag was found. Presumably this was before the arrival of Ofc TS.
The pics of the body& flashlight and the flashlight alone are also time stamped. How much time is there between all these incidents?
Could it have been that the two (GZ and JM) parted after the photo – JM heading south to take more shots and GZ headed north to continue his phone call or whatever? If so, then ofc TS meets GZ near the T where the keys were found and missed seeing JM until after he had the admitted shooter in cuffs and disarmed.
What has to be allowed for is the conversation regarding the caliber of the weapon and GZ’s excuse for firing it. Then there was the conversation about “just tell her I shot someone”. Also the initial exchange between GZ and ofcTS. These are the only talks I know of that anyone admits to. Was there TIME for more to have been said? If so when?
willisnewton,
I always thought it was at the very least odd for JM to ask GZ about the caliber of weapon he used, but tried to brush it off as a ‘man’ thing.
One thing I think we can be safe in saying is that Tim Smith knew GZ, if only because TS was one of the responders on the incident at the Taaffe residence on 20120202 (see Page 45 of Mother Jone police call PDF). Also, GZ identified himself as being part of Neighborhood Watch on that occasion.
I recently dug up a link for an incident involving Burgess when he was supposedly only sixteen, and it even has a picture (not a mug shot, but a more or less full-body shot):
My Sanford 20090316?
By all rights, the year on that piece should be 2010 (because in March of 2010, Burgess would have been sixteen), but March 16th of 2010 wasn’t a Monday, so it may have been 2009, and they were ’rounding up’ his age.
At fifteen or sixteen, Burgess was already imposing-looking. Interestingly, the piece references “investigator Tim Smith.”
Calls from witnesses are really useful in this case. You can see that what they state they see line up pretty well in time:
[We know, from Selma, that GZ stood up from TM’s back and started pacing]
19:17:42 Witness 18 Says “I see the person right now. I see him like walking.”
[We know that the first person walking to GZ with a flashlight is JManalo. We also know he was with GZ at 19:19:07 when he took a picture]
19:17:48 Witness 18 Says “There is a man coming out with flashlights.”
[JGood says that while on the phone with 911 he looked down the backyard from his bathroom upstairs]
19:17:53 Witness 06 Says “I’m pretty sure the guy’s dead out here!”
[We know from JManalo that has he approached GZ seemed to be on the phone.]
19:18:__ G. Zimmerman Dials Sanford Police Dept. number (407-688-5070)
[We also know that it takes ~20sec to walk to the T from RVC at avg pace => 19:17:48+00:00:20=18:18:08. This is about the time JGood sees people with flashlights]
19:18:07 Witness 06 Says “There’s a guy with a flashlight in the backyard.”
[All of a sudden, at about the same moment, 2 independent witnesses, with views of the scene from the south, tell 911 dispatchers that they see people with flashlights.]
19:18:16 Witness 19 Says “Somebody’s walking around with a flashlight.”
19:18:19 Witness 05 Says “Now there’s people coming with flashlights.”
[Soon after, for the 1st time JSurdyka tells dispatcher about a dead body. I bet you JManalo’s flashlight helped]
19:18:44 Witness 18 Says “Someone’s like dead on the ground.”
[Finally, JSurdyka discribes what can only be Ofc. Smith actions as corroborated by 911 logs]
19:19:26 Witness 18 Says “I think there is another gentleman with a flashlight.”
19:19:32 Witness 18 Says “He shot the person! He just said he shot the person!”
19:19:39 P1839 Logs REM “NEED FD”
19:19:43 P1839 Logs REM “1 AT GUN POINT”
19:19:44 Witness 18 Says “A guy is raising his hands up.”
############
At no point, Ofc. Smith tells about JManalo. I remember being very disappointed. There is no way Ofs. Smith would have missed him. Indeed, he testified seeing TM’s body immediately and the log “NEED FD” placed before “1 AT GUN POINT” confirms it.
###########
JManalo’s behavior was also out of common to say the least. He rushed out to the scene of a gunshot in the dark with just a cell phone and a flashlight while all his neighbors went into hiding except for Selma who did not realized the pop was a gunshot.
I was really suspicious of that witness because of that. However, I now know that he was trained to be police ofc. I also have to admit that some people simply take more risks.
Overall, I stick to the idea that witnesses told their stories to the best of their abilities.
Per GZ’s phone records he called SPD’s NEN # at 19:18:XX.
JM pic of GZ’s head was taken at 19:19:07 and shows GZ hold his phone to his ear.
Ofc T. Smith has GZ at gun point at 19:19:43.
However, thanks to JayneW18 there are indications of the time JM & Ofc. TS were walking toward the T. It would 19:17:48 for JM & 19:19:26 for Ofc. TS
Hmmm, so putting these events in a timeline:
19:17:48 JM walks towards the T (per W18).
19:18:xx GZ calls NEN police number [T-Mobile times are rounded to the minute]).
19:19:07 JM takes a picture of GZ’s head.
19:19:26 TS walks towards the T (per W18).
19:19:43 TS has GZ at gunpoint.
FYI, Diwataman opined:
Entry on Diwataman’s Blog 20130730
Diwatan got it wrong. 911 logs show the connection time with dispatcher not call time.
By calling a NEN # he got put on hold for a rather long period of time waiting to reach a dispatcher. This is especially true after 19:17:00 when many people at the RATL started calling 911.
In other words, 1min 34sec & 2min 28sec are the maximum time GZ has been put on hold waiting to connect with dispatch. They are not discrepancies between clocks..
“Lake Mary police on Thursday announced that they could not salvage video from an iPad George Zimmerman tore up during a dispute with his estranged wife and thus he will face no domestic violence charges…..Police sent the parts to a computer expert with the U.S. Secret Service in Tulsa, Okla., hoping he’d be able to recover video, but the report released today makes clear that the damage was too extensive.”
Maybe they should send it to Ed Snowden. If he can’t do, maybe his newfound buddies in Russia can.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-george-zimmernan-no-domestic-violence-charges-20131114,0,7257561.story
So the smirking sociopath ‘wins’ again:
GZ With His Knife 20130909
Well, I figure that sooner or later, he’s going to get ‘smart’ with the wrong person.
Ah, that’s right. NEN calls would logically be a lower priority than 911 calls. [D]iwataman seems like an intelligent person overall; I wonder how (or why) he might have missed this. };-)
At any rate, we’d have:
19:17:48 JM walks towards the T (per W18).
19:18:XX GZ (re)dials NEN (per T-Mobile records which are rounded to the minute).
19:19:07 JM takes a picture of GZ’s head (per JM’s iPhone).
19:19:26 TS walks towards the T (per W18).
19:19:43 TS has GZ at gunpoint.
19:20:28 GZ’s NEN call connects (per E911 log, page 47 of Mother Jones PDF).
That would make sense in terms of JM taking a picture of GZ with a cell phone to his ear.
That second NEN call was one minute per T-Mobile and about 26 seconds per E911 (the last entry in the E911 log for that call was at 19:20:54). It looks like dispatcher LCresswe duplicated a lot of the information from the first NEN call.
I wonder whether LCresswe actually talked to GZ (who was at gunpoint by the time his call connected); the last two entries in that E911 log were made by a different RadioID
Did this get discussed during the trial?
There is no indication that GZ ever talked with L Cresswe.
As far as I can remember, it was not discussed at trial.
No conversation with GZ was logged by LCresswe.
During trial, we learned that GZ dropped his phone to the ground while being arrested.
And finally, it is hard to believe that GZ kept on waiting for that call to go through with T.Smith’s gun pointed at him from ~19:19:43 on. But we never know given how crazy that event already is.
As I noted in post #11 (https://whonoze.wordpress.com/2013/11/11/nameit/#comment-5379), there is enough statements made by witnesses while on 911 call to verify and establish a timed sequence of events:
1) GZ was up 1min after shooting TM [this is about the time TSmith was seen by W03 driving on TTL],
2) JManalo was outside heading toward the T seconds after GZ started walking.
3) GZ started calling right before JManalo got by him (Selma & Surdyka described him with his hands to his head. JManalo said that it sounded like he was on the phone as he approached him)
4) Flashlights were seen by W05 & W19 at ~19:18:15 which suggests that JManalo already passed the T.
5) JSurdyka could describe the body on the ground from her bedroom at 19:18:44 which suggests that the flashlight was then pointed to TM.
6) The picture of GZ’s head came after at 19:19:07.
Heh. Yeah, I think I remember now that Manalo testified to GZ dropping his phone after TS arrived, and ‘challenged’ him. Actually, I now also remember wishing that the state would get Manalo to clarify what all GZ dropped at that time. His keys were an item of keen interest.
I’m amazed at what I already seem to have forgotten. It’s probably my brain protecting itself from an unpleasant experience.
And speaking of unpleasant experiences, bit by bit, Jack Cashill is trying to rewrite the case:
<a href=”http://www.cashill.com/zimmerman/affirmative_action_goes.htm”>Cashill 20131113
One thing I do remember is that the authorities did toxicology testing on Trayvon Martin, and all they found was a miniscule trace of THC, yet Cashill is stating unequivocally that TM was “high.”
Um, who was acting like he was “up to no good or he’s on drugs or something?”
Let’s see: slurred speech, inability to give directions, inability to follow directions…
Answer: George Zimmerman–who wasn’t toxicology-tested that night.
Oops, bad HTML. Hope I didn’t cripple the infant thread.
So Cashill wrote:
“…Martin was allowed to wander the Retreat at Twin Lakes in Sanford, Florida, high and alone, looking, in George Zimmerman’s immortal words, “like he’s up to no good or he’s on drugs or something.
Martin was on drugs and, as Zimmerman learned the hard way, he was up to no good.”
There’s a word for that. It’s called ‘libel.’ The Martin family should sue the SOB.
Hmmm, interesting. However, I have to wonder whether TM’s family feel they have better things to do. Still, a lawsuit might be the only thing that would silence an assholic like Cashill.
@whonoze,
Oops, you know what I latterly realized? TM can’t be slandered or libeled–because he’s dead. Nertz.
Yup, it’s not possible from a legal standpoint to slander or libel a dead person.
If you needlessly kill someone, and then cast aspersions on the character of the decedent so as to make it seem like it was their own fault, it’s like killing them twice.
First you kill the body, and then you assassinate the character.
‘Neat’, huh?
Your seemingly-related trivia du jour comes to you courtesy of Turner Classic Movies host Ben Mankiewicz.
After a showing of Hammer’s 1965 version of “She,” he quoted actor Peter Cushing (alluding to the film having been something of a tough shoot) as saying something along the lines of an actor’s life not being all “beer and skittles.”
Mankiewicz stressed that it was something Cushing (and not himself) had said, possibly trying to forestall an avalanche of irate mail (or coyly inviting it: who knows?).
Presumably, Cushing was not talking about the candy (invented in Britain in 1974), but rather the sport/game:
Wikipedia entry for Skittles the sport
This just in:
“George Zimmerman arrested for domestic violence” Nov. 18, 2013.
“APOPKA, Fla. —George Zimmerman has been arrested in a domestic dispute involving his girlfriend and booked in the Seminole County Jail, law enforcement said.
He was arrested at about 1 p.m. Monday at his girlfriend’s home on Topfield Court in Apopka following a 911 call. Neighbors told WESH 2 News that they didn’t know the woman was dating Zimmerman, and they thought the man might have been an undercover cop because he walked around like an officer.
Neighbors said his truck had been parked in the neighborhood for about a month.
Chopper 2 video showed several Seminole County Sheriff’s vehicles at the home Monday afternoon.
Deputies plan to release the arrest report and 911 call.
Zimmerman will be held in jail until his first appearance in front of a judge, which will take place within 24 hours after his arrest. He will not be represented by Mark O’Mara, his attorney during his murder trial.”
GZ arrested again, not surprising. Another woman finds this man attractive enough to be his girlfriend after all that’s happened, UNBELIEVABLE!
Oh, ugh, TMZ is reporting that his girlfriend is pregnant. GZ managed to procreate? Assuming that’s true, may that child never know where he/she came from.
GZ really was with that nice lady back in September!!! And she got pregnant!!! How can someone be so blind? Now things will turn horribly difficult for her
According to her, she’s not pregnant.
It was George, in his call to 911 (yes, this time he called 911, not the NEN), who said she was pregnant.
Listen to both her call and his.
The differences are striking.
Where did she discuss not being pregnant? In her 911 call, all I heard was the dispatcher asking her they had been fighting. She answers “no, not really”. The dispatcher apologizes, then she goes on to say something to the effect that she didn’t want to get into it because she knows it’s going to go public. The “striking” differences that I hear is that the girlfriend sounds just like someone you would expect to sound when they’re calling 911, frustrated, frazzled or whatever. GZ is cool as a cucumber and makes the 911 to “tell the truth”. He knows the system and it’s always been his forte to be able to speak calmly to authorities after any incident. It’s eerily calm actually. I don’t know if he’s had other girlfriends, but that makes 3 women in his life now (just turned 30 years old) that he’s had domestic issues with. What is he, just a crazy chick magnet?
She didn’t discuss pregnancy during the call, but did tell the deputies that she wasn’t.
Oh, I’ve read that she denied being pregnant to the cops. I think that she is (why would GZ make that up?) and didn’t want the world to know about it. Maybe her own family didn’t even know about it.
He says she’s pregnant. She says she isn’t all that in the middle of a dispute involving a gun.
Why the world around that man always looks surreal?
While its tempting to read about the train wreck that is the personal life of GZ, I’m glad to see the timeline of events being confirmed further. We know from JM that the caliber of the handgun was discussed and that GZ said something about being forced to shoot. Also “am I bleeding?” What else was said and how much time does it take to say all that?
If we estimate those verbal exchanges pre and post photo time stamps I’m guessing a more clear picture would emerge.
Regarding the domestic violence, those seem like serious actions and ones that a decent prosecutor who is motivated to pursue a case could make stick. They could play it as a “third strike” I suppose.
Oh, what’s the right expression here? Ugh!:
Orlando Sentinel 20131118
Almost too ‘quotable,’ although I notice the word “alleged” seems to be missing.
Well, I can only hope it’s true that little Miss Areola isn’t pregnant, but unfortunately it seems inevitable that some witless womb will eventually host his spawn.
Also missing, his version of what happened.
I believe his 911 call constitutes ‘his version’:
CBS piece with audio of both calls
But I take (what I think was) your point about the OS piece not presenting GZ’s version.
His version of what happened, along with the word “alleged” is missing from that Orlando Sentinel quote.
But I see they adhere to the usual media tactic of saying something sensationalistic as though it was an actual report of what happened, and then slipping in “according to…” at the end, so that readers/viewers are left with the impression of “X happened” rather than “A said that X happened”.
I suppose that technically speaking that tactic is not dishonest, but I don’t much care for the smell of it, or the implied low opinion of the audience.
Not so much – she “went crazy again” whateve that means. He clims she did the damage and that she was destroying his property and also that he never pointed a shotgun at her. What else can he say?
Historically speaking we’ve seen that when in doubt GZ leaves it out; and what he did he blamed the kid (now the g/f)
I heard the 911 calls on the Larry O’Donnell show. GZ mentions the woman’s pregnancy twice to the 911 operator. She apparently later denied she was pregnant to the police. Now, which of these two do we guess is the more truthful?
Yeah, she hasn’t yet demonstrated herself to be a habitual liar, although her overall judgment is certainly in question.
GZ may have slipped that pregnancy thing in as a dig to SZ. Then again, it could be wishful thinking on his part because he’s not fertile. OK, that’s probably wishful thinking on my part…
I can’t imagine why GZ would say she’s pregnant other than as a spiteful act to screw with her life knowing full well the 911 call would be broadcast. So whether he’s lying or not, it makes him an A-hole either way, right? As I mentioned in my comment above, I get the feeling she didn’t want her pregnancy to be a topic of household discussion, so a denial by her is not surprising.
She may not want her whole life to be a topic of household discussion, but if she doesn’t, then she should have long since steered clear of GZ.
I don’t even try putting any rational to that pregnancy story.
All I know is that GZ is on a downward spiral and sticking to him is not only stupid but is dangerous.
If only he could be locked in the house of that jury who thinks that he wonderful neighbor.
Yup, I want GZ to live in juror B-37’s neighborhood.
tchoupi,
Make no mistake: GZ is the biggest part of the problem in the surreality that seems to surround anything concerning him, but another component may be Florida’s “Sunshine” laws.
Is Florida really as dysfunctional as it seems? Maybe, maybe not. On any slow news day, Florida is easy prey for the press.
Should I hold my breath waiting for this tweet: “This is why people think George Zimmerman is risky”?
I’m curious to see who’re going to host that narcistic man when he gets out.
Well, it looks like Scheibe knows what a calculating operator he can be:
New York Daily News 20131118
It’s that kind of ‘excited utterance’ that tends to make me lose sympathy for her.
Well, not to mention it provides corroboration for what many case watchers have suspected about GZ for a long time.
The arrest report (link courtesy of “Nettles” at her annettekblog at wordpress):
Tribune Media 20131118
One thing I don’t get is when GZ asked to talk to his attorney on the 911 call, the dispatcher said that they’re already on scene. So who was the attorney that showed up? O’Mara already had washed his hands of the domestic issues, and this morning it seems like he was assigned a public defender.
By “they” the operator meant the police. She wanted GZ to go talk to the cops w/o speaking to an attorney first. I.e. ‘why do you want to talk to a lawyer about your problem with your girlfriend when the police are already there to mediate the dispute?’
A bit of a departure from what was otherwise commendable professionalism on her part.
Trying to get people to make admissions against their own interests, as the phrase goes, just for the sake of doing so is not part of their job.
Did George choke Samantha? Sam says he did…
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/prosecutor-zimmerman-s-girlfriend-claims-he-choked-her
He’s free. I’m at the car dealer waiting, and see on TV that he’s out.
Who paid the bail? Who’s that guy with a purple BMW X6 he walked out with? Is he the next guy to try his luck sticking for him?
We’ll see at the next episode of GZ goes to jail.
The bail was cheap and the fancy car was likely a bail bondsman’s. I heard 900 bucks.
Was a tad more at $9,000 willis (but gone are his golden days of $150,000 bails!) and George’s good friend Frank Taffe paid it as per telephone interview on HLN:
http://www.hlntv.com/video/2013/11/19/zimmerman-arrest-911-calls?clusterId=1613#videoplayer
Sorry, gave the wrong link. Hope this one works: http://www.hlntv.com/video/2013/11/19/frank-taaffe-george-zimmerman-has-been-traumatized
The idea that GZ has been traumatized by ‘having had’ to kill TM, and the consequences thereof makes me pretty tight-jawed.
All GZ needed to do to avoid that kind of ‘trauma’ was not go prowling around with a gun looking for trouble (and inventing some when he couldn’t find any).
Whoa, things are moving too fast again (for me, anyway).
