Home > Uncategorized > Post-trial: What is to be done?

Post-trial: What is to be done?

George Zimmerman has been acquitted in Florida. The deck was overwhelmingly stacked in his favor.

1. Florida’s NRA-backed self-defense statutes required the prosecution to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was not in fear for his life when he shot Trayvon Martin. This is a ludicrous burden when the only witness who could challenge Zimmerman’s account is the victim.

2. The prosecution put up a half-assed case by any estimation, failing to introduce or explain key pieces of evidence, and failing to challenge the credibility of the corrupt Sanford Police Department.

3. Judge Nelson allowed a pro-Zimmerman jury with no black members to be seated by rejecting the State’s peremptory challenges of two jurors, on the basis of a Defense objection that the prosecution had challenged too many white women, despite the fact that Nelson herself noted that white women made up a hugely disproportionate percentage of the jury pool.

4. The jury instructions Nelson employed overwhelmingly favored the Defense.

5. Judge Nelson allowed the jurors unsupervised time with family and friends, leading to the possibility that outside information was brought into their deliberation. WFTV news story. Commentary from addictinginfo.org.

The criminal trial may be over,  but the Martin family may bring a wrongful death suit against Zimmerman, and there is a possibility (however small) the Federal Department of Justice may bring Civil Rights charges against Zimmerman, or investigate the goings on inside the SPD. More importantly, jury verdicts do not decide how major political trials will be judged by history, nor how they will ultimately influence our society and culture.

And so our discussion, and our work, continues…

Categories: Uncategorized
  1. wassointeresting
    July 21, 2013 at 12:28 AM

    What is to be done indeed? There was so much misinformation out there to begin with and I’m afraid that even more misinformation (e.g., defense animation) was let loose or became cemented in the public consciousness through the trial. How do you unring them bells?

  2. July 21, 2013 at 1:19 AM

    Thanks, that’s a great summary.

    As for un-ringing bells, WSI, I’m not sure you can do more except go and rings some other bells, the bells of truth.

    However much you might dislike Mark O’mara, I always said he was no fool. Poisoning the jury pool was a deliberate act and I don’t have much reason to believe that the women on this jury told the whole truth during voir dire, and that we not influenced during visits w family as well. Juror B-37 was clearly fatally biased against black people,

    It’s also patently obvious they didn’t take the time to examine the evidence, not that they should have been expected to to know where to look given the pathetic case the state presented.

    I’m still livid that the the state never even seemed to understand that GZ failed to tell the SPD during his questioning that the teen ran away. He never said that once. How could this not be highlighted to a jury?

    His lies were in plain sight the whole time and the state let them stand in for the truth.

    The laws of Florida in a case like this are nearly fatally flawed but credibility of the defendant has to at issue in any jury deliberation. For the jury to actually believe George was telling the truth means that the State UTTERLY failed to perform a few simple things. He wouldn’t take the stand but we never were shown why from the state’s POV.

    The state made a case about who cried and not who lied, and not abut who died, either IMO. But not stressing the complete PHYSICAL impossibility of the lies are what makes me ashamed to watch those prosecutors. It’s as if they rolled over on the issue of credibility where they had a slam dunk that was theirs for the arguing.

    And then after the outrage, yes, what then must be done.

    I’m for contacting the Martin family legal team first and allow them to see if any media can pick up the story of “bloggers sleuth the truth” and see if they can get some attention that way.

    • July 21, 2013 at 2:54 AM

      I wish I could escape the feeling that those of us out on the Interwebs who have compiled credible EVIDENCE and ARGUMENT on this case were operating in a vacuum.

      We have no idea whether the Martin family attorneys or any media figure is even aware of:
      a: The clubhouse security video work.
      b. The documented physical impossibilities between the “re-enactment” (and GZ’s other statements) in comparison to the concrete realities established by the NEN call.
      c. The mis-alignment of the bullet holes in TM’s garments and the entrance wound in his body, as documented by LLMPapa, which would seem to prove GZ had a hold of TM’s clothes and was pulling them with some degree of force.
      d. The credible audio analyses (by me) that GZ did in fact say “fucking coons” not “fucking punks”…

      I would just like to hear from someone, ANYONE, with access to a microphone — be it Ben Crump, Natalie Jackson, or one the host of reporters and commentators who have been covering this case — to the extent of, “Yes, I/we have seen this material.” I would be frustrated if they knew about it, and found it unimportant. But I am more frustrated to think they don’t even know about it.

      The question then is how in the hell can we get in contact with any of these people to find out if they are aware of what we (and a few others) have been working on for the last year and a half? tchoupi is continuing to do heroic work on the security videos, making the case even stronger. We can’t rest until this stuff has gotten beyond out little group of bloggers in the double figures and lurkers numbering no more than triple figures.

      (The security cam YouTube video has 126,000+ views. That’s not a massive amount as YT videos go, but it’s not bad. You might think SOMEONE in the J4T mediasphere would have had their attention called to it by now, and contacted me via YT. But no…)

      I’m convinced that sending emails to the publicized addresses of any of the people we might want to contact has about as much chance of actually reaching their attention as a message stuck in a bottle has of reaching someone on the other side of the Pacific Ocean.

      Still, I suppose we can start by compiling a thorough list of people-to-be-contacted and their emails, composing a SHORT message that explains what we have, and sending it off to all of them. If that fails, I don’t know… start making phone calls to different organizations until we find an actual human being who will answer, even if it’s just some intern, try to get them interested and work our way up the ladder of contacts. I could have done this kind of thing 30 years ago, but I just can’t do it now… at least not by myself…

  3. nemerinys
    July 21, 2013 at 5:48 AM

    I’m currently copying and pasting into Word the transcripts I can find of Zimmerman’s NEN call and police interviews. Then I’ll go through them for specific items, such as where he first saw Trayvon, the clubhouse/mailbox business, how he described Trayvon and his behavior, the different stories about everything else…

    The only transcripts I can’t find are those for the reenactment and his interview with Irwin before the CVSA. I know that the CrimeWatchers blog did once have a library that had these transcripts, but now it’s a forum and I can’t find the library. The blog was started by Cherokee Native, who’d once been a regular commenter at bcclist, View from LL2, and at Fred’s, so if anyone knows how to reach her (I think ‘her’), please ask to get those transcripts.

