A close look at the “challenge” interview suggests the State may have tanked its case
Consider this exchange from George Zimmerman’s “challenge” interview with Chris Serino and Doris Singleton, as the investigators go over GZ’s NEN call with him:
—
CS: OK.
(plays tape 0:39 to 0:48)
DS: Can you just pause that for a minute? OK, when you explained it to me, you said you had pulled over initially at the clubhouse, correct?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: OK, but it seems so fast, and then I thought you told me, and you can correct me if I’m wrong, I thought you said they asked you, can you still see him, and you said, you told them you couldn’t, and you asked, and they said, well get to where you can see where he’s at. And you told me it was at that point you moved.
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: Now you’re saying he’s coming up to your car. Does that mean you’ve already, at this point in the tape, you’re already on Twin Tree, the street you didn’t know the name of at the time?
GZ: Um, no, I was on, I called when I was at the clubhouse.
DS: OK, but he’s walking up to your car now, right?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: On the tape. Cause you’re saying he’s walking up.
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: You’re talking about when you’ve already left the clubhouse and now you’re on the corner.
GZ: No, ma’am. I’m at the clubhouse.
DS: You’re still at the clubhouse
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: when he does this?
GZ: Mm hmm.
DS: OK.
(plays tape 0:49 to 1:03)
DS: OK, pause it right there. OK, where’s he, where, where are you at now? Are you still at the clubhouse?
GZ: I think I’m still at the clubhouse, yes.
DS: OK.
(plays tape 1:03 to 1:16)
DS: Have you moved yet?
GZ: I don’t think so.
DS: You’re still in front of the clubhouse?
GZ: I think so.
DS: On Retreat View Circle.
GZ: Yes, ma’am. I don’t remember even saying he had a button on his shirt.
DS: OK.
(plays tape 1:16 to 1:18)
CS: So something’s wrong with him.
(plays tape 1:18 to 1:20?)
CS: What’s that statement supposed to mean?
GZ: I don’t know.
CS: OK.
(plays tape 1:20 to 1:28)
DS: OK, where are you at now? Are you still in front of the clubhouse?
GZ: I don’t remember.
CS: OK.
(plays tape 1:28 to 1:34)
CS: That statement. These assholes…what’s behind that?
GZ: People that victimize the neighborhood.
DS: Didn’t you just tell us in there that a week earlier they made an arrest?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: So they don’t always get away.
GZ: No.
CS: Good point.
(plays tape 1:34 to 1:50)
CS: What’s happening now? Are you guys walking now, is he walking?
GZ: No, that’s, I was parked where I could see him now.
CS: So you’re…
DS: OK, so you’re definitely not in front of the clubhouse any more, at this point?
GZ: No.
CS: So you’re ahead of him?
GZ: No, I was behind him.
CS: OK, so you walked to your car, then walked along this path and you were you were behind him?
GZ: Yes, sir.
CS: OK.
GZ: When I was at the clubhouse he walked…
CS: Are you driving slowly or something?
GZ: No, I pulled over and stopped before I called.
—
I cannot see how Serino and Singleton could pursue this line of questioning — asking GZ where he was at what time in the NEN call — without being aware of the physical impossibilities in his account.
If GZ is parked at the clubhouse while he describes Martin approaching his truck, then “he’s got something in his hands, I don’t know what his deal is” which GZ finished speaking at 7:11:00, places both GZ and TM in front of the clubhouse at that time. GZ begins describing the location his truck on TTL at 7:11:20. In the “re-enactment” video, it takes Randy Smith 43 seconds to pull out from the clubhouse and drive to GZ’s parking spot on TTL. Perhaps Mario Andretti could have covered that distance in 20 seconds, but not George Zimmerman.
Zimmerman notices Trayvon running down the dogwalk at 7:11:40. Could Trayvon have covered more distance is less time on foot (walking leisurely, remember) than Smith did by car? It’s approximately 170 yards from the front of the clubhouse to the T. Normal walking speed is 1.5 yds/sec. Thus, at a normal walking pace, it would have taken Trayvon about 113 seconds to cover that distance. He would have to have been running at an average pace to get there in 40 seconds.
But, of course, according to Zimmerman, Trayvon did not just travel from the clubhouse to the cut-through sidewalk and break into a run near the T. Zimmerman says TM walked down the dog-walk behind the houses, then re-emerged after a moment, walked back to the truck, circled it, and then walked back to the T and disappeared behind the houses a second time. This adds approximately 130 to the path. Meaning Trayvon would had to have covered 400 yards in 40 seconds. That’s approximately the pace Michael Johnson ran in setting the world record for 400 meters, and even Johnson at his best couldn’t run that fast wearing flats and khakis over grass and asphalt. And, of course, GZ says TM was walking the whole time.
Now, I can’t imagine Serino and Singleton would have pursued the line of questions above unless they were aware of the time discrepancies between the NEN call and GZ’s statements. And even if they hadn’t been aware of them before the “challenge” interview, I can’t imagine that Zimmerman’s responses didn’t make the problem plainly apparent. I certainly can’t imagine any competent prosecutor reviewing the transcript or tape of this interview, utterly failing to put two and two together, querying Serino and Singleton further on the subject, and confirming the discrepancy with their own measurements of distance and time.
Thus, Serino’s testimony during the trial would seem to have offered the perfect opportunity for the Prosecution to present the stopwatch-and-map evidence in combination with the NEN to establish some major falsehoods in GZ’s account of the events of 2/26/2012. And, frankly, I can see no excuse for their failing to do so. Granted, they were going easy on all the police witnesses to avoid any hint of cover-up and corruption within the SPD. But querying Serino on this subject would not have exposed him in any way. The predicate is right in the interview transcript. Zimmerman’s account was fishy from a timeline standpoint, Serino and Singleton knew it (or at least suspected), and they got answers from Zimmerman that prove his story was bogus. All they needed to do was use the occasion of Serino’s testimony to point that out: replay that part of the NEN call, replay the part of the interview quoted above, get out a map with distances marked, connect the dots.
So it seems to me that what we have here is either incompetence that stretches credulity, or a conscious decision to exclude incriminating evidence, which is even more troubling.
Continuing with the watch-map-NEN call theme, Serino and Singleton ALSO nail GZ on the discrepancy at the OTHER end of the timeline — the “walking back to his car.”
—
CS: OK.
(plays tape 2:47 to 3:06)
CS: What are you doing right now?
GZ: Walking back to my car.
CS: OK.
(plays tape 2:17 to 2:41)
CS: OK, if I time this portion, this is important, OK? I almost gotta reconstruct this.
(plays tape 2:16 to 2:41)
CS: When do you start walking back to your car? Time here. You’re going towards Retreat View, right?
GZ: Yeah.
CS: OK.
(plays tape 2:28 to 2:41)
CS: OK, where you at now?
GZ: I think on Retreat View Circle.
CS: OK. Is that 2:41? OK.
(plays tape 2:41 to 2:47)
CS: OK, you’re walking back to your car?
GZ: Yes, sir,
(plays tape 2:48 to 4:03 )
GZ: I’m thumping the damn flashlight as I was walking through.
(call ends)
DS: How long is that?
CS: It’s 84 seconds. From the point where you were walking back to your car from Retreat View to Twin Tree basically.
DS: It’s what, about 30 feet.
CS: That’s a minute and…20 seconds. Did you stop at the “T”?
GZ: No, I walked through. I stopped on Retreat View Circle.
CS: That’s where you were standing?
GZ: Yes, sir.
CS: OK. But you didn’t get back into your car?
GZ: No, sir.
CS: Why not?
GZ: I was…
CS: You’re in the rain, you’re getting wet, you’re on the phone.
GZ: Because I was waiting, I, the, I had light there…
CS: So…
GZ: Where I was at and I was trying to hit my flashlight. I didn’t want to walk back through without light.
CS: OK, a minute and 20 seconds.
GZ: Yes, sir.
CS: OK, you’re in the rain, getting wet. You’ve wrote this guy off basically, you’re gonna meet the police. OK, you see where the obstacle is here?
GZ: Yes, sir.
CS: OK, I want you to think about that. I am speaking for you, for everybody. I’m trying to, trying to do the best I can here.
GZ: Yes, sir.
CS: It’s a minute and 20 seconds. It doesn’t sound like you were saying, well it doesn’t sound like you quite recall exactly what happened at that point, OK? (unintelligible) something else. This is not right? OK.
—
So confronted with the time discrepancy, GZ CHANGES HIS STORY from ‘I was still on the phone with NEN as I began walking to back to my car,” which he had also asserted in the walk-through, to ‘I stood there on RVC banging on my flashlight for 1:20.” Instead of trying to get an acceptable explanation for this “obstacle”, Serino just avers “well it doesn’t sound like you quite recall exactly,” and then Singleton changes the subject back to GZ’s “Oh shit, he’s running” remark. So we’re supposed to believe that after walking all that way to “get an address,” GZ DOESN’T get an address, but just stands at the end of the sidewalk whacking his phallashlight for a minute and a half? That makes no sense, and not just because he would have been standing in the rain. GZ’s claim that Noffke was arranging a meeting with the arriving officer at his truck is his excuse for not following through to actually get an address. If GZ was banging on his torch, he didn’t need to be standing in place while he did so. He could have walked another 20 feet or so and actually found an address. And he claims, “I didn’t want to walk back through without light,” when we all know he had another flashlight that was found ON near the T. Even without that second flashlight, he would have had no trouble finding his way back to his truck, as the path would have been outlined by the ambient light coming over from TTL.
Finally, confronted with the fact that he canceled the arranged meeting at the mailboxes with the arriving officer, “Actually could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at?” GZ comes up with this gem.
—
DS: Why did you tell them, never mind just have them call me when they get here and I’ll tell them where I’m at?
GZ: I was frustrated that I couldn’t think of the street name where I was…
DS: But you were gonna be back in your car from that distance in less than 15 or 20 seconds. So why would they need to call you?
GZ: I felt like I didn’t give them an adequate description of where I was from the clubhouse.
DS: OK, cause you know what the impression would be, is that you’re gonna continue to look and when they get here you’d just tell ‘em where you’re at, at that point. You see what I’m saying? Well…no, never mind
CS: Just keep the (unintelligible)
DS: just tell ‘em to call me when they get here, and I’ll tell ‘em where I’m at. Meaning I might not be at my car. Where I just told ‘em I would be.
CS: I mean, you know, we’re here working for you here, OK?
GZ: Yes, sir.
CS: OK
GZ: I know…
—
OK, let’s just ignore the “no, never mind” and “we’re working for you here” remarks that let GZ off without actually addressing the question any further, and note that he said, “I felt like I didn’t give them an adequate description of where I was from the clubhouse.” Uhh, only 3 SECONDS had passed from the moment he agreed to meet the officer AT THE MAILBOXES, so how could he possibly be concerned about his description of his position in relation to the clubhouse?
So, all in all, Zimmerman seriously stuck his foot in his mouth 3 times during the “challenge” interview.
Did you get that impression during the trial?
Well, neither did anybody else, because the Prosecution simply avoided their ample opportunity to call these things to the jury’s attention. And, again, they could even have done so without putting Serino or Singleton in any kind of bind. The State’s strategy, if you can call it that, seems to have been to introduce most of the key pieces of evidence, explaining or emphasizing almost NOTHING, then expect the jury to take all the myriad documents and recordings back to the deliberation room, parse the meaningful parts away from the noise, and put the pieces of the puzzle together by themselves. Really? What can I say except, “That’s real retarded, sir!”
whonoze 
Um, yeah. Watching this during the trial was like watching an elevator operator shove your kids down an open shaft with a smile and a uniform.
i thought it was incredibly telling however when BDLR waved his T intersection map at Serino and asked him his opinion of “where it started. ” Serino pointed off the map to where the the clubhouse would have been and said, “as far as I’m concerned, it started over there.”
And we’ll probably never know exactly what Serino meant by that, since Bernie de la Potted Plant never asked him to explain or follow up in any way. It was as if he hadn’t heard Serino say it.
While there are many possible explanations for the prosecution’s inability to coherently present their case, I’m going to go with incompetence due to never following through with a full investigation that laid out the timing of the NEN call recording in comparison and contrast to GZ’s statements to SPD.
While they did seem to pay slight lip service to the general ideas that GZ’s story was inconsistent, and that he may have even “followed by car” but when the prosecution invoked that idea they were still swallowing GZ’s basic false narrative I feel.
The idea that they knew all the angles and failed to play them seems a bigger stretch to me than to imagine that they simply never connected the dots.
BTW, the mixed-race juror has spoken to ABC’s Good Morning America. She felt morally it seems that GZ was a murderer and legally that she had to follow the jury instructions regarding how he felt the moment before he pulled the trigger, and eventually acquit him.
http://gma.yahoo.com/george-zimmerman-juror-says-got-away-murder-180513862–abc-news-topstories.html
Here’s a link to a yahoo news ABC/ GMA tie-in article.
I’m also quite livid that one of the prosecutors (I think it was BDLR) even used the term “challenge interview” when referring to this at some point after the defense had ingrained it into the jurors’ heads. By going along with that term, they essentially agreed to the characterization that Serino was just playing bad cop and so they can dismiss any issues raised in that interview. Ok, maybe BDLR did say something like “the defense is calling it that, we’re not” but still, they couldn’t come up with their own term or, like Whonoze pointed out, completely missed the boat and let this huge opportunity to highlight these lies essentially sail right on by.
Thank you whonoze, I’ve added this to my evidence pile under “What’s happening now”
Not to hijack this topic but the juror B29 has now appeared on ABC’s Good Morning America twice, on the 5:30 network newscast and featured on an episode of ABC’s Nightline. I’ve only been able to find the first appearance so far and wondered if anyone here had seen the additional broadcasts and could comment on what additional information she gave about the juror’s experience.
okay here is the ABC nightline clip. It appears that she gave one interview only and the other shows are pulling clips from it. ABC claims the “entire interview” will air on Friday’s GMA.
She speaks about the manslaughter instructions (and gets it completely wrong) saying she thought that unless “we could prove” that GZ left his house with the intent to kill the teen they could not find for manslaughter.
Curiously she sits with her lawyer at the interview table and he isn’t asked to comment on the clearly wrong interpretation of the law that she speaks to as her reasons for voting to acquit the defendant. I can almost excuse her for not knowing or understanding the law but it’s frustrating to see how poorly the prosecution seems to have explained to the jury what manslaughter is.
I see nothing from this jury but ignorance, bias and stupidity. And I saw little from the prosecution to counter that.
And getting back on topic, the investigators charged with this case are also clearly incompetent as well.
This really is upsetting. How is it possible that the jurors came up thinking that manslaughter means GZ thought about killing when living his house? What Murder 2 is for?