So it was ‘Uncle Frank’ who put up the $900 for GZ’s bond.
Financed by Taaffe’s talking head time on TV, presumably…
Yep… good ol “Uncle Frank”, but I heard nine thousand not nine hundred.
Maybe they should start a business, i.e.: GZ gets himself in the news, (e.g. stopped, photographed, handcuffed, arrested, divorced, shoot someone, etc.), uncle Frank expounds about it to the media using the fees to pay bond with any overs divided as profit… not just a new business model it’s the evolution of a new biosystem; parasitic reciprocity !
“Yep… good ol “Uncle Frank”, but I heard nine thousand not nine hundred.”
Bond was set at $9,000
A bondsman, who is licensed by the state and has some sort of arrangement with them (I’m not sure exactly what the requirements are as to whether the state actually holds some of their money or what, but basically the bondsman has a credit account with the state, and if the client skips they have to pay the state the entire amount of the bond) signs a promise to pay the state that $9,000 if Zimmerman doesn’t show up for trial.
In return for doing so the bondsman charges a fee of 10% of the amount of the bond.
So the fee was $900.
The bondsman is keeping that $900, no matter what.
It’s sort of a loan from the bondsman of the amount of the bond, or bail, where the interest on the loan is 10%, payable up front, regardless of the length of time the loan is outstanding.
Dang… I keep forgetting that the US is the country where nothing is free, not even ones own money. I reckon there’d be riots here if Lady Justice put sword and scales to measuring up and shaving off a pound of flesh if one was innocent… and probably riots even if one wasn’t.
But many thanks for the clarification. It adds light to favourite films like “Midnight Run” and “Jackie Brown” for us Brits who expect all bond money back once fulfilled the contract.
Per this NBC piece, GZ has two assigned public defenders, Daniel Megaro, and Jeff Dowdy:
NBC 20131119
In addition to his latest troubles:
Too bad, so sad (*not*).
Schadenfreude might not be attractive, but it’s real (and the Germans were at least forthright enough to give it a name).
Do I pay for those public defenders as a tax payer or is the bill exclusively for the people of the great State of Florida?
The former would hurt me, but the latter would put a smile on my face.
###
I also see that Georgie is millionaire in negative-Dollars (2.5M$ in debt).
After he dumped most of the friends who worked at pulling him out of jail the 1st time and pointed his gun at one of the few idiots left around him, I have no doubt that his life as a free man is over.
They still hope he will cash in with his lawsuit with NBC. L’espoir fait vivre (Where there’s life, there’s hope).
Hmmm, I think the taxpayers of Florida, but when you really look at it, ultimately we all pay.
Zimmerman paid the 10% minimum:
USA Today 20131119
That’s right, Sunshine Boy, keep your behind in Florida.
Wonder what two addresses he has to steer clear of. At a guess, Schiebe’s place, and wherever Frau Zimmerman is keeping herself these days.
More likely shrieb’s home and work are off limits to GZ. (Technically is he married still? )
Hmmm, so you think it’s Scheibe and Digital Risk? Well, there’s certainly a precedent for former employees showing up at a place of business, and causing mayhem and death.
I rather thought that GZ might have been told to stay away from his wife, Frau Zimmerman the Younger, especially because it seems likely that she’s staying with her parents, one of whom GZ allegedly took a poke at (although there’s also a story that DBDSR got his nose injuries in a collision with the large WR).
Yes, GZ is still married, but he’s also finally been served the divorce papers so that action can proceed, and it will probably include full financial disclosure for both of them.
One of those articles I linked today reported that GZ is about 2.5 million in debt.
And on another front, the DoJ is saying they may soon announce their decision with regard to federal charges against GZ:
Washington Post 20131119
Hmmm, let’s see: George Zimmerman said “F*cking coons,” and five minutes later fatally shot African-American Trayvon Martin.
This is hardlya surprise but still a disappoint met. Given that an adequate investigation would show the car to pedestrian chase that caused the teen to run off the road from fear. Not sure how a federal prosecutor would prove racial animosity beyond a reasonable doubt but were a jury to see the lies this man told to avoid prison I think they might be moved to err on the side of a guilty verdict on whatever evidence was offered, even of it was only “coons/punks.”
This is hardly a surprise but still a disappointment given that an adequate investigation would show the car to pedestrian chase that caused the teen to run off the road from fear. Not sure how a federal prosecutor would prove racial animosity beyond a reasonable doubt but were a jury to see the lies this man told to avoid prison I think they might be moved to err on the side of a guilty verdict on whatever evidence was offered, even of it was only “coons/punks.”
Anyone with ears in their head can tell GZ didn’t say “punks,” and if he’d actually said something as innocuous as “cold,” he surely would have copped to that.
Even if GZ does have some black ancestry, it would not preclude him being racist (it didn’t stop J. Edgar Hoover).
I think that if the feds look at the totality of the available evidence, they’ll see a manipulative, lying predator (GZ).
Financial disclosure from GZ:
Jeff Weiner Twitter Image File
Affadavit of Indigency ( I had trouble reading this one, possibly because everybody and their brother is trying to hit it):
flcourts18
This is depressing. All he’s left with is 140$, a name and a birth date.
Why isn’t his truck on the affidavit? It was parked on SS’s driveway.
Good point. Blue book on a standard-equipped 2008 Ridgeline RTS (I don’t know if his is an RTS or an RTL):
Blue Book
I think he’d really develop high anxiety if he had to part with his wheels.
Oops, ZIP code matters somewhat. I did it again using Sanford’s ZIP:
Excellent
$13,879
Very Good
$13,579
Good
$12,979
Fair
$11,379
He was in debt prior to his killing of TM. So, he may not really own the Ridgeline.
Let’s ask Capital One…
Well, that’s true, he may still have been making truck payments. He did have a number of payments to Capitol One in the released bank records.
I myself felt a bit frustrated that they didn’t release records for the previous month. Those could have disclosed another stressor that factored into his state of mind on February 26, 2012.
News reports relating suicidal actions of GZ make me wonder what strain his lies and guilt are causing him. My impression is that he never told anyone the whole truth regarding the car to pedestrian chase that precipitated the physical altercation in the dog walk area.
He’s exhibited narcissistic and sociopathic activity but were he 100% sociopathic why is he so depressed?
I have little to no sympathy for his mental plight but I’d like to see him hang around long enough to face the truth if not actual legal justice.
If you’ll recall, this is not the first time GZ has made suicidal noises. He’s been doing that for years, and I suspect it’s just another of his tools for manipulating people.
As Frank Zappa would have told him, there’s nothing worse than a suicide chump.
One of GZ’s current public defenders opined that he didn’t appear to be a suicide risk.
Yeah, it’d be nice if he would ‘man up’ and tell the truth. That might actually get him some of that respect he appears to crave so desperately.
A possible overdose seems different than repeated threats to kill one’s self over a potential breakup. But yes i agree he is a manipulator and a liar. Shrieb’s account of an episode with sleeping pills may or may not be a credible one and if it is we don’t know what GZs intentions were. (I’m not sure i care, either except that I want te truth to come out and this killer to face up to his lies.)
Sleeping pills? How “Valley of the Dolls” is that?
Daily Mail 20131120
His ex fiancee claimed he would threaten to kill himself regularly. Threatening suicide is common behavior for domestic abusers.
Amsterdam, I wasn’t really even aware that that was a common tactic, but a quick look around the Net tells me you’re right.
I don’t think GZ’s a sociopath My guess for quite some time has been a personality disorder, most likely narcissistic personailty.
“Unlike a Narcissist, a Sociopath has no underlying neediness for others approval. His remorseless behavior does not stem from a deep insecurity, like a Narcissist. Instead, he desires to exploit others simply for his entertainment and amusement.” http://tinyurl.com/lcznugc
GZ certainly could have NPD; he fits the profile quite well.
I was under the same impression that GZ has NPD but again I’m not a specialist.
Well, I’m definitely not a specialist, and guilty of slinging the term “sociopath” around as a generic way of saying, “This guy is messed up.”
Heh. I missed noticing this earlier. Do you realize that this would indeed make GZ a millionaire in Rom society? Gypsies consider somebody who’s spent a million dollars to be a ‘millionaire.’
O’Connor woke up again:
zimmermanverdict dot net 20131118
Hmmm, what century should I set my alarm clock for?
I’m so convinced that this guy is narcissistic. But I now wonder if he does not actually suffer from Narcissistic Personality Disorder. What happened on Monday may have been Narcissistic Rage triggered by miss Scheibe insulting his ego by putting his stuff outside the house.
People with NPD always manipulate and abuse the ones that are close to them while being seen very positively by the one that are not close enough to see through the self-aggrandizing smoke they consistently throw.
We’ve seen quite a bit of people explaining how great, charming, helpful GZ is. We’ve heard so many stories about him wanting to build his life, have a family, have a business, go back to school, become a police officer and finally become a defense attorney. This is all smoke. He’s never had the ability to do anything.
Yup, I suspect that how successful any one narcissist is in delaying discovery by others is determined in no small part by the amount of charm, intelligence, and talent they possess.
One of the links for narcissistic rage I found talked about Steve Jobs being a “rageaholic.” He was a guy with a lot of charm, intelligence, and talent, but he wasn’t necessarily mentally and emotionally healthy.
Please understand that I’m not comparing GZ to SJ except in a possible capacity for rage when they meet with any kind of resistance. };-)
Well, this Click Orlando piece had at least one tidbit that caught my eye:
Click Orlando 20131120
That could answer the question “Was there anybody with GZ on his TX trip?” as well as support speculation that SZ asking for custody of the dogs was a kind of bargaining chip.
Poor doggies, I want them to have a good home–away from all the craziness that surrounds the Zimmermans.
Well, people with NPD are generally not violent although in some extreme cases they can go down that way. The fact is that there is such a thing as Narcissistic Rage. But then, given that he was medically followed, I would expect that they would have diagnosed him with NPD.
From the discoveries, we know that GZ had been seeing a psychologist, but his defense team was successful in suppressing any details about why.
I suspect his family knew he was a mess, but after he committed homicide, they ‘closed ranks,’ around him, because the truth about GZ might reveal too much truth about the whole family.
With regard to narcissistic rage: the Net is full of references, but I found this one interesting from a layperson perspective:
After Psychotherapy 20110427
I don’t know how reliable RS is worth as a news source but if what they report is right then whaooo!
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/11/20/girlfriend-zimmerman-alone-depressed-and-obsessed-with-guns-after-acquittal/
This is so messed up:
Messed up if true, but messed up even if it isn’t (just messed up for a different person or group of people).
No matter how you slice it, there’s another generation of people growing up potentially damaged.
Sheibe and her Mom are messed up whether or not they invented that story about GZ sending explicit pictures to the young girl.
As you wrote, you have to be troubled to invent such thing. Particularly, that you’ll have nothing to show to back up such horrible claims.
If the story is true, then the question is why didn’t they break up right there, call police and seek protection. Is Samantha Sheibe some kind of submissive person?
Dunno, but I read somewhere (Nettle’s blog, I think, and no way to tell if it’s true) that Scheibe’s child is 8 years old. Do the math on that: if Sheibe is 27, then she was only about 19 when her daughter was born.
Who and were is the father? And if she’s possibly pregnant again (by GZ–Ugh!), that would be two children that may need therapy.
Scheibe’s mother doesn’t exactly sound like she’s June Cleaver.
IMHO, Scheibe’s disclosures are helping fill in the blanks regarding the Martin shooting. She says GZ and SZ did have a big fight about their separation on 2/26/12. And, as a narcissist, GZ flips out whenever the world does not bend to his will, and his self-image. So, mere minutes after SZ calls him and no doubt gives him an earful of guff, he’s out cruising RATL with a gun looking to re-affirm his manhood. (I.e. we seem to have confirmation of ‘the domestic hypothesis’.) Then poor Trayvon gives GZ the smallest amount of talkback – “What you following me for”, and that pops the fuse…
Yup. TM probably was out there in the darkened courtyard, thinking that he’d lost the creepy-ass guy, and was trying to finish up his conversation with RJ before he went inside the Green town home where young Chad was. GZ suddenly reappeared–from the south.
“What you following me for?” would be a reasonable question that a reasonable person should have been able to answer calmly.
However, I suspect an angry (for many reasons, the most recent being an ‘unsatisfying’ three-minute phone conversation with an estranged spouse) GZ’s answer was “What are you doing around here?!” followed by a push or a grab. It deteriorated from there into a chase back northward, and then the final wrestling match.
Why did GZ feel he ‘needed’ to shoot TM is still a question.
Panic? I don’t think so. That single bullet through the heart belies panic.
A cold realization that he’d gone too far, and needed to silence forever his victim (TM)? Possibly.
Anger, because this uppity “kid” wouldn’t just submit (how dare he not respect my authority?!) That seems like a very real possibility for a narcissist.
“GZ suddenly reappeared–from the south.”
And exactly where were both standing at the time?
You realize that any “chase back northward” would require that Zimmerman be able to run faster than Martin in order to catch him, right?
unitron,
Obviously, I don’t know exactly where they both were standing; I’m speculating.
A chase back northward would not necessarily have been one continuous sprint halted by one ‘catch,’ but rather could have been a series of movements/struggles, with TM repeatedly trying to shake loose a persistent GZ.
Apparently I’m not getting email notifications about every post in this thread by quite a great margin.
I just don’t see Zimmerman being able to run fast enough to outrun Martin, and I don’t see Martin being able to drag Zimmerman from Brandy’s porch all the way back up to near the “T”, especially not without creating some sort of evidence, like drag marks in the grass, and to do so in such silence that no one heard anything out of them until they got to the houses at the northern end of the long north-south sidewalk, nor do I see Zimmerman being able to grab Martin right outside Brandy’s and drag him all the way back up north without that same evidence being created.
Unitron,
It’s all speculation. Even assuming that TM ran south home and doubled back north to confront GZ is a speculation.
The only fact is that they both had time to walk much longer distances than you can fit in the area the Zim claimed all happened.
Obviously one hypothesis is that TM walked home and doubled back to the T while GZ was standing still.
You can also mirror this hypothesis and claiming that TM stood still somewhere around the north part of the dog walk while GZ ran south.
I ran a simulator to calculate the number of paths and found nearly 50,000 for both guys to end up in JGood’s backyard in the 2.5 minutes following the end of GZ’s NEN call.
I have no doubt that there exists hundreds if not thousands of possible ways GZ could have caught up on TM as there exists thousands of ways TM could have taken to loose GZ without leading him home.
I understand that for the trial, all we were left with were GZ’s & Jeantel stories. I realize that the Jurors believed GZ over the girl. Yet, I have no doubt that was a mistake 1st because GZ had good reasons to lie, 2nd because his story doesn’t make sense on too many accounts, 3rd because he’s a proven liar & 4th because there are many signs that he is deranged.
Unfortunately Rachel was never really pinned down on exact chronology, so we don’t know if the verbal exchange she says happened occurred immediately after the part where she says Trayvon was right by Brandy’s house, or if there was enough intervening time for him to have returned northwards to the “T”.
She doesn’t really say anything about a foot chase immediately preceding the verbal exchange, so her version and Zimmerman’s are not necessarily in conflict as to who was where when.
You’re right that it shows at least that all was not rosy in that couple on the days and hours before the killing.
GZ was not in a normal situation going out for weekly grocery shopping. That was a lie.
His wife was gone after one more argument. He had a mistress and I now expect some of the many texts he had on Sunday to be with Sheibe.
He had multiple texts with family in VA. II believe I read that he was not in good terms with them either.
He had a text then a call from his wife ~15-20min before he went out. She was not calling about grocery shopping. That’s BS. They either talked about coming back together or about splitting and divorce. The call was brief (3min). No lengthy “I love you baby. You’re all I have in my life. Sniff, Cry Cry, blow in a tissue”. It seems to me that it was more like: “You’re still there? You have 30min to get out of my house! Yes, it’s my house. What don’t you get in ‘it’s my house’.”.
Following Shellie’s call he had 3 more texts with family in VA.
After the killing the 1st family person he asked to contact was his wife. That’s the “Just tell her that I shot someone.” episode. I’m really puzzled by was going on in his mind then.
Yup, GZ was texting fast and furious right up to that last message to Alexandria, VA at straight-up 16:00 PST (19:00 EST):
June 27 (2013) Exhibits and Identification List
Perhaps GZ needed some ego reinforcement after the 3 minute phone conversation with his estranged spouse at 18:48 EST.
Hey, perhaps he was going to visit Scheibe when he left the townhouse (he couldn’t very well admit that).
Or, unable to get any satisfaction from his circle of ‘loved ones,’ he headed out the door for the express purpose of finding some Neighborhood Watch ‘validation.’
He sure couldn’t admit that after he killed TM.
I think he was patrolling the area. Couple of things that bother me.
1) six cars past by the mail area between the time we think Trayvon arrived at the mail area and GZ’s arrival. I just think that is a high number of cars, considering the number of residents that would take that route.
2) I never believed there was a second person in GZ’s car during the nen call. I cannot imagine Trayvon not mentioning a second person in the car to Rachel. But during the trial, I was watching the video walk through again, and I suddenly noticed a GZ remark. He said about Trayvon ” he was trying to see who else was in my ….I don’t know what he was looking at”. I think it is possible GZ was in one of the cars passing by the mail area, before making his call.
3) i think we agree GZ was parked at the curb opposite the mail area, when Trayvon started walking again. Trayvon would’ve passed GZ’s car either on the grassy area to the left, or in the middle of the road to the right of GZ’s car. I think GZ followed Trayvon in his car, hugging the curb. I think it would be unnatural, to walk in the middle of the street with a car right behind you. I think Trayvon would’ve moved more to the right or to the left, depending on which side he was when GZ started following him in his car. In either case, I don’t think the cut-through to RVC, wouldn’t have been a logical path for Trayvon to try to ditch GZ.
“But during the trial, I was watching the video walk through again, and I suddenly noticed a GZ remark. He said about Trayvon ‘he was trying to see who else was in my ….I don’t know what he was looking at’.”
Ooo, he almost said something ‘interesting,’ but stopped himself. And no one ever followed up.
” I think it is possible GZ was in one of the cars passing by the mail area, before making his call.”
So whose car do you think he might have been in, however briefly?
“3) i think we agree GZ was parked at the curb opposite the mail area, when Trayvon started walking again. Trayvon would’ve passed GZ’s car either on the grassy area to the left, or in the middle of the road to the right of GZ’s car. I think GZ followed Trayvon in his car, hugging the curb. I think it would be unnatural, to walk in the middle of the street with a car right behind you. I think Trayvon would’ve moved more to the right or to the left, depending on which side he was when GZ started following him in his car. In either case, I don’t think the cut-through to RVC, wouldn’t have been a logical path for Trayvon to try to ditch GZ.”