    Or if anyone knows where else I can find those two transcripts, please let me know. Ta!

    • 2dogsonly
      July 21, 2013 at 11:35 AM

      I left a message on her twitter that whonoze was requesting her . Her twitter name is@CherokeeNative3

    • 2dogsonly
      July 21, 2013 at 1:54 PM

      How to contact her
      @CherokeeNative3: @puffytuffy @Che_Wua Can’t log on for some reason. Tell Whonoze to DM me or come to CrimeWatchers@forumotion.com 🙂

    • 2dogsonly
      July 21, 2013 at 2:26 PM

      Cherokee nations says Direct message her(DM) her at Crimewatchers@forumotion.com and she will direct you. but I think she and chu wu are loading items into google drive, that way you can pick what you need.

    • July 21, 2013 at 2:44 PM

      I already have transcripts of the NEN call, the Singleton Interview, the Serino Interview, the Serino/Singleton “challenge” interview, the Hannity interview, and I have a text file of GZ’s written statement.

      I’m missing transcripts of the CVSA interview and the walk-through “re-enactment.” I’d also like to add excerpts from the Ostermans’ book.

      Collected text files are all on this page.

      • 2dogsonly
        July 21, 2013 at 6:52 PM

        Here is transcript link to cvsa interview from Cherokee native google docs stash


        • nemerinys
          July 22, 2013 at 4:21 AM

          2dogsonly Thank you so much for going to all that trouble!! I don’t have Twitter (or Facebook, for that matter), and I’m hopeless navigating how to contact someone without an email address. Thank you, thank you.

          I’ve probably misremembered Cherokee Native having a transcript (or partial one) of the reenactment. I’m probably thinking of whonoze’s video intercutting the reenactment with audio and text.

      • amsterdam1234
        July 22, 2013 at 5:55 AM

        I am sorry I haven’t been participating. Real life stuff is getting in the way. I’ve got a digital copy of Osterman’s book. Let me know what kind of format you want, and where you want it.

  4. July 21, 2013 at 9:07 AM

    I’ve posted two new YouTube videos recently.

    One is a video presentation of the first post here on the Wagner photo of Zimmerman’s bloody nose.

    The other is a “remix” of LLMPapa’s demos on the misalignment between the entrance wound and the holes in Trayvon’s sweatshirts. I have put everything into one video, condensed Papa’s stuff somewhat, and placed it into contrast with Defense medical expert Vincent DiMaio’s testimony during the trial.

    • Puck
      July 22, 2013 at 12:04 AM

      The kind of physician who should look at this is a plastic surgeon. They know nose anatomy.

      • Puck
        July 22, 2013 at 12:08 AM

        They also scrape and fracture and do other stuff to the bone there, so they know how much swelling is typical depending on the “injury” and how long it takes to go down. Another specialist who could evaluate this is an otolaryngologist.

    • nemerinys
      July 22, 2013 at 5:27 AM

      Excellent videos, whonoze – you’re a very good narrator.

      In Michael Wagner’s report (page 18, Discovery 1), he wrote that “On 3/18/2012 I received information” from Tim Smith that “no photo existed of George Zimmerman with his injuries.” Wagner had taken two photos that night (one of Zimmerman, one of Trayvon – noted only in Serino’s report on this subject), and he emailed both of them to Serino, who asked for Wagner to write up this report.

      In Chris Serino’s report (page 64, Discovery 1), he wrote that he received an email from Wagner at 0439 on March 21st to which were attached the two photographs.

      FDLE got involved in the case on March 16th.

      My questions are:

      1. How did Wagner “receive information” from Tim Smith? How did Tim Smith know that someone was looking for such photos, why was he the one that contacted Wagner, and did he contact Wagner specifically, or was Wagner just one of several officers Smith contacted?

      2. Why did Serino receive Wagner’s email with attachments so early in the morning on the 21st, yet not write up his report including those attachments until noon on the 22nd?

      3. Why, if he knew that people were looking for these photos on March 18th, did Wagner wait until early in the morning on the 21st to email them to Serino?

      4. Why, after emailing Serino on the 21st and being told by Serino on the 22nd to write up a report about his participation in the case, did Wagner wait until the early evening of March 24th to write that report?

      Observation: Tim Smith figures in the case a mite too much for my taste. I also don’t like how Serino, in his various reports, either noted that he spoke to Smith at the scene, or at the station, or with people (such as Ayala) who told him what Smith had said. Moreover, I just find it strange that Smith never wrote that he was familiar with Zimmerman from responding to previous NEN calls.

  5. July 21, 2013 at 10:18 AM

    Here I shall begin a list of media figures who we might hope to contact. I will edit this post to add your suggestions.

    Rev. Al
    Chris Hayes
    Martin Bashir
    Lawrence O’Donnell
    Rachel Maddow
    Steve Kornacki
    Jonathan Capehart
    Michael Eric Dyson
    Melissa Harris-Perry
    Lisa Bloom
    Karen Finley
    Eugene Robinson

    The Young Turks (Current TV)
    Charles Blow (NYT)
    Lizette Alvarez (NYT)
    Cara Buckley (NYT)
    Max Ehrenfreund (Washington Post)

    Mark Follman
    Lauren Williams
    Adam Weinstein
    Kevin Drum


    • July 21, 2013 at 12:18 PM

      I have written to Charles Blow and Fullman & Williams at Mother Jones as well as to the tip line for the DOJ. I plan to send more letters soon. The more the better, however and I would encourage any and all to send letters too.

      I wonder who Matt Gutman’s regular producer is at ABC news. The fact that they may have semi exclusive rights to Rachel Jeantel’s audio interview with Ben Crump puts them in a position to exploit this for ratings. She spoke to the issue of the car-to-pedestrian chase initially with Crump, and these “findings” were not picked up on by BDLR when he did his initial deposition.

      (does anyone know what becomes of the defense depositions now that the trial is over? Can a FOIA request be made for them?)

      I dont know much about twitter but perhaps a hashtag such as #whonozeGeorgeZimmerman should be generated as a catchall way to bring attention to the evidence we are trying to publicize.

      • July 21, 2013 at 1:45 PM

        Gutman’s producer/wingman is Seni Tienabeso, @SeniABC on Twitter. He’s African American, FWIW. He gets shared bylines with Gutman on the text versions of their stories.