Welcome to Florida.
As aussie discovered and posted over at FLLB (which I really can’t bear to read anymore…) B29’s attorneys have a rabid pro-Z rant up on their website, to the effect of “the whole case was prosecutorial misconduct driven by unscrupulous agitators like Al Sharpton.” I wonder how B29 got hooked with that particular council. Someone else on the jury maybe? Maybe the same juror(s) that helped B29 interpret the judge’s instructions? This poor woman is naught but a pawn in a much bigger game, and the vilification she is receiving now is stupid, ugly and racist. Michael Eric Dyson actually said something I agree wiith (for a change) on Melissa Harris-Perry’s show today: blaming b29 for the acquittal is like blaming the thumb that’s too weak to plug the massive hole in the dyke.
Welcome to Florida. Now that you are all here we can let down our hair.
That’s truly sad about the lawyers who got their hooks into juror B29. It’s like she got soviet style “handlers” at her side during her one ABC news interview with a tv host who wasn’t asking the right questions – or wasn’t allowed to?
Have you folks seen the Slate article about her? It reads like a page from 1984
I think too many people are not seeing the forest for the trees with this, and by that I mean they fall into the trap of accepting all of the premises put forth by Zimmerman, his lawyers, and his advocates. The premise they put forth is that everyone else always has to prove everything to them, in accordance to a standard which they alone define, and they alone are the arbiters of truth. Therefore, according to this premise, and according to this standard, nothing has been proven, and thus George is an innocent man.
The whole premise of his legal defense was, and the Prosecution and the Judge never dared challenge such a premise, was that George Zimmerman and only George Zimmerman alone determines his own guilt or innocence, on the basis of whether or not he says he “believed” his life was in danger. Because George claims that he “believed” his life was in danger, therefore it is a justified killing, and because nobody else can prove what he was really thinking, he is not guilty.
Zimmerman’s whole story, like his entire defense, is based upon the false premise that it is REQUIRED for others to believe whatever he says. In many ways throughout the trial the defense drove this point over and over, and the Prosecution and the Judge never challenged these assertions because they were all really on the same team the trial was nothing but theatre, but never did anyone ever cite any statute or case law to back it up, because such an assertion is the definition of absurd.
Forget about “Stand Your Ground” or self defense, or any of a number of other legal issues, falling into those arguments only serves Zimmerman because it allows him to avoid the examination of the entire central premise of his defense, that there is some kind of legal REQIREMENT for the police or the court, or for anyone else for that matter, to believe what he says. Zimmerman, his defense, and the Sanford police need to avoid any critical examination of their shared foundational premise, because such a critical examination lays bare the fact that neither can properly account for their actions on the night of February 26, 2012, and thus they must be held to account.
If the standard that Zimmerman and the Sanford Police argue were true, anybody could murder anyone, at anytime, for any reason, or for no reason whatsoever, and all they would have to do is claim that they felt scared, or threatened, or whatever, and that’s it, case closed. Not only can you not be convicted, the police cannot even arrest you. This premise taken further, would make it impossible to arrest anyone for the commission of any crime, until and unless they issued a confession.
THE WHOLE PREMISE OF THE DEFENSE IS THAT NOBODY, NOT THE JURY, NOT ANYONE, IS ALLOWED TO CHALLEGE THE CREDIBILITY AND INTEGRITY OF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN AND THE SANFORD POLICE DEPARTMENT.
Arguing all these other things only further legitimizes their position.
As for the Sanford Police, of course they were in the tank for Zimmerman. He was a model plebe, and they had other conflicts of interest which compromised them, which I discussed in my piece posted below. It was written more than a year ago when the original discovery was released, but what I wrote proved to be spot on, with the exception of the fact that the Zimmerman side expected the outcome of the election to be quite different, which then would have made it safe for them to just have the charges tossed without ever going to trial.
Just because they called it a “Challenge Interview” doesn’t mean Zimmerman was being challenged in any way. If you watch and listen to all of the interviews it is transparent that they are simply coaching him through the process, and on the few occasions where they even moderately challenge his statements, just to attempt to maintain appearances, Zimmerman fails miserably is most of those instances, which results in the police quickly cutting him off and changing the subject before he can do any further damage to himself.
The most compelling instance of where the cops are only working with one objective, that being to protect Zimmerman, is when Serino plays the 911 call from Jenna Lauer where you hear the screams. Right there Serino stops the tape and says to George, and a very assertive tone, “Hear that. That’s you.” What Serino is telling him is that this is what we need your story to be, we need you to say YOU were the one screaming for help.
Zimmerman, being the imbecile that he is, doesn’t even really understand why Serino is telling him this, and he nervously answers, “But that doesn’t even sound like me.”
To me, that was second only to when Zimmerman had to address the judge as to whether or not he planned to testify. Much was made in the media about the first exchange because that was when the Judge and West engaged in their theatrical display of animosity one last time. However, what was far more compelling was the second exchange.
About an hour after the Judge and West had their final dust up, the Judge asked Zimmerman if he was going to testify, to which Zimmerman responded, “At this hearing?” The Judge was overcome with disbelief, as I’m sure most others were as well, and corrected Zimmerman and told him, “No, at this TRIAL.”
This was so revealing on so many levels, because obviously Zimmerman has had all of these endless meetings with lawyers where they have endlessly explained to him the whole broader chess game the matter has become, encompassing not only State but also Federal charges, as well as civil where he can be compelled to testify.
What this exchange reveals is that Zimmerman KIND OF gets it, but for the most part it is all just, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, while he just sits there in a fog from Zolof, or Paxil, or whatever. To Zimmerman, it is all just a blur, and all he knows is that there is going to be more of it, and you win some, you lose some, and if it ever doesn’t work out, well then Daddy is just gonna get him another hearing, with another lawyer, and another judge.
What I think all of you are missing is that because you get all caught up in all of this argument is that all of the people on the other side of it all full well know that George is stone cold guilty, and his cover story is just that. In friendly company they admit that sure, of course George is lying, but you got to cut corners sometimes, and all George did is kill some burglar before he could commit another crime.
Granted, that’s not true, that Treyvon was a burglar, but that is how they rationalize it all away, but they all know that George is lying, it just doesn’t make a difference to them.
The only way Zimmerman ever is going to be convicted of anything is if his credibility is judged, and the integrity of the investigation of the Sanford Police is examined. Failing to do so because your adversaries assert that doing such is out of bounds will only deliver the same outcome.
I don’t know what is going to happen from here, but my guess is that there is a far greater chance than some in the media claim of the DOJ seeking an indictment from the Federal Grand Jury early next month, and if they secure an indictment it will be interesting to see whether or not the Judge and the Prosecutor roll over when Zimmerman and his lawyers try to admit into evidence that iPhone photo of him with the broken nose.
Just maybe George is going to find out what it is like when Daddy doesn’t pick the Prosecutor, the Judge, and the jury.
http://redyankeepress.blogspot.com/2012/05/zimmerman-gets-little-help-from-cracker.html
Nice post. Many things are possible. What GZ claims happened is not possible.
His lack of credibility is a given among those who have examined the evidence. What’s still unexplained is why anyone chose to believe him or to pretend to believe him, or to advocate that others believe him.
@ wordlifee
I looked at the SPD video again. It’s Tim Smith getting out of the cruiser, not Raimondo.
I haven’t approved your post as I consider it an utterly unsupported conspiracy theory, and not appropriate for this forum.
Fascinating material.
I did not see any of the trial and paid relatively little attention to the case before that. It was while googling “Zimmerman’s lies” to see if Zimmerman had been caught in any lies that I came across your blog.
I must admit that I did not read all of the material here, but only a couple of hours worth over the lwo months.
Here are some of my thoughts about things that surprised me.
1. Zimmerman was on his way to a grocery store and was not on patrol that night. Who the fuck carries a cancelled gun with them when they go to a grocery store? 2. Trayvon Martin had no reason to be looking in windows of burgled houses as Zimmerman reported. Rather Zimmerman had a reason to report him doing so in order to justify getting the police to come to the neighborhood. If he had just reported a kid staying under an awning in the rain, whould the police have come?
When Zimmerman says, “They always get away,” it is probable that he is referring to the blacks men that Zimmerman constantly calls the police on (5 times in the prior 6 months to the killing).. It seems that Zimmerman had a policy of calling the police to harass black men in his neighborhood. This suggests that Zimmerman had adopted a policy of actively looking for black men in his neighborhood.
Helping the police to arrest a criminal would have made Zimmerman a hero. It seems that this is what Zimmerman wanted to be more than anything else. Thus his attempt to become a police officer and his attempt to organize neighborhood watch patrols.
When Trayvon Martin started to run, Zimmerman suddenly felt confirmed in his estimation that Martin was a criminal. Zimmerman wanted to make the collar and be given credit for it.
He followed Martin and wrestled him to the ground. But when he was on top of Martin, he must have realized that Martin was no criminal, but a frightened kid yelling for help, and throwing some weak punches. If the police came then, not only would Zimmerman not be considered a hero, but he would probably be arrested for assault on a minor. Zimmerman tried to silence him by covering his mouth, but he still wouldn’t stop yelling, Zimmerman finally shot him.
Martin was going to be Zimmerman’s criminal catch even if Zimmerman had to kill him to do it.
Welcome Jay,
It looks like you understood quickly what was in Georgie’s mind.
I’m still shocked by the inability of the Jurors to grab what a depraved mind means, and yet you summarize it so well.
I personally never thought that GZ is a racist, though. I see him as a serial failure with ego.
The mismatch between what he tells people he want to do for himself and what he effectively ever accomplished is inescapable. His last goal was to be a police officer and he spent three years working on that goal. And yet, he failed his Associate Degree.
Trayvon had to pay for Geroge’s frustrations. There is no single statement he made to police where he did not associate Trayvon with the THEY who victimize the neighborhood. It did not matter that he never saw him before. He just knew. That’s why he killed him and by definition this is Murder 2.
You guys probably heard about GZ getting pulled over for speeding in Texas (and then being let go with a warning.) Thing is, he had his gun in his glove compartment. Wonder if this was his regular thing, to have it in the glove compartment while driving like say to Target???? You’d think that now more than ever he’d want to have it on him, but then again, he may have just thrown it in there just before the cop came up, so he wouldn’t have to be frisked. Who knows.
Another thing, if you watch the video, you can see how at ease the cop was with him. GZ tells him he has a gun in the glove compartment, but the cop doesn’t tell him to step outside of the vehicle while he checks it. Nope, he’s like, sure show me your gun. Seems like the cops got his back everywhere he goes.
The thing that actually made me laugh is that he was pulled for over-speeding. I mean, during the voice stress, he told the technician that he never over-speeds.
The cops who used social media seem to be generally applauding GZ. It might be a stretch to say that the majority of cops are on GZ’s side, but it looks like a significant share of the cop population really is.
Odd that he still has the same Florida license plate number. The cop cam audio revealed his drivers license number too. Of course we already know his social security number thanks to BDLR. WTF? Are they trying to get the SOB killed, or make him rich via lawsuits?
Drongo at JusticeQuest once pointed-out that there is a grayish Ridgeline in the reenactment video, parked across the street and down a bit from Taffee’s. After seeing the dark tinted rear window of George’s Ridgeline in the cop cam vid, I took another look at Ridgeline in the reenactment video, and it appears to have tinted windows all around. It’s kind of hard to be sure due to lighting / video quality, but you can see into the car parked in front of it, and you can see into the Jeep parked on the other side of the street from it. Can’t see a damn thing in Z’s creepermobile.
Onan,
It could be an interesting observation that you’re making here. We have to line that up with what DeeDee & GZ said TM was able to see inside the car.
Interesting observation about the possible Honda Ridgeline near Taffee’s. Looks like GZ wanted once again to meet at the clubhouse maybe? Or, one could even speculate that this is where the truck was moved to post-shooting.
But once again we are all left to speculate. While GZ may prefer tinted windows, one cannot tint the front windshield usually. If TM was looking from “near the clubhouse now” towards GZ as he sat parked facing the mail kiosk, he could have seen him well enough once he got close. GZ was able to see the button on TM’s hoodie.
I don’t see a Ridgeline in the walk-through. There’s a silver/gray pickup parked on the wrong side of the street about half way between GZ’s and Taaffe’s, but it appears to be a Dodge — at least the front grill is quite different from the Ridgeline photo on tchoupi’s page.
Here’s a screenshot:
http://imgur.com/gqgDLAS
George’s Ridgeline is about 23 seconds into the reenactment vid, across the street from the Jeep. I’d post a link to the vid, but I can’t find a decent one in HD at the moment, and my computer is too behaving too sluggishly to look.
Ah, I see where I screwed you up. I said the Ridgeline was down the street from Taffee’s house. I meant George’s house. Sorry.
Thanks, MOB:
It does make sense that that’s GZ’s truck, as it appears to have been parked in the nearest availabe street spot to his house, perhaps so the cops could pull into the driveway. It’s darker than I had imagined it being, from GZ referring to it as ‘silver’, and from tchoupi’s note that a “light colored truck” is visible in the Kitchen camera video. But looking at that frame from the Kitchen camera again. I think it is consistent with the darker gray of the vehicle seen in the “re-enactment” being illuminated by the (relatively bright in comparison to the background) lights of the clubhouse front door.
Don’t know if this helps or if it’s old news or what, but George’s Ridgeline appears to be a 2008 RTS or RTL. RTL is top-of-the-line. According to info from a Ridgelihe owners forum, the only exterior difference between it & the RTS is, the RTL has polished, machined rims & a sunroof.
The RTL, incidentally, is available with a GPS navigation system (but it’s not standard). Roof Rack is not standard on any 2008 Ridgeline. RTX has a trailer hitch & the others have flat black door handles and/or mirrors.
George’s appears to be “Nimbus Gray Metallic,” but I guess it’s possible that it’s “Billet Silver Metallic.” Apparently, it’s listed as gray, (the police dispatcher in the Forney Texas speeding vid says it’s gray). George says it silver. IDK, I think it’s nimbus gray.
I agree that the relatively dark color of Georges Ridgeline does not rule it out as the vehicle in the Kitchen vid.
Here’s a link to the 2008 Ridgeline RTL page at Edmunds (shows available colors):
http://www.edmunds.com/honda/ridgeline/2008/features-specs.html?style=100890756
Here’s a 360 view:
media.ed.edmunds-media.com/honda/ridgeline/2008/evox/2008_honda_ridgeline_crew-cab-pickup_rtl_exp_evox_1_9998.swf
Argggh. Here again is the link to the 360 view, unbroken this time, hopefully:
http://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/honda/ridgeline/2008/evox/2008_honda_ridgeline_crew-cab-pickup_rtl_exp_evox_1_9998.swf
The town he was stopped in is just east of Dallas on the main interstate. Were he headed to the closest border crossing into Mexico he would have been on a different route. But depending on where he wanted to go IN MEXICO, were that his wish, he may have been going through Dallas to get there.