If I recall correctly, you once postulated that TM might have ducked in behind one of the buildings at the top of the T (“run from the back”), didn’t you?
In that case, GZ’s excited utterance “He ran” would mean that TM disappeared going not south, but north…
@wordsalad
I always thought Trayvon ran north, because I believe Trayvon was walking south or was about to head south on the dog walk, when GZ caught up with him.
Tchoupi showed that there were many possible routes Trayvon and GZ could’ve taken, but if Tayvon was walking on the right side of GZ’s car, it would’ve made sense that he would’ve ducked between one of the gaps between the houses on the north south leg of TTL, instead of taking the long route passing in front of GZ’s car to make it into the cut- through.
Thank you. Yes, it’s all speculation, because there is only one surviving full witness, and his story just does not add up.
It could have been his little way of telling her, “This is your fault, woman.” Because nothing is ever the narcissist’s fault.
His so formal, “Just tell her I shot someone” always bothered me. Maybe his way of saying “Look what I can do… once I get mad” or in other words “You’d better be careful or…” .
You could be right. It might have been a “Watch your step, woman o’ mine” warning.
Whatever GZ meant, it even sounded odd to Manalo because of the brusque, matter-of-fact tone.
What, you mean you’re not getting enough emails? };-)
If memory serves, the cordon area only extended as far south as the town house at 1311 Twin Trees Lane. I have to wonder how hard they looked, or if they just took GZ’s story at face value.
Remember, Tim Smith knew who GZ was because he had been a responder to the February 2, 2012 incident at Taaffe’s place (and GZ was identified as Neighborhood Watch on that report).
At any rate, neither would have necessarily had to drag the other. It could have been a standing altercation with periodic ‘partings,’ and it only deteriorated into a prone wrestling match when they got within the vicinity of 1221 TTL.
“It could have been a standing altercation with periodic ‘partings,’ and it only deteriorated into a prone wrestling match when they got within the vicinity of 1221 TTL.”
Were they calling each other nasty names via sign language during this time?
‘Cause Rachel only relates that one verbal exchange followed by the “push” and then the call hangs up, and the time on her call indicates that it ended about the time the actual physical stuff up around the “T” and John Good’s house started.
Even if Zimmerman set out with murder in his heart that night, we don’t have any decent evidence that their first physical contact wasn’t about when and about where Zimmerman said it happened, even if the what and the how are matters of differing opinions and conjectures.
“Were they calling each other nasty names via sign language during this time?”
Dunno, what’s American Sign Language for “You’re gonna die tonight, MoFo!” Well, and while you’re doing that, your opponent is killing you for real.
Per the State’s timeline, the TM/RJ call ended at 19:15:44 (the defense’s timeline has it end at 19:15:43), and the gunshot at 19:16:55, so that a little over a minute.
Didn’t Witness #18 JS hear voices in the courtyard area twice? That is, she heard voices, then they died down, then she heard voices again.
*shrug* Dunno.
“Even if Zimmerman set out with murder in his heart that night, we don’t have any decent evidence that their first physical contact wasn’t about when and about where Zimmerman said it happened, even if the what and the how are matters of differing opinions and conjectures.”
I don’t know that GZ set out with murder in his heart, but I strongly suspect that he set out with ‘collar’ in his heart.
You could have said at “We don’t have any decent evidence. Stop.”
Except GZ’s story is so full of holes we know he can’t have been telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Oh wait, that’s when they swear a person in to testify…
Did you mean “set out with ‘cholera’ in his heart” or we don’t use “collar” like you do over there.
Even if Zimmerman set out with murder in his heart that night, we don’t have any decent evidence that their first physical contact wasn’t about when and about where Zimmerman said it happened, even if the what and the how are matters of differing opinions and conjectures.
Except the NEN call: Those aholes always get away.
And the fact that we can hear George exclaim: ‘Sheeeeeeeeeeet he’s running!!’ while we hear George running after Trayvon.
Then we hear George stop running and the dispatcher ask him if he’s chasing Trayon. When George answers in the affirmative we can hear George stop running.
I don’t know about you, but it shouldn’t have taken George over two minutes to have walked that short distance back to his truck.
I’m with ya, Roderick2012.
From the time GZ said “Okay” to the dispatcher (acknowledging that following TM was a bad thing) to the connection time of the first 911 call was over four minutes. What the heck was he doing all that time besides hunting TM?
Add in that GZ appeared to be in a less-than-ideal mental/emotional state that evening: (a) his slurred speech (b) his terrible direction-giving (c) his “excited utterances” (“These assholes, they always get away,” and “Fucking c**ns”), and last but not least, that phone call from his wife at 18:48.
If Christi O’Connor has anything about that last item (or indeed anything potentially inculpatory in her book), but she comes forward with it too late, she and her ‘sources’ might want to change their names and go into hiding. There would be a lot of people unhappy with them, to say the least.
I can’t quite make up my mind who it is that I’m the most put out with: GZ the lying killer, or his enablers who apparently are legion.
GZ has already killed one person, and may well kill again, but his enablers are setting the stage for even more tragic killings by maladjusted jerks like him.
As with his NEN call on 2/26/12, there are several points in GZ’s 911 call following the arrival of the police at Scheibe’s where he is obviously lying. The richest one is that despite being recorded physically pushing her out of her own house on her call, he tells the 911 operator he won’t go outside to talk to the police because he doesn’t want to upset her, with her being pregnant and all…
Didn’t MOM say “Either he’s a pathological liar or he’s telling the truth…” I’ll take door number one Monty!
Yah, so much kinder, gentler, to shove your baby-mama out the door of her home.
“Didn’t MOM say ‘Either he’s a pathological liar or he’s telling the truth…’ I’ll take door number one Monty!”
O’Mara might not have known much of anything about GZ when he first took the case, but by the time he got him off the hook, he probably knew plenty. He’s been trying to rehabilitate his image ever since.
Notice how wide of a berth he’s giving GZ’s latest troubles? “It would be inappropriate for me to comment.”
Unfortunately, Jeantel was an ear witness, not an eye witness. TM didn’t necessarily tell her every single thing that was going on.
Also, she could only answer questions asked. The state did a pretty wretched job overall, and the defense wasn’t about to try to elicit any information from Jeantel that might have cast more doubt on their client.
Jeantel was widely pilloried on the Net for her assertion that she could “hear” the grass when TM’s phone/headset hit the ground, so…oh, lump it, she was widely pilloried on the Net for everything.
gbrbsb,
Hey, don’t forget that an exasperated George Harrison wrote about his country:
“Now my advice for those who die\Declare the pennies on your eyes.”
Johnny Lennon did lurve his free “Nasty Health” wire-rimmed glasses, though.
};-)
Heh! Put that on the list of things I don’t want to see photographs of.
Not even in National Geographic ?
Out in the middle of Grosvenor Square. Nah, not even the best photographer could make that look good.
Unitron, nobody dragged anybody across a long distance What Jeantel seems to be describing is a final chase leading to verbal and then physical confrontations in the last 1 or 2 minutes.
What I know is that Jeantel’s story does not contradict the timing set by the phone records:
7:13:23 GZ “Actually, could you have them [police ofc] to call me and I’ll tell you where I’m at?”
7:13:39 GZ hangs up
7:15:43 TM’s communication dies.
7:16:11 W11 connects with 911
7:16:41 W03 connects with 911
7:16:56 Gunshot
There is no doubt in my mind that GZ was after TM.
GZ lost TM as he states in his NEN call at 7:12:11 and as Jeantel testified TM told her so after reconnecting at 7:12:06. This is perfectly in line.
Now something made GZ changed his mind 16sec before hanging up. What he then said, makes it clear that he was not going back to his truck, and he knew that he had no idea where he will be by the time police arrives. I can only conclude that he was on a hunt and probably that the chase was about to start.
As I stated in an earlier comment, nobody knows but GZ where both guys where at that exact moment he hang up. In any cases, we know that they ended up in JGood’s backyard at 7:15:43 when TM’s cell phone died out in the grass as described by Jeantel.
We also know that the verbal confrontation occurred in the seconds prior to the phone falling in the grass. This is compatible with Jeantel’s testimony.
What is compatible with GZ’s story is that the verbal confrontation started near the T before rushing south to JGood’s backyard. Indeed, the witnesses in 1211 TTL & 2861 RVC clearly testified about the yells coming from the T. The only other witness who heard the initial verbal confrontation is JSurdyka , She lives right north from the T. All other witnesses where located further south and did not hear that initial confrontation or could not locate it.
It takes less than 10sec to rush from the T to the location of the TM’s cell phone. So, it is pretty safe to say that both men were near the T at about 7:15:30.
How did they end up there is a mystery that only GZ can solve if only he could tell the truth. He has a 2min gap in his story. This gap can be partially explained by Jeantel’s description of a chase. Wit #01 also made an attempt by telling at trial about a south to north foot chase.
There literally are thousands of ways they could have met at the T in the 2min following the end of GZ’s NEN call. GZ’s story is not one of them. However, Jeantel’s chase makes a lot of sense.
There’s no other way Zimmerman and Martin travel well over a hundred feet from the same starting point and wind up in the same place at the same time unless Trayvon was on crutches.
Otherwise there’s no way he can’t outrun Zimmerman.
So they reached the point where they wound up together travelling separately from different directions.
Although I don’t have anything to judge his physical abilities, I too believe that TM could have out run GZ.
But did heveven try? Jeantel’s testimony depicts the kid as being frustrated with that guy still being after him minutes after he thought having lost him. So, in the frame of her story, the kid was in a way standing his ground by refusing to run where he rightfully could walk.
If there was a chase, there’s no way Trayvon doesn’t outrun George if George is on foot, where he was foolish enough to be (but that’s just bad judgement, not illegal).
Therefore, there was no chase.
They got where they wound up traveling separately along separate routes.
*wheeze*
Love (and Death) in the Time of Cholera
I meant “collar” in the American law enforcement slang sense: to apprehend a suspect. In the ‘good old days,’ they might have literally grabbed some reprobate by the collar.
I think it was one of the two King Charles of England who said “Speak English with thine enemies” because it’s such a slippery, confusing language.
I just realized that you might have meant “choler,” as in irritability.
Yeah, it seems more than possible that GZ set out with “choler” in his heart.
Sorry confusion, I am not all here tonight so please *wheeze* away.
Of course… “The policeman collared the thief as he ran down the street”. We use it the same way so what was I thinking ?!
And “cholera”. Yes I meant “choler” but without knowing it as was my bilingualism mixing two spellings rather than my mastery of English, i.e. “Cólera” – Spanish for anger, rage mixed with “Choleric” – English for anger, and a lengthy list of synonyms that all could be George, i.e. bad-tempered, irascible, irritable, cantankerous, ill-tempered, ill-natured, ill-humoured, peevish, cross, fractious, disagreeable, pettish, short-tempered, hot-tempered, quick-tempered, dyspeptic, bilious, liverish, etc.
gbrbsb,
Please forgive me; I didn’t wheeze to be mean to you.
I only wheezed initially because I though you were, as they say in your country, “having me on.”
It was only later that I realized it might be a bonafide language/spelling problem. I know you’re British, but that your first language isn’t English.
Speaking my crazy mother tongue (English) gives me enough trouble that I am all admiration for those who tackle it as a second language.
Though I learned Spanish (a beautiful language with remarkably regular grammar and spelling) as a school girl, that was a long time ago, and I wouldn’t dare to say that I can speak it any more.
Lo siento mucho.
No hay de que, WS, no offence taken and when I said “*wheeze* away” I was merely having a poke at my own dimwittedness.
Actually my first language is English but my many years in Spain rarely speaking it left Spanish so ingrained that when tired I often mix words and spellings and even invent words creating my very own “espanglish”. And tonight my usually dependable spell check couldn’t help as “cholera” is indeed an English word… just not the right one!
Hmmm, this has a semi-familiar sound about it:
TMZ 20131121
I think he said something similar about his ex-fiancee back in 2005, i.e., that she wanted him to stay when he wanted to leave.
The guy must be more charming than Arnold the pig to have women fighting to keep him any way they can…
In his 911 call GZ clear states that she asked him to leave to raise their kid alone.
Well, exactly. He didn’t quite have his story lined up straight, did he?
Overall, it looks like another case of GZ ‘flipping’ words and actions to make himself look like the victim.
I do hope Scheibe isn’t pregnant, and not only because of the possibility that it’s GZ’s offspring.
Some reports (OK, blogs) are now saying that Scheibe’s existing child is 10. That would make SS only 17 when she was born.
Like the dogs, all the children (real and potential) are blameless in this circus, and deserve a stable environment.
SZ talks to the press again, this time Katie Couric:
Orlando Sentinel 20131121
Heh. A lot of people might not believe that could happen, but I do.
I used to know a very smart young woman who was in school to become a multi-lingual administrative assistant. She had to learn quite a few languages as a consequence.
Sometimes she would be so tired after a long day at school that she would have trouble remembering the word for something in her native language, and her brother would get angry with her.
This was an ill-considered observation. Arnold Ziffel was entirely charming, and GZ isn’t fit to wipe his hooves.
And his girlfriends were way hotter.
Many things are possible; what GZ claims happened is not possible.
He chased the teen off the roadway with his moving car. This is a crime and moves any later activity into the realm of illegal activity. Whatever happened, GZ has lied about how and why he arrived at the point of physical confrontation and should not have been able to make a claim of justifiable homicide.
willisnewton,
I couldn’t agree more.
Here’s an opinion piece that makes some interesting observations:
George Zimmerman: I pity the fool
The title says it well, I think. OK, I did love Mr. T’s signature expression “I pity the fool!” but besides that, there are important differences between sympathy, empathy, and pity.
I think that writer identified what I’ve been having occasional twinges of: pity.
That’s a serious blind spot that you have Unitron.
I’m no sport person but I know that I can chase and catch Ussain Bolt as long as he refuses to run. The only condition is that I run faster than he walks.
“I’m no sport person but I know that I can chase and catch Ussain Bolt as long as he refuses to run.”
Heh. As old Ed McMahon would say, “You are correct, sir!”
Beyond that, it was more than bad judgment for GZ to have been out there in the courtyard. It’s patently obvious from his own words/actions that he was out there as part of a sustained hunt of TM.
Sounds pretty illegal to me.
Intimidating someone with your vehicle is part and parcel if the stalking law on the florida statues, as is continuing to follow someone. Most of the obvious contradictions GZ told the Sanford investigators are ones regarding his stalking with the car. We can’t know for certain what other lies he’s telling about what happened later, but the truth is easily established by comparing his NEN call remarks to a map, and using a stopwatch to posit where TM and GZ may have been when the key exchange happens:
“He’s by the clubhouse now?”
“Yeah, and now he’s coming towards me.”
Soon after the teen seems to pass the vehicle, and after that the teen is said to run away.
These moments exist on a timeline and can be plotted fairly accurately within a narrow range of possibility.
Doing this first, and independently, you come up with a story that matches Rachel Jeantel’s account very closely. TM leaves the mail kiosk where he’s being obviously observed by a creepy guy. Then after he starts to walk towards his residence the car follows him and Trayvon begins to run. Jeantel spoke of this moment in the incident in her first interview with Ben Crump but the significance was lost on him at the time. BDLR doesn’t ask her about it directly, but then on the stand, incredibly, Don West makes sure she mentions it, but again the prosecution fails to see the point.
Why and how investigators failed to plot these actions is beyond me. But fail they did and it was reflected in the prosecution’s strategy, with the result that the case for M2 was difficult to prove.
Unitron’s statement is not exactly wrong as it still includes this: “They got where they wound up traveling separately along separate routes.”.
This includes accidental encounter or more likely an ambush.
The question is who was ambushing who and I think Unitron believes GZ’s words that it was TM who ambushed him.
In the end, Unitron is right that this is a way the encounter could have happened although I don’t see the ambush as being excluding a chase as claimed by Jeantel who said “The man cornered Trayvon”.
Yes, at what point does anyone being hounded by GZ get to stand their ground?
One of the residents of the Retreat said that GZ would follow him around every time he went jogging. The resident finally ‘gave up,’ and started doing his jogging outside the Retreat.
Well, that was a solution of sorts, but it was another situation where GZ ‘won.’
Unfortunately, GZ has been enabled, directly or otherwise, for far too long.
Would you believe accidental ambush?
: – )
We have Zimmerman’s version where both *could* have wound up around the “T” at the same time by chance, and Martin slugging him could have been a spur of the moment decision, rather than a planned ambush by Martin.
Zimmerman, if telling the truth, knows he got hit, but has no way to know how far in advance it was planned.
And we have Rachel’s “there was an exchange of words and then a sound like somebody pushed somebody”, which neither proves nor disproves an intent by either party to ambush the other or any pre-meditation by either, or whether they wound up in the same place at the same time by chance or by the design of one party or the other. If Trayvon intended an ambush all along, it’s possible he might not have confided this to her.
What I believe is that there wasn’t enough specificity to Rachel’s testimony to convince a jury that Zimmerman’s version wasn’t possible.
And I believe we’re better off with the burden of proof we currently require than one that enhances the chances of convicting the guilty by enhancing the chances of convicting anyone and everyone.
What a ‘prince’ Frank Taaffe is:
Mother Jones – Why Do CNN and HLN Keep Giving Airtime to George Zimmerman’s White-Power Buddy?
With ‘friends’ like this, does GZ really need enemies?
‘Interesting’ spin from Jack Cashill:
American ‘Thinker’ 20131122
Eh, Cashill could actually be right on this one little thing: the hyphen might be in the wrong place in the reportage of “creepy ass cracker.”
However, for those who insist that TM (by way of RJ’s testimony) intended a racial slur in the use of the term cracker, they’re overlooking Jeantel’s testimony that TM later referred to GZ as a “n*gga.”
That suggests to me two things (a) terms like “cracker,” and “n*gga” don’t necessarily mean the same things to Jeantel’s generation as they do to others (b) after TM walked by GZ’s truck, and presumably got a closer look at the “creepy ass cracker,” he may have decided that GZ didn’t look quite so ‘white.’
But, hey, have your way. Whatever else he is, GZ certainly strikes me as “creepy.”
That’s an awfully broad definition of “chase” you’re using there.
Definition of chase, courtesy of Merriam Webster:
M-W dot com
‘Interesting’ that the number one definition is to hunt a wild animal. Yechnique and speed might change depending on whether one is hunting a cheetah or a three-toed sloth, however.
Nice work WS. But further proof that a chase is a chase is a chase whichever way you look at it becomes even clearer when you compare “chase”. “capture” and “catch”.
Origins given by the Oxford Dictionary (our side of the pond’s English language bible):
I rest our (tchoupi too) case.
gbrbsb,
Thanks for the info from the Oxford English Dictionary info. It’s a very much respected authority here on the west side of the Atlantic as well. However, it seemed like every time I tried to use it, I would hit a pay wall.