        In general, news producers are better contacts than on-air talking heads. They’re less famous, so they get less email, but they have as much or more say-so in what stories get covered.

        • July 21, 2013 at 3:07 PM

          Well the closest I could find online was a very generic web form that allows you to send a 500 character message to an anonymous entity.

          I ended up cramming this into the space, and feeling entirely useless:

          “ABC’s Matt Gutman recorded an exclusive interview w Rachel Jeantel and Attny Ben Crump containing a key exchange not presented at trial of G. Zimmerman regarding a car-to-pedestrian chase that can be proven to have occurred using deductive reasoning and the map that GZ marked showing he was not parked where he claims, but where he crossed out his initial markings.

          FL prosecutors failed to see/charge this separate crime or ask Ms Jeantel specifically about this criminal stalking under Florida’s statutes, ruling out self defense. Bloggers have the goods based on ABC exclusive materials.”

          Obviously I’m trying to lead here with “ABC exclusive” stuff but the message is all but incomprehensible I’m afraid.

          I don’t do twitter. I’m insulted enough with 500 characters. With 140 I doubt I could do much other than clear my throat. Having said that, i think once we have a coherent short series of presentations a twitter campaign to bring eyes to the material could gain national attention provided we do it soon.

          My letters to the NYT were variations based on what I’d sent the DoJ, after getting no feedback here.

    • nemerinys
      July 22, 2013 at 5:40 AM

      Outside of Charles Blow at NYT for Frances Robles at the Miami Herald, I suggest focusing on Al Sharpton and Lawrence O’Donnell; both appear to be more interested in the case specifically (rather than the wider scope of the racial and political elements by Chris Hayes, Melissa Harris-Perry, and the others).

      Perhaps it would be better to send the material to attorney Ben Crump, who continues to represent the family (and, thus, more focused on Trayvon and the case), with the request that he contact and provide the information to Al Sharpton. If you don’t receive a response in the proverbial ‘timely manner,’ then contacting Sharpton directly would be appropriate.

      Here’s the contact information for the Last Word production team:
      Producers and Contacts

      The other reason I recommend Sharpton and O’Donnell is that they have the wherewithal to find the relevant experts for information and discussion. Lisa Bloom could then be involved by participating in their televised segments.

      • nemerinys
        July 22, 2013 at 6:20 AM

        foror Frances Robles

        • July 22, 2013 at 7:47 PM

          Robles left The Herald for the NYT several months ago. She no longer covers the Martin/Zimmerman case.

  6. 2dogsonly
    July 21, 2013 at 11:38 AM

    Whonoze!! You Da Man!!!
    I will help find their contact also. Research I can do to a limited ability.

  7. July 21, 2013 at 3:59 PM

    Here’s a dangerous proposition but one to be considered, I feel. What about the so-called hacker group “Anonymous?” They have taken an interest in some legal cases, including a gang-rape case that finally brought forth prosecutions in a town where no one wanted to charge the local football heroes even after the young survivor committed suicide.

    They have strengths and tactics but are akin to using a blowtorch to light your smoke with sometimes. In the above case, at least one boy was “outed” who had no connection to the assault. And plenty of ink and pixels were spilled somewhat indiscriminately – and yet the actions ultimately brought measure of justice to a place where there previously was none.

  8. July 21, 2013 at 4:13 PM

    I have made a page for text files of Zimmerman’s statements.


  9. nemerinys
    July 22, 2013 at 6:17 AM

    Does anyone here know how to contact commenter Screamin’ Jay (that doesn’t include Twitter or Facebook)? He had a site with transcriptions of all witness statements, but, while the site is up, the documents have all disappeared. I’m hoping that he’s kept them at another site, or has them on his home computer. He’s commented recently on bcclist (or maybe View from LL2), but his name wasn’t linked to any address. I also know that he is/was a regular commenter at TalkLeft.

    • 2dogsonly
      July 22, 2013 at 10:39 AM

      I just sent tweet to bcc.list owner asking him to contact screame jay so he can pop over here.

    • 2dogsonly
      July 22, 2013 at 10:41 AM

      Also, the witness statements are still on axiomamnesia.com

    • 2dogsonly
      July 22, 2013 at 10:43 AM

      Here is link
      axiom amnesia george zimmerman

    • 2dogsonly
      July 22, 2013 at 10:53 AM

      Sorry, here is complete link

      • nemerinys
        July 22, 2013 at 11:44 AM

        You’re wonderful, 2dogsonly. Thank you for all the help.

  10. 2dogsonly
    July 22, 2013 at 10:00 AM

    Whonoze and everyone, here is link to send info to http://www.splcenter.org/contact-us
    I would forward your superb information but I’m thinking one center contact for sending is best. But many contacts for signing petitions.
    I’m going to fill it out but direct them to this site.Hope that’s ok

    • July 22, 2013 at 4:54 PM

      That’s an excellent suggestion, 2dogsonly! The Southern Poverty Law Center has a track record and a name that is recognized nationally as a place to go for the truth.

  11. July 22, 2013 at 5:47 PM

    So I got robo-replies from ABC News and the DoJ (indicating it is indeed the Community Relations division that is handling these submissions.) Not to be dismissive of the fine work they do but they are a safety valve more than an investigative arm of anything. I’m going to go ahead and assume nothing will come of that letter and press forward in other ways.

    As for ABC News, it was actually slightly encouraging. here is the gist of it/:

    “To submit a story idea to one of the ABC News shows listed below, write a single page letter including your name, phone number, and address. Include photocopies of backup information. On the outside of the envelope, write “Story Idea.” If a producer is interested in your story, he/she will contact you. Here are the show addresses (street/ mail addresses for 20/20, Nightline, etc)

    Perhaps a fed ex is what would work best, at least then would have delivery conformation. The question is, what to send?

    In the case if trying to get ABC news to follow the truth I see there are two advantages – the Jon Manalo bloody head photo is exclusive to ABC and the Gutman/Crump/RJ recording is as well, to some degree. Stories that branch of of these items are what might tempt them most.

  12. July 22, 2013 at 7:52 PM

    whonoze :
    Robles left The Herald for the NYT several months ago. She no longer covers the Martin/Zimmerman case.

    That’s interesting. Maybe she knows a news editor there however who might be passed along something. I realize that her work was far from fully accurate but she does seem to have been at least somewhat curious about bloggers and their work on the case.