I note that he was alone. I suspect Shellie can’t leave the state as part of her bond deal for the perjury charge. Looks like he can’t afford a driver or a bodyguard either. Ands of course we don’t really know if his family or wife care to be with him anymore now that the trial is over. I suspect they know at least as much as we can – that he lacks credibility over the incident and was just lucky to get off. It’s probable none of them expected him to be acquitted.
If I had to make a guess I’d say he’s accepted an offer to hide out with a wealthy supporter for a while.
Hard to tell if there’s someone else in the truck due to the pixelation in the vid, but to me it looks like there is.
You don’t think a little perjury charge would stop Shellie from doing whatever the hell she wants, do you? Maybe she wanted to go shopping. Forney IS “The Antique Capital of Texas” (according to Wiki).
I made some slow progress to the report: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Sy6soSh3-wG7v9j20_3189BJh8ZqYDVAX73C95QkFFs/edit?usp=sharing
I decided to put the images explaining the various light patterns in an appendix. All the patterns are now shown. I’ll be able to start building the correlation table.
Good stuff!
Thanks Willi.
I have added a correlation table: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Sy6soSh3-wG7v9j20_3189BJh8ZqYDVAX73C95QkFFs/edit?usp=sharing
The table lists all the light events I could find without making any comment or assumption except for what I see as direct correlations (1 vehicle generating events in various cameras).
Any feedback is welcome. Ideally, I would get people checking what is in the table is correct and makes sense.
tchoupi:
Could you add to the page with the light events table both:
a) what we estimate to be the clock-time of the start of the security footage timing (i.e. 00:00 = 6:XX:XX)?
b) your current best estimate of the range of error in the above?
(i.e. ‘I’m sure 00:00 is somewhere between 6:XX:XX and 6:YY:YY’)?
I’m sorry, but I don’t have the patience to go through the videos and check your markings of the light events. It seems to me you have scrutinized these very carefully, with your scientist’s/engineer’s attention to detail, and I can’t imagine I could do as well, much less improve on your data. You are the Light Event Master, and I trust your findings.
tchoupi:
Looking again at the frame of the truck captured by the Kitchen camera in light of M Onan’s comment:
a) It does seem consistent with the truck parked near GZ’s in the “re-enactment”, down to the possible presence of the roof-rack rails.
b) Maybe this is old news, but I’m thinking it’s coming in at an angle to the clubhouse, not going straight in line with RVC. Not only does it appear closer the the camera than it would be were it on the street, it seems to me to be slightly foreshortened, as it would be if it was at an angle pointing somewhat SouthEast. I also note that a preceeding frame absolutely fills the window with light, which I don’t see in any other of the vehicle passes. Putting all this together, can we conclude that this indeed part of a U-turn that took GZ from Westbound RVC back to Eastbound, with him needing to go through the parking spaces to accomodate the turning radius of the truck?
c) Conversely, could this possibly be consistent with GZ’s claim that he parked in front of the clubhouse? In the “re-enactment” he has Randy Smith park right in front of the Game Room window, and we can certainly say his truck was never parked there, as it would have been visible in both cameras. But what if he had parked toward the West end of the parking area (well to the left of the window from the camera view). Could he then have pulled straight back, and turned left through the parking area as he pulled forward to head toward TTL? It would be nice if we could demonstrate that this is NOT consistent with the video. To that end, I’m wondering about what light can be seen in the doorway of the kitchen cam, or in the little sliver of window visible to the left of the doorway at the top of the frame.
This is correct Whonoze. There is an angle.
I’ve shown 1-2 weeks ago some results of the 3D model reconstruction of this frame + the previous one using the Kitchen & Game Room videos. My conclusion was that GZ was driving around something on RVC.
I’ve also reconstructed an event that follows closely that is a darker vehicle that seems to be backing up from across the street.
I then proposed that GZ was avoiding that darker vehicle. I think it was Willi who told me that GZ actually stated in interview that a drove around a vehicle.
Here’s a merged pair of screenshots from the Kitchen Video comparing (what is believed to be) George’s truck with a second vehicle visible through the same window at about 40:30.
http://imgur.com/eCa0Giy
The second vehicle moves East to West in the video. Not sure what this says about George’s angle and position.
PS: Focus on the bottom pane. Notice how the texture of the ground surface seems to change from ‘smooth’ to ‘rough’? The line between smooth & rough seems different in each panel. Must be a trick of lighting, or my screenshots suck.
Whonoze, could you confirm that the game room video has some fisheye effect?
This is an effect I’d like to add to my model but it makes the simulations much longer to execute and therefore more difficult to reproduce.
Using your expertise, could you estimate the camera’s parameters (focal length [mm] and field of view angle).
The game room lens does seem to have some circular distortion. I don’t know of any way to quantify it. It would not be a function of the focal length itself, but of the particular optical construction of the specific lens. I don’t see the same sort of curved lines in the Kitchen video, which seems to have a narrower angle of view. Angle of view is a function of how the focal length covers the image sensing area, so it varies by the size of the sensor. For example, a 25mm lens on a 16mm movie camera has approximately the same angle of view as a 50mm lens on 35mm movie camera. If a 3D modeling program allows you to define camera angle in terms of focal length, it has to be assuming a certain size sensor, but I have no idea what that would be. Probably something in the 35mm frame vicinity. The sensors on any security camera I’ve ever seen are considerably smaller. So, actually, focal length is irrelevant, and the question is just what is the angle of view. There’s really no way to tell that exactly, unless you have accurate measurements of the area that appears in the image.
I’m not sure how you could build lens curvature into your model nor whether it would be worth the time. The distortion isn’t all that severe, and it shouldn’t really affect what can be seen through the windows.
I don’t suppose there’s any way you can tell just how much of an angle the truck is at in the frames at 20:45 – 20:47. The way the window completely fills with light in the Kitchen shot at 20:46 makes me think it’s not just the sort of gentle angle you’d take to avoid a car backing out, but something that gets closer to a direct shot into the window — thus my question about it being a U-turn.
Thanks for your comments Whonoze.
Blender has several camera models with variable physics included in.
The model that would allow simulating circular distortion makes the simulations hellishly long. This obviously prevents me from optimizing the view so I can better reproduce what I see on the videos.
###
The frame showing the big flare followed by the frame showing the right rear panel of a light pickup truck, is indeed from a vehicle that is nearly perfectly facing the Kitchen camera. You really have to realize that the view angle through the window of that camera is very narrow, letting not much margin of errors when it comes to the angle at which the vehicle is.
The position of the vehicle along the line can be found using the frame from Game Room video at the same time. It shows light reflection on the wall picture to the right of the smaller window. That light comes from the headlights, went n between the 2 central pillars in front of the clubhouse, through the smaller window, and finally bounced on the glassed wall picture. Again, we’re talking about a very narrow path.
So, I can draw two lines (the one from the Kitchen camera to the headlights & the one from the wall picture to the headlights) and find where the vehicle was.
Obviously the more precise the model, the more exact the reconstruction. Hence, my attempt to get the distortions of the Game Room camera.
Was the vehicle pulling out? It really does not look like it.
The 2 frames we’re talking about clearly suggest a circular motion at about 10MPH forward.
There is no indication that the vehicle was in the vicinity in the 10sec-20sec prior. Such vehicle would have modified significantly the lighting in the Lounge and the central corridor that even the Kitchen camera could have caught.
Was the vehicle making a U-turn. I thought about it too as it happens to be a vehicle that entered the RATL 20sec earlier. However, there is no evidence that this vehicle turned right on RVC.
To the contrary, the image sequences from that vehicle in the Game Room video suggest that it made a left on RVC. Indeed, vehicles entering cross the camera’s view range through the smaller window. The number of frames they are seen on is larger and light spot is brighter when the vehicle makes a right turn as they stay longer in the view range and briefly face the camera. If the vehicle makes a left turn, I see the opposite as the vehicle moves away from the cameras view range.
It looks to me like the pickup truck comes from the west.
There are at least 2 frames (possibly 4) showing a progressive increase of the lighting of RVC seen through the window in the Kitchen video.
I interpret that as a the approaching.
Looking at the car-in-the-window frame without regard to what proceeds the frame I made a sloppy composite over a year ago and posted it on Flickr
http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/jeandodge/8383793341/
This is a link generated from the mobile site as I am on my phone just now but it should work…
I don’t see the car wheel distortion as being the result of barrel distortion of a lens, even though the camera does have a simple lens and a wide field of view. Instead I think the wheel is foreshortened due to the angle it’s approaching at.
Sadly the FDLE could have done on site simulations and testing to establish what these light events signify but they did not.
While the activity on RVC is intriguing to try to discern its what occurred on TTL that seems to be more significant to the case IMO. Here’s what happened on RVC : something other than what GZ claimed. What that was precisely can remain speculative AFAIAC. But as long as we are going to give it the old college try I’m willing to investigate.
If we make the assumption that the east pool cam has/is the same focal length lens it’s worth noting the Lou he chairs at the TTL end of the pool are around 80 feet away and thus the same distance as the kitchen cam would be to a car on RVC and thus an approximate frame size could be interpolated given that the lounge chairs are around 6 feet long.
Also worth noting is the relative size of the octoganal security sign
http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/
I think this sign is visible and can be plotted to compare how much of the frame an object at this distance should occupy, just as I was suggesting the Lounge chairs could also be plotted. These are known (relatively speaking) dimensions and so is a Honda ridgeline
Willi, the last link is wrong. Could you post it again. I need to know what sign you’re talking about.
Indeed, furniture can be used as view point references. I used the pool table, the 2 round tables in the Game Room as well as the the stand lamp in the Lounge.
@willis
I don’t think the part of the truck visible through the window is the wheel well. I agree with tchoupi that it’s the rear window. Note the darkness at the top left of the window, and that the bottom area of the window is quite bright…
@tchoupi
I’m confused by what you’re saying about the u-turn. Is it now your conclusion that GZ did not make three passes of the clubhouse on RVC, making 2 u-turns? Do you think he just came East on RVC one time, slowing by the clubhouse, dipping into the parking area, and then turning directly onto TTL?
I went ahead and made a photo set here
hopefully this will work. Flickr is acting funny today…..
That one is cool Willi. For some reasons, I fully missed using it as a possible reference point. Thanks
thcoupi – same question
whonoze: If thats the window then that vehicle is VERY close to the window – as in driving in the flower bed, IMO or even closer, which seems impossible. I saw the window shape at first as well but look at the relative height of the headlights and taillights and watch it as it moves… not just stills. However a comparison of frame sizes and distances is needed, I agree.
Many things are possible. What GZ claims happened is not possible.
I see now what you meant by u-turn.
I thought you were referring to the angle the truck makes with RVC in front of the clubhouse being an indication of a u-turn of a vehicle initially going west on RVC.
Honestly, the multiple pass was nothing more than an hypothesis to explain the increase of traffic by the clubhouse right before the NEN call connected. Indeed, if a vehicle went back-and-forth in front of the clubhouse then we can explain that peak. There is no evidence that it happened although it is very likely since I don’t like coincidences.
Nevertheless, It might just be pure coincidence that multiple persons ended up by the clubhouse at the same time.
Maybe it was not a coincidence and multiple persons were just put in sync by their clock that just ticked 7pm on that Sunday evening.
Maybe it was fully concerted and multiple persons decided to be there at the same time for whatever reason.
In the end, I believe that we should not state that GZ made multiple passes in our document. We can present it as a way to explain the peak in traffic but not claim that we know he did so.
I agree that whatever is going on along RVC is impossible to say BARD. IMO it matters little anyway. What matters is the car on TTL that seems to troll the mail kiosk and then “double back” to face the kiosk. If that isn’t GZ then where was he at all? It’s the only car in the general vicinity and this event lines up with the timing of first responders. To me that means that it could be argued in a court of law by competent lawyers that this car has to be GZ’s beyond a reasonable doubt.
It’s the car-to-pedestrain chase that this speaks to and to me that was a criminal act.
Absent a reconstruction test of the clubhouse videos we can’t get too much farther in knowing where the cars were exactly and that speeds they moved at. But we can get a little farther, I do feel.
I seem to recall that ofc smith pulled in at one rate of speed, and then when he was near the clubhouse (and getting a update about shots fired) he then sped down TTL at a higher rate. I’m curious about the rate of speed GZ left the mail kiosk at and how far he may have gone around the corner before he came back. Maybe he was unsure that TM under the mail kiosk was really the “suspect” he’d been tipped off about, if we go with that theory for a bot. Could it be that he went all the way down by the rear gate before comign back to face the mail kiosk?
The lights are not visible for a full 23 seconds after they pass the “snowmama” and before they come back to flare out the camera. At the rate he was traveling down TTL where might he have made his u turn?
This was an animation I made long ago about GZ’s move down TTL and back to the position on his map facing the mail kiosk. It was made as a way to show people what I thought was on the east pool cam.
Whonoze, what I got is the left rear panel and the left rear tire of the vehicle. I don’t get the window.
I will post some images from the model and you’ll tell me what you think.
I will also check what it takes to see the window.
That glimpse through the window is like a Rorshach. It’s vague enough that one can see almost anything in it.
But looking again for the umpteenth time, I think I agree it’s the right rear panel, and part of the wheel well. Notice the two hot spots about a quarter of the way down from the top of the window. I think the one on the left side is the tail-light. I’m guessing the smaller round hot spot to it’s right is a highlight bounce of the lights by the door off the curve of the sheet-metal above the wheel well.
And, yes, it’s too big to be a window. My mistake.
We are groping towards consensus… or group think. Hopefully the former and not the latter.
Google earth puts the distance from where we assume the kitchen camera to be then out to the street at around 70- 80 feet.
I think the angle of horizontal view of the clubhouse cameras is around 70-80 degrees. I’m judging mainly by the pool cam that shows the pool and the lounge chairs and the right angle fence around the pool.
On a full frame SLR I think the lens equivalent would be somewhere around a 20mm to a 24mm lens.
http://www.howardedin.com/articles/fov.html
here’s a decent online field of view calculator.
I did a little Googling… standard security cameras use 1/3″ CCDs. Correspondingly, the lenses have quite short focal lengths. There are only so many common sizes: 2.5mm, 2.9mm, 3.6mm, 4mm, 4.3mm, 6mm and up. 3.6mm seems to be the most common, especially on the dome type cameras similar to the Gameroom Cam. There are a variety of field of view and angle of view charts and calculators available on the web. Google: “security camera lens angle of view chart” There are apparently different ways to measure angle of view, as I found contradictory information between various charts, and the specs listed for individual lenses.
tchoupi – don’t forget about the “telltale flash”
I think this is a light event that correlates with vehicles entering at the main gate. A rear window on the Long Oak Way townhomes flashes bright back to the east pool cam lens when a car is at or near the gate facing the south.