A quick check today shows me that OED now has a (US) version that’s free:
OED
Oops, there are many more definitions of the word “chase” even at m-w dot com, but you can follow the link…
Nobody takes a huge risk with challenging my English… Ohhh poor me!!!
Do the following help?
1) The chaser moves after and follows the chased, trying to close the gap. The chased would have to try keeping some gap.
2) The ambush-er stays immobile waiting for the ambushed to close the gap before suddenly revealing himself. The ambushed is not aware of the presence of the ambush-er until the moment he reveals himself.
Maybe your concern is that I do not imply, with that definition of Chase, that the chased tries hard getting away?
If that’s the case, then it might be a better word in the English vocabulary for describing the situation. I just don’t know it.
“Nobody takes a huge risk with challenging my English…Ohhh poor me!!!”
Heh. Hey, you’re not developing a ‘victim,’ complex, are you?
You know very well that unitron is just being contrarian, and probably would have taken exception to any synonym for “chase” that you employed.
I don’t know why he hasn’t been all over me for using the word “hunt,” but, hey, give him time. };-)
Oh yoo hoo…unitron…
Hey, I can buy an encounter by ‘accident,’ in the sense that neither expected to encounter the other precisely where and when they did.
It’s my belief that TM hadn’t expected to encounter GZ at all, that he thought he’d given the ‘creep’ the slip. I think that GZ had resumed an active hunt for TM, but may not have expected to encounter him exactly where he did.
As to TM being the aggressor, I’m just not buying it. GZ is the one with the documented history of violence. Incident after incident–that predates his killing of TM by years.
As to the philosophy of us being better off letting 100 guilty people go rather than convicting one innocent person: it sounds good in theory, but we’ve already got any number of innocent people in prison–and a lot of guilty, dangerous people walking around free.
And last but not least, can you honestly tell me that you’d want GZ as a neighbor? Or as a relative by marriage?
“…we’ve already got any number of innocent people in prison–and a lot of guilty, dangerous people walking around free.”
True, but I can’t think of any other burden of proof that would impose justice on even more of the guilty AND protect even more of the innocent.
Our system of justice looks good overall on paper, but all too often it falls flat on its face, either through incompetence or corruption, or some combination thereof.
I can’t say exactly why it failed in this case, only that it sure looks like a fail to me.
Unitron: “What I believe is that there wasn’t enough specificity to Rachel’s testimony to convince a jury that Zimmerman’s version wasn’t possible.”
It goes beyond that. Unfortunately, for some reasons, she was not trusted.
In terms of specificity, there is only so much you can expect from a ear witness with no knowledge of the area where the event took place. And yet, she described GZ in his truck watching TM. She described TM running away and loosing GZ for some time. She described the verbal altercation that many witnesses heard prior to the scuffle. She described the sound of the cell phone falling in the grass.
Again she was just not dependable to too many in the Jury.
The sound of the grass is mock-able when it comes from Jeantel but is dramatic when it comes Lauer.
It doesn’t matters that GZ cannot tell what he did for 2min but Jeantel’s telling us that he cornered the kid and ran after him should discarded.
How cares about GZ’s physically impossible description of TM’s actions prior to his running away, because the Jeantel’s simple description of TM standing at a shed being watch must be a fantasy.
On the other end GZ was given a huge pass.
GZ said he stepped out of his truck to look for an address. What’s wrong with that? If you believe GZ strong enough that recorded NEN call won’t matter anymore.
GZ said that he was savagely attacked. Look, he had to have huge band-aids. It does not matter that it was all superficial. His bio was all right.
My addendum to Tchoupi’s solid response.
There’s no reason to doubt Rachel Jeantel’s testimony, which remained remarkably steadfast from Crump’s awful recording to her taking the witness stand (aside from a few minor inconsistencies which, as Jeralyn Merritt has assured us, is both expected and reasonable). RJ’s statements correspond with Zimmerman’s words to the NEN dispatcher and to the time frame of the entire incident.
RJ testified that Trayvon took shelter beneath the roofed mailbox “shed.” Zimmerman told the NEN dispatcher that the best address he could provide was the clubhouse, and that both he and the ‘suspicious’ person were near the clubhouse. At no time did he mention the 1460 RVC address to the dispatcher, and there are a number of reasons why his subsequent mentions of that address to the police were utterly false. Neither did he, as he later told the police, park at the clubhouse; surveillance tapes show that no vehicle parked there during the time in question.
RJ testified that Zimmerman followed/drove behind Trayvon up to the cut-thru, confirmed by Zimmerman’s actions and statements. RJ testified that Trayvon ran away; Zimmerman confirmed.
What RJ could not know was the direction Trayvon ran towards, or the precise meaning of “near” or “close by” his “daddy’s house” as defined by Trayvon. All she could recount is that he ran for a time, stopped and seemed assured that he’d “lost” the guy following him, proceeded to walk towards home, noted that the guy had reappeared and was following him, refused to run again, turned around when the guy was approaching him, and asked “What are you following me for?” To which RJ heard an “older” man’s voice asking in turn, “What are doing around here?”
What we know is that, despite his written and oral statements to the contrary, Zimmerman did not immediately return to his truck either during or after his NEN call. We also know that his narrative quickly dropped the suspicious-guy-hiding-in-bushes-and-calling-him-“homie” drivel, and that an ambush is not defined by someone walking towards another and calling attention to himself by asking, “Do you have a problem?” (according to Zimmerman’s version). We know that it would be clearly obvious to Trayvon that Zimmerman’s response, “No, I don’t have a problem,” was a lie, and we know that it’s highly implausible that either Zimmerman was searching/reaching for his cell phone or that, under the circumstances, Trayvon would expect this to be so as opposed to, let’s say, Zimmerman reaching for what could be a weapon.
And only those with dubious ethics would question a person’s right to defend himself in that situation. That is, of course, if we accept Zimmerman’s story that Trayvon punched him in the nose.
That story is interesting for another reason. According to Zimmerman, he was able to get to his feet and move away; in the reenactment video, he shows how he moved southward while “swatting” at Trayvon behind him. Why would Zimmerman move south – Trayvon’s destination – rather than west towards his truck?
Trayvon was attempting to run away. Zimmerman was determined to stop him.
Woo! Excellent. This isn’t so much an addendum, but a prequel and sequel:
We now have an allegation by Witness # 13 Jonathan Manalo that back in November 2011, GZ’s response to a UPS delivery man knocking on his door in broad daylight was to appear with his firearm drawn.
Add in that during the domestic dispute in September 2013, SZ expressed concern that GZ was threatening her and her father with a firearm. She later withdrew this allegation, but was it an unreasonable assumption?
They’d found packaging in the rental property for an Uncle Mike’s Law Enforcement Cross Harness Horizontal.
Wasn’t GZ seen in the home security video with his hand on that part of his torso where a firearm would be while wearing said harness?
Whether or not he was actually wearing the firearm at that time, a gesture like that could certainly come off as an implied threat.
Now, in November 2013, we have information that GZ has a shotgun, an assault rifle, and two handguns, and allegedly threatened his girlfriend with the shotgun, and broke a glass coffee table with the butt of it.
What is the likelihood that GZ didn’t have his handgun drawn long before he said he did that fateful evening in February 2012?
When he said he reached for his phone, in reality, he probably drew his Kel-Tec PF-9.
All right, this comment about Frank Taaffe as spokeman for GZ made me wheeze:
Media Matters 20131122
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/zimmermans-omara-settle-lawsuit-with-security-company/-/1637132/23112516/-/dwxo24/-/index.html
Click Orlando reports security co. paid 30k to settle lawsuit. ” paid by zimmermans”. No other info reported.
So, who and how was this lawsuit settled?
I’d say “Cue Edith Piaf,” but I don’t know that I want to associate her with this kind of bad craziness:
TMZ George Zimmerman — Gun Group Fronting Him Money … ‘We Regret Nothing’
While I agree overall with Juan Williams’ opinion that GZ is a danger to people of all races:
Fox News 20131120
I don’t think the feds should ignore the fact that GZ uttered the racial slur “F*cking coons” (yes, he did) while persistently pursuing an African American teenager, killing him barely five minutes later.
The case against GZ by his former security contractor was settled (link courtesy of “art tart” at Nettle’s blog):
Click Orlando 20131122
I’m ‘assuming’ that this is in addition to the 2.5 million GZ listed on his affidavit of indigency.
Ya know, I’d feel sympathy for somebody who incurred debt because they had killed an intruder in their home, but that’s not the case here. Not at all…
Aha ! So MOM & Co lied about having paid them !
IMBW. but methinks likely MOM & Co coughed up, (could be from the begging fund but claims were it was all gone on experts, simulations, etc.) seeing as they were in control of costs for their pro bono client and I doubt any security firm deserving of the name would have contracted directly with GZ who was, then as he is now, indigent unless under joint and several liability to cover their back.
Oh, and of course, if MOM & Co did cough up they will add it on the bill if they win his claims against NBC, State of Florida, or any other they may try albeit as I haven’t seen movement on that front so far perhaps they are not seeing it so good as to want to do a whole lot more work on a “no win no fee basis” with George again.
Sure, if they win the NBC lawsuit–but as whonoze pointed out, they should have been thanking their lucky stars NBC didn’t corroborate that GZ said “F*cking coons” during his NEN call.
Aside from my feelings about GZ himself (so very not good), I’m struggling not to be furious with Robert Senior and Gladys Z.
The kind of dysfunction exhibited by GZ usually doesn’t come out of nowhere.
Tell it, Leonard:
Trayvon Martin or George Zimmerman — who’s the real thug?
A little comic relief:
Hollywood Reporter 20131123
From a Saturday Night Live parody of George Zimmer, founder of Men’s Warehouse:
Well, O’Connor has some new information on her ad hoc blog, albeit not the information she promised a couple of months ago:
Zimmerman Verdict dot net 20131125
O’Connor characterizes this update as an “exclusive,” and provides some excerpts from pertinent emails between O’Mara and the security firm, as well as a link to a 73 page PDF of the lawsuit.
An interesting piece from Think Progress about one of the two public defenders (Jeff Dowdy) representing GZ in his current domestic violence case, and his pre-existing connections to Clan Z:
The Curious Case Of George Zimmerman’s Public Defender
Right Wing lawyers for Zimmerma bros :
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/11/25/2988941/curious-case-george-zimmermans-public-defender/
WS got it already.
By a tiny margin of two minutes, tchoupi. I wonder whether wordpress is like T-Mobile? };-)
GZ immediately fired his pro-SYG public defender to hire Jayne Weintraub instead. The thing is that she stated that SYG is awful, that GZ was a wannabe cop and that both GZ & TM were racist.
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/11/25/george-zimmermans-new-attorney-thinks-her-clien/197050
But was she speaking specifically and solely about the actual SYG provisions of Florida’s Justifiable Use of Force law, which remove the duty to retreat but have no bearing on the Zimmerman/Martin case since Zimmerman was unable to retreat, or was she lumping in the separate and not dependent upon the SYG provisions immunity clause put into that law at the same time?
An extremely arguable point that shouldn’t be noted as fact.
Unitron was probably referring to the fact that SYG was not part of GZ’s defense.
That said, it is true that GZ was certainly unable to retreat because in his rages the only way he knows is forward with a gun.
Yup, and Mr. Anger Management’s idea of the “way forward” these days is exemplified by one of his recent purchases: a Kel-Tec shotgun.
I’ve been idly wondering about that target allegedly left behind by GZ in the cul-de-sac rental property.
What’s been troubling me about it is the number of bullet holes in it: 17.
While there are magazines with a 17 cartridge capacity, the Kel-Tec KSG shotgun and their PF-9 pistol are not among the firearms capable of handling them insofar as I can tell.
Either GZ has some other firearm capable of handling a 17-cartridge magazine, or *somebody* deliberately shot that target exactly 17 times for some other reason.
If I catch nemerinys’ drift (via italics), the arguable point would be that GZ was telling the truth about his inability to retreat. I couldn’t agree more.
About the only things I feel we can trust are some of the things he said during his NEN call.
Did the prosecution ever offer up any decent evidence that Zimmerman would have easily been able to get out from under Martin, the situation in which Witness 6 saw them?
No. The prosecution was incompetent throughout the entire court process – hearings, pre-trial, and trial. Whether this was due to genuine or intentional ineptitude is arguable; nonetheless, they either blew it or threw it.
Witness 6 testified that he heard sounds and cries for “help” coming closer to his home, but he didn’t know from which direction. He noted that the man on the bottom was lighter-skinned than the person on top, but he failed to note a bloody face. He testified that he believed the man on the bottom was attempting to get up, but he never saw either person’s hands. He couldn’t see, in short, who was holding onto whom, nor did he see punches or head bashing.
Witness 6 testified that he saw the two persons “move” to the sidewalk, but he failed to describe how this occurred. Not only would such a movement entail rolling up an incline on wet grass, but also revolving from a perpendicular position in front of him to a parallel position once on the sidewalk. I submit that such a movement was beyond the control of Trayvon Martin with his adolescent body development and inferior weight and body mass, and, thus, it would have had to involve George Zimmerman’s willing participation.
The sounds and cries of an argument and a person crying out for help was already in progress when both Witness 11 called 911, and when Witness 6 stepped outside, and then back inside, his back door. Witness 11, I might add, testified that she heard the sounds of movement on the sidewalk and the grass as it moved past her home. The gunshot occurred very shortly thereafter. At just what point in all of this was Trayvon consistently punching Zimmerman in the face and bashing his head into the concrete? How is it that Trayvon was able to physically subdue and maneuver Zimmerman up and down a grassy incline, particularly when this other activity was supposedly taking place? How is it that Zimmerman, in his own words, was able to physically control Trayvon as the latter was allegedly reaching for Zimmerman’s gun, and was able to go through amazing physical contortions with obvious freedom of movement, and yet was unable to retreat?
But, then, Zimmerman always had the freedom to move away, from beginning to end. He simply chose not to do so.
Another entry at O’Connor’s ad hoc zimmermanverdict dot net blog:
zimmermanverdict dot net 20131126
For weeks I’ve been investigating George’s run ins with the law. My findings kept expanding, causing the posting of my stories to be delayed. (I thank you for your patience.) As early as tomorrow, I will post one of my two recent investigations here and on Radaronline.com.
In, “Crimes Of The Heart,” you will learn how George’s cell phones contain evidence pertinent to the case involving Samantha Scheibe. They also contain disturbing insight to his mental health and to his overall credibility as a defendant. In my second investigation, “The Walking Man,” you’ll learn how and when law enforcement officers and agencies ignored evidence and even covered for George. Why would they do it? You can decide after seeing interactions between cops and George caught on tape.
I’m not gonna hold my breath or nothin’, but will keep checking back.
Oh, foofy, another malformed HTML link in comment #5557. What I meant to enter:
zimmermanverdict dot net 20131126
She keeps promising, but I’m with you on the “what century should I set my alarm clock for?”
This is an interesting potential insight about GZ:
Gronda Morin Blog 20131123
I haven’t followed up to see whether the dates on GZ’s troubles with his girlfriend and the undercover cop bear out this observation, but it’s intriguing.
I think Gronda Morin is onto something:
prwatch dot org 20130910
No joy on the actual break-up date for GZ’s affianced relationship with Zuazo, but her statements to the authorities were an interesting reread:
AxiomAmnesia Pages 140-144 of 284
There’s a hint that the undercover cop incident took place while GZ was still living with Zuazo, because the latter says she found out via a phone call from some unidentified female that GZ had been questioned by the police.
There was a whole string of incidents, but Zuazo finally moved out (they had been living together in the Lake Mary house owned by his parents) after she confirmed that GZ had been advertising himself as single on a dating website.
Per Zuazo, GZ tried to win her back, but she wasn’t buying any more ‘smooth’ talk.
What does any of this have to do with homicide? Well, I kinda like Gronda Morin’s theory that GZ becomes ‘erratic’ whenever he doesn’t have a stabilizing female companion.
OK, TMZ didn’t pony up the actual search warrant, but they’re providing some more specific information about the firearms at Scheibe’s place:
TMZ 20131126
To wit:
Interarms .380
Taurus 9mm
Glock 19
Kel-Tec “Shotgun” (no model listed, but the KSG is the only shotgun they make)
AR-15
All right, I’m no gun maven, but a quick look around tells me none of those firearms are compatible with a magazine that has precisely 17 rounds.
A couple of items of interest, however:
*The Taurus 9mm comes in different ‘flavors,’ but if it belongs to GZ, and I had to guess which precise one, my money would be on the 709 “Slim.” Why? Because, like the Kel-Tek PF-9, it wouldn’t readily betray its presence when worn concealed.
*Interarms is a now defunct company out of Alexandria, VA. The Wikipedia piece on its founder has a few eye-opening tidbits in it:
Wikipedia 20130318
Now I must shift my backside and take care of some real life stuff…
Once again we have the possibility of evidence in the hands of authorities that may or may not be investigated competently. If GZ’s claims that the Sheibe altercation was recorded on his phone are true, he shouldn’t be asking for the phone back, he should be asking for the authorities to examine the evidence and “clear” him of wrongdoing I’d think.
What at the legalities here? The cops got a search warrant to search the residence – not George’s name on the lease- and found his cell phone. Do they have the right to access his phone and search all the data? If so in a sunshine state does all that become public? Etc
According to some reports he tried to hide the shotgun when cops were about to enter. Did he also hide the cell phone, one wonders? Why wasn’t it on him or in his pocket when he was arrested? He’d been speaking to a 911 operator moments before – or during – his arrest right?
Yup, so many questions.
I sure would like a gander at the data on GZ’s phones, but I suspect We the Little People won’t see most of it, maybe none of it.
Some of the reportage I’ve seen claims that all five firearms listed in the search warrant all belong to GZ. For a guy who’s only got about 150 clams to his name, he sure likes to splurge on firearms and ammo.
Of course, he didn’t necessarily buy all of those guns (speculating here, as per usual):
*Interarms .380 (Interarms went out of business after the death of its founder in 1998, so it’s unlikely–OK, impossible–that GZ bought this one ‘new.’ What are the odds that he didn’t get this one from daddy?)
*Taurus 9mm (If I had to guess, this sounds like something GZ might have bought to replace his Kel-Tec PF-9.)
*Glock 19 (Then again, this would also be a ‘nice’ handgun to purchase: polymer frame.)
*Kel-Tec “Shotgun” (GZ may have bought this one, but then again, it might have been a quid pro quo ‘gift’ from Kel-Tel.)
*AR-15 (Eh, who knows? But talk about the last thing that tetchy, itchy Eye-Dee-Ten-Tee malfunction needs.)
Hope everybody had a nice day of being thankful.
Orlando Sentinel 20131129
In other news, I was ‘reminded’ (via poster “towerflower” over at the blackbutterfly blog) that Osterman had loaned some firearms to GZ, so still no joy on how many guns GZ actually owns these days.