    • July 23, 2013 at 9:38 AM

      I just had a brief phone conversation with Frances Robles. She was vaguely aware of the ‘light event’ analysis, but hasn’t seen the YT video with the full workup. She seemed dubious about the news value of it at this point, given the end of the trial. I mentioned that “evidence the prosecution missed” might be a workable ‘peg’, and there’s always the historical record. She said she would run it past her editors, and the NYT reporters who are covering the case. (She’s busy investigating wrongful convictions in NYC.) I wasn’t all that encouraged by her response, but we can hope. I also asked her if she was in touch with Charles Blow. She said he’s almost impossible to reach, and doesn’t answer her emails. But she noted that he sometimes responds to strangers on Twitter. (That damn Twitter…) So if anyone here Tweets, you could Tweet Blow something like: “We have physical evidence of Zimmerman’s lies. Ask Frances Robles for whonoze contact info.”

      • July 23, 2013 at 4:21 PM

        I can’t help you with the twitter but you got the brush-off from Robles, I’d say. IMO the reporters covering the Trayvon Martin STORY (there in no more case) may or may not ever hear anything from her. This is akin to the “hollywood no.” where someone agrees with whatever you want to say but never actually says “yes” to anything that requires them to act in any meaningful fashion.

        If she were inclined to help she’d have given you the current reporters’ voicemail number or email, etc. Did she give you a name or names at all or was she vague?

        Sorry to be cynical. I don’t suppose you got any indication from here that she would do any follow up with you after she supposedly ran things past her editors, did you?

  13. nemerinys
    July 23, 2013 at 1:36 PM

    There’s a little problem I’ve not noticed until now. 33 seconds into the NEN call, Zimmerman said “He’s here now […].” This signifies that Zimmerman was already in place somewhere and that Trayvon was approaching his location, rather than Trayvon in place (such as the mail kiosk) and Zimmerman who then parked nearby.

    I have a couple of hypotheses. The first is simple. I believe Trayvon entered the neighborhood from the cut-through near 1350 RVC, the spot he marked on the Google map when interviewed by Singleton. (That cut-through is easily seen and much more accessible from the road than the one further south near 1460 RVC). According to my poor skill using the line ruler on Google Earth, it appears to be approximately 270 feet from the cut-through to the nearest corner of the clubhouse. My understanding is that the average walking pace is 5 feet per second for a young person. Which would take Trayvon roughly 52-54 seconds to reach the clubhouse on his way towards home. There’s no way I can figure out what his pace would be by walking “leisurely,” if that was indeed what he was doing; I’ve no idea what that means to Zimmerman.

    My second hypothesis is this: Trayvon entered the community from the cut-through near 1350 RVC. Zimmerman drove past him (either he already knew Trayvon was thereabouts, or he really was on his way to somewhere and just happened to see Trayvon). Zimmerman continued eastward on RVC, and turned right onto Twin Trees Lane in order to come around and pass by Trayvon again. I understand it would take approximately 54 seconds to walk from the 1350 cut-through to the nearest corner of the clubhouse (roughly 270 feet). If walking leisurely, Trayvon would’ve been close enough to the clubhouse for Zimmerman to know that he’d go in one of two directions: either continue east on RVC or turn right onto TTL. Zimmerman drove east on RVC past the stop sign and made a U-turn. By this time, Trayvon was walking in the direction of the mail kiosk, at which he took shelter. Zimmerman turned left onto TTL, drove slowly past Trayvon at the kiosk, drove a little further, made a U-turn, and parked on the north side of TTL, nearly opposite the kiosk. At that point he called NEN.

    This is meaningless unless light events from the clubhouse surveillance tapes confirm (1) no car parked at the clubhouse, and (2)any activity that supports my hypothesis in any way around the times these actions would’ve taken place.


    • July 23, 2013 at 8:12 PM

      CCTV show that no car came in to park at the clubhouse.

      Amsterdam wrote about trying to model where GZ parked on TTL. I haven’t heard from her yet.

  14. July 23, 2013 at 3:58 PM

    Pardon me for repeating myself, but I’m going to review a bit before addressing what you are looking into. It’s fascinating but probably unknowable in the end. But there are certain theories worth speculating about, yours included.

    Many things are possible. From Rachel Jeantel’s recollections it would seem that TM was under the mail kiosk before their call was interrupted, and before the rain started coming down hard. That puts him stationary long before the NEN call began.

    What’s visible on the clubhouse videos happening on RVC is difficult to rule as being GZ’s vehicle beyond a reasonable doubt, so any conclusions drawn there are speculative at best IMO. It’s almost impossible to say any of the light events there are GZ’s and say we know that for certain.

    However the car the trolls the mail kiosk MUST be GZ’s or else his entire NEN call is an insanely accurate fantasy cut from pure imagination. And the car that is seemingly the same one doubling back has to be him again or else he was never in the area at all at the relevant time.

    To me the key exchange that sets a “sync point” in regards to who might be where is the one that goes:

    NEN: That’s the clubhouse, do you know what the—he’s near the
    clubhouse right now?

    Zimmerman: Yeah, now he’s coming towards me.

    If you take “near the clubhouse now” as meaning that the teen was closer to the clubhouse than he was to any other building then it doesn’t really matter if he’s speaking about the mail kiosk or not. Wherever precisely the teen was, he is in the vicinity of the clubhouse and GZ is where he can see him. Now, if we go ahead and make the assumption that TM is under the kiosk, and walking at a normal pace somewhere near 5 feet per second then he walks past the spot GZ marked (and quickly amended) on Singleton’s map at just the time that seems to align with the NEN call. No other position that GZ ever claimed fits the timing of the call. If you place the teen anywhere else but the kiosk but still nearer to the clubhouse than he is to another building, then you only have to slightly adjust the walking speed by a fraction to come to the same conclusion.

    This is the moment we seem to have the most evidence to place either individual and the vehicle with. Rachel Jeantel puts TM at the kiosk. GZ puts him “near the clubhouse, now” which is probably the same place. RJ recalls that TM knew there was a creepy (guy) watching him from a car. It was raining. We’ve seen the timing of the clubhouse video aligns with the car that trolls the mail kiosk and then doubles back. We see the map GZ marked. We can do the timing of the walk from the kiosk past the car on the corner. It’s all there IMO. Other positions for either individual don’t work. Certainly GZ’s stories, contradictory and inconsistent as they are don’t fit the timing.