Also the vehicle in “position C” in Fig A 13c is of interest to me as a comparison to the possible ridgeline dips into the parking lot frame that has us all so interested. You list the timing as 34:16. To me that frame is showing a rear tire and a bit of the vehicle… very small in the frame. I think you see the same thing. That’s why I lean to the idea of seeing a tire and a read quarter panel in the “ridgeline dips into lot frame” and NOT a huge car window.
The “telltale flash” (I have no idea of what it means) is related to Raimondo going west on RVC. More generally, police patrol coming in are associated to funny light events. Have a close look to every single police car starting with T. Smith.
FIg 13c is also nice as it shows that the view range goes to the other side of the road. It really helps understanding what we see. I also helps me fine tuning the 3D model.
I called it a “tell tale flash” just to give it a name it happens more than once – that was just an example. It seems to align with ANY car arriving at the main gate facing south.
I agree that Fig 13c is a great example of what can be seen. Looks like a small passenger car wheel to me. I’d be curious what the animation would say the distance is.
Again I think we are dealing with a 20-24mm lens equivalent for a field of view in the 70-80 degree range horizontally. But that’s just a guess based on the idea that the pool cam has the same lens as the cams in the building.
The angle of view in the Gameroom camera seems wider than the Kitchen camera, as the former has significant barrel distortion and the later does not. This also makes sense since The Gameroom camera is trying to take in the whole room while looking across the short dimension of the room, while the kitchen camera is looking down the length of the building interior. Or so it seems, anyway.
I don’t see any serious barrel distortion in the game room camera. Granted there is little to go by. But the rectangle window has relatively straight lines and at the upper frame left there seems to be a doorway of sorts between one room and the next making a diagonal quite near camera. Adjust the gain to see this better. It’s parallel to the line of the upper window, This is a straight line close to camera. Were the barrel distortion significant I’d expect to see that line curve more.
Where do you see the distortion exhibited? If you are speaking about the seeming foreshortened vehicle we suspect is the Ridgeline dipping into the parking lot, that doesn’t take into account the straight windows and doorway that I see. Objects outside the window are so far from the lens that they shouldn’t exhibit distortion anyway. Cars/lights seem to pass in a straight line as well. I detect the staight line of the border between parking lot surface and the surface of the street as well. It’s best seen on the final pass of a vehicle we assume to be GZ turning off RVC onto TTL to troll the mail kiosk.
It’s somewhat ridiculous to have to speculate about all this however. The FDLE should have been all over this. I wonder what you make of the relative sizes of the window openings in the kitchen and game room cameras? Were the game room camera a wider lens wouldn’t the window be smaller overall in frame size? Without the actual distances I realize it’s difficult to judge.
Again I contend that these cameras are all the same and have a lens with a horizontal field of view aprox-70-80 degress and thus an equivalent to 20-24mm for a full frame 35mm SLR camera.
It’s the Kitchen camera that catches the Ridgeline through the window. All the lines in that image appear orthogonal to me. The barrel distortion I see is in the Gameroom camera. I’ve marked the curves here with green lines (Right click and “View Image” to see the whole thing).
Also, the window appears larger in the frame from the Kitchen cam (right below) than it does in the Gameroom cam (left below), despite the fact that the Kitchen cam is farther away.
Thus, I don’t see how the two lanses can be the same, and I conclude the Gameroom lens is noticably shorter/wider.
Okay on further reflection I think you are right. The camera is in a corner and yet sees the walls leading to it. I think this would be the next wider sized lens on the chart which has a 104 or a 109 degree angle of view horizontally.
I wasn’t looking at a full frame version of the gameroom cam – i was looking at a cropped version and did not see the curvature of the ceiling beam or whatever that is – possibly a wide open “doorway” from one room to the next. .
It’s frustrating trying to solve photographic questions without being able to examine the scene or shoot tests in the actual location. Any questions regarding cameras in my past experience as a film maker would usually be the occasion for shooting a test with as many of the actual elements locations and film stock, etc as one could manage.
I’m looking at the 3.6mm lens on this chart
It seems the next widest angle lens for a 1/3″ sensor on the chart has a horizontal field of view greater than 90 degrees – 104 to be exact. The 3.6mm lens has a 74 degree field of view. I think the pool cam has a 70-80 degree field of view and I SUSPECT the others are the same. That’s why I think the cams inside the clubhouse are of a similar field of view. Were they wider than 90 degrees I’d expect to see more obvious distortion.
Willi, So I had a look to the signs in front of the clubhouse using the reenactment video, David K’s video and the realtor tour (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVGeFAvzqyA).
My conclusion is that they are placed in front of the 2 smaller pillars and therefore are not visible to the cameras. I moved on adding those signs to the 3D model to confirm that they are hidden.
###
Willi & Whonoze, Thanks for your help concerning the cameras. I’m no specialist although I have enough background to understand what is is all about.
I could improve the model. I’m not entirely satisfied with my positioning of the Game Room camera. However, it is good enough to my opinion.
###
I renew my proposal to hand you over the model I got so you guys can play around. You can just place the vehicle on the model and see what you get in various cameras. I don’t know how to convince you that it is simple. The main difficulty at this point would be to upload/download the model as the file is now huge.
The model also includes a Trayvon Martin and a few vehicle models (a yellow Ferrari, .a black mercedes and the silver truck).
The model is not yet set for the East Pool camera. I placed the camera on the wall but TTL is not complete.
I don’t know much about Blender but i’m curious. As for sending large files, there are options. My problem with the concept is that it seems to me that the clubhouse videos speak for themselves once the timing issues are worked out.
I’ll try to acquire the software. Thanks again for all the work and willingness to share, I see that Blender users have a community of thier own and sometimes have crowd-sourced projects where people pitch in. Do you see any value in reaching out to the regular Blender users for anything? You might get some help w TTL that way. One never knows.
I think it’s the front end of the vehicle passing the window. I think that because the rear wheel doesn’t have the “bumper wrap”, which seems to appear in the picture.
Here are two views of the Ridgeline from the 3D image on the Edmunds page MOB referenced above.
I think the one on the top is closer to what we see through the window, though the camera angle from the Kitchen cam is a good bit higher than the view here.
That’s quite a steep angle to enter a small parking lot from the street, and not have to stop or back up. Are you certain about this opinion? Mine differs,
Actually I think it’s probably somewhere between the two views. And I think it’s not so much an issue of the truck’s angle to the street, but the camera’s angle to the street. In the corresponding frame where we see the rear of the truck in the Kitchen cam, the front is not yet visible in the Gameroom cam. Rather the plants in front of the window are brightly lit by the trucks headlamps. So my thought is the truck has only a slight angle in to the parking area, but the camera angle to that position is quite sharp.
Maybe tchoupi can figure it out with his 3D model…
Willi don’t forget that the camera is positioned with an angle. So, you have to combine the angles of the car and of the camera. Overall, you end up with something near what the bottom image shows.
I plotted the angle on a map and I think we’re reaching a consensus here. What is a 3/4 front view to camera is merely a natural continuing dip into the parking lot – possibly to avoid a car backing out from their driveway.
@ willis
While I agree the events on TTL are ‘what really matters’, I hold out hope that all our efforts (well, manily tchoupi’s…) might someday get a public airing of some sort. In that event, the tighter the accuracy of the whole presentation, the more credibility the presentation will have. Thus, it’s not that the events on RTL demonstrate anything near as significant about GZ’s actions as the TTL events, but that our ability to parse them demonstrates the thoroughness and validity of the overall analysis…
And to the extent that we can be even more firm in the assertion that ‘GZ did NOT park at the Clubhouse’ the better.
I may have a little difference of view with Willi concerning how much what happened on RVC matters.
There clearly is a spike of traffic by the clubhouse at the time GZ pulled his cellphone out to call SPD’s NEN. This has some significance to me as it indicates that GZ & TM were not alone when it all started. Even if we consider that one of the drivers went back and forth by the clubhouse, there still must be someone witnessing what that REAL suspicious guy was doing in the neighborhood.
Moreover, that traffic spike period is interestingly rich of unique events:
1) It almost begins with a light colored pick up truck that is consistent with GZ’s.
2) That pickup truck briefly makes an angle toward the clubhouse.
3) At least one dark colored vehicle going east on RVC stopped for a noticeable time at the junction with TTL,
4) One vehicle strolled on TTL and stopped by the mailboxes for a noticeable while,
5) The traffic clears up as soon as the NEN call starts.
Finally, none this is consistent with GZ parking by the clubhouse where he said he parked as he called NEN.
I agree with Willi in that showing that GZ stopped by the mailboxes and was already on TTL before his call connected is the main conclusion of that work.
tchoupi ~ please, can you tell me –
1) The time when the pickup truck passes the clubhouse
2) The time the dark-coloured vehicle reached/stopped at intersection of RVC and TTL
3) The time the vehicle reached, and how long it stayed near, the mailboxes
4) Are there light events to show a vehicle drive past the mailboxes and, further up TTL, turn around and park just up from and opposite of the mailboxes?
I’ve tried, truly I have, to watch the original surveillance tapes, the video created by whonoze, and all the work you and willisnewton (and amsterdam1234)have done – and the only response from my rather un-technical brain is “huh?”
Merci beaucoup
Nemerinys,
You really have to go through that document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Sy6soSh3-wG7v9j20_3189BJh8ZqYDVAX73C95QkFFs/edit?usp=sharing.
In appendix A, you’ll find a description of all the light events a vehicles can create.
There is also a table of all the events. I just added a table with the comments on noticeable events.
Perhaps the animation in the works will help make the videos more clear.
What’s clear at present to a small but discerning consensus is that a lot of activity happened on RVC shortly before the NEN call was placed, and that none of that activity seems to correspond with GZs narrative.
The activity on TTL is a lot more definitively attributable to Zimmerman. It doesn’t match his story but it does match the testimony of rachel Jeantel and the Map GZ marked showing a car parked near the mail kiosk ( a mark he quickly amended in favor if an impossible tale). And most importantly the evidence that he trolled the mail kiosk, drove down TTL while connecting to NEN and then “doubled back” to face the mail kiosk matches the timing of the events described in the NEN call. Both TM and GZ were someplace when GZ had the exchange “he’s by the clubhouse right now? “/ “yeah now he’s walking towards me. “.
The puzzle pieces fit some ways but not others.
IMO GZs lies are predicated on his knowledge that a car to pedestrian chase could not be admitted, and that this shaped the narrative he fashioned piecemeal as his statements were made.
We have a good consensus. My concern is what can be shown beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury, or the general public.
While I feel the clubhouse videos show no car parked in the lot on RVC, the mere fact that the timing of the NEN call when synced to the arrival of first responders shows that EVEN IF GZ had stopped in the lot it has no significance and is merely part of a false narrative.
The car that trolls the mail kiosk IMO is GZs beyond any doubt and to a moral certainty. And that car doubled back – beyond a reasonable doubt – and then that car chased the teen off the roadway in an aggressive act- in my opinion and others can and should be convinced of this as well if presented the evidence carefully.
I agree that the car that trolls the mail kiosk is GZ beyond a reasonable doubt.
I don’t think that we can nail the double back beyond a reasonable doubt.
It is again a situation where we have to present those two car events as separated and explain about the possibility that they actually correspond to just GZ.
If they don’t then another vehicle passed by GZ & TM while TM was walking toward GZ’s truck and supposedly circle it.
Folks,
Some more updates to the report. Again, comments are appreciated.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Sy6soSh3-wG7v9j20_3189BJh8ZqYDVAX73C95QkFFs/edit?usp=sharing.
Your use of tape times, instead of times of day, is confusing to those not familiar with the processes. Times of day are the only “markers” most people have of the underlying events.
Otherwise great work, I know its daunting and difficult. Kudos for keeping it up.
I start working on timing the videos. For that I was planning on using W18’s 911 call. I have an issue though: I cannot find any statement she made corresponding to Ayala’s arrival. Any help is welcome.
—
I have Smith pretty clearly:
7:13:27 – SPD LOG DIS [Smith’s response to GZ’s NEN]
7:13:27 – SPD LOG ENR [Smith’s response to GZ’s NEN]
7:17:11 – SPD LOG EVM [Smith’s response to GZ’s NEN]
7:17:11 – SPD LOG EVM [Smith’s response to GZ’s NEN]
7:17:11 – SPD LOG ARV [Smith’s response to GZ’s NEN]
7:17:36 – SPD LOG PEU [Smith’s response to GZ’s NEN]
7:17:36 – SPD LOG DIS [Smith’s response to Wit #3’s 911]
7:17:37 – SPD LOG ENR [Smith’s response to Wit #3’s 911]
7:17:40 – SPD LOG ARV [Smith’s response to Wit #3’s 911]
7:17:41 – W03 tells dispatcher “I see police now […] but like it’s behind the house […] It’s not the front entrance”
7:18:00 – W19 calls 911. She lives at 2821 RVC where T. Smith is rerouted to.
7:18:58 – SPD LOG EMS
7:19:28 – W18 tells dispatcher “Oh, my God! I think there is another gentleman with a flashlight”.
7:19:34 – W18 tells dispatcher “Oh, my God! He shot, he shot the person. He just said he shot the person”
7:19:43 – SPD LOG REM “1 AT GUN POINT”
7:19:44 – W18 tells dispatcher “A guy is raising his hands up.”.
—
I have Raimondo
7:20:46 – SPD LOG DIS. [Raimondo’s response to W03 911]
7:20:48 – SPD LOG ENR. [Raimondo’s response to W03 911]
7:20:48 – SPD LOG ARV. [Raimondo’s response to W03 911]
7:21:57 – W18 tells dispatcher “Here comes another police officer.”
7:23:22 – W18 tells dispatcher “Oh God! They are looking at the person that’s dead.”.
7:23:52 – SPD LOG “CHEST WOUND / UNRESP MALE / STARTING CPR PER S02023” [it should be S0202 for Raimondo)
—
I don’t have anything from W18 about Ayala’s arrival. All I got are those logs that are hard to understand.
7:11:17 – SPD LOG DIS [Ayala’s response to GZ’s NEN]
7:12:13 – SPD LOG ENR [Ayala’s response to GZ’s NEN]
7:19:52 – SPD LOG PEU [Ayala’s response to GZ’s NEN]
7:19:52 – SPD LOG DIS [Ayala’s response to W03 911]
7:19:53 – SPD LOG ENR [Ayala’s response to W03 911]
Whonoze, I wanted to check again. Do you have the originals of the CCTV videos?