I don’t know about anybody else, but I had trouble reading that PDF of the search warrant at flcourtsblahblahblah. I did, however, find one press report that looked fairly comprehensive in its itemization of the inventory:
First Coast News 20131126
One of the interesting things to me is that it lists two .40 caliber magazines (with eight rounds each).
Again, I’m no gun maven, but I don’t think those .40 magazines/rounds were compatible with any of the listed firearms.
For me, it kinda goes back to Jonathan Manalo’s question to GZ at the homicide scene about whether the latter had used 9mm or .40.
This old Guardian piece correlates the recorded jail phone conversations to expenditures paid using the defense fund, and if you look at the released bank records (no link for the latter in this post because of wordpress limitations), that appears to be exactly what happened:
The Guardian 20120618
The released back records:
The Orlando Sentinel’s Jeff Weiner via scribd 20120618
Oops, I meant “bank” instead of “back.”
Daily Mail 20131129
Here’s the property (from whence Timber Run Enterprises LLC does business):
Google Street View May 2011
whonoze,
I apologize if I’ve fouled the thread.
WordPress doesn’t seem to like HTML links pointing to Sun Biz dot org. I’ve tried two different ones now, and the posts containing them don’t show, even pending, but when I try again, I get warned of duplicates.
Anyway, O’Mara seems to have formed Timber Run Enterprises LLC back on 20120723.
My attention was brought to this by Xena at her blackbutterfly7 wordpress blog.
YouTube user SanfordWatch put together a collection of clips that largely featuring attorney Jayne Weintraub in her capacity as a HLN talking head. Weintraub obviously didn’t buy GZ’s stories about the events of February 26, 2012:
(You’ll probably need to bring up the YouTube video in another browser window; I’m trying not to hose this thread by embedding it.)
YouTube Video by SanfordWatch 20131203
No doubt it helps to have a female lawyer when you’re a male accused of violence by a female, but why would GZ specifically have chosen Weintraub?
She isn’t a GZ supporter (per se), and she’s no fan of firearms, either.
*shrug*
GZ “gets away” with it again. His wife and former lawyer were the ones who ponied up the $30,000 to settle the bodyguard lawsuit.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2013-12-02/news/os-george-zimmerman-bodyguards-settle-20131202_1_shellie-zimmerman-george-zimmerman-former-neighborhood-watch-volunteer
Yeah, a couple different sources said that it was paid by O’Mara and SZ.
Where SZ got any money would be a good question (unless we’re talking about that $4,300 she reportedly got from GZ). Xena did some looking around some months back, and it would appear that SZ’s parents are not at all in good financial shape.
O’Mara looks like a ‘good guy’ pitching in on this, but it was O’Mara who brokered the deal with the security company to begin with. Some of that lawsuit documentation was emails from him trying to persuade the security company to charge GZ directly, but maybe he wasn’t altogether successful in that.
But, yeah, GZ skates again. Manhood eludes him, and probably always will.
Returning to the subject of GZ’s collection of firearms: how long has he been a firearm owner?
He’s been living in Florida since 2001, and they have pretty ‘liberal’ gun laws there:
Florida’s Gun Laws per Wikipedia
(In a nutshell, one doesn’t need to have a license to purchase/own a firearm in FL, nor does one need to register it.)
Reportedly, GZ purchased the Kel-Tec PF-9 in 2009, and it was only then that he got a license–for concealed carry, because that does require a license.
Was that his first gun? He’d known Best Friend Forever Mark Osterman since 2006, and MO seems like a big firearm fan (*cough*).
Oh, and Virginia’s gun laws appear to be similar to Florida’s with regard to purchase/own/register:
Virginia’s Gun Laws per Wikipedia
Zimmerman was only 17 or 18 when he moved to FL from VA in 2001, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that he didn’t already have guns (legally or otherwise).
I’m particularly interested in the circumstances under which he came into possession of that ‘archaic’ Interarms .380, being that it had to have been manufactured in 1998 at the latest.
Unless GZ bought it second-hand at a gun shop, he probably got it from Daddy Robert Z. Senior, or one of his ‘surrogate daddies’ like Osterman or Donnelly.
I wouldn’t be too interested except that GZ has killed someone with a firearm, and from all indications, needlessly so.
Guns don’t kill people. People kill people. That’s the message…
Guns are just tools to help killing and, they just happen to have gotten so efficient…
Unfortunately, above the enabling gun, we also have enabling laws.
We will have more of those stories:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/29/phillip-walker-sailors-kills-immigrant-gps-wrong-house_n_2574273.html
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2013/1129/Another-tragic-test-for-stand-your-ground-laws-this-time-in-Georgia
That’s right: people kill people–using guns because it’s a lot easier than using a teaspoon.
Yeah, I’d already read the terrible one about Alzheimer patient in GA. The shooter went outside after calling 911, and shot the Alzheimer patient four times, no less.
It’s way too easy to say the Alzheimer patient should have been in a lock-down care facility. There aren’t enough affordable, quality care facilities as it is.
I hadn’t heard about the GPS-related incident. Now you apparently have to worry about the quality of your GPS software provider–among other things.
I have an old paperback of selected readings from various sources, and one of them is about self-defense by Arthur R. Miller back in 1982. In the opening sentence of the piece, Miller said:
I wonder what Miller would say today, thirty years on.
In the GPS case, it wasn’t a break-in, the decedent was sitting in his car in the shooter’s driveway. The 69-year-old shooter apparently didn’t even think to call 911. Per Wikipedia, “Lilburn is a city in Gwinnett County, Georgia, in the United States. The population was 11,596 at the 2010 census. It is part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.”
The law certainly wasn’t non-existent in the Alzheimer patient case. Was the law “weak” in not getting there in time, or was it perhaps a(nother) case of insecure manhood (according to another piece I read about the case, the shooter was on his honeymoon)?
It just occurred to me that maybe I should have added “/sarcasm” in case it wasn’t obvious, but then it still might not have been obvious why I was being sarcastic.
Yeah, way too many people are finding it ‘easier’ to shoot other people these days. Heaven forfend people should use common sense.
Another talking point of gun ‘rights’ advocates is that a gun is a tool.
Yes, yes it is a tool. But unlike the spoon, or even the knife, the primary purpose of a gun is to kill.
This case from a quarter of a century ago in Maine will always bother me:
Bangor Daily News 20081114
(Caveat: you’ll have to answer a one-question survey to read the whole article.)
I am finding this case just too stressful. I do not believe there will be any civil rights action. I have written the DOJ but no matter as the standard to meet the test to win a civil rights case is really high. GZ could not pay the security co claim because he cannot appear to have funds. He has to look indigent…not worth going through the trouble of filing a civil suit against etc.. I hope the Martin family files anyway just for discovery. Anyway, I noticed that the President of the security company made a point to say that he did not intend to pursue GZ. The public defender, Jeff Dowdy is a 20 year veteran who had been working with the brother to counter GZ critics. Somehow he decides to become involved with the public defender’s office this past year and then he ends up working with GZ along with another public defender which considering the normal case load of these folks, never…never..never..happens. Then as this becomes public, Mr. Dowdy disappears and voila, a top notch, attorney is on the scene. Jayne Weintraub who is very expensive and too smart to take on this case pro bono is getting funds from somewhere. The 2.5 million legal bill is just window dressing because Mark O’Mara knows until GZ has some funds, it means nothing but it helps GZ look indigent and needy for solicitation of funds. I’m becoming sick of GZ and would like for once to have him get his comeuppance. Any way, I noticed you all were able to track SZ call to GZ on 2/26/12. around 6:48 PM. Are you able to track any calls to her prior to this time? Thanks for all your work. This is Florida ..the land of the chad…
GM, I like your point about the 2.5M window dressing. I fully buy into it.
Concerning tracking SZ & GZ, it all depends on what you meant with the word “tracking”.
Around 6:48, all we have are records of phone calls and claims by GZ and SZ of their respective locations.
The first significant evidence of GZ being at the RATL is that vehicle caught 1min prior to the NEN call moving and stopping along the mailboxes awning.
There was one text from SZ a few minutes before her 6:48pm call. That’s all I can remember concerning her communications with GZ. GZ was busy on the phone that afternoon.
I would never do well on twitter..144 words..if the DOJ can do something, and I don’t know if they can, it would have to be something like jury tampering with jury 37. Frank Taaffe had that prior knowledge of 5 to 1 split hours before not guilty vote..she was one with book deal..this does not pass smell taste…I suspect book deal in part dropped as Frank Taaffe dumb to advertise his exclusive knowledge on TV….I like obstruction of justice..or conspiracy…but this is just wishful thinking …
Isn’t it weird that one guy outside the jury knew what was going on in the deliberation room?
Oh yes, I forgot. The reason I’m focusing on the 6:48 PM time line is that TM left his HH at about 6:35 PM. This would have allowed for enough time for TM to walk past Frank T house. What if GZ is in a funk and he can’t reach him? Frank calls SZ who calls GZ. This would not take more than 3 minutes. SZ is not obligated by law to testify vs her husband but Frank T is not protected by law. This is where my fantasies for DOJ charges for obstruction of justice or conspiracy activities come into play.
Gronda Morin,
Welcome to the whonoze blog,AKA the bcclist diasapora! Maybe I’m being presumptuous, because I’m not the owner. Perfesser whonoze is, but what the hey…
I found your theory (on your blog) about GZ becoming ‘erratic’ whenever he doesn’t have a stabilizing female significant other in his life insightful.
As to whether SZ communicated with GZ prior to the 18:48 call that evening, yes, although at a glance, it looked like text messages. Here is the trial exhibit that has the phone records:
June 27 Exhibits and Identification List (10 Page PDF)
If you look at page 8 of the PDF, you’ll see the third item from the top is a three-minute voice comm (Call Type F) from SZ (we know that phone number belongs to SZ because of something else in discovery that I can’t put my finger on right this minute).
Then if you look at page 10, you’ll see a series of text messages (Call Type D) from the same phone number earlier in the afternoon that same day.
Keep in mind that the times on text messages are Pacific Time, so you have to add three hours. That means the Eastern Time on those texts from SZ are 16:48 – 16:49 (4:48 – 4:49 PM).
I’m with ya on the federal charges. I suspect they won’t be forthcoming, but I sure would like to see some.
No way do I think justice was done by acquitting GZ.
WS,
Are you sure about your timing?
Because, in records, I have SZ texting GZ at 18:30 ET, the GZ texting her back at 18:41 ET, and finally SZ calling him at 18:48 ET.
tchoup1,
Eh, let me look again.
What I see at the top of page 10 of that PDF is SZ texting GZ at 13:48PT (16:48ET), and GZ texting back twice at 13:49PT (16:49ET), and SZ texting him again at 13:49PT (16:39ET).
Then when I look further down, I see SZ texting GZ at 15:30PT (18:30ET) and GZ texting back at 15:41PT (18:41ET)
So, yeah, I didn’t notice all of them yesterday, just the ones at the top of page 10. };-)
What were those texts shortly before 5PM about, do you suppose?
“I’m having dinner with Daddy, so shift for yourself, unbeloved one…”
It’s a bit of an odd coinkydink that SZ’s first text was exactly two hours prior to her voice comm.
And, does it strike you at all odd that the state chose to include that one page of comms from February 20th?
Gronda,
I think I didn’t entirely understand your interest in SZ’s phone comms when I replied earlier.
Unfortunately, even though the billing information for those phone records (page 7) reflect SZ as the ‘owner,’ the reality is that they are for GZ’s cell phone.
So while we were able to ‘see’ comms between GZ and SZ (and make ‘educated’ guesses about some of the others), we couldn’t learn about any potential comms between Taaffe and SZ from these records.
Sorree.
@ Gronda Morin,
Yes, I certainly wish the feds would do something about this case, because it sure looks tainted with corruption to me.
Unfortunately, the problem could be that the corruption reaches the federal level (e.g., the feds are protecting GZ because of his father), so they may not really do anything about it except try to announce quietly (put the word out late on a Friday afternoon) that they’re not going to do anything about it.
Thank you Word Salad for your kind comments. I did a Hail Mary pass. Please do not discount this. Sometimes longshots like the Auburn and Alabama game just happen and so I am asking for positive thoughts until DOJ finally acts one way or another. I emailed the DOJ today about this whonoze.com blog site; and the BCC blog site with the 2 maps; and another site:http://3chicspolitico.com/2013/07/23/juror-b37-mark-omara-and-jury-tampering/. The author studied the video of the voir dire of B37 screen by screen and she is convinced the B37 was a stealth jurist. I agree. I referred to the above question about the above phone call issue. I mentioned my theories about Frank Taaffe and also about Mark Osterman with his prior work history as a school resource officer as being the one who orchestrated the leak of the found jewelry along with the tool listed on the 2011 suspension form which the parents vehemently deny ever having received notification. The leak to the reporter Ms. Robles of the Miami Herald was only one month after the shooting. The parents only received notice about graffiti art. The school resource officer Darryl Dunn is stating that he did not share this info with the Juvenile police system as the Miami -Dade Police Chief Charles Hurley wanted to show a decrease in crime referral statistics. The problem with excuse is that it would not preclude Officer Dunn for sharing this info in real time with the parents. For example the school resource officer did not share the info of a bag with residual marijuana with a pipe in Trayvon’s school bag with the juvenile police system but he did share this info with the parents and Trayvon received a 10 day suspension in Feb 2012. The conservative blogosphere is spinning this as being tied to a burglary at 204th Terrace in October 2011 just 1/2 miles from the school. They are alleging that the jewelry was listed as found property and this information was not shared with whatever police system would have investigated the burglary.
Gronda Morin,
Understood about the ‘Hail Mary’ pass, even though I’m not religious or athletic. };-)
Try as I might, I’ll never understand some of GZ’s most fervent supporters. Sure, some of them have agendas like gun rights, the WGI (hey, I too can coin ugly initialisms), or simple filthy lucre (paid disinformationists), but that doesn’t necessarily explain all of them.
Some of them seem like otherwise perfectly sane, likeable people, yet they’re simultaneously ready to believe the best about GZ, but the worst about TM.
I don’t think TM is an angel, but I give him the benefit of the doubt because he’s a teenager, dead at the hands of a adult whose self-serving stories just don’t add up.
Dear Word Salad, I can RIP. Another blogger has contacted the DOJ. I had always wondered how Frank Taaffe had prior knowledge about the 5-1 jury split with 1 hold out prior to the verdict announcement which he boasted about on talk shows like Nancy Grace and why the Prosecution didn’t act on this info when jurist B37 later confirmed his info on the interview w Anderson Cooper on CNN. The blogger on 3chicspolitico.com is alleging that b37 was a plant provided instructions during voir dire on how to influence the other jurists during deliberations by Mark O’Mara. She is alleging jury tampering and it seems someone has been threatening her with legal action and she is not flinching.
Gronda Morin,
I’ve read the exposition on 3chicspolitico about the potential jury-rigging (of the non-nautical kind), and it seems very possible to me. Sorry to hear that the author is being threatened.
Without naming names, and making things worse: are the threats from a credible source?
Schiebe wants to drop her charges against GZ:
Orlando Sentinel 20131209
That’s right, little girl. It isn’t necessarily up to you once you call 911 alleging domestic violence.
However, I smell another slide. I wonder if GZ waved ‘defense fund’ money under her nose
Scheibe’s affidavit, courtesy of Business Insider’s Pamela Engel:
Pamela Engel scribd PDF
Picture Lurch Addams shaking his head in weary disapproval. An update on Christi O’Connor’s ad hoc blog has information about (yet another) girlfriend of GZ’s:
zimmermanverdict dot net
I just don’t understand what appeal GZ has for any woman.
Then again, this woman might have information about the homicide, so it’s definitely interesting.
And it gets more and more surreal. We may be witnessing a real life “twin peaks” story.
After the pregnancy story, we have the gun-in-the-freaking-face story. And she claims she want to get back with him and we learned he had another lover for the past year or two at least.
I never followed Twin Peaks, but GZ & Company are plenty surreal enough for me.
I could trash-talk all the women in GZ’s life (because none of them are looking particularly good right about now), but let me skip to the main course.
Could GZ just be a hapless victim in all this? Um, I don’t think so.
I’ll grant you that he possibly had a less-than-ideal childhood, but by the time a person is twenty-eight-years-old, they need to suck it up.
Over and above being a killer, GZ sure looks to me like a life-long liar, and blame-shifter.
I just hope nobody else is killed or irreparably harmed because of him.
Too bad O’Connor keeps on missing her own deadlines.
Oh, no kidding. How many exclusives does she ‘owe’ her audience now?
I suspect that if she does have any more ‘exclusive’ info, she’s saving it up for a book–that won’t come out until after February 26, 2014.
Yet another “alleged” girlfriend.
So far we have O’Conner saying so and no second source.
If O’Connor tries to sell a book after the two year mark, and there’s any exclusive, inculpating information about the TM homicide in it, then she and the contributor(s) had better crawl into a hole in the ground, and pull the opening in after themselves.
Think Progress 20131210
Well, who’s surprised? (Not me.):
Orlando Sentinel 20131211
Think Progress 20131211
On Wednesday, Florida state prosecution dropped the domestic violence charges against George Zimmerman from a November dispute with his girlfriend Samantha Scheibe.
Because the charges were dropped, there are no legal barriers preventing Zimmerman from getting his firearms back. At the time of his arrest, Zimmerman had five guns and 100 rounds of ammunition. The guns included an AR-15 assault rifle, Keltec shotgun, and three handguns…
He’ll probably also be free to leave FL, because I don’t think he needs to be physically present in order for his divorce to proceed (full financial disclosure will probably still have to happen, though).
GZ may want to ‘rethink’ his reported intent to relocate to TX, though, because it won’t necessarily be all gunshine and roses for him.
As the police officer in Forney, TX told GZ, “Don’t play with your firearm.”
((sarcasm)) I guess they don’t quite get the 2nd Amendment in Forney. Must be a buncha Commies there. GZ might move to Liberty, TX, which not only has a name that would resonate with his Gadsden flag flying supporters, but is in the 36th U.S. Congressional District, currently represented by uber gun nut Steve Stockman. If Stockman wins his primary challenge against Conservative-but-almost-sane Republican Senator John Cornyn, that will leave an open House seat, and who better than GZ to fill Stockman’s shoes? (And remember, GZ hates wetbacks, too.((/sarcasm))
Um yeah, TX would not be a place to go if one has ‘problems’ with people of Mexican descent.
GZ will have to do quite a bit of soft-shoe about those remarks he made on his MySpace page (recall that his lawyer O’Mara confirmed that it was indeed GZ’s):
Wayback Machine snapshot from 20120501
Oops, bad HTML syntax. A goodly chunk of the last post was supposed to be a quote from the Think Progress piece. Oh well.