    So from there we can speculate in either direction – events before or after this moment. The difficulty I find with assuming that GZ ever saw TM on RVC is that not only is his story inconsistent, it is also likely a complete fiction drawn from other elements, other incidents and stands in opposition to RJ’s recollection of when the teen was at the kiosk in regard to their calls dropping..

    I feel it’s valuable to examine GZ’s written statement and to note that this was his initial explanation of the events of the evening. IMO he seems to skip entirely over any real activity he witnessed on RVC. In his spoken interview he begins to meld parts of the window peeper at Frank Taafe’s house into the story, but he’s not all the way there yet.

    “Tonight, I was on my way to the grocery store when I saw a male approximately 5’ 11” to 6’ 2” casually walking in the rain looking into homes. I pulled my vehicle over and called SPD non-emergency phone number. I told the dispatcher what I had witnessed. The dispatcher took note of my location and the suspect fled to a darkened area of the sidewalk. As the dispatcher was asking me for an exact location the suspect emerged from the darkness and circled my vehicle. I could not hear if he said anything. The suspect once again disappeared between the back of some houses. The dispatcher once again asked me for my exact location. I could not remember the name of the street so I got out of my car to look for a street sign.”

    While it’s POSSIBLE to put this account in alignment somewhat with the “Re-enactment” account, it’s not really all there. Certainly he’s left out an important element – moving his vehicle while being on the call. (We also know he’s always left out the most important part – that the teen ran away from him.)

    IMO what he’s ALWAYS trying to do is omit and obfuscate the car to pedestrian chase. Here he’s done it in a way to suggest that his original pulling over of the car took place down by the cut thru, where the teen doubled back to circle his car. But the “walking in the rain, looking at houses” might actually be a description of TM after leaving the mail kiosk and approaching his vehicle. Of course he’s intentionally being vague.

    It’s only when questioned more directly that he ever starts invoking the window peeper elements and conflating them with something he himself witnessed. ]

    Now finally, we get to your point – the phrase, “he’s here, now” and what that might mean. To me it’s possibly an indication of a change in verb tense that speaks to what happened “before” and what’s gong on “now.” And I think the “before” might be things that a tipster saw, not him.

    He uses verbs in past tense up to this point. “He WAS just staring,” and “we HAD some break-ins”

    Other points he seems to use present tense words. But keep this in mind when also listening to his interview with Singleton. He seems to have a division of verb tenses when speaking of events that allegedly are occurring on RVC and what happened when he was on the NEN call.

    He uses verbs in past tense up to this point. “He WAS just staring,” and “we HAD some break-ins”

    But note here – pre-map – how GZ works to omit the car to pedestrian chase. He’s not even yet BEGAN to obfuscate about ever being in the clubhouse parking lot yet. That comes later. Here he wants to create the impression that he moved his car from Taafe’s to the cut thru in one motion, beginning the call while parked near the cut thru. He’s omitted the mail kiosk and the car to pedestrian chase altogether. But he’s admitted:

    GZ: Um, and this time I was leaving to go to the grocery store and, like I said, I saw him, um, walking in the neighborhood the same, in front of the same house that I had called the police before to come to because this guy leaves his doors unlocked and stuff. And he was walking leisurely and looking at the houses, and, um, so I just pulled my car to the side and I called the non emergency line, um

    DS: OK. Were you, were you, were you armed at this point?

    GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: You were already armed.
GZ: Yes, ma’am.

    DS: OK.
GZ: Um, I called the non emergency line and I just reported that there was a suspicious person in the neighborhood. Um, the dispatcher, whoever answered the phone asked me where they went and I said I wasn’t sure because I lost visual of him when he went in between houses. And, uh, he said well can you tell me what direction he went. I said not really. Um, and then all of a sudden I see him circling my car. And, and then he goes back into the darkness. So..

    DS: unintelligible. You pull out of your house…and you’re heading..
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: and you’re heading, you’re heading down the road as your looking at him

    GZ: Yes, ma’am.
    DS: You’re on the phone? And he dips between two houses? Is that what you mean?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.

    DS: cause you lose sight of him, OK?

    GZ: Correct. And then he comes back out
DS: um hum.

    GZ: and circles my car while I’m on the phone with the police.

    Then he goes on to say that he left his car more or less at the direction of the dispatcher but for the purpose of finding a street sign. This is the FIRST time he claims he was ever directed to move in order to “maintain the visual” in his interview with Singleton but after being shown the map, he gets forced to double down on this idea by conflating elements of this earlier account with what is allegedly happening near the clubhouse parking lot.

    IMO the whole thing adds up to one motivation from GZ; and that is to omit, obfuscate and obscure the car to pedestrian chase that caused the teen to leave the roadway.

    Never once did GZ tell the tale to the SPD that the teen ran away. He only spoke to this issue when promoted, and even then balks to the point where he claims he can't describe how the teen ran – fast, slow, scared, glad, etc. It’s the lighting rod he knows not to touch. It’s the aggressive act that started the whole incident IMO.

    Only in GZ’s mind the aggressive act was that Trayvon had the temerity to walk past his car, ignoring his "authority" that he represented by placing herself between the teen and the back gate.

    (It’s likely he got out on foot to place himself and his delusional "authority" between the teen and the back gate in the missing minutes as well, but that will remain speculation.)

    apologies for the length here.

    • July 23, 2013 at 4:03 PM

      unfinished sentence should read:

      He’s omitted the mail kiosk and the car to pedestrian chase altogether. But he’s admitted elsewhere that he moved his car during the NEN call. It’s a problem he can’t reconcile, but he was only briefly confronted on the issue and as we have seen, no one at SPD or the FDL ever went all the way into discerning what the inconsistency meant.

  15. July 23, 2013 at 8:22 PM

    willisnewton :
    What’s visible on the clubhouse videos happening on RVC is difficult to rule as being GZ’s vehicle beyond a reasonable doubt, so any conclusions drawn there are speculative at best IMO. It’s almost impossible to say any of the light events there are GZ’s and say we know that for certain.

    It is true that on the one hand there is no picture of GZ or of GZ’s truck with his license plate readable. However, on the other hand there are few enough vehicles going east on TTL to state for sure which one is GZ’s.