I expect them to slowly be removed from the internet.
Yes. I downloaded the files that DiwataMan had posted on YouTube.
That’s something you may teach me ho to do.
Could you post them on YT yourself? I’d like to add links to the report.
The YT downloader I use is called BYTubeD. It’s a Firefox extension. There are lots of them, but that one seems the most reliable. I don’t see the point of reposting them to YT as long as they’re still up there elsewhere. I can send you the files if you’d like. It’s much easier to review them offline than online.
I’ll download them. Thanks
FWIW, I just briefly checked the vids from the security cams pointed at the front doors, and the in the Lounge. Both do have visible ‘light events’. I don’t know if they’re significant, or how to interpret them. (I can’t tell where the Lounge camera is mounted in terms of the floorplan of the clubhouse…) But I doubt that cars just passing down the street would make notable lighting changes in either image. Thus, perhaps they can be correlated to the Kitchen and Gameroom cams, to help establish, e.g., which vehicles are turning West on RVC after entering the complex from the North, or perhaps even pulling out of a garage (??).
They are interesting to confirm events already known from the other 4 videos.
The lounge is also interesting is it does not show the lighting variation you would expect from a car parking by the west aisle of the clubhouse.
However, those videos give no glance at the streets outside.
More help needed on my end.
1) What is the number of the discovery released on Sept 19th, 2012? This is the one with the logs of all the 911 calls which allows us to time every event.
2) I need a writer at least for a good introduction to the document.
My English is too limited to write something that explains clearly how we can reconstruct the traffic and identify some vehicles in spite of not having a single picture that would make someone say “Hey! this is Georgie.”.
Anyone who sepnd the time logging every single vehicles can make it without burning his brain. He may burn his eyes though.
The same way, anyone 12yo and older, spending the time to look at planet earth, the distribution of minerals, plants and animals, would conclude that the continents moved. And yet there is no picture of it. This is not intellectually hard. It’s just time consuming.
7th Supplemental
Click to access GZ-Discovery-Redacted-0919.pdf
or
Click to access GZ-States-7th-Supp-Discovery_Redacted.pdf
Hi tchoupi,
The September 18, 2012 discovery is the state’s 8th supplemental:
http://www.seminoleclerk.org/CriminalDocket/case_detail.jsp?CaseNo=592012CF001083A
It’s interesting to note some of the more recent actions taken in the case. I’m not a lawyer, so I don’t know what it all means.
word salad
Oops, I meant September 19th, of course.
In case you need a link for the State’s September 19, 2012 discovery dump, here is one (they mistakenly identified it as the 7th supplemental discovery, but it’s actually the 8th):
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/documents-2/court-documents/7th-supplemental-discovery-9192012/
Thanks wordsalad, that’s what I was looking for.
I put the blender model in dropbox. It should be available to anyone with that link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/k61kom07985r3zf/RATL_CCTV_v01.blend
Thanks. – reviewing
Sorry about posting twice, I wasn’t sure where to post this.
i would like to make a correction to the NEN call.
The car door shuts after he says “Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.”
So instead of :
SN: He’s running? Which way is he running?
[Truck door opens. Warning chimes. Door shuts.]
7:11:45
[Zimmerman’s breathing becomes audible, consistent with increased physical exertion]
GZ: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.
It should be:
SN: He’s running? Which way is he running?
[Truck door opens. Warning chimes. ]
7:11:45
[Zimmerman’s breathing becomes audible, consistent with increased physical exertion]
GZ: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.
[Door shuts.]
He didn’t start running until after closing the door and telling the dispatcher trayvon went towards the entrance.
He did not need to continue to run after trayvon to see where he went because he already saw which way he went and in my opinion he did not lose sight of trayvon until he said “He ran” My guess is trayvon ran and hid after seeing zimmerman running behind him.
Many things are possible. What GZ claims happened is not possible.
While we all have our pet theories of “they went thataway” this one is one that seems to split into two camps usually, and it concerns what GZ was seeing and doing as the teen ran from his car, and in the seconds after he opened the door.
One camp figures that GZ was able to see TM turn south, and the other camp assumes he did not. His words seem to say the former, and his actions – presumably his travel to RVC – another. Of course the difficulty is, he’s a proven liar and no one can believe a word he says.
My opinion is just that – my opinion but I hope you will consider the following factors:
IF GZ had knowledge of TM entering from the shortcut, THEN any move away from the clubhouse would seem to be (in his depraved mind) that of someone heading to the back entrance to exit the gated community there. So the statement that the teen was running for the back entrance need not be predicated on his seeing the teen turn south. Any move in the general easterly direction is not a move back to the shortcut by Taafe’s house, so….
GZ had various claims of whether he could see to the T or not. I’ll not bother to detail them here, but the “doubling back” story (obviously false) includes him being able to see the T. Other versions, he can’t see the T. You might think that makes only two options but the third is that he wasn’t LOOKING there at the right moment. Let me explain why I think this last option is possible and likely, even.
His car may or may not have been parked where he claims it was, and may or may not have been FACING the way he (and the bathrobed facetime” ipad witness) claims. If it were facing east, the headlights may or may not have helped illuminate the area. Information regarding the door chimes comes into play here, and we enter into the “did he have the keys in the ignition or not” arguments. Again I have to say, many things are possible but what really matters is that what GZ claims is NOT possible, so I’m not sure solving this aspect matters much.
I think there is a good case to show that GZ may have reversed his car during the car-to-pedestrian chase, or traveled without his headlights on. Either way would be quite unnerving to the teen who had passed his vehicle on foot and was yet to reach the start of the cut thru sidewalk. The clubhouse videos would seem to show a U turn if he had made it with his headlights on of off, even but had he reversed his car it would have remained in the blind spot.
IMO GZ did not start moving afoot immediately after opening his door. Listen to the call, and you will see that there is a ten second or so pause before he starts huffing and puffing. I think he took a moment to gather his gun and flashlight. IMO it was at this moment that TM may have turned south or else been obscured by trees and darkness. Keep in mind if he were seeing the teen in his mirrors he’d easily lose sight as well.
The “effing punks/c**ns/goons” exclamation may have been in response to losing sight of the teen, or realizing that there were two ways the youth could have fled and that GZ didn’t know which one to choose. I place him only part way on the cut thru sidewalk when he says this, and just regaining his focus on the path ahead, having spent the preceding ten or so seconds dealing with gun, flashlight, keys, door, etc. I could see it as an outburst that says in effect, “damn it, I missed which way he went.”
How far TM was able to travel BEFORE running can be guessed at if we make the assumption that he traveled at a walking pace towards GZ’s car and at a similar pace as he walked east away from the car. We “know” that TM was “near the clubhouse right now” and “now he’s walking towards me” or at least can speculate a few models based on this info, and use that to place potential positions of GZ’s car. Of course I think GZ marked exactly where his car was on the map he drew on for Singleton, but ignore that for a while and do some modeling with Google maps and make assumptions about walking speeds – try 4 or 5 or 6 feet per second and see what you can come up with. The key to these models is not ONLY the time it takes to pass a vehicle on TTL facing the mail kiosk, but also the time left AFTER where we can assume TM was still walking and still able to be sighted by GZ somehow. The farther east you place GZ’s car, the faster TM had to be walking in order to pass the car in the 30-35 seconds or so that most people calculate as the time spent traveling from “near the clubhouse” or at the mail kiosk, to a spot where GZ’s reaction changes to “these axxholes alwayas get away.” This is where what I call “the long tail” theory comes into play. Were GZ all the way down by the cut thru already, TM would have walked so fast to get there that in the 30 additional seconds, he’s be out of sight long before GZ says “sh*t, he’s running.” Don’t take my word for it, do the maps and the math yourself.
By now you can see we are way off in the weeds on this discussion, so I’ll close for now.
FWIW my conclusion differs from yours. I think GZ saw the teen run but did not see which way he went once he was near the T. I also don’t think TM had any reason to sue the T. I think he cut the corner of the building and turned south using the grass path that is there on the corner. But I also don’t see the relevance. Many things are possible.
What I see is relevant is that the teen was running away from a moving vehicle, which is a criminal act on the part of GZ and should have disqualified him from any claim of acting in self defense.
Thanks for the feedback. I am working on a model, so you’re perspective helps.
You’re welcome. I make no claim that my “they went thataway” is any more valid than another.
Many things are possible. What GZ claims happened is not possible. Therefore, something else happened and he saw fit to lie about it.
Another thing that would’ve shown Zimm’s lie about TM circling the truck would’ve been to examine the background noises in the NEN tape.
There are VERY CLEAR sounds where you can hear GZ put the car in and out of gear. Based on those sounds alone, we can know exactly when GZ moved his car.
Now does the State NOT EVEN BOTHER to use the background sounds on the NEN tape to tighten up the timeline?
i have no specific knowledge of why the state failed so badly at presenting the case for a conviction. But they did, and the verdict is the proof.. My opinion is that it stemmed from a failure to base a case on a rigorous investigation, so in some regards the failure is that of the investigators involved.
You can’t base a case on unknowns, and there were plenty of reason to suspect that the lawyers for the prosecution never had a firm grasp of what could be shown to have happened and what could be shown NOT to have happened.
Personally I feel they tried to make it case about who cried and not about who lied. I’ve never had a firm opinion as to who was heard yelling on the 911 call – one or both persons and so I’ve always approached the case from the other end – what happened FIRST and where did it lead?
So what do we know? First, GZ got a call around 6:48pm. Then, a lot of lights went past the front of the clubhouse but no one parked there. Then, his car trolled the mail kiosk, and a car that is either his or else HE WAS NEVER IN THE AREA AT ALL returned to face the mail kiosk after “doubling back” down at the cut thru vicinity. Then, the following exchange occurred while GZ was on the line with NEN call taker: “he’s near the clubhouse right now?” “Yeah, and now he’s coming towards me.”
All of this can be proven BARD I feel, and should have been were the prosecution better prepared/ more competent/ you choose why. If you haven’t taken a close look at the map GZ marked, do it now. He knew exactly where he parked – he just knew also to lie about it and he did a poor job of it. He marked the spot that best fits the timing of the NEN call recording and that spot that seems to match what’s on the clubhouse video as well. This position also matches Rachel Jeantel’s story. It just doens’t match GZ’s because his story is contardictiry, inconsistent and a clear fabrication.
Then it seems most likely that a car-to-pedestrain chase ensued, causing the teen to run off the roadway. Tragically, after this happened Trayvon’s friend called him right back and he seems to have stopped or slowed down to answer. By my estimate he stopped in John Good’s back yard, and GZ missed him as he hurried past due to the darkness and that fact that he was looking down the sidewalks and not in the grass. . But we’ll never know.
Whatever happened after that, the teen had every right to assume he was being criminally stalked and he had a right to defend himself from this person by any means necessary.
tchoupi-
I played around w your Blender file – amazing work. I’m not skilled enough yet to say I am doing anything right, but the vehicle that seems to dip into the parking lot for one frame is the puzzle I’m trying to recreate here:
Is this anything similar to what you think is going on?
It’s good that someone get a look to it.
It looks to me that you moved camera2 (Game Room) to reproduce an image originally taken by camera1 (Kitchen). It looks like you moved the camera or its orientation.
Overall, I think that you got the main idea which is to back up our claims with computer generated images of the scene. So, any reconstruction you can make is of interest. I’d be happy to help you on any topic that gets you interest.
I may be a bit demanding but I started reworking entirely the clubhouse model hoping to get the model closer to the real one. I’ll post it when I’m done.
BTW, if you ever stumbled upon a description of the clubhouse with all the dimensions, don’t hesitate sending it to me.
BTW bis, it doesn’t take much skills to play around with the model. You can just start as you did placing the cars around.
Some tips for you to start:
1) Select you camera in the object list on the top right end of the window.
2) Click the “View” menu in the menu bar below the bottom view (I organized 3 split views)
3) Click on “Cameras”
4) Click on “set active object as camera) you should get the camera view
5) Go to the right tools box and click on the little camera button. You should see “Render”
6) If the little triangle next to “render” is not pointing down, click on it. You should see a “render” button.
7) Click on the “Render” button to generate the camera view.
thanks!
there was a step in there I really couldn’t figure out – how to get the kitchen camera “Active” Thats why i tried to move the other camera instead. I don;t know the program at all. Just making crude observations thus far.
So using that it would appear the car that dipped into the parking lot was a lot closer to the window than my previous guesstimate.
Look on my flickr page in a few….
I see you’re getting up to speed with Blender Willi. That’s great!!!
tchoupi,
No joy yet on an actual building blueprint, but one could conceivably extrapolate the dimensions using the information in the replat blueprints:
Click to access CommunityFiles%5C361%20Plat.pdf
Yeah, I know: only marginally better than poking oneself in the eye with a sharp stick. };-)
I wonder whether the actual building blueprints are on file with the county because of building code requirements?
wordsalad
This is pretty nice actually. Thanks a lot.
Well, I’m getting a bit closer (but still not quite there):
Inputting “Tousa Homes,” and a date of 3/22/2006 (March 22, 2006), I see documents related to the RATL, but no blueprints just yet:
http://officialrecords.seminoleclerk.org/NV_Records/or_sch_1.asp
I’m probably not holding my mouth right. };-)
I’m still in shock that this liar got away with his lies, and at the shockingly poor judgement the jurors exhibited.
I’m with ya there, willis.
As I began to see that things weren’t going well, I started to prepare myself for the reality that justice isn’t always done, but it didn’t seem to help much.
Florida state legislators have voted down the proposal for a special session to reconsider the Stand Your Ground law.
from the article linked below:
“Final score, as announced Tuesday afternoon by the Florida Secretary of Office, which conducted the poll of lawmakers: 108 against a special session to 47 for a special session. Democrats needed 96 votes for it. ”
http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/the-buzz-florida-politics/one-out-of-five-dems-bail-on-party-vote-against-syg-special-session-that/2137426
The exact chronology is unknown to me, but the sit in protest at the Florida capital ended last week as the announcement of this vote was finalized. The Dream Defenders held a long and fairly well publicized protest occupation and are to be commended for their actions, IMO. The managed at least to get every legislator on record either defending or questioning the SYG law. That’s more than what came before. Sadly, they did NOT get a special session called to debate the law, and the best they can boast is that there is a promise for a subcommittee to hold hearings on the matter in the fall session. We shall she what comes of that. I hope they are able to raise awareness there – I’d expect that the Martin family will be there to give testimony, but one never knows.
Absent any credible action by the DoJ, or a civil suit by the Martin family against Zimmerman this would seem to be the next (and possibly last) time the issue of the death of Trayvon Martin will be in the media spotlight. If this group hopes to accomplish anything of national consequence, I’d suggest that this subcommittee hearing be a deadline to keep in mind, and a possible platform for presentation.