New York Times 20131214
Kudos to the Times for mentioning that the charges included manslaughter.
Thirty Mile Zone 20131213
As tempting as it might be to wish that GZ would leave the U.S., we made this contemptible excuse for a human being, and I don’t think we should want him abroad sullying our reputation.
He’d kinda be leaving the U.S. if he moved to Texas.
Heh. He should remember that one of the mottoes in TX is “Don’t Mess With Texas.”
These days they’re using it as part of an anti-littering campaign, and my impression is that GZ moving to TX would constitute littering. };-)
I dunno. I know he was reported as planning to move to TX, but I have to wonder whether the idea of being surrounded by superior marksmen doesn’t make his ‘boys’ ascend back into his abdomen.
I renamed the thread… what do ya think? 🙂
It sounds about right. GZ is all about ‘reciprocity.’
File a restraining order against GZ, and he’ll reply in kind.
Disrespect GZ by not being in total awe of his authority, and he’ll open up a ‘can’ of gunpowder on ya.
How much longer do you think it will be before GZ gets ‘smart’ with the wrong person?
Absolutely not related to the main theme of this blog, but I just wanted to note that actor Peter O’Toole died Saturday.
I don’t know how anybody else felt about him, but I think he was one of the greats.
One of my favorite O’Toole bits was from “The Lion in Winter.” In one scene as Henry II of England, he was wishing that he could be a fly on the wall, watching his wife Eleanor of Aquitaine try to win their son Richard the Lionhearted back to her side.
He did an impression of his wife Eleanor (played by Katherine Hepburn) trying to play on their son’s sentiment:
“I taught you prancing, lamb. And lute–and flute.”
Just about then Eleanor comes into the room, smiles, and says:
“How marvelous. It’s absolutely me.”
Apparently, it was O’Toole’s idea to get Hepburn as leading lady (“Ask for the best”) for the film, but their relationship off-camera sounds like it might have been at least a little bit like the on-camera one.
He was asked a couple of years ago what it was like to work with her, and he imitated Hepburn. It was something along the lines of:
“I’ve been here since very early this morning, and you’d better know your lines–pig!”
If you like O’Toole, but haven’t seen ‘The Ruling Class,’ check it out!
I don’t think I actually have seen that one. There will no doubt be a flood of O’Toole movies on TV now, so I’ll be keeping my eyes peeled for it.
Orlando Sentinel 20131215
Ooo, thanks 2dogsonly (and Xena of the blackbutterfly7 blog). Here’s the link for the Orlando Sentinel piece:
Orlando Sentinel 20131216
Oh my. I was alerted to this by reading Nettles’ annettekblog at wordpress):
News13 20131216
The current bid is $15,000 (USD).
Cue the Human League’s “Don’t You Want Me” };-)
There’s a bid of almost $100,000 this morning for GZ’s ‘art’:
Ebay 20131217:14:25 UTC
Who do you suppose is the ‘deep pockets?’
Heh! Hat tip to Xena at her blackbutterfly7 wordpress blog (and “Justice Calls” at twitter).
I did idly wonder whether GZ had used a computer to create his ‘meisterstueck,’ and it would appear he did–using a shutterstock template:
blackbutterfly7 at wordpress 20131216
Do ya think that somebody will actually pony up $100K for this thing? Stay tuned.
Short entry on Gawker about the ‘ZimmerArt’, with appropriately disparaging coments and typical Gawker-ish snark:
http://tinyurl.com/mdtcbvu
And here’s a petition at Change.Org to have eBay suspend GZ’s account
http://tinyurl.com/kwxemsw
“Out of respect for the families and friends of victims, we don’t allow listing items closely associated with notorious murderers within the past 100 years.” eBay’s Offensive Material Policy 12/16/2013
Having been acquitted, Zimmerman could bring suit for libel were eBay to in any way associate itself with calling him a murderer.
Oops, that observation about the vodka-sipping poster belonged under the other post.
Anyway, slander aside, I don’t think the petitioners will succeed in getting GZ’s ebay account suspended, because unless the feds bring charges against him, GZ is officially “Not Guilty” of murder or manslaughter.
Not innocent by a long shot, but legally not guilty.
So right now, GZ can continue to profit from having killed TM. And yeah, I said “continue.”
I have to wonder if he didn’t think himself clever paying off all those thousands of dollars in personal, non-defense debts using donated-for-defense funds last year.
Hey, maybe that does make him clever, but it sure doesn’t make him a decent human being in my book.
I was wondering how you managed to reply to my post a minute before I made it.
It’s a little disconcerting to get the feeling, even for just a particle of a second, that someone is watching what you type while you’re still composing the comment.
Heh. I like the poster who’s sipping vodka waiting for a slander suit.
As it was made in print form, it would be libel on his or her part, not slander.
Yeah, grammar Queen point taken. };-)
As Grampa Simpson would say “Welcome to my world!”
And don’t forget, World Sousveillance Day is right around the corner:
Wikipedia Article
Oops. When will I ever learn? I have a post hung up in moderation now because, technically, it has two links in it (a reply in the form of a quote, and an actual external link).
Sorree, Perfesser whonoze. I really don’t intend to make extra work for you.
Hey, while I’m at it, Happy Solstice (that’s coming up on Saturday).
Well, the bid on GZ’s ‘art’ is now up over $110K. The current high bid is by somebody who’s already bid on it 37 times (and it’s the only thing this particular user has ever bid on). The thing is, it looks like 10 of the last 11 bids have been by this same person, so it would appear that they’re ‘needlessly’ driving the price up:
Ebay bidding on GZ’s ‘art’
I think somebody might be setting GZ up for a fall.
Ya know, GZ does actually need to earn a living, and an honest one, one that doesn’t depend on his notoriety as a killer.
Cleaning public toilets with his tongue is too tempting of a bad dream; I’d settle for ditch-digging or something similar.
Interestingly, if this is the real GZ, he’s answered several inquiries about the painting. He said he’ll deliver the painting personally to the winning bidder, and said “no” when they asked if O’Mara will be receiving any money from it.
Yeah, I see that GZ is offering personal delivery if the buyer is in the continental U.S.
I think that when the bidding on GZ’s meisterstueck resets (as it seems it surely must), somebody in Harlem should bid eight bits. };-)
O’Mara has offered a ‘response’ to the alleged ethics violations on his blog (I put fear quotes around “response” because I don’t think the Florida bar will buy a blog entry as a response):
O’Mara’s blog
Cue Liza Minnelli and Joel Grey performing “Money.” Or the O’Jays doing “For the Love of Money,” take your pick.
Oops, forgot a hat tip to Xena for the link to O’Mara’s ‘response.’
An ethics complaint is not about money; well except indirectly for the attorney who may be suspended for a period of time but it is not the same as a civil lawsuit where money is actually paid out.
So, what the hell was MOM referring to in his references about $$$? It is rather unwise of him to counter an ethics violation with sarcasm. Shows a lack of respect and I just don’t think that would help him in future Supreme Court pleadings.
There have been two or three Florida attorneys suspended for using a client’s trust fund to enhance their office and some for failure to keep adequate books on their client’s trust funds. And we know O’Mara did both of these so there may be some retribution by the Florida supreme court. 26 attorneys have been reprimanded, suspended, or disbarred in Florida this year. I’ll look for the link and post it.
Did he change it? I just went to his blog and it is a very thoughtful response, whether it is true is not for me to say but no where does it quote music lyrics or reference money.
2dogsonly,
Sorry, perhaps you were mislead by me saying “Cue…” That was just my impression of what it’s all about for O’Mara: money. Money, and fame. I could have just as easily said “Cue David Bowie’s “Fame.”
What the hey, cue that one up. I remember the first time I ever heard it on the radio. Even though the DJ said nothing about it in advance, when I heard the backup singer sing, “Is it any wonder,” It went through me like electricity because it was unmistakably the voice of John Lennon.
Just rechecking the ebay bidding on GZ’s ‘art,’ and the highest bid is less than it was yesterday. Just now, it was $95,100.00 USD.
If you look at the history, there have been a number of retracted and cancelled bids (one was cancelled because the bidder wasn’t a registered user):
ebay bidding history on GZ’s ‘art’
The current high bidder seems to be ‘confused,’ because they made the same bid ten times in a row. Either that, or they’re having computer troubles (most of those repeat bids are seconds apart). Or I’m confused, because I know diddly about ebay…
It’s interesting to see that a couple of the bidders are collectors or dealers as shown by their recent history of bids on coins and computers. FYI, retractions are done by the bidder/buyer, while cancellations are done by the seller or ebay.
So you think it’s possible that some of these bidders are in earnest, and are calculating that it might be worth even more to some private collector at some point?
Er, not because of any aesthetic consideration, but similar to the way a painting by Adolf Hitler might be considered ‘valuable.’
There, I’ve gone and broken Godwin’s Law again…
Dunno, but paintings are usually more valuable if sold posthumously right? Maybe they’re betting on untimely circumstances…..
That’s sounds right on the money. Not attractive (yet somebody else making money off of a dead teenager), but there it is. GZ’s ‘art’ is back up over $100K this morning. As before, many of the top bidder’s bids are repetitive (no increase), so I’m not certain what’s going on there.
No link provided because that would make this post go into moderation and cause the Perfesser some work.
In other ‘news,’ O’Connor’s got two new posts on her ad hoc blog, zimmermanverdict dot net. There’s nothing really exciting or exclusive there, except that she says in the newest of the two that GZ got his firearms back yesterday.
She makes a big graphical production (chart with gun comparisons) of drawing an analogy between GZ, Adam Lanza, and James Holmes. I can’t say that I agree. I do think that GZ is dangerous, and is likely to kill again, but not ‘en masse.’
I could be wrong…
With regard to WSI’s theory of ebay bidders speculating that the value of GZ’s ‘art’ will going sky-high should he die prematurely: there’s a certain awful symmetry to it.
I don’t think any of the regular contributors here would disagree that GZ has profited, at least in the short run, from TM’s death.
If GZ dies young in some way related to his notoriety as a killer, and speculators profit thereby, some would call that ‘poetic justice.’
I try not to wish it, and not just because I don’t ever want to be as bad as I think GZ is.
I try not to wish it, because I don’t want to see GZ become a bigger martyr than he is already (to some people, anyway).
I want GZ to live to live to a ripe old age–in obscurity and poverty. That would be about as close to redemption as I could see him getting.
If he does die prematurely, I can only hope he doesn’t take anybody else with him.
“I don’t think any of the regular contributors here would disagree that GZ has profited, at least in the short run, from TM’s death.”
In what way?
How are you defining profit?
Heh. Somehow, I knew that’d fetch ya, unitron.
I’d say that GZ profited, at least early in the case, because it sure looks to me like he paid off thousands of dollars in debts that he’d accrued beforehe killed TM–using the ‘self-defense’ donations:
GZ’s Bank Statements on scribd
If you look at the records, it looks like he was playing ‘catch-up’ on a lot of bills.
Yeah, I’m calling that “profit.”
I suspect that, if given the choice, he’d have gone for everybody considering it an unfortunately necessary case of self-defense, the case closed, and returned to relative anonymity and going back to his job and dealing with his bills from his regular paycheck.
How much would they have to pay you to go through what he did after the shooting?
I wouldn’t wish grave harm on anyone either. Regarding the Ebay bids. I’ve never actually bid there but my best uneducated guess is that the current highest bids by m***2 are from an automated bidding war. Notice that it was posted on 12/17 around 14:44:49, while the next highest bid was on 12/18. How can that be? Click on “show automatic bids” and you’ll see the history of when this bidder jumped in, it was around $4000 or so, and he/she has had the most number of bids, many of which were automated. I think he has set his mind to win so he has a high maximum. I think when all those other people’s bids got cancelled or retracted, his bids reverted to the increment of $100 above the next highest legitimate bid. Noted in particular that the unregistered user who got cancelled bid $110,000 on 12/18 at 14:44:03, around the same time as the current bid by m***2 was made. There might have been a bidding war at that time before somebody figured out m***2 was not a registered user, and they axed him from the auction.
Who knows whether the bidders on GZ’s ‘painting’ are speculating on it’s future value, or the whole thing is a front for some deep-pocketed GZ fans to get him some money without making a ‘contribution’? The Q&A on the auction page is a little mutual love fest between GZ and the treepers (even GZ himself calls them that, apparently).
IMHO, anyone expecting GZ to kick the bucket anytime soon has been drinking the pro-Z Kool-Aid. The NBPP is coming! The NBPP is coming!
(Well, he did tell the 911 operator that he and Scheibe keep a gun under their bed. Kinda Fatal Atraction action there… Hell hath no fury, etc.)
Seriously, I think GZ is more likely, like any of us, to die in a random car accident than via a violent crime…
Another thought: If GZ can sell a few more canvasses, he’ll be well off enough to make it worth Ben Crump’s time to file a wrongful death suit…
Sure, it still could be some deep-pockets supporter that wants to remain ‘cloaked.’
Yeah, some of those ebay comments would make me throw up in my mouth a little if I didn’t have such a tough stomach.
I sincerely doubt that the NBBP will harm GZ, anymore than the average resident of Harlem would. They’d probably just give him the stink eye. You know, kinda like GZ did with most of his targets at the Retreat.
When you come right down to it, most of us are more likely to die in a random auto accident than via violent crime.
As to any civil suits, I dunno. I will say that a civil suit could be a real eye-opener…
@ unitron,
I don’t understand what you were getting at in the first part of the first paragraph.
What did you mean by “gone for everybody?”
As to GZ returning to “relative anonymity,” that is relative. I think he’d already tried to ‘make a name for himself’ several times. There was that town hall meeting where he’d make those strange allegations. Then there was him allegedly handing out flyers in the Sherman Ware case. Allegedly. Then there was reviving Neighborhood Watch at the Retreat, and getting himself anointed El Capitano.
“How much would they have to pay you to go through what he did after the shooting?”
I like to think that I’ll never get myself into GZ’s situation. Oh, I like to hold onto a bit of humility, and realize that I might inadvertently kill somebody some day. That would make me feel terrible, and I don’t think I’d ever get over it.
But what GZ did?
Maybe I flatter myself, but I just don’t see myself in that situation, so I can’t begin to know how to answer your theoretical question.
“What did you mean by “gone for everybody?” ”
If given the choice, the choice which he would “go for”, instead of what he went through, would be for everybody to have accepted it as self-defense, tragic but, under the circumstances of fearing for his life, unavoidable, at which point the case would be closed and he’d have returned to his life, debts and all, gone back to his job, and continued to have lived in relative obscurity.
The way things went instead, even with whatever he got in donations, wasn’t exactly “winning the lottery”, and I don’t think any of us would exchange places with him.
Yah, I don’t doubt that GZ would like for ‘everybody’ to accept his self-defense claims, but it ain’t gonna happen.
I look at the released evidence, and I see a guy who escalated what should have been at the very most a routine, Neighborhood Watch observe-and-call incident into a homicide–and then lied up a storm about it.
No, the donations weren’t exactly winning the lottery, but I do suspect that at least for a brief period, GZ might have seen them as a gravy train that could go on indefinitely.
I sure as heck wouldn’t willingly exchange places with him.
TMZ has some video footage of GZ and Scheibe at the Seminole County Sheriff’s Department on Thursday to pick up her firearms (he picked up his own on Wednesday):
TMZ 20131219
I don’t know who the third person is (a sheriff’s office functionary?), but she appears to be carrying a longish bundle that she hands off to Scheibe once the latter is seated in GZ’s Ridgeline.
Does this mean Sheibe’s firearms collection includes a long gun? *shrug*
Get a load of this guys. Just too funny….it’s about GZ’s “original” painting. It was posted by a commenter at the TMZ site on the story about how GZ’s lawyer hopes he makes millions off his painting.
http://imgur.com/a/IkTzt
The original image of that flag (Shutterstock ID: 40057918) is a vector illustration copyrighted by AWEN art studio.
Here’s an interesting video about it, kinda long at 7 minutes, but worth it.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=01d_1387349120
That guy was pretty funny (Whah?! Whah?! Whah?!)
Did GZ use a shutterstock template, juice it up a bit with a filter, print it out, and then do a paint-by-numbers job on it? Sure.
And it would be no big deal (because shutterstock puts stuff like that out there on the Internet for people to download and use), except that GZ didn’t credit shutterstock.
And GZ is obviously pandering to his new demographic with that post-1954 Pledge of Allegiance wording.
Just more spin from a small-time spin king who only hit the big time by killing somebody.
AWEN art studio is Bulgarian. Is it politically incorrect to suggest that they may want a few “large” bills from GZ, and may send a few “friends” for a nice “sit-down” afternoon chat? (guys know I’m totally kidding right?….I used to watch the Sopranos…..)
“Dude, you can’t do that!” Well, maybe. Maybe not. GZ’s use of that copyrighted image is not a slam dunk infringement case. He’d have a decent argument that his use is transformative. But given the case law history on stuff like that, it could go either way. It would make an interesting litigation. But if the Bulgarians do sue him, he’ll probably have to throw in the towel, because a good enough IP attorney to defend the case would probably cost him more than the hundred large.
Ironically, the copyright controversy probably adds to the value of the canvas, speculation-wise.
If there’s any copyright crap to hit the fan, it’ll likely be after the auction is over (Dec 21, 2013 09:55:26 PST)–that is, if any of the bidders make good on their bids, don’t you think?
Otherwise, the copyright holder had better like the taste of turnip.
The normal procedure would be for the copyright holder’s lawyer to send the alleged infringer a very threatening letter. They would want to do that as soon as the issue comes to their attention. Typically, that would just be a demand to cease and desist. But since GZ stands to actually make money on this, and in a way that is not accessible to the rights holders themselves, the attorneys might ask for a percentage of GZ’s profit, in return for a license to use the image….
Actually, since that’s a stock photo, a license to use it would have come pretty cheap up front, all things considered. For all we know, GZ might have paid the fee already. Somehow, ‘knowing’ GZ, i wouldn’t bet on that. IANAL, but by ‘publishing’ his work by advertising it on eBay, GZ may have forfeited the right to just pay the standard use fee, if he hasn’t done so already. In which case, he’s liable to face a much steeper bill.
Regardless of what the right holder asks for, GZ would be advised to pay up. Even though he might in theory have a defensible Fair Use case, in practice it would cost him more to go to court than it’s worth. Shutterstock no doubt has copyright attorneys on retainer, and they can pursue ‘miscreats’ without breaking their bank… In practice, copyright law is anything but fair. The party with the deepest pockets almost always ‘wins’, regardless of the merits, because the poorer party almost always is forced to quit the fight to avoid the costs and the equally (if not more) deterring hassles. For a reference example, check out the Negativland/U2 case:
http://tinyurl.com/kprk6ku
WaPo called it (I love it):
Washington Post 20131217
Hmm, per ABC, that Taurus 9mm belonged to Schiebe:
ABC 20131220
I dunno, I’m still a bit ‘puzzled’ by that paparazzi video. It looked like the sheriff’s department functionary was carrying something longer than a 9mm, wrapped in butcher paper. Eh, *shrug*
Perverse thought of the day: If GZ REALLY wants to reap some coin, he should consider auctioning of the Ket-Tec he used “in self-defense” against TM. Now THAT’s a collectors item. I mean, he doesn’t need it, given his available arsenal. I wonder how much it would fetch?