    What I’ve learned so far using the model is that no vehicle passing by the clubhouse was missed. What I mean here is that even with lights off, a vehicle should be seen when driving on RVC. At minimum, we should see its shadow when at the stop sign on RVC by the clubhouse.
    I don’t know yet whether a vehicle going east on TTL with lights off would can go unnoticed.
    In any cases, GZ claimed coming from home. So, we one of those vehicles must be GZ’s.

    • July 23, 2013 at 9:12 PM

      Tchoupi I fear that is a fallacy to say that “because GZ claimed x, y must follow.” His lies are legion and cannot be ruled out easily.

      NONE of those vehicles “must be” GZs except the one that makes a continuous move from RVC to troll the mail kiosk IMO.

      Sure, GZ claims to have come from home but he also could have been coming from the back gate. (I’d say he might have even come from the front gate but I’m unsure if there is an event that could be that in the relevant time frame. Can you comment on this?)

      I do think there seems to be ONE car making a series of passes on RVC but we can’t know that is the same car, we can only theorize. I’m trying to be strict about what can be proven BARD.

      If the car that trolled the mail kiosk is not GZ’s then the question becomes, where was GZ at all? That to me removes reasonable doubt. I think we are in agreement here, but I’m not sure I’ve parsed your grammar correctly or not on this matter.

      The vehicle going WEST on TTL that fails to then pass the clubhouse cannot be said to be the same one that trolls the mail kiosk, but again the behavior of it and the fact that no other vehicles are in the clubhouse vicinity makes it arguable BARD that this is the same car, and it is GZ inside. Of course it also seems to match the map GZ drew upon and quickly amended.

      But using ONLY the NEN call and the map, I can place GZ at or close to the mark he made as a very reasonable theory that fits the evidence better than any story of GZ’s. On some level we have the question of “what happened?” but the videos and NEN call alone are what should be mated and judged. GZ’s tales after the fact are clearly part of a false narrative and should be discounted or not relied upon at all.

      Rachel Jeantel’s statements on the other hand seem to agree with the NEN-plus-video conclusions. There would seem to be less reason to discount them in trying to make the larger picture understood, but in point of fact they are so close to what is seen in the video that they aren’t anything new really, just corroboration.

      • July 24, 2013 at 6:51 PM

        I think our thoughts are perfectly aligned:

        I believe we have enough material to prove that GZ’s story cannot be matched with the CCTV.

  16. nemerinys
    July 24, 2013 at 12:45 PM

    Thank you, willisnewton, for replying to me, and thanks to tchoupi for weighing in. You all have worked so hard on those tapes!

    Thinking about it later, I’ve come to think we should just focus on what can be proved from the videos. To wit: That no cars parked at the clubhouse between ___:___pm and ___:___pm. Thus, Zimmerman never parked at the clubhouse as he indicated in police statements and in the reenactment. In the NEN call itself, he never claimed to be at the clubhouse, just that it was the “best address” he could give. With his mentioning “mail” and “mailboxes” a few times in later statements, it’s easy to connect the dots to Trayvon being at the kiosk and Zimmerman parked elsewhere to observe him.

    All else obtained from the clubhouse videos provides a good theory, but, after the acquittal, no media outlet will touch this with the proverbial ten-foot pole. The DOJ, as well, would likely dismiss anything they feel would lead them down the rabbit’s hole. The KISS method should prevail.

    We must also remember to begin anything we provide with the racist factor; that is, after all, why the DOJ is looking into the case. I don’t know how thorough they intend to be, but I’ll accept as a good sign that they’ve demanded that Zimmerman’s gun remain stored as evidence.

    • July 24, 2013 at 1:46 PM

      What you accept as “a good sign” I perceive as the actions of a government body that is charged with calming the waters through their “community relations” arm. So we differ there in opinion.

      But if you consider not parking where he said he parked as a starting point to the DoJ pressing charges on the grounds of a hate crime having been committed then I have to say I’m just puzzled. You’ll have to explain that one more fully to me. I don’t get it.

      I anticipate an eventual statement from the DoJ to be quietly issued (look for a Friday night Dump) announcing that “after careful consideration” that nothing will be charged and no “final” report issued, either. It’s clear (to me at least) that the DoJ never investigated the actions of the SPD or Norm Wolfinger’s office at all. So I’m not holding out much hope for any action from the feds regarding GZ himself.

      It’s politics. Two million people clamored for SOME action and they got SOME action. GOP governor Rick Scott appointed a white, staunchly conservative and evangelical christian state’s attorney Angela Corey as a special prosecutor to the case, a lady known for charging (black) children as adults in capital cases, and a person with clear political ambitions of her own. After a failed investigation, they presented a failed prosecution that faced impossible odds anyway given the laws regarding self defense in the state of florida, the poisoned jury pool and racial bias in general that was always going to break against the victim’s family.

      And the DoJ walked away, for good from ever instigating any real action on their part.

      We will see how many people sign petitions and such this time, but while previously there was a lying remorseless child killer on the loose not facing any seemingly credible investigation or criminal charges, now we have a man who was investigated by the FDLE, charged by a special prosecutor, dragged through a lengthy court process and a fairly quick trial and acquitted by a “jury of his peers” in a public trial where the prosecution utterly failed to present a coherent case to the pubic or the jurors. I doubt that the outrage will register the same way, or be responded to on an equal level of relative response.

      I’m more interested in the actions of a wrongful death suit, myself. While they won’t have any criminal penalties attached, they will at least establish the historical record assuming the case comes to trial and is presented competently.

      I apologize for my cynicism. But that’s how I see it. I’m still fighting for the truth but I’m not going to pretend I can’t see the writing on the wall.

    • July 24, 2013 at 6:42 PM

      Not only no vehicle pulled in and out of the parking lot in front of the clubhouse, but also 5 vehicles passages are counted during the 2 minutes prior the connection of GZ’s NEN call (7:09:34pm).
      Putting aside that this is a clear spike in traffic coincidentally taking place in the period when GZ pressed the button call on his phone (7:08:00-7:08:59), it means that other people did not even remember seeing the suspicious teenager GZ claims was walking on RVC from Taafee’s home.
      What I mean is that even if we assume that no vehicle made multiple passages, then multiple people should have driven by TM as he walked by the clubhouse on RVC. But, nobody but GZ called SPD and nobody came forward to even claim seeing TM and or GZ.