Good Morning All,
I made a few phone inquiries, and apparently the blueprints for the clubhouse can be obtained via the City of Sanford via email or snail mail:
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.aspx?recordid=220&page=433
FYI, I believe the clubhouse at 1111 Retreat View Circle, Sanford, FL 32771 was built in 2006.
However, do keep in mind this important tidbit at the bottom of the webpage:
“Under Florida law, e-mail addresses are public records. If you do not want your e-mail address released in response to a public records request, do not send electronic mail to this entity. Instead, contact this office by phone or in writing.”
};-)
This is great, Wordsalad!!
I’m about to release the updated model so I can go back to redacting that report.
The updated model is in dropbox: https://www.dropbox.com/s/j4feoqvdpbb32kq/RATL_CCTV_v02.blend.
That one is better organized, definitely closer to reality and yet smaller in size. I also named the objects to make it easier to work with it. For example model of TM is name TrayvonMartin.
Thanks. I’m looking forward to examining this. On first look I can see we agree about the “famous frame” of the car that seems to be dipping into the parking lot.
I’m going to be curious to see about the car that (probably) “doubles back” to face the mail kiosk as well. How much time did it take him to turn around and did he go down to look at the back entrance or not? Etc.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Sy6soSh3-wG7v9j20_3189BJh8ZqYDVAX73C95QkFFs/edit?usp=sharing
I’ve added some images at the end of the document to show how the model can help explaining images from the cctv.
This is far from finalized as I don’t have a clear idea on how I’ll do it. It also takes time.
At this point, I just show how I can determine whether a vehicle is of a darker or lighter color. I also, show how I know that e vehicle stopped at and passed the stop line at the RVC/TTL junction. I also show what it looks like to have a vehicle coming in thru the gate.
Willi,
I made some improvement to the model. I focused on making the rendering more efficient for both process time and noise. I also optimized the Game Room camera for position & orientation. I also finally got the lens distortion right. I’ll put the updated model in dropbox soon.
tchoupi:
It’s seems to me that a formal document created for public presentation of your work (and I consider it mainly yours, somewhat supplemented by the rest of us) ought to be titled and framed around it’s conclusions and their significance. I mean, how many people are going to be drawn in by “Reconstruction Of The Car Traffic By The Clubhouse Of The Retreat At Twin Lakes Around The Time Of The Killing Of Trayvon Martin.” The point of the report is that we can identify the movements of GZ’s truck based on the light events, and this documentation reveals numerous falsehoods GZ made in his statements to the authorities, yes?
So perhaps a better title would be something like: “Truth Comes From Light: Tracking the Movements of George Zimmerman’s Vehicle Around the Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Prior to the Shooting of Trayvon Martin, and the Falsehoods in Zimmerman’s Account They Reveal.” (The before the colon part is a play on the English idiom ‘the truth comes to light.’)
I will be happy to write or rewrite any prose sections that need to be completed.
I also note that the text of the report so far does not include any references to clock-time, only timings internal to the videos themselves. However, it’s important to show not just where the vehicles were, but when, even if we cannot identify the time with exact precision. I think we have a good hypothesis for fixing the clock-time in sync with the 911 calls, and even allowing for a maximum possibility of error, we can place the events within a time window that clearly belies GZ’s story.
Whonoze,
I’m not religious but I’ll say it anyhow: Amen!!!
Your help is welcome.
The document is definitely not complete yet. The data concerning the timing is still to be assembled. I’m planning to do it next once I’m fully done with the model.
Overall, I wanted the document to be purely technical. Hence the title. I believe that the main claims are:
1) We can link the lights with vehicles,
2) We can identify some of them,
3) GZ’s is one of them
4) At the time GZ picked up his phone to call SPD’s NEN there was quite a bit of traffic by the clubhouse.
5) During that time no vehicle is seen parking where GZ claims he parked.
6) The only vehicle that can be GZ’s dragged by the mailboxes kiosk briefly prior to the connect with dispatch.
I don’t want to claim that we know what route GZ took besides entering TTL from the north. The back and forth should not be presented differently than a hypothesis among others.
I want the model to be the element of reconstruction. Every signal we see on the cctv and that can be reproduced with the model should be in to show that it is not the product of our fertile imagination: There is physics behind. Any claim we cannot support using the model should not be made.
BTW, welcome back.
I want a link to the finished project so I can post to my evidence pile and link to facebook and twitter. Thanks
Yes, thank you for seconding my opinion. While internal times serve the investigators, real clock times are what the lay persons need to facilitate their own understandings of the events in question. Even if begin – end clock times are given like; 9:06:11 – 9:06:14 , make the narrative a wee bit more complex than desirable, it’s still more understandable to the lay reader.
Hey all,
Zimmerman is in the press again. Reportedly, he visited Kel-Tec’s factory in Cocoa, FL last Thursday, August 22nd:
http://news.yahoo.com/lawyer-george-zimmerman-should-not-be-visiting-gun-factories-174609071.html
There’s at least a couple things odd about this story. One is the choice of words from O’Mara’s spokesman.
The other is the picture (a screenshot from TMZ). Some observers have remarked that it looks potentially shopped. What say you photo gurus?
If I had to guess, I’d say the company paid him “quietly” to make the visit and look at that shotgun. There’s little evidence that gz is a long gun man, he prefers hand guns. But the company needed a “hands clean” way to reap the benefits of such publicity and focus it on their newest, or fast moving product line. Money couldn’t buy them the kind of attention this visit is bringing them. While at the same time keeping their hands clean of any adverse publicity that might otherwise attach.
Hey, Lonnie. Yeah, it strikes me as possible that Kel-Tec would pay GZ for press exposure of their new ‘home-defense’ offering.
Still, I thought O’Mara mouth-piece Shawn Vincent’s choice of words on the subject were ‘interesting.’ Would not a spokesman for the defense want to defuse rather than inflame public passions about GZ’s killing of TM?
Then there’s the picture accompanying that piece, a screenshot from TMZ. Some net observers think it looks ‘hinky,’ (in particular, GZ’s arm) like maybe a photoshop job. I don’t know enough about such matters to say.
tchoupi:
Maybe you’ve already thought of this, but could the modeling of GZ’s truck passing the clubhouse be bolstered by comparing it’s position as it passes the window in the Kitchen cam with the lights of other vehicles going West-to-East on RATL as also caught by the Kitchen cam? Specifically at 0:27 and 2:55 into the video? These frames perhaps can establish the position on a car proceeding properly down the right lane of RATL, and by their difference from the GZ frames help establish that the truck was indeed cutting through the parking area. At 0:27 you can clearly see a headlamp at the very top of the window, with it’s reflection in the pavement beneath it. In comparison, at 2:55 I think we are seeing only the reflection of on the pavement, with the actual lamp cut off by the top of the window.
Also, it seems worth noting that of all the car passes caught by the Kitchen camera in the 45 minute recording, only the one we have identified as GZ makes a big flare in the window, which seems to support that this very bright frame captures the light from the truck cutting in at an angle toward the lens, not passing straight down the street…
I agree with you that we should compare various images from the cctv.
I think the other passes of the vehicles traveling west to east on RVC can and should be modeled and animated for comparison’s sake using Blender. Having said that, I’m not the one who is able to do that work… but it would be valuable to have and compare with the various cctv clips.
Things worth animating IMO include the “doubling back” of the car that seems to troll the mailboxes and possiby return to face the mail kiosk – the car that, if it isn’t GZ’s shows that he was never in the area at all – not really a likely story…. I’m curious how far the car may have continued around the corner before turning around.
Another sequence that is worth animating would be the arrival of ofc Tim Smith. From a cursory examination it seems to me that he drove up to the mail kiosk region at one speed and then down TTL at a higher rate of speed, most likely having gotten the “shots fired” re-route call about the time he arrived my the kiosk. Confirming this possibility should help bolster the sync point of the cctv with the NEN call recording.
BTW, tchoupi I agree with the general conclusions you are suggesting about the position of the vehicle that dips into the parking lot. I wonder if any speed and timing can be inferred from the frames surrounding the obvious one.
Shellie Zimmerman pleaded guilty today:
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-shellie-zimmerman-perjury-20130828,0,2280026.story
The Orlando Sentinel piece has a lot more detail:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-george-zimmerman-wife-shellie-plea-20130828,0,3608738.story
Apparently SZ was interviewed on GMA today. I haven’t found a link to video of the full interview yet, but here’s a YouTube News piece with some clips:
Among other things, she says that she was staying at her father’s place on February 26, 2012 because she and GZ had had an argument the night before.
If Shellie really was at her Father’s, then the ‘tip-off’ hypothesis is all but out, as she was the only one to call GZ prior to his leaving the house. He could have been tipped ion person, but I doubt it…
Possible scenario: GZ is upset because of his tiff with Shellie and her departure for her dad’s. She calls him around 6:45. They argue. Maybe GZ has already had a few bumps of booze. GZ hangs up angry. He has a couple more bumps, then goes out patrolling to blow off steam. He’s feeling a bit emasculated by wifey’s non-compliance, and he projects his resentment onto the “fucking coons”. What better way to show that b____, to show them all, that he is not just a man but THE man, than to catch one of the assholes red handed?
Gigantic assumptions there: one, that she would tell the truth about anything at all, especially her whereabouts if it relates to a connection with a murder. Second would be that GZ was at home that day as well at any time. We just don’t know.
Funny how her statement calls into question the “mentoring” an the supposed weekly grocery shopping at target as well.
As I see it, the Shellie 6;45 tipoff is still the obvious theory to investigate. It fits a lot of puzzle pieces that are missing or mysterious.
As I suspected every since the perjury charges and cousin- rape news was out, this marriage is not on solid ground.
Imagine for a moment if SZ WAS the tipoff person- each would locked together by Fate not to reveal the truth for quite some time. Now that GZ is seemingly in the clear – an federal charges are at least possible if not probable – the idea that a wife can’t be forces to testify against a husband enters the equation with a lot more weight than love or comparability might.
Also keep in mind her statement about being at her father’s house fits the bill of a non-denial denial. At present we have not heard her assert directly that she was not at her home around 6:45, etc. On camera she says merely that “I left.” The announcer/reporter/narrator says “she wasn’t there that night.” As we well know, it was still light out at 6:45.
Yeah, I can easily see a call from a semi-estranged spouse contributing to a bad mood (you know, on top of no money, no future, et cetera). A little Sunday afternoon tipple would only accentuate whatever mood was already present.
However, in view of the odd coincidence of GZ’s assistance to the occupants of a rolled SUV mere days after his acquittal, does it not revive the possibility that Mr. Wannabe had a police scanner, and routinely trawled law enforcement communications for “opportunities?”
It’s possible that he overheard some non-specific LE chatter about TM.
Well, ABC finally has a link for this morning’s edition of GMA (I hope I don’t send wordpress into a tizzy with such a long URL):
http://watchabc.go.com/good-morning-america/SH5587637/VDKA0_eghu0o3g/gma-829-hernandez-allegedly-suffered-psychiatric-symptoms-from-pcp-use
The segment on SZ starts at around 18:50.
Thanks. Looks like there are three (at least) versions of this interview aired by ABC – the GMA version, the Diane Sawyer (530 news) version and the NIghtline version. Ive seen the first two, and am looking for the last to be posted soon.
I’d caution anyone to keep in mind that she is an obvious and proven liar and to not take a single thing she is saying at face value. This could all be a con, including the idea that she isn’t getting along w GZ. Some have suggested this is a ruse to protect assets in case GZ is taken into a civil suit and stripped of his assets in a wrongful death suit. I’m not sure they are that clever, but it goes to illustrate how far the truth COULD be from what we hear on teevee.
I’ll say it again: many things are possible. What GZ claimed happened is not possible.
All are possibilities that I’m keeping in mind.
I found this tidbit interesting:
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/08/george-zimmermans-wife-says-he-has-beaten-down-her-self-esteem/
“[…]O’Connor, who is working on a book about the George Zimmerman trial, also hinted that there was evidence that was mishandled, saying that during the sensational trial, ‘there were so many untruths told.'”
“What the jury never heard could have led to a different verdict,” she said.[…]”
Then again, I suppose I need to keep in mind that O’Connor will be selling a book.
I have SOME hope that o’connor might produce a decent book. She gained access to Shellie and that’s no small feat. She had a solid television career in ever increasing larger markets and is a veteran of television news. If she does her research she’s got a good shot at it all – and she’s spending time on the ground in Sanford which is key. I wish her luck.
They are not that clever, but the corporate and political factions behind their defense and interested in their appearance are. Anyway, I agree she’s unreliable.
There’s also this YouTube version (I haven’t had the patience to compare it with the official GMA version):
I want to wish O’Connor luck as well, but the cynic in me wonders whether any serious books about the case (I’m not counting the Osterman and Zimmerman Senior “memoirs”) will appear before February 26, 2014.
http://zimmermanverdict.net/another-trayvon-attack-in-sanford-florida-3/
wordsalad:
Please do not post links w/o a brief explanation of what they are. E.g. the link above is Christi O’Conner’s blog, which, so far, contains only that single entry and no comments.
Sorry, whonoze.
Yeah, I thought that blog with only a single entry was curious. This bit at the end of the entry seemed a bit coy:
“[…]I’ve also discovered a lot more about the Zimmerman/Trayvon tragedy. But I can’t share it yet. I will when the time is right. So, stay tuned.[…]”
When might the time be right, one wonders? February 27, 2014?
Did you see that Doris Singleton made an appearance in the police report for the Fuller case (page 3)?
Small world, indeed.
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=5888
Small world, Sanford. The letter about the alleged police brutality against Samuel Fuller is from John Wright, the private investigator who was hired by Jane Surdyka’s lawyer to take her detailed written statement after Chris Serino showed little interest in her story. Wright also made a public statement of support for the Democratic candidate who ran for Norm Wolfinger’s old seat as Seminole County State’s attorney. (He was defeated by a Wolfinger crony…)
I know I shouldn’t let this bother me as much as it does, but at least some of the inaccuracies in this piece seem deliberate:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/08/the_aftermath_of_the_george_zimmerman_case_part_1_the_trial_the_evidence_and_the_verdict.html
I see that the URL for the AT piece “overran” the border, possibly because wordpress can break up a URL at the slashes but nowhere else(?). I hope I didn’t break the thread.
Here’s me attempting (with trepidation) an HTML link:
Inaccurate American Thinker Piece
I’m sorry if either of these last two comments of mine broke anything; feel free to delete them.
Try using ‘TINYURL.COM” for long links. It’s quick and easy to use.
Lonnie,
Thanks, I was looking at my wordpress account, and only just now noticed this suggestion from you (D’oh!).