Ditto on that being a perverse thought. People thought that smiling photo-op at the gun factory was bad enough…..
Wow, that is perverse–but real.
Of course, it would also be a ‘good’ way to get people to despise GZ even more…
I thought the DOJ has the gun (Ket-Tec) that Piglet used to murder Trayvon.
The Kel-Tec PF-9 9mm pistol was supposedly released after the trial:
flcourts18 dot org Receipt for the Release of Evidence 20130716
(Page 8 of the PDF)
It’s worth nothing that that particular weapon wasn’t among the firearms seized during the November 2013 domestic incident at Scheibe’s place.
Where is it these days, hmmm?
As if people really needed to hear more from this guy. This supposed GZ twitter account was set up when the painting went on Ebay. Note that about 9 tweets down, he quotes Matthew from the bible and then says “Imagine his strong presence on 7/13/12.” Hmmmmm, what was he doing on that day?
Yah, I don’t really know if GZ can ‘help’ himself that way. His need for attention is a form of substance abuse.
Well, and of course quoting the bible is pandering to his new demographic.
Just for grins, I went to shutterstock dot com, initiated a download of that image (74692756), and immediately hit a paywall. *shrug*
Anyway, GZ advertised his ‘art’ on ebay as “Original.” His enablers have probably got him convinced that he’s Andy Warhol.
I remember that John Lennon went on record as admiring Andy Warhol–as a con-artist. Lennon opined that “Andy doesn’t really do anything.”
Hat tip to Danny Warrior’s wordpress blog for making me aware of this Daily Mail still from the video of GZ and Scheibe leaving the sheriff’s department on Thursday:
Daily Mail
That “longish” bundle I perceived in the video looks more like an old candy box or something no more than about a foot long (in the still).
So, yeah, I’m thinking that a Taurus 9mm would fit in that quite nicely.
Happy Solstice to everybody (the official solstice was at 17:11 UTC today, i.e. within the last hour).
The bidding on GZ’s ‘art’ ended about five minutes ago, so now it remains to be seen (a) whether the top bid was serious (b) will there be any copyright trouble
Well, that, and how much tax will GZ pay…
According to this article, apparently GZ’s auction was private.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-george-zimmerman-painting-ebay-20131217,0,1342850.story#axzz2o9WvAYG0
Hmmm, do they mean it was private in the sense that the bidders’ usernames were partially masked?:
What is a Private eBay Auction?
“The EBay bidding for Zimmerman’s painting is also private, though Zimmerman has used it as a platform to shout out to his fans.”
I think the wording in the article made me confused. You may be right that it just means that the bidders names were kept confidential. Somehow, I thought that it meant that it was an invite-only auction, like he only invited the treepers to bid, but I don’t even know if that’s even possible on ebay. I read something about restricted access auctions that are usually for adult items and the bidders just have to have a registered credit card. Don’t know, and shouldn’t really care about it at this point…..
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-george-zimmerman-painting-ebay-20131217,0,1342850.story#ixzz2oA8gj0Y0
Oh, I just typed in GZ’s full name as a search on ebay and several listings come up where people are selling replicas of GZ’s replica painting. Some are jokes but at least one artist seems to be serious about selling it as a gag gift. Seriously, don’t people have anything better to do than to both with non-sensical stuff about this man? Oh wait…..
Heh:
Palm Beach Post 20131221
None of us should really care, probably. There are some net observers speculating that the highest bidder might be GZ himself, making the whole thing a publicity stunt.
I guess I still care in the sense that GZ seems to be trying to make a living out of his notoriety as a killer.
As he himself told the paparazzi the other day, “Get a real job!”
Why is it that none of his devoted supporters have given him one?
They’ll give him money, goods, and attaboys, but maybe they don’t really want him around.
In thinking about this a little bit more, perhaps one of his supporters has given him a job–to begin after the year-end holidays.
At a guess, it would have to be a small business owner. Why?
Well, in order to offer a steady, paying gig, the benefactor would have to be either somebody who’s independently wealthy, or a business owner.
If the latter, it would probably have to be a small business, because that seems like it would be the only way to keep it on the QT.
You know, ‘assuming’ that GZ truly wants to disappear…
Q: Why do GZ supporters still feel a need to propagandize after his acquittal?
A: Because they know very well that he’s far from innocent.
Robert and Gladys ZImmerman’s website reflects that they’re among those who were still trying to ‘rewrite’ the case as recently as September 2013:
Robert and Gladys 20130920
Just for starters, RZSR might want to stop promoting that book of his, because it makes him look crazier than a sh*t house rat (see allegation that the FBI couldn’t devote sufficient resources to investigating the Boston Marathon bombings because they had expended too many of them ‘persecuting’ GZ).
Then–somebody is going to have to ‘help’ me with regard to what is factually incorrect in that second paragraph, because R&G conveniently don’t provide any supporting evidence; they merely imply that it’s ‘wrong.’
Then there’s that “malicious fabrication” on CNN’s part. R&G conveniently don’t provide a link to the updated CNN piece, so I had to chase it down myself.
I’ll grant you that the “He is instructed not to get out of his SUV…” part should have long since been corrected, but the “Zimmerman disregards the instructions” part is still correct.
When the dispatcher surmised from the background sounds that GZ had exited his vehicle, and got confirmation from GZ that he was indeed following TM, he advised GZ, “Okay, we don’t need you to do that.”
GZ signaled that he understood, and would comply by answering, “Okay,” (at approximately 19:12).
However, rather than immediately return to his vehicle, he seemed to be “missing in action” for several minutes (the first 911 call came in around 19:16:11; see the timeline of your choice).
No amount of obfuscation on GZ’s part will ever convince me that he was doing anything other than hunting TM during the missing minutes.
I think R&G know their son is pretty far from innocent, but they’ve been shielding him because exposure of his wrongdoing might expose some of their own.
They might want to spend some time between Christmas and Easter thinking about who ‘died for their sins.’
Merry Christmas to all here who celebrate it.
For those who might want to celebrate World Sousveillance Day (December 24th), go make a recording of the government. };-)
“Sousveillance”?
Are we being spied on by the Grinch?
Or the Cat in the Hat?
No, a sous chef for Gordon Ramsay.
Actually, it’s You Know Who:
He sees you when you’re walking
He knows the route you take
He knows that you’re up to no good
So a righteous shoot he’ll make.
So, you better not run
You better not fight
You better behave son
Cause we got our gun rights
Zimmerman is coming to town.
Ho Ho Ho.
In other news, an elderly man in a red suit and white beard was shot dead while attempting to make his way down a chimney in Detroit. The homeowner who fired the fatal shot told police he was in fear for his life and emptied both barrels of his shotgun at the intruder in self-defense. The shooter’s attorney pointed out that the deceased was carrying a bag full of gifts, no doubt looted from other homes in the neighborhood.
Heh!
Here’s another for ya:
Little hood
Looks ‘suspicious’
Got my gun
It’s auspicious
My mission is clear:
Make him feel fear
Patrolling ’round, actin’ like an thug.
You’re still a joke.
Maybe you missed it but a couple of months ago Samantha stated that George gets depressed when his name isn’t in the news.
You must have also missed the fact that George was fired from his job the day after he murdered Trayvon. It could have been linked to the fact that George shared with his coworkers that he had murdered a ‘mugger’.
Even that employer wanted any excuse to get rid of George.
roderick2012:
Was GZ in fact fired from Digital Risk LLC?
If they did, he made it easy for them to do so by going into hiding–even before the bounty offered by the NBPP.
No show, no job, Sonny Jim.
Another of GZ’s ‘champions’ weighs in:
Ammoland 20131227
I won’t bore you with more of his defense of ‘poor’ GZ, but I found it amusing that Weingarten’s alleged first impression of GZ was that he was ‘black.’
GZ can check “White” on forms as much as he wants, but I suspect that most people’s first impression of him is not that he’s black, but that he’s not precisely white.
The first time I ever saw a picture of him, my brain said, “Mestizo.” There’s not a thing in the world wrong with being a mestizo–except if you can’t admit it.
In other non-news, SZ was in an auto accident yesterday morning. She was in Winter Park making a left turn, and another driver ran a red light. Apparently both autos had to be towed away from the scene, and SZ went to the hospital with minor injuries. The other driver had no injuries, but refused an on-scene breathalyzer test, and was arrested for alleged DUI.
Hmmm, it occurs to me that I didn’t really finish my thoughts on GZ’s ‘racial identity.’
I have to wonder how many people outside his family knew about this African-Peruvian great-grandfather before GZ was accused of murder.
I suspect that prior to killing TM, GZ was identifying himself as whatever he thought would get him the most mileage, and judging from the released records, that was “white.”
There would be nothing really wrong with that, except that GZ’s been trying to get ‘extra mileage’ from killing.
GZ is threatening the whole world’s sense of decency and taste again:
TherealGeorgeZ at Twitter 20131228
O’Connor’s got another ‘exclusive’ out:
zimmermanverdict dot net 20131228
Dear, oh dear: a rit of fealous jage.
Anyway, there’s also pictures (presumably taken by the police), including one of the butt of the Kel-Tec KSG shotgun that GZ allegedly used to shatter the glass table at Scheibe’s place.
So that I had a ‘baseline’ image, I went looking on the net for images of the Kel-Tec KSG butt. It took a while because most people are focused on the ‘business end’ of a gun, but I found one here (third picture down):
m4carbine dot net Review of the Kel-Tec KSG Shotgun 20130921
I just wanted to know what a ‘nice,’ new one should look like.
When you look at the picture of GZ’s on O’Connor’s blog (zimmermanverdict dot net), it looks a bit dinged up, despite being a relatively new acquisition. I guess that could happen if it’s been used it to shatter a glass table…
Hat tip to 2dogsonly over at the blackbutterfly7 wordpress blog for bringing my attention to this story.
No, it’s not about GZ per se; it’s about a gated community in which one resident may have ‘set up’ a situation that culminated in the fatal shooting of another:
Tampa Tribune 20121019
O’Connor has uploaded the video of Scheibe’s police interview (caveat: over 30 minutes long):
YouTube 20131230
I’m thinking that this (unfortunately) is ancient “she said/he said” territory.
Still, I do wonder how the butt of GZ’s Kel-tec KSG shotgun got scuffed. You’d think a gun-lover with a new ‘toy’ would treat it more gently (and if it was Scheibe who had damaged it, I would think GZ would’ve been only too quick to say so).
Well, I don’t know about anybody else, but I have mixed emotions about this:
DannyWarrior wordpress blog 20131231
DannyWarrior used to post at pro-GZ fora, but was made to feel persona non grata there because his support for GZ was not without reservation or criticism.
DannyWarrior apparently feels (among other things) that while it was ill-advised of GZ to leave his vehicle and follow TM, GZ did ultimately act in self-defense when he shot TM.
I can ‘accept’ that, given that none of us (save GZ) knows exactly what happened in those few, critical minutes in the darkened courtyard.
I wish DannyWarrior well in the spirit of being inclusive rather than divisive.
Happy New Year, Diasporites (OK, maybe that isn’t the right use of the word, but I like it).
Global Grind has picked up the story about Scheibe’s police interview:
Global Grind 20140101
BTW, that video (obtained from zimmermanverdict dot net) is about twice as long as it needs to be; it seems to repeat at around the 15:45 mark.
My impression is that, ultimately, Scheibe is a foolish little girl. From a purely legal standpoint, Scheibe is an adult, and as such can do what she wants (you know, short of committing crimes). However, she has a young daughter who deserves a safe environment.
To me, that would be far from anybody who displays a cavalier attitude towards firearms.
Welcome to 2014.
I wonder what GZ’s New Year’s resolutions are.
Any suggestions (perhaps funny ones in a dark comedy sort of way)…
Also welcome: resolutions for other non-tragic figures in the case: BDLR, Angela Corey, Don West, MOM, various bloggers, etc.
Let’s hope AC’s new year’s resolution isn’t to throw the Dunn case like she had her minions Bernie and John Guy throw the Zimmerman case.
I find it curious that after the Zimmerman verdict that she decided to replace Guy as lead prosecutor in the Dunn case.
That is interesting about Corey replacing Guy in the Dunn case. I almost don’t have the heart to watch, though.
Whether Dunn gets sent up or walks, I’ll just wonder how much behind the scenes power-broking went on.
That’s what the GZ homicide case did to me.
It’s not just that I think GZ is far from innocent (I do), or even that I think there was a lot of corruption permeating the case (I do). It’s the number of citizens who, despite all the evidence to the contrary, apparently still think GZ is not only innocent, but a stand-up guy.
I tremble for civilization.
New Years Resolutions:
GZ: No more artistic compromises. I’m setting up a donation fund to get some real paint-by-number kits.
Great one word salad!
GZ : want to prove to everyone and myself the donations to my fund were not purely based on my killing an AA teen so this year I will only kill white people….yes, even if I see a suspicious AA!
Heh!
GZ: And just to show how unbiased I am, the white people I’ll kill won’t even have to be ‘suspicious,’ either.
In the words of the immortal Elmer Fudd, there’s something scwewy around here.
Per this document obtained by Click Orlando, SZ’s lawyer Kelly Sims electronically filed divorce petition 2013-DR-003572-02D-G back on 20130905:
Click Orlando PDF
And as we all ‘know,’ GZ finally got served with the divorce papers while he was in the pokey because of the domestic incident with Sheibe.
Yet try as I might, I can’t find any record of it at the Seminole County Clerk of Courts website.
*hewp*
Under fl. Law this is not viewable under sunshine so I’m surprised click Orlando was able to get a copy. It all looks pretty common..fl.is equitable state so all assets and debts acquired during marriage are split 50/50. I will say she needs to back off of wanting Oslo.asking for trouble there. And tubs will deliver it big time. By the way, adultery is of no interest to the state. We’re no fault state.
She has a good lawyer so guessing he is aiming for a trade off on debts being all his, never mind on life insurance and yes, tubs you can keep Oslo.
Thanks, 2dogsonly,
I guess I’d gotten too used to the FL Sunshine Laws.
I’m not too interested in the sordid details of a failed marriage per se, only as they touch on homicide.
Poor Oso/Bear. I don’t doubt that he loves his ‘daddy,’ because that’s how dogs are. No doubt Blondi loved her daddy, too (Godwin’s Law seems to be my favorite law to break).
Gentle Diasporites, Phil Everly is gone, gone, gone:
LAT 20130104
RIP, Phil.
In sampling that divorce petition, I was reminded that the Z’s had two dogs. The other is an eight-year-old named Leroy. Poor thing; I wonder whether either of his ‘parents’ really want him, and older dogs tend to be difficult re-adoption candidates.
Another tidbit is on page 7:
Of course, it’s under a section titled “RELOCATION OF CHILDREN,” and the dogs would be considered “property.”
While I do want GZ to live in poverty and obscurity, I also want to know where he does that (much like a sex offender because of the recidivism factor).
I think GZ is a predator, albeit a cowardly one. Just because he’s ‘lame’ doesn’t mean that he won’t kill again.
I thought about this some more.
In a more ‘perfect’ world, maybe we should have a corrections system something like that of Sweden:
Guardian 20131111
Much better to my mind than warehousing offenders at taxpayer expense (or equally bad, encourage a slave-labor industry), and risk turning them into hardened criminals.
In a system that favors short sentences with long probation, that could mean somebody like GZ might well have been convicted and sent up for a short sentence, and more importantly, received intensive counseling during a long, long probation.
I know it’s tempting to wish the worst for GZ (I have to resist it myself, and sometimes fail), but I think we should strive to be better than that.
What think you?
Oh, and lest I forget the ‘obvious,’ no guns while on probation.
Another promised ‘exclusive’ on O’Connor’s ad hoc blog:
zimmermanverdict dot net 20140104
Ya know, if O’Connor ever puts out a book with any inculpatory information, but does so too late to do any ‘good,’ I will be monumentally angry.
O’Connor has another ‘exclusive’ on her ad hoc website:
zimmermanverdict dot net 20140106
This one is a 3:50 long video (the first part of which is cut in an annoying fashion) in which she shows snippets of emails, and claims that Scheibe has been subpoenaed for a federal grand jury case.
Towards the end of the video, O’Connor claims that a “source close to” GZ says that “the couple is expecting.”
Um–yes-s-s, just what that mess needs is another innocent victim…
Xena et al at the blackbutterfly7 wordpress blog go into more detail about the federal grand jury news and its possible ramifications:
Samantha Scheibe Subpoenaed To Testify Before Federal Grand Jury
While I empathize with poster Marilyn C’s feeling that she dare not get her hopes up, at the same time, I hope racerrodig is right about this:
For those who might be pig-ignorant (like me) about federal grand juries:
Federal Judicial Center dot gov
Wonkette on GZ quoting Anne Frank:
Wonkette 20140107
GZ didn’t invent this tactic; fringe, so-called ‘conservatives’ have been doing this kind of thing for quite some time now. They’ve been trying to appropriate various holocausts (the Jews during the Third Reich, and pre-Civil War African-Americans) as analogies for their own ‘suffering.’
Why they don’t go with, say, Joseph Stalin’s atrocities is an open question. Possibly because Stalin’s crimes are nowhere near as well-documented. Or because they’re trying to attract certain demographics to their ’cause.’
But enough about politics from me.
I think GZ is an execrable excuse for a decent human being.
I saw a skeptical, pro-GZ ‘netizen’ remark that this federal grand jury thing could be about ‘anything.’
Yes, that’s possible, but if it isn’t about GZ, then why would attorney Hector Flores want copies of “her” written and video/audio statements, and why would the Seminole County Sheriff’s Office “Domestic Violence, Elder Services, and CIT Unit” be involved?
Scheibe’s been a busy little girl if she’s been involved with more than one guy who’s on the federal radar. Just sayin.’
Incidentally, part of the header on that one email seen in O’Connor’s latest video was cut off, but the phone number, (407)665-6222, belongs to the State Attorney’s Office:
Seminole County Clerk of Courts FAQ
Well, it’s now the seventh of January 2014. Even Little Christmas is over with, yet GZ still seems to be spending a lot of time on the Net flapping his gums:
GZ on Twitter
It kinda shoots down the idea that he had a job lined up for after the holidays.
He’s also pretending not to know who various Netizens critical of him are.
The killer doth protest too much, methinks.