      • July 24, 2013 at 9:13 PM

        That’s a good point. If TM was walking from Taafe’s shortcut towards the clubhouse, that seems unusual behavior for GZ to be exhibiting given that soon enough he parked his car facing the mail kiosk and turned off his headlamps.

        While I am unable to argue that this is proof of anything beyond a reasonable doubt, I do think that this is what we are watching – GZ cruising around looking for someone he’s received a tip about. Call it a gut feeling.

        The whole “just tell her I shot someone” quip, combined with the “my wife..” slip of the tongue goes well with the calls and texts around 6:48 – 6:51 in my “Gut feeling” folder. At trial we finally learned that the markings around the shortcut that GZ made on the map don’t match his “re-eneactment” statements, either. I tend to think Shellie saw the teen either entering the complex by Taaffe;s or somewhat down the block from there, headed towards the clubhouse. Who is to say she didn’t stick around until GZ arrived, either? They seemed to have texted back and forth after the call, as well.

        • July 24, 2013 at 9:28 PM

          If they texted after her call at 6:48 there is no trace of it in GZ’s phone records. After the 3min call starting at 6:48, there is nothing but a few text to Virginia. No text exchange with Shellie.

  17. nemerinys
    July 24, 2013 at 12:46 PM

    Oh, damn, italics begone!

  18. July 24, 2013 at 9:42 PM


    I’ve made some slow progress on the document. I still hope someone will come to help. I also hope to see Amsterdam’s simulations.

    I’ve got some findings concerning the 2-3minutes prior to the NEN connection.
    When I first reported my findings concerning this period at Bcclist I wrote about 5 vehicles passing by. I dropped one later on as I found the light pattern a bit difficult to establish. i was wrong.
    The 5 vehicles are:
    1) 20:39 a car comes in and makes a left on RVC
    2) 20:45 a car goes east on RVC and avoids something on the street by going on the parking lot. That car does not stop as it is seen passing the stop line.
    3) 21:24 a car pulls out from across the street to go east on RVC. This is probably the reason why the previous car moved onto the parking space. Anyhow, that vehicle stops for a rather long time at the stop line waiting for something before turning left to exit RATL.
    4) 21:40 a car slowly moves west on RVC crossing TTL/RVC junction as the previous vehicle was waiting at the stop to proceed.
    5) 22:07 a car goes east on RVC and makes a right on TTL

    I could reproduce all that using the 3D model. That was tough but and believe I nailed it in the end. Three of the 5 vehicles passage are probably GZ cruising.

    • July 24, 2013 at 11:00 PM

      FwIW GZ tells of a car pulling out as he spots TM in one of his statements to SPD.

      I’m on my iPhone or else is look it up for you but it’s told to Doris Singleton I believe

      • July 24, 2013 at 11:56 PM

        Is that right? I’m impressed then. I have to check what he said.

      • July 25, 2013 at 1:09 AM

        GZ mentions the car pulling out as he spots TM near Taaffe’s, which we know didn’t happen…

        CS: OK. OK. What did you see Trayvon doing that caught you as being suspicious?
        GZ: He was looking at the house intently and then…
        CS: What, the same house?
        GZ: The same house that, yeah, that I had called about before.
        CS: Did he stop, did he…?
        GZ: He stopped.
        CS: In front of the house?
        GZ: He stopped in front of the house and then I drove, there was a car like backing up, so I, I slowed down, and then I drove around him. And he kept looking at me, and then when I passed, oh, it was raining, and I said, you know what, he’s not walking briskly to get out of the rain. He wasn’t, um, he didn’t look like a marathon runner that’s active and like, you know, that trains in the rain. He was just walking slowly in the grass and on the sidewalk. I just said, something’s off. So, that’s why I called non-emergency.

        What it means that he added this little detail, we can only guess…

        • July 25, 2013 at 11:08 AM

          This is just amazing. Thanks folks.
          Isn’t it that a good liar inserts as much truth into his story?

          It looks like the truth is that he drove around a vehicle that was backing up from his drive way across RVC from the clubhouse and not near Taafee’s home.

          The thing that I find lovely here is that this statement from GZ can be used to reinforce the claim that this vehicle seen at 20:45 is GZ’s. What we see in the Kitchen video is:
          1) a pick up truck as for GZ’s Honda Ridgeline, and
          2) the color is light as for GZ’s truck’s color that is silver, and now
          3) the vehicle is going around a backing up car as claimed by GZ.

        • July 25, 2013 at 3:54 PM

          Were this detail connected to objective proof that TM was already at the clubhouse I say it was evidence that GZ was lying about the walking about, looking at the houses activity. Based on RJ/DD/W8 we are fairly sure he was already at the clubhouse. It’s not proof of a hate crime but it as close to it as you can get IMO. If you assume he’s somehow linking the moment of seeing the teen with the moment of pulling around a car that’s backing out then we could almost say that’s more proof…. But how does one base anything on the word of a liar? GZ simply isn’t credible on so many aspects of his tale but saying this moment is proof of much of anything and proving it BARD is a high bar to clear.

          I still see the “car trolls mail kiosk” as strong proof of lies in conjunction w a map and the NEN call recording. And from there the positions are extrapolated – on forward to the car to pedestrian chase. But would a jury believe it? To me the fact that it fits the NEN recording and Rachel J’s stories gives me the convincing I need…

        • July 27, 2013 at 5:26 AM

          I don’t believe he was near Taaffe’s at all. It started at the clubhouse.
          Still remains, was he tipped off. IT matters for knowing the whole story, it doesn’t matter to prove he started stalking there. He may have been on “routine patrol”

          Phone all from Shellie half an hour before. Don’t think it was a tip. She may have been at her father’s place as Osterman claimed? then maybe she’s telling him, I’ve gone here to eat you make your own arrangements, and he’s fighting mad about it?

  19. July 27, 2013 at 5:03 AM

    Guys!!! you all disappeared! and I’ve been suffering over at LL. Just found you by accident.

    Lovely to see the fact-finders together again.

    WHONOZE I looked at your list of people to contact. Why? what is the idea? to get someone to do a documentary?