I think I’ve succeeded in committing the HTML syntax to memory by leaving out the variables until I type the rest of it. Then the pattern becomes apparent, and ‘makes sense’ to me. 🙂
How to Create HyperText Markup Language Links
Jack Cashill is selling book on the case:
If I had a Son
Ever notice that his surname contains two words?
Hello whonoze and everyone, I followed a facebook link here asking for people to come together on this project. Thank you for putting together the information here. I have read many blog posts and comments discovering that there has been a lot of focus and attention to the audio and visual, and especially the clubhouse security cameras. Some of the discoveries from the cameras such as the “mail kiosk troll” was not information I had while investigating timeline evidence. Basically a lot of my focus has been on the crime scene, the statement interview evidence, etc. I challenge the one seemingly popular speculation of TM actually being observed running by GZ, and of course that along with ever being observed walking in the places and times GZ claims. I can go into detail, but just wanted to introduce myself first. You guys have done some amazing work, and the discussions are inspiring. It has left me to wonder if I can help at all. Only, I have an additional unique focus on the trial itself that may be interesting and noteworthy to some. I came by this focus because I noticed something taking place at the trial, that is legal, but would help everyone to understand it’s outcome against the evidence better. This goes beyond the Prosecution’s poor performance. Of course the court was defect, Judge, and Prosecution. The inspiration for my focus is that when I read about the trial there has been very little realistic analysis, or it has been given in piece meal fashion. Most people have unrealistic expectations for a court trial in the US anyway. Our thoughts are clouded by popular and unrealistic depictions of court trials in television and film. So hopefully I can share this as it comes together. Thanks again!
davidboes,
I await your theories with interest, particularly on the question of whether GZ ever saw TM run.
wordsalad
wordsalad, I apologize I realized after it was too late that I might have served the discussions here better if I posted my second entry right here. Thanks again!
No apology necessary. I myself have had more than my share of difficulties in following conversations on wordpress.
Well, let’s see if I can get my HTML code right this time. Jonathan Cohen at American Thinker has come out with Part Two of his series on the aftermath of the Zimmerman case:
Part Two of AT Propaganda Piece
I can’t decide what part of this segment disturbs me the most: trying to reinforce the “f*cking punks” meme, or the attempt to misappropriate the trial at the core of “To Kill a Mockingbird.”
It’s definitely propaganda, and I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised.
wordsalad, if I get a chance I’ll read the article, only judging from your comments I am not looking forward to it.
I sometimes hesitate in posting links to things like that because I hate to be a perpetual ‘Debbie Downer,’ but people who are interested in uncovering and disseminating the truth about the case have to realize what they’re up against.
wordsalad, thank you, my rationale has been similar to others here. willisnewton describes this best when he writes, “Many things are possible. What GZ claims happened is not possible.”
Specifically, about GZ observing TM running has been speculated due to his NEN remark “shit, he’s running.” Some claim that Rachel supported this ‘running,’ but I don’t think she did. Please correct me if I missed something of her statements, but what she described was that at some point TM may have picked up his pace. Also, that she suggested that he run, and that TM may have either picked up, or slowed down his pace in response to that suggestion. Rachel claimed that he verbally rejected her suggestion. More to the point, I don’t have TM actually running, or being observed running by those two pieces of circumstantial evidence.
Many have scoured the NEN call for indications of time, distance, location, movement, and state of mind. I just go back to when I first listened to the call, and noticed that GZ seemed obsessive. He’s focused on TM, his movements, his whereabouts, to the point that the NEN call became a distraction for him at times during the call. He’s loses control of his inner monologue, and blurts out thoughts, basically he talks to himself (out loud). These remarks he makes have a different quality and tone, and are out of context with the conversation with the dispatcher. This is also evident in GZ acting with accomplice speculators; thinking they are hearing him speaking to someone else (other than the dispatcher). The, ‘shit, he’s running’ comment has that quality and tone, and is out of context as I described. All these types of remarks I noted seem to be made in frustration when GZ is not observing TM, or has lost visual contact. All of them.
IIRC, willisnewton describes how GZ might have been losing visual contact well at some point in his comments, and also touches on that, and other similar aspects in his narrative above. Like willisnewton, I don’t think the ‘he’s running’ comment necessarily corresponds to GZ actually observing TM running, and instead I think it is an indication of GZ losing sight of TM, or not managing to make visual contact as expected. There are other NEN statements that GZ is not finding TM where he expects, but I’ll get more into that later.
OK, so these are my speculations with regard to the circumstantial evidence of TM running or not. I think TM is walking, and maybe picking up the pace to slight jog at times, to perhaps get out of the rain, or avoid being able to be seen by the person stalking him. Stalking is the correct and most precise word in English to describe GZ’s actions that evening. I’m sure, if you are like me, you are sick of hearing the ‘legal definition’ given in contrast to it’s more common, and appropriate use. Anyway, If one accepts the initial GZ, observation of TM location, or near there. Then I have GZ establishing a mode of watching (menacing), following (menacing), and then going ahead in his vehicle to wait at points where there will be multiple routes for TM to take. I have TM walking (as I described) and has noticed that he’s being watched and followed and yet continuing on his way in a normal manner. At or near the clubhouse, he is aware of GZ, and either couldn’t avoid walking near to GZ’s vehicle, or did so decidedly, possibly as a gesture of his belonging there, and probably to gain some understanding of the purpose of the driver’s behavior. Right after this encounter GZ loses sight of TM, and in my view he either never gains it back, or has another sighting, that leads him to take a course of action, and path of movement (unknown) to the dog path.
There is where my narrative moves in a different direction than others I’ve read. The running is important to willisnewton’s narrative above, as he feels that establishes a crime in progress, and should have ruled out self defense. I don’t know if that follows a FL statute, or not, but I agree. Also I am aware that in many states GZ actions would have been seen as criminal, and denied him of his self defense claim. It should have denied his claim whether TM ever ran or not. The police investigation, the prosecutors, the court, and the trial are a wash, and that’s why we are here.
In my view TM is walking, and at times rather slowly, and is somehow not keeping up with GZ, and his expectations, and at some point TM is either forced to hide to avoid the person to person confrontation, or he just walks right into it along the dog path.
My view is based on the NEN, when GZ doesn’t want to speak his address out loud because he thinks TM might overhear it. Here GZ seems to believe, and has a real expectation that TM is near, and that he could be hidden and stationary. GZ seems to believe that he should have caught up with TM enough to gain sight of him. Or! Or, he believes he is ahead of TM, as is waiting and expecting TM. Here GZ is possibly avoiding detection himself or not staying to the sidewalk paths. The latter (Or) being one narrative element I haven’t seen considered. It seems a stretch at first, only TM doesn’t indicate (ever) to Rachel that he is hiding, and he is talking and continued to talk to her up until the initial confrontation. Talking on the phone would seem to have been a give away if TM was the one hiding. Hopefully you can all see my problem clearly now.
The initial confrontation doesn’t take place at the T, as all circumstantial evidence such as Rachel’s statements, and witness statements bear that out with reasonable certainty. The altercation, and shooting do not take place at the T, as all physical evidence determines that with absolute certainty. The circumstantial and physical evidence combine indicate BARD that the confrontation, altercation, and shooting, all took place in the same location, within a few yards (3ft. to 12 ft, max) of the body location and other physical evidence.
The million dollar question (if you will) has been, and continues to be; Why didn’t TM make it home?
Why didn’t TM make it home if someone was only following him? He seems to have time, he seems as if he is in the process of doing just that to Rachel. He is aware that he is being menaced, only verbally rejected Rachel’s suggestion to run at one point. This rejection could have been because he was avoiding detection, and to run or move would have revealed him. Also, he is avoiding getting soaked by rain as indicated by the sheltering at the kiosk. There is reason to believe that GZ is following, or at least that he thinks he is following when asked by the dispatcher. However, the turning on the dog path sighting is unreliable.
Of course, if anyone believes GZ, it is TM who is hiding, and waiting (to confront him) for at least the estimated 1:45 to 2:00 minute period after the call ended and the confrontation/altercation began. I indicate, “at least” because we know GZ is already believing that TM, could be near enough to overhear him while on the NEN call. “I don’t know where this guy is at.”
Narratives that don’t include running:
GZ is south along the dog path. I don’t know what course he took to get there. Everyone assumes that he went by way of the cut through, only he could have used the street and ‘breezeway.’ TM wherever he is, he is still on the phone.
GZ is south along the dog path because he never goes through the cut through to RVC like he claims. He goes directly to the dog path (course unknown).
GZ seems to be moving at some accelerated pace after he exits his vehicle. GZ is believing, or expecting from his movement that TM should be in sight, and by not gaining sight of him is believing that TM is close enough to over hear him.
Why doesn’t TM make it home? Because GZ has caught up to him, or is ahead of him at the point of the NEN call when he doesn’t want to speak his address for fear of being overheard.
TM might not even be on the dog path at this point. If you go back to the encounter near the Clubhouse; GZ lost sight, and may have never regained sight of TM until immediately before the confrontation. The alternative is, TM is there, and has halted, possibly avoiding (perhaps hiding from) GZ, while remaining on the phone.
Either way GZ is there and a confrontation (of some kind) is unavoidable for TM. GZ is there either searching, or waiting.
GZ ahead of TM (GZ waiting and possibly avoiding detection): It may be too far fetched for some to consider as ‘accomplice theories’ are for me. However, it’s not impossible (time wise) that GZ could have done this, and there is nothing to indicate beyond doubt that TM was on the dog path ahead of GZ, and that GZ followed him there. The one thing that allows me to consider this is the fact that TM was on the phone right up until the confrontation. This always gave me question: Did TM walk into GZ? Even believing that TM asked, “why are you following me?,” doesn’t rule this out as the “following” had already been established.
GZ catches up to TM (TM possibly avoiding detection): In this scenario one has to believe that TM is being followed (closely) at this point, and once on the dog path chooses to halt his movement, and assumes a location where he remains stationary (or extremely slow progress toward his home.) Once GZ is on the dog path near to where he expects TM to be sighted, and yet doesn’t; indicates that if TM is there his then location is unknown to GZ. TM could be either aware or unaware of GZ’s presence there. If TM is there, he has assumed a stationary position, and he is either seeking shelter, or avoiding detection. Either way initially TM is not able to be seen by GZ. TM’s location is not known to GZ initially. TM continues to talk on the phone. NEN call ends; GZ either continues to search, or waits (possibly avoiding detection too). Some minutes will pass before the confrontation/altercation.
There it is, no running; GZ either followed a walking TM (closely at the cut through), or was out ahead of TM (either without realizing it, or in a deliberate attempt to cut him off). In the latter scenario TM arrives later to the dog path and discovers GZ there. TM could have been behind GZ. Of course, I understand that the following scenario I’ve posed does not rule out running per say, but I speculate that if there was running then TM ran, at and through the cut through location, to the dog path and assumed a stationary position (feeling this was his best option). All scenarios, GZ goes directly from his vehicle to the dog path (course taken unknown). GZ is there during the NEN call, and remains there searching and/ or waiting for TM until the confrontation.
Thanks for your kind attention, I also want to discuss in the future GZ’s method of lying, as he establishes patterns that coincide remarkably with all the narratives I’ve read, especially willisnewton’s, my own, and others here. Please feel free to challenge my assertions in my narrative.
davidboe,
I may be speaking out of turn, but I doubt that any of the regulars here (I’m not a regular per se, as I only recently began posting here, although I’ve been following the case since the coverage broke on the national scene) would strongly disagree with you about the description of TM’s gait.
I think that what happened is that TM initially resisted Jeantel’s suggestion to run (possibly out of adolescent male pride), but when he drew near the point where he could go south down the dog path (and out of GZ’s line-of-sight), he may have changed his gait, and broken into something akin to a trot or a jog.
Unfortunately, as anyone who’s ever had a pet dog or cat knows, any sudden change in movement/direction tends to trigger an impulse to give chase.
Sadly, TM may have been ‘doomed’ to be profiled by GZ because of the latter’s ego/career needs which were exacerbated by various factors.
There was GZ’s stalled college education, and his financial problems, just for starters.
Add in that GZ’s ego might have been stinging from the praise heaped on a maintenance worker earlier that same month for his assistance in apprehending a local burglary suspect (thanks to prosecutor Rich Mantei for pointing out this).
Then there is the impression many have (because of his slurred speech in the NEN call) that GZ might have been drinking that afternoon/evening.
Last but not least, GZ’s wife is now saying that she had an argument with him on February 25, 2012 that caused her to leave and stay with her father. Whether this is true, I don’t know, but it would have been very interesting to hear the conversation between the two when SZ called GZ on February 26, 2012 at 18:48.
wordsalad
wordsalad, thank you for answering that, as I wasn’t sure that I had all knowledge of Rachel’s statements. I am aware and in agreement with the points you are attributing to his personality, character, and state of mind. Other information on his previous behaviors, and conduct regarding his participation in the town watch program have surfaced, Including an emergency HOA meeting held in reaction to complaints by many neighbors about GZ’s conduct (harassment). Also there is an interview out there of a former resident who along with friend was harassed by GZ during daylight. What was chilling was how he described the encounter and how GZ didn’t respond to his neighbor’s request to identify himself and state his purpose. In other words menacing, and trying to provoke a negative reaction. These incident complaints all involved black people.
You’re more than welcome. Nothing I said in post #157 is a revelation to the regulars here, and indeed, has been said by one or more of them over the course of the last odd year and a half.
I only touched on one aspect of what you put in post #156, but strongly agree with most of what you said.
Are you at all acquainted with whonoze’s speculative theory about GZ going south down the easternmost stretch of Retreat View Circle, and then coming back northward on the dog path, thereby surprising TM on or near the back porch of the Green townhome?
As to the complaints against GZ as Neighborhood Watch that you mentioned in post #158, yes, they’re disturbing.
Like many, I think that most of GZ’s behavior would be difficult to catagorize as blatant racism, but rather more like ‘pragmatic’ opportunism. (Is that putting a good face on despicable behavior, or what? };-) )
I think that he’s always wanted to be “in with the in-crowd,” and if his desired in-crowd hated a particular person or group, he would tailor his behavior accordingly (see incident with Middle-Eastern coworker).
This is conspiracy territory, but the Sherman Ware incident may well have been GZ acting as a stooge for someone who wanted to oust the then-head of the Sanford Police Department. It could also explain that “town hall” meeting in which GZ made the bizarre claim about the officer who showed him (GZ) all his favorite, secret places to take naps.
wordsalad, most likely I have seen the whonoze theory you described, and found it plausible. I liked the narrative a lot because it does two things; it explains why TM doesn’t make it home, and it uses up, for lack of a better way to put it, the time. I went there, only the reason why I didn’t stay is that from watching the walkthrough, I don’t think that GZ ever went to RVC. Also, based on that I could actually more comfortably visualize him reaching there on TTL, or even more so along the dog path, but if he goes to the Green home, RVC works just as well too. Still, it’s that pointing motion GZ makes in the walkthrough along with the statement that he still thought he could get an address, and his demeanor once there that makes me think he never went to RVC.