Ya know, I actually think GZ might be trying an old tactic here:
Twitter 20140106
He pretends not to know who O”Connor is, misspells her name–and then ‘hopes’ that his supporters won’t harass her husband and kids.
If he has no idea who O’Connor is, then why would he presume that she has a husband and children?
Looks to me like GZ is trying a variation on his 2005 myspace “I can hit my boy up to handle a lil somethin with my sister and he’s at my house with his boys on bikes before i hang up with her! They do a year and dont ever open thier mouth to get my ass pinched.”
Some of GZ’s supporters are speculating about this potential federal grand jury (i.e., there isn’t one, it’s all BS, or there might be one, but it isn’t necessarily about GZ).
However, some of them have gone to the extreme of tweeting Scheibe (samantha_khope), and while she’s responded to some of their other tweets, her response to the ones about a FGJ is stoney silence.
That right there speaks volumes. If she’d never been subpoenaed for one, she’d be free to say “No.”
One of the things about this potential FGJ that interests me is that it’s not necessarily about TM’s civil rights having been violated because of race, but rather corruption.
Racial animosity has been described as a tough sell in this case (although I don’t know why it should be, given that GZ said “F*cking c**ns” only five minutes before killing African-American teenager TM), but corruption strikes me as pretty fertile ground.
This caught my attention recently:
blackbutterfly7 at wordpress
That’s terrible, but sadly not surprising, given the nature of the beast (the Internet).
There just seems to be something about the Internet that makes some people unleash the worst parts of themselves.
It makes me wonder whether whonoze, as a wordpress blog owner/operator, has been subjected to anything like that, but has just been keeping a stiff upper lip about it. I hope not on either count.
I am (again) indebted to Xena at her blackbutterfly7 wordpress blog for alerting me to the fact that wagist dot com is no longer available.
If you type that address into your browser address bar, it now redirects to dreamhost dot com (a major purveyor of webhosting services).
Very interesting. Editor Dan Linehan got pretty quiet for awhile there in 2013, only coming ‘alive’ again after GZ’s acquittal.
A look through the Wayback Machine archives suggests that wagist went offline sometime between October 11 and December 8, 2013.
I shouldn’t care overly much, but in fact, I feel an odd connection to wagist, because it was my earliest exposure to blogosphere coverage of the Trayvon Martin homicide.
I found it via a link from the comments section of a legitimate press piece on the case. The poster said that wagist provided “objective” coverage of the case, and I naively went lurking there.
I was initially impressed because Linehan did at least grasp early on that the E911 call connection times were significant, but I was quickly disillusioned, and ultimately sickened by the atmosphere there.
I was never so relieved as the day I discovered the original bcclist blog, and allowed the discussion there to heal my spirit.
Thank you, NLME, whonoze, and all who stand up and fight for what’s right, regardless of the outcome.
There’s been a lot of interesting discussion at the blackbutterfly7 wordpress blog that seems to have become somewhat derailed of late:
Discussion with Danny – Part 1 – The “BGI.”
What I myself can say about “BGI” (I’m so glad that Xena chose to put fear quotes around the initialism) is that the first time I ever saw the initialism was while lurking at the conservative tree house forum.
The regulars there kept using it, and I could tell from the context that they didn’t consider it a good thing, but ultimately I had to go to an external search engine to find out what it stood for: Black Grievance Industry.
I did an external search for the full term today, and the number one hit was the conservative tree house.
That forum uses “BGI – Black Grievance Industry” as a category of archive, and there are currently sixty pages of threads in it, going all the way back to an April 4, 2012 thread.
I don’t much like the term “Black Grievance Industry,” but if we ‘must’ have it, then I think we must also have “WGI – White Grievance Industry.”
I think there is a wide-spread perception that the ‘pie’ of desirable things may have shrunk, and everybody is fighting like junkyard dogs to make sure that they get their ‘fair share.’
Unfortunately, it seems to me that a lot of white people, males in particular, might feel like they’re not getting their ‘fair share,’ either because they perceive that they’ve got less than they used to have, or less than their fathers did.
Actually, they could be right about having less than their fathers did if their fathers benefited from white privilege, but if their grievance is that they no longer benefit from an unfair advantage, it doesn’t seem like much of a grievance.
That should have read “white male privilege.”
My apologies to white males who don’t act like entitled jerks. };-)
In the news today: Angela Corey’s office is still persecuting Marissa Alexander. Alexander is supposed to be on home detention, but she asked the Sheriff’s department for permission to go to the grocery store, the bank, and run other short routine errands. The Sheriff’s office complied, monitoring her on GPS of course, and she was typically out for mere minutes. When the prosecutors found out about this, they threw a fit, and they now want Alexander’s bond revoked, and have her tossed back in prison.
They’ve had the hearing on this before a judge, during which the prosecutor asked, “How do we know she didn’t go get a gun, for instance?”
… just take a few seconds to let the hypocrisy of all this sink in, given GZ’s freedom to move about while he was awaiting trial, and, what?, now Florida is concerned about people having guns??
*** deep breaths ***
Hmm, could the difference here be, maybe, I don’t know, RACISM or something?
I guess some mall vestige of sanity/decency remains in Florida since the judge denied the State’s request to re-imprison Alexander, and sent her back home, but NO MORE TWO MINUTE ERRANDS FOR YOU, LADY!!
The more we learn about Angela Corey, the more likely it seems to me that if the State didn’t outright tank the GZ case, at the very least they weren’t trying all that, and all that concern Corey showed was just for the cameras.
To those who may not have seen it, I recommend the 1978 film “Blue Collar” with Richard Pryor, Harvey Keitel and Yaphet Koto, a sharp analysis of class and race in America.
“That’s exactly what the company wants – to keep you on their line. They’ll do anything to keep you on their line. They pit the lifers against the new boys, the old against the young, the black against the white. Everything they do is to keep us in our place.”
The powers that be have successfully been pitting blacks against lower-class whites since emancipation. (Another film that illustrates this is “Matewan”. In the early 20th Century, when oppressed white workers would go on strike, the company would routinely import even more oppressed blacks or Mexican immigrants as scabs.)
So what we have in the case of a lot of white bigotry and racial resentment — and black hostility to working-class whites as well — are, IMHO, a lot of cognitive dissonance and projection. The REAL oppressors — the plutocracy, or, if you want to be dialectically materialist about it, capital itself — are to distant, powerful and entrenched for regular folks to even conceive of them as forces that might be challenged. Social power disappears into “just the way it is,” something like a force of nature, not human action — a process social theorists call “reification”. So the oppressed strike out at each other — on the rung above, the rung below, the other side of the tracks, etc. etc.
In Matewan, when the black strike-breaker Few Clothes (James Earl Jones) breaks ranks and comes to the camp of the striking miners, he is met with much hostility by the rank and file. The union organizer Joe Kenehan (Chris Cooper) addresses them with disappointment and anger:
“You think this man is the enemy? Huh? This is a worker! Any union keeps this man out ain’t a union, it’s a goddam club! They got you fightin’ white against colored, native against foreign, hollow against hollow, when you know there ain’t but two sides in this world – them that work and them that don’t. You work, they don’t. That’s all you get to know about the enemy.”
Too bad we don’t have voices like that in our public discourse…
I too started my TM involvement/obsession on Wagist. I know correlation does not imply causality, but FWIW, Linehan went off the radar not too long after I emailed Wagist’s publisher that Linehan’s comments most likely constituted libel against Trayvon Martin, the Martin Family, and other private citizens involved in the case, and as publisher of this stuff he faced “exposure” to defamation litigation. Whether my comment actually had any effect on Wagist, I have no idea.
Anyway, when Linehan stopped his regular posts, the pro-GZ crowd from Wagist mostly migrated to The Treehouse, where Sundance obviously didn’t give a shit, and/or to TalkLeft, where Jeralyn kept her iron mistress lid on obviously actionable character assassination (not that plenty of inference wasn’t going on still…)
Wow. This has been going on long enough that we now have Martin-Zimmerman-blogosphere nostalgia…
Yep, did the prosecution ‘overcharge?’ Based purely on the evidence released, probably, but AC did not single-handedly invent the practice of overcharging. I think if Corey had really wanted a conviction in the GZ case, she would have gotten one, and the no-brainer approach should have been manslaughter (because that was quite provable).
Thanks for saying that. I was on the verge of saying something similar (but not as eloquently put), but decided that I would sound too paranoid.
I think maybe it did. Linehan as wagist editor got vewwy, vewwy quiet there for awhile, and only got ‘brave’ again after GZ’s acquittal.
These days the wagist blog is offline, the associated wagist twitter account is silent, but Linehan is still tweeting under the handle “Danihan” (looks like that one goes back to 20110913).
I suspect the reason wagist was taken offline is not only Linehan’s own content, but the sheer, crazy, hateful remarks from some of the posters there. I think Linehan had created a monster that he couldn’t control, so the only ‘prudent’ thing he could do was pull the plug) especially with federal grand jury rumors floating around).
In my case, it’s more like low-level PTSD. I was lurking at wagist for a couple of months before I found any other case blogs to ‘balance’ it. I’d occasionally be reading something there that would start out semi-rational, and I’d be thinking, “Yes…Yes…Yes…No! How the heck do you get that out of it?!”
I still lurk at pro-GZ blogs, but the difference is that I now have an awareness of TM supporters as a sort of mental/emotional bulwark.
Thank you again.
For the record, the “Editor-In-Chief” of Wagist was a fellow named Joshua Vogel. My assumption is that he was the site owner, and technically, Linehan’s “boss”. Linehan was listed as “Managing Editor.” But I could be wrong about who was actually in charge, as those titles may be essentially meaningless. In any event, it was Vogel who wrote the ‘official’ Wagist response to the criticism of Linehan, from which I assumed he was the ultimately responsible party for the site. I could be wrong about that, though.
Though Wagist is gone, a lot of it still seems to exist in the Internet Archive. Vogel’s response to the critiques of Linehan is here: http://archive.is/CGxgu
Before the site became a Trayvon-bashing mecca, Vogel would post there on various innocuous topics. He described Wagist as “an up-and-coming web magazine” dedicated to “offbeat news and culture.” To the extent he evidenced any politics, one would probably describe them as vaguely ‘liberal.’
Exactly what his relationship to Dan Linehan was/is, and why he went along with Linehan turning the blog into non-stop Martin case ranting, I cannot say. Maybe he loved getting the traffic and was hoping the hits would get the site a higher profile that he could then exploit for other means.
So my hypothesis is that Vogel found himself in the middle of a shit-storm that wasn’t doing him or his career plans any good, and he, not Linehan, pulled the plug. Perhaps he also had demands from a real job, and once Linehan stepped back from posting, Wagist didn’t have any alternative source of content. But, again, that’s just a guess.
For the curious, I found Vogel on LinkedIn: tinyurl.com/mpm92co
“My interests and goals are as diverse as my career path. I want to make art that makes people laugh. I want to be a force for positive change in our government. I want to build a Social Media Department from the ground up.”
Hmm, nothing about racist hate-mongering… Go figure.
Yeah, I knew about Vogel being EiC, but I seem to remember him saying that Linehan had ‘invited’ him to step into that position, and that wagist was Linehan’s ‘brain-child.’
Supposedly, Linehan originally intended it as a play on “Wag the Dog,” but then liked the image of a friendly, wagging dog’s tail. I recall Linehan talking about it (not on wagist itself, but another site; if I find it again, I’ll post a link).
What a far cry from that sweet image wagist became, huh?
Another factor in shutting the site down may have been that the software used became overwhelmed by the onslaught of postings.
Still, it sat out there for a long time, dysfunctional as it was. The timing on it being taken offline is ‘curious.’
Here it is (although I was remembering the name evolution process backwards). Boldface is my edit:
Wayback Machine Archive of Steve Pavlina’s Fora on 20090219
‘Nice,’ huh?
Well, O’Connor’s got another update at her ad hoc blog, zimmermanverdict dot net:
HOW ZIMMERMAN HAS WALKED 6 TIMES SINCE ACQUITTAL
Being somewhat math-challenged, I tried to come up with six instances. Let’s see: two DV allegations, and three traffic incidents. What’s the sixth, inquiring minds want to know?
BTW, for those who are wondering about the third traffic incident: GZ had one in Winter Park (Orange County) in late November 2013. It was something about not obeying a traffic control device. From the look of things, he dragged his heels about paying the fine, and his driver’s license was suspended until he finally ponied up.
Maybe O’Connor is counting that incident as two (traffic violation and subsequent suspension of driving privileges), making a total of six?
Anyway, O’Connor ‘promises’ an update on Monday about the various law enforcement agencies that have enabled GZ.
I don’t doubt that they’ve enabled him in the past, but I kind of get the impression that since his acquittal, Florida law enforcement’s attitude might be, “We saved your bacon on the murder/manslaughter rap, but no more free rides.”
BTW, Perfesser whonoze, that link for Vogel’s LinkedIn profile didn’t work for me, perhaps because I’m not a member? Anyway, this one did work for me:
Joshua M. Vogel at LinkedIn
In perusing it, it looks like his tenure as EiC at wagist roughly coincided with his tenure at the Open Source Democracy Foundation. Hmmm, was either of those a paying gig?
Back on the subject of wagist dot com, and Linehan:
While the current whois info for wagist doesn’t reveal the human being owner name, it used to, and that was Linehan. The registration for it is due to expire 20140430 but that still doesn’t explain why the website went offline some time in the last quarter of 2013.
Perhaps Vogel asked Linehan to shut down wagist because the former started a new job in September 2013, and the content on that website was embarrassing(?).
Vogel did come off (to me) as embarrassed in his apologia for Linehan.
While the registration for wagist goes all the way back to 20080430, per Linehan’s comments on the Steven Pavlina forum, the website only went ‘live’ in February 2009, and that seems borne out by what I see in the Wayback Machine archives.
However, the associated wagist twitter account seems only to go back as far as March 2012, and the oldest tweet contains a link to an incendiary posting about TM on wagist dot com.
As I’ve done since early 2012, I just keep looking for explanations as to why some otherwise seemingly sane people become rabid GZ supporters. A casual perusal of Linehan’s Danihan tweets makes him sound fairly progressive, until you factor in his remarks about the Trayvon Martin homicide–and concealed carry.
Is it that simple? Is Linehan just another ‘gun nut?’ Why would a guy living in Marin County, California feel a need to pack heat? What, somebody might try to cut line in front of you at Whole Foods?
(Incidentally, on 20110910 at wagist, Vogel joked about liberals needing to get guns in order to provide him with cover while he ran from Whole Foods back to his Prius).
If Linehan were a true Libertarian, I wouldn’t expect him to assassinate the character of TM in order to defend GZ. Is he just a sh*t disturber? A cynical sophist?
One thing it might illustrate is that the Golden State is not quite as liberal as its reputation. This is the same state that twice elected The Redhead and Ahnold as governor, not to mention legislation (since overturned) to prohibit same-sex marriages.
It’s a huge state, and while the major metropolitan areas do tend to be liberal, there are vast rural areas that tend to be conservative. I’ll always remember an older woman telling me that the coastal town of Pacifica was at one time dominated by a particular religious group, and during their tenure, there was a municipal law on the books that required residents to have their window shades up by a certain time in the morning. Don’t know how true that is, because I can’t find any supporting information.
If there was an award for digression, I’d be in the running. };-)
@wordsalad RE: Racism you are seeing
I think a good analogy for what you are seeing is Germany in 1939 which led to the Jews being scapegoated as the cause. Ours happened in 9/2008 and our first black president took office 4 months later. In those 4 months, people lost 50% of their home values, then their jobs, then their pension and 401 values plummeted, then their credit cards were cancelled as many banks were failing leaving people without a credit card to charge even food on. It was only by pumping 3 trillion ( not a typo btw) into the economy that banks were not forced to close to prevent a ” run on”.
The devastation was so rapid that the anger to arrest someone and re instate laws preventing local banks from investing like drug lords, was replaced with the need for a job. And the Koch brothers were able to sell the idea it was the govt.’s excessive regulation and then add the illusion it was the poor people who obtained mortgages they could not pay if their refrigerator so much as broke down. I mean it was a massive ponzu scheme but feeding your family became number one priority and this immense feeling of powerlessness had to go somewhere. So like in 1939 Germany, the blacks were symbolized as what is wrong with America.
The parking meters in Chicago, bridge tolls, the sports complexes in many cities are no longer “owned”by their city but are rented to oil rich Arab countries who then collect the tolls, entrance fees,etc.They almost rented the use of the allegheny highway , a source of great pride as it was built through a massive rock mountain.The citizens voted that down. Cities had to do this to keep basic services like street lights on. With property taxes not being paid and jobs lost the dominoes fell on each other. The “too big to fail”banks escaped unharmed, e.g., Wachovia was a major money laundering bank for the Mexican drug cartel….they paid a 5-6 billion fine but no criminal charges. Guess who recently bought the LA times? The Koch brothers so California has it’s celebrity liberal zip codes but they are also comprised of the other 99% who were left holding the bag.cue the defense of scapegoating, in this case the poor which are mostly AA.
I would like to digress to Chris Christy but since it’s not my blog will wait for Whonoze to give go ahead. This is going to be really really interesting.Whonoze heads up or no?
The scapegoating of Jews during the Third Reich started earlier than 1939, but point taken.
Bad economic times do tend to turn The Little People into mobs looking for a scapegoat.
Vogel at wagist 20110910- Progressives, it’s time to go buy your guns.
Did Vogel and Linehan talk offline about the sociopolitical climate in this country, and whether there might be a revolution? I’m sure it was no accident that Vogel posted his piece on the eve of the tenth anniversary of 9/11.
Vogel the self-described liberal/progressive, and Linehan the self-described progressive/libertarian: because of or despite them, wagist devolved into a vicious, racist hate-fest.
Well, I definitely don’t speak for whonoze, but he might welcome some topics other than GZ. Dunno how closely he reads on a day-to-day basis.
If you insist on waiting for his formal permission, then you might want to consider getting his attention by a post containing two links. That triggers an alert for intervention to a wordpress owner/operator. };-)
“The scapegoating of Jews during the Third Reich started earlier than 1939…”
But then again, so did the economic distress, partly because of the punitive reparations made part of the surrender treaty the Allies got Germany to sign at the end of the first World War.
As for the Christie situation, it should probably get its own thread, as this one is already getting unwieldy with just the one topic.
Yah, as bad as the Great Depression of the 1930s was in the U.S., it was worse in Germany, and the terms of the WWI surrender didn’t help.
We probably do need a new thread, as this one is approaching 400.
I’ll be the naughty multiple linker, seeing as I’m ‘good’ at it. };-)
Yoo hoo, whonoze. Could we pretty please have a new thread?
I’m too verklempt; tawk amongst yourselves:
wikipedia on Kristallnacht
wikipedia on Chris Christie
New thread up: https://whonoze.wordpress.com/2014/01/11/hi2014/