    What is coming up, or should be, has to be, is a CIVIL CASE where all this evidence will be needed. I’m thinking they never dug too deep into it themselves, expecting the murder trial to be successful. Could they be offered this?

    What we saw in the trial was, the State almost had it, but they missed the point on some of it. They saw someone with a flashlight at the clubhouse????

    Can we afford to let a Civil trial do that same? But I’d not like the defence side to have all the fine points, better they be caught unawares (not sure what discovery rules apply in a civil case).

  20. July 27, 2013 at 12:07 PM

    aussiekay :
    I don’t believe he was near Taaffe’s at all. It started at the clubhouse.
    Still remains, was he tipped off. IT matters for knowing the whole story, it doesn’t matter to prove he started stalking there. He may have been on “routine patrol”
    Phone all from Shellie half an hour before. Don’t think it was a tip. She may have been at her father’s place as Osterman claimed? then maybe she’s telling him, I’ve gone here to eat you make your own arrangements, and he’s fighting mad about it?

    It started at the clubhouse indeed.
    GZ moved the location to Taafee’s because he needed to hide that he has been watching TM at the mailboxes for a couple of minutes before the NEN started, and that he took upon himself to confront TM by strolling the mailboxes.
    He picked Taafee’s to make it justify his suspicion because in fact there was nothing wrong with the kid. Indeed, other people drove by at the same time and none call NEN or came after the facts to tell that they saw a suspicious individual walking on RVC.

  21. July 27, 2013 at 12:29 PM

    Just a thought: Doe any one of us has a copy of all the cctv videos? I don’t and I still rely on youtube which is not good.

    • July 27, 2013 at 1:17 PM

      Good to see you Tchoupi

      Axiom Amnesia has them. But they’re slow to load and need their own player. The best ones I think were Diwitaman’s.

    • July 28, 2013 at 6:22 PM

      I have the four relevant ones. I DL’ed them from the raw files DMan posted on YT. Once you DL them, you can put them in Quicktime or another video player and go through them much more easily than you can online. The quality is the same, of course. Finding a YT downloader that works reliably can be difficult. I’ve been using BYTubeD lately, which hasn’t failed me yet. It only works on YT though.

      tchoupi, if you can’t get them DL’ed from YT, I can put what I have in a Dropbox file for you…

  22. July 27, 2013 at 1:22 PM

    here’s one, there’s another with Diwitaman complaining they’re useless but a comment from Trent saying they tell the whole story. They all have timestamps on them. I don’t know how to download them to keep them though.

    Did you see the one the State had, where they said there’s someone with a flashlight? I didn’t see it,. but I was fairly sure we’d established there is no such image? which surprised me they had these tapes the whole time and couldn’t come up with what they mean.

  23. July 27, 2013 at 1:30 PM

    And actually I just vaguely remembered something I think I saw on this once, but the timestamps cover it so I’ll have to find one of the plain ones. I think it was actual images of an actual vehicle.

    • July 28, 2013 at 11:57 AM

      It takes him 36 seconds to drive 400 ft and do a u-turn. So he’s drifting along at what? 10 mph? I might have that wrong, it’s 36 secs on the video, is that more in real life? crawling in any case.

  24. August 3, 2013 at 6:54 AM


    anyone here?

    Any plans to get all this to Crump? I’m sure they haven’t done this preparation, in the hope of the trial giving a good result.

    A documentary might be interesting to a few people; only a civil case will force GZ onto the stand.

    • August 4, 2013 at 7:22 PM

      I’m here aussie. We would certainly like to know that Parks and Crump were aware of our videos, FWTW. The question is how to contact them. One can imagine they are flooded with emails about the case, and most communiques to them go unread. I have considered trying to reach someone there by phone, by I haven’t been able to muster the determination necessary to overcome my anxiety disorder and actually try it.

      I was not thinking of a documentary film, but rather trying to make a contact list of media figures who might be interested in a story to the effect of “bloggers prove Zimmerman lied using evidence the prosecution failed to present at trial.” But the problem is that sending off any communication to journalists is like shouting at a brick wall. You have no idea whether someone has read your message and chosen to disregard it, or whether it just got dumped with the volumes of spam they must receive. Without an “inside contact” the prospects of getting anyone’s attention are bleak.

      I feel like we are alone in the wilderness here. Perhaps I delude myself, but I think the analysis of the security videos MATTERS, and should be worthy of some media attention somewhere, somehow. I would feel much better if we could get just one person with access to a microphone or a printing press to give this a public airing. Alas, I’m not holding my breath.

      • 2dogsonly
        August 8, 2013 at 1:40 PM

        I am thinking the same French documentarians who made “Murder On A Sunday Morning” which won the Academy Award for best documentary in 2001. It’s the almost exact story of a black teen railroaded (by Jax.police.)The film is just wonderfully done. He was represented by two public defenders and a not guilty verdict returned in 45 min. All police and detectives went to jail.

        They have done another one that won awards but can’t recall their latest one.

        I hear your anxiety issue but not sure how to sell them without some attachment from you and Tchiopoici ‘s work. Of course, they are hit up with many projects that are equally worthy but our issue is one that is surely close to their heart.

        Could you glance at wiki, Brenton Butler to see what case won them their Academy award.

        I am trying to rent out a building I own and dealing with new city codes so I may not be able to put time in for a few weeks. But big march is happening 8/25 in DC and his case is still receiving media mention ( which is sort of amazing). And I am referring to Trayvon’s name ( not what goofiness tubby is involved in).

  25. 2dogsonly
    August 7, 2013 at 1:26 PM
    • wordsalad2009
      August 8, 2013 at 4:56 PM

      I sent an email to the author of that Amicus Curiae brief, giving him a link to this blog, and wishing him the best of luck in his endeavor.

      He said thanks, but that he needs a lot more than luck. He needs “people to rally peacefully on the news to bring public pressure on the Florida court system.”

  26. August 8, 2013 at 7:46 AM

    The NEN tape + security video is the crux of the case. It’s the proof of the stalking, and that in turn explains why he worked so hard denying any following — SYG and self defence was the only class he got an A instead of failing.

    It’s not enough maybe to support murder, but it’s plenty for wrongful death. Without the hunt, they’d never have come close enough for anything else

    the Amicus Brief is by a private individual (who’s had some successes representing himself in various court cases). I hope some bigger guns join him to help him argue it.

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