Your other information is most appreciated as it affirms what I have gathered, and the Sherman Ware incident was on my radar, but you have explained it to a degree where I feel an understanding now of it’s significance.
I myself like whonoze’s speculative theory about GZ going all the way to RVC via the cut-through sidewalk, not only because it uses up otherwise unaccounted for time, and explains a south-to-north chase described by some witnesses, but it makes sense in terms of GZ being able to view the back/east gate, a point of egress for “suspicious” persons.
As to GZ’s story about looking for an address, I don’t think even some of his supporters buy it, truth be known. I think it was a lame attempt to cover his renewed pursuit of TM. I’d have to look at his “re-enactment” again to refresh my memory about the pointing motion.
wordsalad, exactly, that is more of why I like it, and it correlates well with Rachel’s statements (“from the back”). I’m not finding whonoze’s narrative again? Haha, yes, I can’t imagine how they could. The pointing motion, it’s nothing, or rather it’s personal, it’s just one of the many indications that he was lying when I watched it. Humans are good at deception, but we are also good at detecting it. Once a friend watched it with me, knew next to nothing about the case, I have friends like this, and the first thing he said was. “sounds like bullshit.”
wordsalad, I wanted to add that the whonoze narrative doesn’t correlate as well in my mind with GZ believing he can be overheard while on the NEN. Of course GZ could have been on the cut through near the T and have reason to think that TM was near enough to overhear him. There’s more, only I think I should read the narrative again, because at the moment it is getting confused with some of my thoughts about it.
Bringing up GZ’s apprehension about being overheard is good. He may not have known exactly where TM was when he said that, but suspected he was somewhere in the darkened courtyard.
The thing that sticks out for me is that in a matter of about six seconds, GZ goes from agreeing to meet the dispatched police officer near the mailboxes, to asking for the patrolman to call him upon arrival at the Retreat. Why?
I have to wonder whether GZ saw TM again (or heard him), and had decided to renew his pursuit.
Folks,
School year is starting again. Time flies amazingly fast. Maybe GZ would say that it skips.
I have updated the report with a table of timed event. This will be the base to timing the videos.
Please have a look. As usual, comments are welcome.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Sy6soSh3-wG7v9j20_3189BJh8ZqYDVAX73C95QkFFs/edit?usp=sharing
tchoupi, Excellent article! Amazing work! Check A-18 for possible missing rectangle (in the description, not found on the image).
wordsalad, it didn’t bother me that much, let me explain. GZ was having trouble giving SN directions, and kept repeating the same poor directions three times. After the last time GZ repeats his directions, SN asked, “what address are you parked in front of?” Then there is the exchange that is meaningful to me, and then SN says, “ok do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes then?” GZ agrees, but you can hear his frustration. GZ thinks for a moment, probably about how far he is from the mailboxes at this time, and knowing that he wants to continue to search for TM. In my narrative he is there going south on the dog path, and he suspects TM is there because he is not seeing TM where he expects to see him (perhaps ahead and moving toward the back entrance).
Yes, GZ’s frustration is evident throughout the NEN call.
Why he should have been so frustrated is an interesting question.
GZ would say that he was frustrated because “These assholes, they always get away,” but as Investigator Serino pointed out to him, they don’t. There had been an arrest for burglary earlier in the month, and GZ was forced to agree that they don’t always get away.
I think GZ was frustrated with his own life which hadn’t been going at all well, and he was taking it out on the nearest target: TM, who had the bad luck to be a pedestrian outside at the Retreat that evening. It didn’t help at all that TM was young, male, black, and wearing a hoodie. Well, it actually ‘helped’ GZ, because in his fevered imagination, that made TM “suspicious.”
I’m digressing all over the place here, but in one of Serino’s interviews with GZ (after he’d listened to GZ’s NEN call), Serino used the word “goon,” telling GZ that TM wasn’t a goon.
I have to wonder whether Serino genuinely thought that GZ had said ‘goons’ in his NEN call, or whether he was subtly offering it as a sort of lifeline. (“Dude, catch a clue: cop to having said ‘F*cking goons,’ because if people think you said ‘F*cking coons,’ they’ll crucify you.”)
GZ, for whatever reason, opted for “F*cking punks.”
When you say “the exchange that is meaningful to me,” do you mean GZ’s remark:
“I don’t know. It’s a cut through.”
There has been a lot of argument on the web as to what GZ meant by “cut-through.” Some think it means the cut-through sidewalk that GZ himself presumably was on when he made that remark. Others think it means Twin Trees Lane, which “cuts through” the community.
GZ himself in a later interview said that he meant TTL, and it makes sense from the standpoint of where his vehicle was parked. Unless he jumped the curb (I doubt this), he was probably parked somewhere on that stretch of TTL between the mailboxes and the crosswalk in front of the townhome at 1211.
It’s aggravating not to know the precise parking spot even after the trial, but I’m digressing again.
For me, the significant clause is this:
“and knowing that he wants to continue to search for TM.”
Yes.
Yes, GZ wanted to continue his search for TM.
wordsalad, yes, the call is a distraction for him, it’s taking his focus off the menacing of TM. That’s GZ’s M.O. to menace and provoke a negative reaction. He’s tolerating the call, and he is actually disrespectful. However, that toleration ends as soon as SN advises him not to follow.
Anyway, the exchange that is meaningful was when GZ declines to give his address because he thinks TM might overhear him. That comes right after SN asked, “what address are you parked in front of?” That should have been interrogated in the challenge interview. Yes, I believe Serino was holding his hand, and that does seem like coaching, unless someone verifies that goons was common of the SPD to use. They avoid all tough questions in the challenge, and when GZ has difficulty they rescue him.
About the ‘cut through’ it’s possible.
One thing that strikes me when reading the timed events table is that GZ is the only one who believes that TM was not hit by the bullet.
Wit 06 (John Good) & Wit 18 (Jayne Surdyka) from inside their homes just say that the guy is dead on the ground.
T. Smith requests FD immediately while he puts GZ in custody.
In contrast, GZ jumps on top of TM right after firing his gun and sees nothing wrong about him.
Conclusion: Jurors won’t see BS even if they fall face down in it.
It’s disturbing, GZ wasn’t fearing for his life, he was afraid to have it appear that TM had out maneuvered him in the wrestling match. He went from a verbal exchange with a bystander about calling 911, to shooting his victim. GZ was well aware that there would be many onlookers arriving at any second, and he wanted to appear as if he dominated the fight.
“Conclusion: Jurors won’t see BS even if they fall face down in it.”
I do wonder whether juror B29 felt bullied. She might trust her god that she wasn’t, but others’ mileage may vary. Mine does.
The whole case was a syzygy of bad laws, bad presentation, and bad judgment coming together. How much of the bad presentation and bad judgment was incompetence, and how much might have been deliberate, I couldn’t say.
Whonoze,
the thread is broken.
All,
I made some more updates.
I fixes Figure A-18 per David’s comment.
There were some fixes required in the timed events table as the time sequence was not fully respected.
I also changed figure 7 to better show what I had in mind that is that the little traffic jump prior to GZ’s call is improbable if we assume that each event is independent.
Finally, I added links to the referenced documents in the reference section.
I’ll try to get more done today.
Witnesses map added in appendix…
In the States 2nd supplemental discovery, it is written that SAS Rodriguez took pictures of all cameras in and out of the clubhouse.
Are those pix released? I don’t have them.
I made some progress with the document in the section about timing:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Sy6soSh3-wG7v9j20_3189BJh8ZqYDVAX73C95QkFFs/edit?usp=sharing
tchoupi, I checked out the witness map, and read through the document again tonight. It’s impressive, and I am truly in awe of the research, and information provided. A criticism I have (to take with a grain of salt) is that the document elements seem that they are not uniform as they could be. For instance the map indicators are not uniform. The witness addresses, locations, on some maps are marked by varying rectangles and colors, and the witness map has white block inserts. Also, the two different types of images, Google map images, and digital graphic map images. Are those two types important technically? In other words if they are not then I suggest staying with just the enhanced Google map format. The reason why I suggest enhancing the uniformity of the image elements is that it will enhance the reader/viewer experience. I realize this a technical document, and not journalism.
Thanks for the feedbacks. I agree tht uniformity will help.
I’ll remove the witness information from the 1st figure as the witness map does the job.
I guess that what you call “digital graphic map images” are the snapshots of the 3d model. Could you confirm or give an example? If that’s it can either replace them with googlemaps or make a reference to Appendix C which is not built yet.
tchoupi, ok yes it’s the 3D model, and is that animated? Perhaps just grouping the different elements together would serve what I was after. I guess what I experienced was that I just got aquatinted with one type and format, and then I was introduced to another.
GZ got a speeding ticket in Lake Mary this past Tuesday:
I can’t drive 45
This is getting an habit for someone who never speeds.
The real mystery is how do you come up with a fine of $256. Why not $255? At least it would fit in a byte.
Actually, I’m also surprised that he could stop in the middle of a lane in full traffic. In OR, you have to park safely to the side and not disturb traffic.
Finally, his truck looks darker ad darker each time I see it. I’ll have to ask him directly how I shoud color the model I made.
In some places I’ve lived, the dollar amount of fine for various offenses is actually posted on street signs, and they do tend to be strange amounts.
Still, it does strike me as ‘hinky’ that GZ’s been caught speeding twice in such a short period of time.
As to the color of his truck, MOB thought that the 2008 Ridgeline was available in two different shades of silver/gray:
MOB on August 5, 2013 at 7:51 AM
We can make the 3D model animated. I’m not really after that since I just write an article. It could be for the future though.
tchoupi, I want to add that I do now think that the 3D model is crucial in revealing the scope of the analysis. I reviewed the document again tonight and I’m unsure if changes were made, or if it is just because I’m now informed by it, but it was much more scrutable.
This is really encouraging. Thanks
tchoupi, thank you, yes, the article is essential to communicating and illuminating the video analysis. I don’t think animating the 3D model is necessary to your purpose and goal. My concern (if you will) for the technical document is that it reveal the rigorous analysis, clarify the techniques, and highlight the information with regard to the crime, and crime scene. I think the document will do just that, and I hope my feedback is constructive at this stage.
What is the speculation for what TM does for the 20 minutes after his arrival at RATL? Some of the theories put out early on have him sheltering outside of RATL and arriving later. My knowledge is not as extensive as the members here, so I am trying to understand what I am learning. I thought GZ could be about to say something like, My wife – called, or My wife – wanted me to
davidboes, I think the consensus here is that TM was probably under the canopy of the mail kiosk by 18:54 (the connection time on one of his calls with RJ).
He might have been waiting for a break in the rain before embarking on the final leg of his journey back to the Green home.
The televised All-Star exhibition game wasn’t scheduled to begin until 19:30, so there was no reason to hurry on that account.
Also, he may have wanted to finish his conversation with RJ out of the earshot of young Chad.
“We all like to speculate. It’s amusing but we are kidding ourselves.”
Sure. We can come up with theories that are plausible, or even probable, but in the end, we just don’t know.
GZ may have been a trifle more circumspect in Texas. Well, except for that whole speeding thing. };-)
The difference between his speeding stop in Texas and the one in Lake Mary? In Texas, he pulled over onto the side of the road.
As to Taaffe, even he went on record as saying he tended to leave his own firearm at home. Is that true? *shrug*
From Rachel Jeantel’s account, TM was already at the mailboxes kiosk at 18:54, that is the last time they reconnected before TM made his 1st mention of GZ.
Sheltering outside of RATL is possible. However, if he went through neighboring complexes in look for a shortcut, he probably lost his way and time all at ones. Per my recollection, the only two neighboring complex he could have gone through also have gates and cameras. We have to keep that in mind as no evidence was shown that he went those ways.
Basically, there is no evidence whatsoever of TM’s whereabouts between ~6:30pm and 7:09:34pm.
tchoupi and davidboes,
“Per my recollection, the only two neighboring complex he could have gone through also have gates and cameras.”
I don’t have a link at the moment, but the authorities looked at surveillance footage from quite a few businesses and residential complexes along TM’s presumed path back from the 7-Eleven, but found nothing significant.
The one that especially disappointed me was the ‘unproductive’ footage from Lake’s Edge Apartments because of that little stucco gate shack out near the main road (here’s hoping the extra-long URL behind this HTML link doesn’t freak wordpress out any more than it already is):
Lake’s Edge Gate Shack
To me, that would have been a very convenient place to duck into for shelter from the rain.
It’s possible that TM crossed over to the other side of Rinehart Road to take advantage of the sidewalks because of the rain.
It’s also possible that he got a ride from the “three stooges.” The pro-GZ crowd likes that theory, because for them it supports the idea that TM was “up to no good.”
For me, it represents the possibility that TM had a warm, dry ride, and a congenial chat with three people close to his own age in the last hour of his young life.
wordsalad, thank you! I admire how you convey your humanity in your comments. It’s comforting.
wordsalad, I don’t agree that we are kidding ourselves, and speculation is important to the goal. The number of speculations that are plausible, and probable based on the evidence is finite. I learned a lot from being here this short time through reading the narratives of whonoze and willisnewton, and the discussions. Yes, there are many ways, but those two are some of the most plausible and probable I’ve read. My narrative was lacking some of the circumstantial and physical evidence that those two include. I didn’t have all knowledge of Rachel’s statements and testimony, and I didn’t have knowledge of the kiosk troll and the direction of GZ’s vehicle on TTL. So, those aspects made the narrative (no running) that I had less probable in my view.
davidboes,
I realize that this crazed wordpress thread is difficult to follow, but I was only quoting willisnewton with that remark about kidding ourselves.
This forum is all about speculation, albeit speculation using the known facts for the most part.
I hope whonoze notices that this thread is in tough shape, and creates a new one soon.
Hey Perfesser! Yoo hoo!
wordsalad, please don’t mind me, I was just a little worried, and wanted to state my thoughts about the narratives here.
tchoupi, thank you, so it’s 39 minutes. 20 minutes estimated as his arrival through the shortcut. OK, and so not sheltering outside of RATL, at the adjacent apartment complex’s mailboxes like I seen in speculations early on, because that would have been recorded and presumably checked? I’m just putting that question out there really, I will research it. Thanks again, I think I am up to speed now. I don’t want to disturb the progress here with a lot of questions. Still, if your analysis has GZ skimming the parking lot on RVC, I just need to check the timetable against Rachel’s statement that places TM at the mailbox kiosk.
New thread up: