Home > Uncategorized > Zimmerman Trial, Closing Arguments

Zimmerman Trial, Closing Arguments

Maybe a new thread will fix the problem of posts not appearing. Or not.

Categories: Uncategorized
  1. July 11, 2013 at 8:52 AM

    Do I have the honor to open the closing argument threat?

    • July 11, 2013 at 8:54 AM

      sustained. here we go, fasten your seat belts race fans.

    • wassointeresting
      July 11, 2013 at 8:55 AM

      @Tchoupi, it is very fitting for you to be first to comment on the closing arguments thread. Let’s see if the prosecution brings up even HALF of what you pointed out a year ago.

      • July 11, 2013 at 9:06 AM

        I would agree with that if I could post!

        • July 11, 2013 at 11:53 AM

          Did I actually get to post this ?

          Thanks whonoze if you get this and you have done something.

          It’s in moderation so I can’t hold my breath just yet. It’s also one of several comments I made here this morning which haven’t yet posted not even as being in moderation.

          With just a wing and a prayer here’s hoping to this one coming through !

      • July 11, 2013 at 9:13 AM

        Thanks WSI,
        Let see if BDLR can make it real. It is going to be tough.

        • July 11, 2013 at 9:48 AM

          Sadly, very tough, imo.

      • July 11, 2013 at 11:23 AM


    • July 11, 2013 at 1:34 PM

      @Tchoupi Yes,the “threat” of West endangering all our sanities with his histrionics during the closing ?

  2. wassointeresting
    July 11, 2013 at 8:59 AM
  3. July 11, 2013 at 9:31 AM

    Testing with new Id… at least you all have to admit I’m tenacious!

  4. wassointeresting
    July 11, 2013 at 10:13 AM

    State is seeing a charge of child abuse.

    • July 11, 2013 at 1:29 PM

      Child abuse has just been taken off the table. IDK, but I think the State was stretching it a bit and they still have Manslaughter so all we can do is touch wood, cross fingers, or whatever goes with you.

  5. July 11, 2013 at 10:16 AM

    Just impossible to post any which way I try!

  6. July 11, 2013 at 11:23 AM

    finally mantei mentions the following “on wheel and on foot” someone needs to “learn him some grammar.” But at least he’s going there.

    Looks like both sides lost some specific instructions about the following. Wish we knew what it was exactly. Is any of this public property in the end?

    • wassointeresting
      July 11, 2013 at 11:59 AM

      I would imagine that the court (JN) would be reading the jury instructions aloud in court before they go into deliberate.

  7. July 11, 2013 at 11:53 AM

    Am I back in for real ?

    • July 11, 2013 at 11:55 AM

      Thank you so much everybody… thank you so much whonoze… finally I feel I belong again!

  8. July 11, 2013 at 12:05 PM

    Thanks whonoze, IDK what you did but it seems to be working… at least for now because over these nightmarish days I have sometimes been able to post here and at the lounge during a few wee hours of the morning but it was always short lived.

    If you did actively do something to fix it, and it wasn’t just ghosts in the machine, could you reply to me here explaining what it was so I can try to get it to the professor as I still can’t post over at the lounge.

    Thank you again and really really sorry to have been such a problem.

    • July 11, 2013 at 1:34 PM

      I feel for you. WP is running SLOWWWWWLY for me just now. I want to kick this computer across the room.

      • July 11, 2013 at 1:37 PM

        I need a bit of time to worry about speed willis, I’m just so glad to be back here I could cry! But I feel for you and will probably feel the same a bit later in the day. And I still can’t post at the lounge!

  9. July 11, 2013 at 1:39 PM

    Here goes everyone, let the ball roll…

  10. ada4750
    July 11, 2013 at 1:42 PM

    Yesterday, Guy opened an extremely interesting door that was totally new for me. I don’t know for you. He made witness Bertala said that she and so GZ believed that one of the suspect of her burglary was living near the back entrance that fatal night. This gives a additional and very strong motivation for Zimmerman to move South towards the back entrance. I don’t know if the prosecution will capitalize on that.

  11. July 11, 2013 at 2:16 PM

    Fuck. He’s never going to get quite a few things he could have used. But he’s doing okay I guess. This boiler plate stuff about jurors’ sacred duty is wasting time. CONNECT THE DOTS.

  12. July 11, 2013 at 2:21 PM

    Screen shot 2013-07-11 at 1.18.16 PM

    state’s timeline screenshot. finally.

  13. July 11, 2013 at 2:46 PM

    Well, there was something new. The length of the drawstring on the hood.

  14. July 11, 2013 at 2:48 PM

    Bernie just mentioned the direction of the blood.

  15. wassointeresting
    July 11, 2013 at 3:15 PM

    Bernie suggested a possible scenario of GZ having his gun out earlier than right when the gunshot went off. @Tchoupi, do you remember our discussion way back when I made my analysis of the raw DNA data and concluded that TM’s DNA was likely on the holster but it couldn’t be technically determined because of the cut-off values? I had stopped talking about that because it was causing quite a stir. I believed then and now that there was a struggle for the gun, and the ONLY reason why GZ can’t let that be known is that it would prove that he deliberately pulled it out.

    • Gracie
      July 11, 2013 at 3:36 PM

      I missed that discussion but I think you might be right.

    • July 11, 2013 at 7:18 PM

      There are a lot of grey areas, and I recall the discussion and thought you had great points.

      But here we are in the real world… sticking to what can be proved BARD is what the state wants to do in presenting their evidence and witnesses, or at least having the appearance of doing so. If they contrast that idea with the general idea that the defense presented OPINION while they presented FACT it might sway the jury.

      As to a struggle for “the gun,” sure many things are possible. What GZ claims happened is not possible.

      Who was the aggressor? That’s what would matter. TM had every right to disarm a vigilante.

  16. July 11, 2013 at 3:16 PM

    Interesting point Bernie made about GZ still carrying his torch where Trayvon was shot, but IMO he didn’t complete it with the questions so let’s hope the jury does, in my view questions that would need answers on this would be:

    a) How didn’t GZ’s larger torch fall at the T along with his smaller keyring torch if that was where he in fact first made contact with Trayvon and got sucker punched?

    b) How was GZ hold holding the torches while allegedly trying to get his phone from his pocket to call 911 and while looking down and searching Trayvon sucker punches him? I mean,

    i) did GZ hold both torches in one hand while he patted around his jacket and put his hands into pockets searching for his phone with the other, in which case both would have fallen at the T not just one (iirc, in the re-enactment he patted and searched with both hands)

    ii) or did he have one torch in each hand as he searched and patted and with the sucker punch only the smaller dropped, in which case how could he “scramble” (you need your hands for that and iirc in the re-enactment he shows visually that’s what he did), some 40 feet along the dog walk before coming to rest while still hanging on to the larger torch?

    Yet another absurdity to his story, but will the jury notice it!

  17. July 11, 2013 at 3:27 PM

    Yes Bernie GZ said he “suddenly realised” he had his gun with him, but so the jury realise the contradiction, you should show where, I think the Hannity interview, he says he ALWAYS carries his gun except when at work… where it’s probably prohibited.

  18. wassointeresting
    July 11, 2013 at 3:27 PM

    Why did they redact the word “mother-effer” from GZ’s statements?

  19. wassointeresting
    July 11, 2013 at 3:30 PM

    GZ just shook his head when Bernie said “was he going for his phone, or was he going for his gun”?

    • July 11, 2013 at 3:32 PM

      I saw that… probably did that hoping the jury was watching!

  20. July 11, 2013 at 3:31 PM

    If I were the Martins, like the parents of OJ’s wife, I’d go for a private prosecution if GZ gets off.

  21. July 11, 2013 at 3:50 PM

    Did Bernie note at all that GZ is re-enacting the struggle and shot in the wrong place and that where he actually shot Trayvon quite a few feet further down the dog walk?

  22. July 11, 2013 at 3:52 PM

    Anyone else think Bernie made a complete cock up with the club house videos? What a shame, why didn’t he note there was no car parked at the clubhouse?

  23. wassointeresting
    July 11, 2013 at 3:59 PM

    OMG, Bernie just skipped through the courtroom….

  24. July 11, 2013 at 4:03 PM

    well so much for that. the jury can look at the clubhouse videos in the jury room. Thznks bernie, thanks for nuttin.

    • wassointeresting
      July 11, 2013 at 4:09 PM

      Of all the LIES, you’d think that they could PROVE he lied about not parking at the clubhouse but didn’t. Geez. All that he says is there’s a shadow of a person???? Really??? Is he talking about the “shadow” that’s what Tchoupi identified a long time ago as part of the Honda Ridgeline in front of the clubhouse? Or was there a “shadow” in the East pool hall video we missed? Oh well.

    • July 11, 2013 at 4:10 PM

      Did the EMT’s whonoze thoughtfully sent you over at the lounge for the aneurism, get to you yet, willis ?

      It is so sad what they have done with all the information you got together. They had so much from you guys and have pilfered most of it as far as I can see!

      • July 11, 2013 at 4:25 PM

        OMG, huge error. Absolutely NOT pilfered, I meant SQUANDERED. I was translating straight from Spanish, “despilfarrar”

        A. vi
        to waste o squander money
        B. vt
        to squander, waste

  25. wassointeresting
    July 11, 2013 at 4:11 PM

    Why is Bernie making the jurors read the powerpoint? Unless there’s less than 5 words on a screen, you do NOT make them read stuff.

    • July 11, 2013 at 4:15 PM

      The PowerPoint is for Bernie. If he didn’t have it, he’d be totally lost.

      • wassointeresting
        July 11, 2013 at 4:21 PM

        I know you can have the powerpoint up there to remind you of stuff, but he’s deliberately going through slides, pausing for long periods to let the jurors read stuff. Just looks like he petered out at the end. Very anti-climatic.

  26. July 11, 2013 at 4:14 PM

    Oh Bernie! You just said there there were NO witnesses to the actual shooting when before you explained two witness claimed to see it!

  27. wassointeresting
    July 11, 2013 at 4:14 PM

    You know, I wish Mantei was doing the closing.

    • July 11, 2013 at 4:26 PM

      With you on that… and that he had written it, maybe with Guy, too.

      • July 11, 2013 at 4:31 PM

        Manthai probably did the Powerpoint.

        • July 11, 2013 at 4:33 PM

          Well he certainly ain’t no graphic designer… yellow text on a blue matte… that is so past it and just doesn’t help readability, attention calling or nufink!

        • wassointeresting
          July 11, 2013 at 4:37 PM

          Actually yellow on blue IS the most readable color combinations for powerpoint. Doesn’t look “pretty” and seems passee because everybody uses it.

        • wassointeresting
          July 11, 2013 at 4:35 PM

          You know, you may be right. He’s the technical guy. And Mantei talks a mile a minute. Looked like BDLR ran out of time, while Mantei would have zipped right through it.

  28. July 11, 2013 at 4:16 PM

    I wish Bernie wasn’t telling the story in such a round-about grandpa way.

    One of us should have made a way better presentation for the prosecution.

    Why does it look like they spent last night putting it together, when they had the whole past year? Ugh.

    • July 11, 2013 at 4:30 PM

      Maybe because they did just spend last night putting it together! Ugh!

    • July 11, 2013 at 4:30 PM

      I guess “De La Rionda” translates to ‘around and around and around and around…’

      Bernie de la Roundandroundia…

      • July 11, 2013 at 4:36 PM

        Professor’s asking what everyone thinks about the closing… better I can’t blog there at the moment methinks… I’d end up getting banned as a troll!

      • wassointeresting
        July 11, 2013 at 4:41 PM

        @Whonoze, they should have commissioned you for the script for the closing.

  29. July 11, 2013 at 4:39 PM

    oh Bernie. Oh Angela Corey. Oh the humanity. Someone buy these idiots and ipad and get them an intern and send them a TELEGRAM informing them about the 21st century’s arrival.

  30. July 11, 2013 at 4:40 PM

    Trent fucking Sawyer is more organized in his presentations.

  31. July 11, 2013 at 4:47 PM

  32. ada4750
    July 11, 2013 at 4:55 PM

    I hope one day we will know the all story behind the Club House videos. What a slam Bernie would have made with that.

    Did he showed a very small part of it? I was doing something else and was just listening. When i looked i saw nothing.

    • July 11, 2013 at 5:02 PM

      What do you mean, “one day?” That day was months ago. GZ never parked in front. he parked facing the kiosk after trolling it and doubling back. There is NO OTHER CAR in the area.

      I hope ONE DAY that BDLR figures it out and kicks himself so hard in the butt that his head falls off.

      • ada4750
        July 11, 2013 at 5:07 PM

        I mean why they did not use them. I hope some journalists will try to find an answer. Can be Rene Stutzman, Jeff Weiner or Matt Gutman.

        • July 11, 2013 at 7:07 PM

          You call those hacks journalists? Me, I’m hoping Chris Serino writes a book. That I’d buy. Or the pulitzer prize winning NYT reporter who wrote the “police missteps” article last year – if he wrote a book I’d buy ten copies. But the truth of it is that the people who have gotten it right so far are the bloggers more so than the lawyers or the pundits of the talking heads. There was a plethora of information out there and it was crowd sourced and peer reviewed on the internet for MONTHS. The wheat was separated from the chaff many months ago.

          To me that is the story that should be told, if anyone cares to hear it. I know I sound self centered now and I can’t help that, but of the groups that looked into this matter I can tell you that the SPD didn’t get it, and the DoJ didn’t TAKE it, and the FDLE did the lab work but AFAICT, they did not brief the state’s attorney well on what actually happened that night as shown by investigation and deductive reasoning.

  33. July 11, 2013 at 5:01 PM

    Bernie didn’t do much in terms of showing all of Z’s lies. Mostly hinted at just a few. I’m hoping he was pulling a Columbo, or something.

  34. Gracie
    July 11, 2013 at 5:08 PM

    I think Bernie hit on most of the major points: GZ’s story couldn’t be true — you can’t even give him a reasonable doubt that it could be true because it is a big LIE. A proven lie.

    • July 11, 2013 at 5:18 PM

      I agree he SAID that a bunch of times. It would have been nice if he had bothered to PROVE that a bunch of times, too.

  35. July 11, 2013 at 5:44 PM

    Is the prosecution allowed to say anything more after the Defense’s closing arguments, or was this it?

    • July 11, 2013 at 5:51 PM

      It will be a rebuttal. I initaly understood Mantai would do it, but everybody seem to say that it will be Guy.

  36. July 11, 2013 at 5:50 PM

    Instead of “deprived mind”, I wish there were a crime category associated with “narcissistic mind in a failing individual”.

    The jury, prosecution, judge, defense and everybody in the court room would have shout as one “GUILTY”.

    • wassointeresting
      July 11, 2013 at 6:21 PM

      I think you mean to say “depraved mind”, although one could argue that GZ has a “deprived” mind as well.

      • July 11, 2013 at 6:50 PM

        That’s right. I would not have caught it.

        • July 11, 2013 at 7:09 PM

          The play West Side Story has the famous line, “I yam depraved on account of bein’ deprived, offica Crumke”

        • July 11, 2013 at 7:51 PM

          Don’t you mean Offica Knoffke?

          (Actually, it’s Krupke in WST, but I quibble…)

      • July 11, 2013 at 8:15 PM

        : – )

  37. July 11, 2013 at 7:49 PM

    **to the tune of “O Tannenbaum”**

    Oh Unitron, oh Unitron
    We wonder what you’re thinking
    Do you opine, oh Unitron
    That Bernie’s close was stinking
    If you’ve not left this blog behind
    We long to know your skeptic mind
    Oh Unitron, dear Unitron
    Whatever are you thinking?

  38. July 11, 2013 at 7:56 PM

    whonoze i wrote this over on leatherman blog and kinda got on a roll. You are speaking to wolfinger and lee, etc. and I had to respond. I don’t have all my thoughts together yet but here are some. It’ s been a long day.


    I sympathize greatly but have a slightly different view. The march of time and the dignified fight that the Martin family brought to this is what matters. Since this case hit the news, no new state has passed any SYG laws. Bonaparte fired Bill Lee. Norm Wolfinger, an elected official quietly announced he would not run for re-election. They are out of power, and out of work.

    The president of the USA spoke out about his concern for the case and what it means, and the DoJ made a small show of federal response and thru this managed to help put pressure, the pressure brought to bear by 2 million internet petition signers, to have the governor of a backwards state at least try to do the right thing and appoint a special prosecutor. The great weight of the state’s FDLE and a team of good lawyers put on a case for M2 and the world is watching it.

    Who made a difference? Two million people learned they have the power to put pressure onto a bad situation and get results. Hopefully that’s two million and more who learned a lesson.

    The struggle continues. Did the (real) bad guys get away? Don’t they always? The struggle continues.

    GZ is small potatoes. He’s a garden variety loser and his life is over any way the verdict comes down. Put him in the minus column, and soon the dustbin of history, and put the two million plus who petitioned and peacefully demonstrated into another. And put the Martin family on a pedestal for all-time in the grace under fire and dignity hall of fame. Forget the lawyers, all of them. Especially the defense lawyers. They do their jobs and get paid. Some are good and some are good at what they do. No one should feign surprise however at anything they do or say. We knew this was going to be a bumpy road. (Forget it Jake, it’s chinatown.)

    I agree the larger case deserved a full and credible OUTSIDE (that means federal) investigation that dragged Wolfinger and Bill Lee into the Florida sunshine, and more importantly dragged ALEK and the SYG laws into same. But on some levels the latter happened. The struggle continues.

    This was all a sideshow if people don’t wise up and take a lesson from it, and I mean everyone who was touched by this case, be it treeslum or me and you, whonoze. Many of the intolerant will never be redeemed in this lifetime. But the best we can hope its that when they crawl out into public , people recognize them for what they are, which is Human slime. Slime evolves eventually to a higher life form but it takes time. The struggle continues. Each time a racist has to get on a soapbox, they get marked for what they are. Good for us. Hopefully we can cross the street when we have to pass them, and don’t suffer the fate of Trayvon Martin when he did the same. Mark them for what they are and shame them into their compounds, I guess.

    But what about us? What can we learn here? How can this case change us and what we feel and think? We can evolve, too I hope from this. We’ve seen the power we have when we crowd source, and organize and work and play well with one another. But could we have done more? Should we have done more? Let’s keep discussing these issues.

    • July 11, 2013 at 8:39 PM

      As I replied on FLLB*:

      “Thanks for the substantive and well-thought-out response willis. Good points all around.”

      * or should we call it the BdlRCS (imaginary points for anyone guessing the ‘CS’).

    • Gracie
      July 12, 2013 at 1:36 AM

      And don’t forget, after this is over, GZ will post on MySpace or Facebook how he “beat the charges,” etc. (I’m sorry. He just makes me sick.)

  39. blushedbrown
    July 11, 2013 at 8:39 PM

    following the blog………………………..

  40. wassointeresting
    July 11, 2013 at 9:14 PM

    Now, we know full well GZ didn’t jump out of his truck to look for an address, but I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, I think the state concentrating on GZ’s “lie” of not knowing the street name is going to backfire. At least I don’t think they presented it right. GZ clearly did not know that the street was Twin Trees Lane once the turn curved around. Directly on the NEN call, he tells Sean he didn’t know the address because it’s a cut-through. It’s ludicrous to think he’d lie to NEN about that. Didn’t the state think that O’Mara isn’t going to play that part of the tape to counter that argument? What he should have simply done is just play the NEN call and remind the juror’s of the “shit he’s running” comment and off he runs versus the re-enactment when he’s calmly saying “Oh, that’s when I thought to get out and look for an address”.

    I also predict the defense is going to use the neighbor’s testimony (Elouise) to say that she lived there for a couple of years too and didn’t know it was Twin Trees Lane where GZ parked because she kept calling it retreat view circle. There was no other reason to call her to testify since the state never contested where GZ was actually parked.

    • July 11, 2013 at 9:32 PM

      @wassointeresting Good thinking about Elouise. I never understood why Defence called her except as yet another voice “expert”, and I even thought it had backfired because if I understood correctly she seemed to think the “screans” were (or could have been?) probablyTrayvon and only the several “help” GZ’s. But, yes, I reckon you’re right and she will be noted in the defence’s submission tomorrow!

    • July 11, 2013 at 9:43 PM

      I kind of agree about the street. GZ couldn’t come up with the name when he was trying to describe his location to Sean. But why? There are only 3 streets and he IS the neighborhood watch guy. I’d say it’s the same reason he says 111 RVC instead of 1111. He’s under the influence. Maybe the jury will connect those dots. I dunno.

      If I have to say something good about BdlR’s presentation, I’d say he did a good job emphasizing GZ’s most obvious, and perhaps most telling, lie: ‘I wasn’t following, just going in the same direction to get an address.’ There’s no way any kind of PTSD or being ‘stunned’ can explain that particular piece of BS. And that ‘skipping’ reply to Hannity (said with the trademark GZ smirk) is a pretty obvious whopper.

      I doubt MOM will spend much time trying to explain GZ’s false statements one-by-one. I think he’ll just throw out that ‘GZ was stunned and has a bad memory anyway’ line in general. He’s always said he wants to focus on the moments leading up to the shot. I think his argument will be: ‘my client got hit, and he had injuries, so you can’t prove BRD that he wasn’t in fear for his life, and that is that matters under the law.’

      • July 11, 2013 at 10:51 PM

        I agree that the defense will concentrate on the moment the shot was fired and only go back in time as little as they feel the need to.

        Let’s apply some reverse logic to the biggest lie – “looking for an address.”

        FWIW the story of getting out of the car is total BS – especially coupled with the thought that he’s always omitting the kid running away – but he always stuck to it and never wavered, so who is to say that WASN’T the thought in his head? How can you prove prove prove he was thinking something else? It’s so sad. Thankfully jurors get to apply common sense. The kid ran, he says so to dispatch, and then the car door opens three seconds later while he curses under his breath and huffs and puffs along until he’s asked point blank…. are you following him?” “yeah. ”

        Only in GZ’s own mind will that “I never wavered” shit fly. Even the treepers can’t hold their noses and let that pass the smell test.

        So yeah, it’s the boat anchor that should sink his dinghy. He’ll never live that one down. But is that M2? or is it a regrettable reason he want that way, lied about it later, and DIDN’T find his prey? He gets so many bites at the damn apple. Some juror could argue, yeah, hes a liar but he was jumped and sucker punched!

        And on and on the parade goes up until the shot is fired.

        On some level let’s argue for a moment that this crime took place in a black box. A vacuum. Two people went in and one came out. OPen the box and theres a dead guy. The live on claims he had to shoot, he was attacked.

        Who’s to say he lied? To me you have to look OUTSIDE the box to get the answer. Inside there are no answers. (obviously there are circumstantial clues like the DNA and blood etc but lets keep arguing the pure and bare case for clarity.) To me the car to pedestrian chase proves the ill will of the killer BEFORE he entered the black box, or proverbial dark alley.

        So while the “getting the address” is the biggest lie in some ways, the easiest bullshit to spot, anyways, its the lie about the car chase the George says never happened that is the actual key to the case, the key to ill intent, the key to M2 and not manslaughter.

        And the state never stressed it to the jury. It’s not easy to spot. I think frankly that they pretty much missed the significance, or else decided they couldn’t prove it happened BARD. But they should have tried.

      • wassointeresting
        July 11, 2013 at 11:15 PM

        I went back to listen to the NEN call again for the 1000th time. Here’s my take on the address thing. He sees TM take off, so he jumps outta the truck and goes running/jogging/ really fast walking. By the time that Sean asks him “What is the address that you’re parked in front of?”, GZ is likely way past the front of Lauer’s house. GZ replies, I don’t know, it’s a cut-through so I don’ know the address. I don’t think he’s calling Twin Trees Lane a “cut-through”. The cut-through is the top of the T. So he’s saying, he’s on a cut-through (which is behind the townhomes) so he can’t see a house number from there. It’s not so much that he doesn’t know the name of the street. Of course, after the shooting he realizes he needs to figure out an excuse to explain why he went running after TM, so he makes up the excuse of needing to get an address, knowing full well what he told Sean on the NEN call and thinking that no one would be able to tell if he was still in his car or on the chase.

        • July 12, 2013 at 12:56 AM

          Honestly, I’m not certain and I never was that GZ saying “it’s a cut-through” refers to the sidewalk cut-through.
          Since the conversation was about where the truck was parked and that GZ could not remember TTL, I always wondered if he was in fact talking about TTL.
          In his interview with Singleton on the same night, he explains that TTL is the street that cuts through in contrast with RVC that goes around RATL.
          This is one the the things I’ll never know.

  41. ada4750
    July 11, 2013 at 9:52 PM

    I listened again the first part before the break. I liked it better. Bernie had very good drive. He was convincing. I am sure that many jurors consider very seriously that GZ chased Trayvon all the way. This is the first key point. The second key point is about GZ minor injuries. Same thing, the message past to the jury. There is enough there for manslaughter.

    Things got somewhat less good after the break. The last key point is whether GZ was under Trayvon or not when he shot. BDLR raised doubts but i am afraid that was not sufficient.

    • ada4750
      July 11, 2013 at 10:15 PM

      Oh yes, one more key point was that maybe GZ had his gun much before he said. But same conclusion. not enough evidence.

    • July 11, 2013 at 11:12 PM

      I think it may have been wise for the prosecution to generalize about the overall following aspect. if they can put two thoughts into a jurors head, and those two thoughts are “he followed the kid into the proverbial dark alley” and “he’s a liar,” that may be enough. Why complicate things?

      We shall see.

      I think the problem with that is Jeralyn Merrit’s eternal argument, that these two things alone do not prove a murder happened. The prove he ran into an alley – not a crime – and that he hasn’t always told the truth.

      • July 12, 2013 at 12:50 AM

        I go between thinking JM really believes her BS, or that this is simply an exercise for her and in her heart, (if she has one at least in respect of this case) she may actually believe GZ culpable, even if only minimally and in part. But then a self defence lawyer doesn’t want to know the truth, nor wants to have doubts or suspicions in respect of a murderer client… it’s neither propitious nor convenient for the client lawyer or for winning a case.

        • July 12, 2013 at 12:51 AM

          errata “… it’s neither propitious nor convenient for the client lawyer relationship or for winning a case”

    • July 12, 2013 at 1:08 AM

      I listen to BLDR closing argument again, too.
      I now think there is a plan that takes into account that 1) MoM will have his turn during which he will emphasize how GZ’s narrative fits the evidence, how Serino proved that he was believable, and how TM was brutal, and that 2) it will be a rebuttal.
      So, if I’m right, BLDR kept on being superficial in explaining every talking points and barely connected the dots because it will be done at rebuttal where they will be able to focus on GZ’s claims.
      Today, BLDR focused mostly on showing that TM was minding his own business and did not have to die that night. He also focused on showing ill will. Rebuttal will press on lies and inconsistencies in a way that counters defense.

  42. July 12, 2013 at 12:53 AM

    Anyone interested TL has a slide show of the State’s powerpoint graphics:


    • July 12, 2013 at 1:43 AM

      thats interesting to look at but the jury only saw them once as they flashed by awkwardly.

      I’m not a lawyer but it seems to me that those points were supposed to have been made while the state was presenting their case not WHILE some other speech was going on. If only they had presented a FDLE investigator it seems so obvious to me but what do I know? Connect the dots!

  43. July 12, 2013 at 12:56 AM

    If anyone’s interested in some transcripts of the trial, and it does include Bernie’s closing statement, here is the link:


  44. Gracie
    July 12, 2013 at 1:34 AM

    Here is the document with the jury instructions for tomorrow:


    • July 12, 2013 at 1:47 AM

      now that’s helpful.

    • July 12, 2013 at 2:56 AM

      Thanks Gracie.

      A little gem:

      Remember, the lawyers are not on trial. Your feelings about them should not influence your decision in this case.

      But the part that most plays for the verdict, whatever the charge, I have copied below. We all have “an abiding conviction of guilt” but how can the jury, with the evidence or lack thereof, presented in this trial, come to the same conclusion?

      From where I see it, there is no unassailable evidence either way, only GZ shot Trayvon. From the reference to “speculative” I understand why Bernie never put up a theory, which by it’s nature is speculative, but what a shame he didn’t use the tape measure, map and chrono, because the physical fact that without jets on his heels Trayvon’s walk was impossible, I doubt could be called “speculative”, or if defence uses the animation showing Trayvon at GZ’s side instead of straddling him as GZ claimed, showing even the defence accept GZ could not have got the gun out if as he claims he was straddled, I don’t think that would be “speculative” either.

      Anyway, I am going to wait to think more until the defence puts forward its “proof” in a few hours, meanwhile I’m off to bed for a few hours.

      Whenever the words “reasonable doubt” are used you must consider the following:

      A reasonable doubt is not a mere possible doubt, a speculative, imaginary or forced doubt. Such a doubt must not influence you to return a verdict of not guilty if you have an abiding conviction of guilt. On the other hand if, after carefully considering, comparing and weighing all the evidence, there is not an abiding conviction of guilt, or, if having conviction, it is one which is not stable but one which wavers and vacillates, then the charge is not proved beyond every reasonable doubt and you must find George Zimmerman not guilty because the doubt is reasonable.

      It is to the evidence introduced in this trial, and to it alone, that you are to look for that proof.

      PS anyone else think the second line starting “Such a doubt…” doesn’t quite tally with the first line, or am I too tired to think properly?

  45. July 12, 2013 at 2:20 AM

    so he jumps outta the truck and goes running/jogging/ really fast walking.

    A small point, I know, but I have battled actual wind noise on scores of documentary film shoots over 30+ years. That sound on the NEN call is not wind. It is my conclusion it can only come from the jostling of the phone attendant to trying to hold it to the ear while running. Walking at any speed would not yield such motion. Running at any speed would. I’d say GZ is moving a bit faster than a jog (at least for normal people… GZ’s running-at-pace is probably slower than Jane Sudyka’s jog.) Just one more thing he felt compelled to lie about, as he takes pains to assert he was WALKING during the re-enactment.

    IIRC Bernie made some passing reference to the lack of wind in his closing ramble… The State did enter the Ravena Park weather stats into evidence, and MOM took the trouble to objecting to them on the basis of the distance of RP Station from RATL. But it seems to be yet another piece of the puzzle that remains lost somewhere on the floor.

    • July 12, 2013 at 3:14 AM

      its not lost on this blog. its lost to the jury tho I bet. But whatever the sound and it’s mic mishandling i agree – a juror can hear it. He’s lying.

  46. July 12, 2013 at 9:23 AM

    Do the jury get these graphics seeing as they are portable ‘cos I don’t think the jury can read them all piled up on the witness box and a chair!

    • wassointeresting
      July 12, 2013 at 9:53 AM

      Yes, those graphics do go back with the jury. I think I heard O’Mara said at one point he was entering a document into evidence, just happens to be 7 foot long (the timeline). The state of course needed to verify its accuracy also.

    • wassointeresting
      July 12, 2013 at 9:55 AM

      Well, maybe not all of the graphics, some may be just for demonstration, just like the animation.

      • July 12, 2013 at 10:16 AM

        You jogged my memory about the defence’s time line being put into evidence (saved the State making one) and it may even be good for the State’s case. The layout of the dog walk I thought the State’s and in evidence, but as you say, I don’t see the list of why they can’t find GZ guilty could be in because it’s hardly evidence and the have the jury instructions for that.

        I expect you saw MOM just ending for the break saying something about the State not having given a shred of evidence of what Martin was doing for 4 mins. Now from the defence’s timeline (I just checked) there’s only about 30 secs when Trayvon is off the phone from Rachel, (7:11:45 to 7:12:05), until the alleged “punch” so they do have evidence of what he was doing with Rachel’s testimony, so are they going now to try to demolish it… something West failed miserably to do in court:

      • July 12, 2013 at 10:22 AM

        WSI… help!
        My calculations must be way out and I don’t get why? Didn’t MOM just say the call was cut 4 mins and I can’t see that.

        • wassointeresting
          July 12, 2013 at 11:23 AM

          I’m multitasking right now so can’t confirm times, sorry….

  47. July 12, 2013 at 9:33 AM

    “Makes sense” to go to retreat view circle for what?

  48. July 12, 2013 at 9:38 AM

    What about the phone and ear phones by Trayvon’s body? Who assaults someone with their phone on?

    Yes please explain, explain why Trayvon is kneeling beside GZ bashing his head and not straddling him like he claimed, pinning his arms down so he couldn’t defend himself, and so that he had to “shimmy” out from underneath and could not just roll over and away… Oh, yes I forgot, Georgie couldn’t get the gun out like that… both defence atties, defence’s forensic and their animator decided that !

  49. July 12, 2013 at 10:19 AM

    1h 20 mins all he’s basically talked about is “reasonable doubt” without explaining eff all of Georgie’s version except snippets here and there that don’t connect any dots, less still all the dots as he continually states!

    He’s been real soft up to now, wonder if he’s gonna get tougher the last 40 mins… maybe on Rachel’s testimony.

  50. July 12, 2013 at 10:24 AM

    Yeah he did do something, even George said it HE RAN!

  51. July 12, 2013 at 10:36 AM

    Don’t say it MOM… he couldn’t accept the citizen thing because he had been refused before and probably his credit was still up the creek.. and you did say it!

  52. wassointeresting
    July 12, 2013 at 11:19 AM

    Love how O’Mara made a cut-out of TM with his hoodie on to show how much BIGGER he was than GZ.

    • wassointeresting
      July 12, 2013 at 11:21 AM

      And he said that TM had lost HALF his blood which was why he looked so skinny on the autopsy table. Hmmmm Where’d all that blood go?

      • July 12, 2013 at 11:38 AM

        Must have stayed in the thoracic cavity willis, and sorry to be crude but must have coagulated there, because if there was none, or hardly any, on the ground or his clothing, and none on GZ, then unless Mrs smith took a bloody pump (pardon the pun) where else was it to go!

      • July 12, 2013 at 11:54 AM

        I get you now, you were being ironic. I only hope the jury as you wonder… Mmmmm Where’d all that blood go?

        … and realise it obviously didn’t GO anywhere so could NOT have lowered Trayvon’s weight!

    • July 12, 2013 at 11:42 AM

      Great fun wasn’t it ! Do you think the jury will actually believe that BS? A 2D image of ·3D people. And how convenient Trayvon wore a hoodie and not a more fitted jacket like GZ’s! It fills even the gaps under the arms, leaves no neck, and makes bulk generally, so making him look more ominous than he was… what effing punks the defence are!

  53. July 12, 2013 at 11:36 AM

    I am so upset, livid, furious… why did the state leave it unclear that there is more than one voice on the tape, one yelling “help” or “help me”, 4 or 5 times, 2 or 3 I can distinguish very clearly myself, and which could be, even probably if you like, all or in part GZ’s, and then there is another voice, a breaking pitching voice, once screaming, shrieking, howling in agony, in excruciating pain. It is clearly audible. It even came up several times in the trial the difference about the voice screaming and the calls for help. Eloise noted them both, MOM even said the first time “the voices in the background”, only to immediately correct it to “the voice in the background”. The State also mentions it in passing a couple of times but never fixed on it.

    Now, having a few punches or even having your head impacting on the pavement a few times, or having your nose and mouth smothered, doesn’t cause a person to shriek like that. What is more it is physically impossible without there also being muffled sounds when being smothered, or sudden audible breath (grunting) exhalations as the head is punched or it jolts against the ground. The other voice shrieks, “I’m begging you”, and I think it must be the same as the screaming voice, NOT just because it breaks and sounds similar but because GZ NEVER ever said he shouted/yelled/called out/cried out/screamed anything other words than the words “help” or “help me”. He never even inferred he had done anything any more than that, and why, for what reason, wouldn’t he have said he had also made other utterances even if he didn’t remember exactly that he had said, “I’m begging you”.

    And a last point; if the blood from GZ’s nose bleed was going down his throat (it didn’t go down his traquea because he wouldn’t have been able to scream he would have been coughing and choking, and we don’t hear anything like that), his screams would have been at very least gurgled, and at very least at some point, and even if we couldn’t hear him gurgle or a splutter, and even if only by way of a very fine air spray, some blood would have, no it must have, sprayed onto Trayvon’s hoodie. I rest my case!

    • July 12, 2013 at 12:02 PM

      Forgot to add before resting, that the only reason possible, imo, for shrieks and howls and long agonised screams like on the tape, are because of deep excruciating pain to muscle masses and tendons etc., and imo the only possible conclusion having seen a police video of the cops applying an arm lock to subdue a detainee who was resisting arrest, is GZ must have learnt at least a couple of wrist, arm, shoulder, or thigh locks, at Koko’s gym and was applying one to Trayvon. It certainly can’t have been the other way round because GZ never said Trayvon was applying a lock to him… or could he have forgotten that too!

  54. July 12, 2013 at 11:43 AM

    I can’t believe this… like whonoze said, the defence has brought the paving with them !

  55. July 12, 2013 at 11:46 AM

    No, you effing punk, Trayvon would have been able to tell HIS story had he lived!

  56. July 12, 2013 at 1:54 PM

    OK. So it goes to the jury. Predictions anyone?

    • ada4750
      July 12, 2013 at 1:57 PM

      I wait for the JN instructions.

    • July 12, 2013 at 2:28 PM

      Hmmmm… so difficult. I want to hope but I don’t want to be devastated.

      As the “evidence” stands, or doesn’t, and the State having such a high burden, without a jury that choses to take all the time they need to ponder all these disconnected bits and pieces of “evidence”, disentangle the contradictions in GZ story, I fear this POS walks, but I would be hoping desperately, that he will at very least be found guilty of manslaughter, and the verdict did come in at M2, I would consider it my this year’s Bday and Xmas presents and I wouldn’t ask for more.

      • July 12, 2013 at 2:35 PM

        erratas (the most obvious):

        a. “…and disentangle…”

        b. “…and if the verdict did come in at M2,…”

    • ada4750
      July 12, 2013 at 2:47 PM

      Boy, she speaks so fast. I did not hear JN mention the notion of initial aggressor which is essential. Only self-defense is not allowed after illegal acts, I am afraid that the jury will decide that GZ was wrong but not illegal in his pursue.

      Fast verdict (before sunday), not guilty. Long verdict, 50-50.

      I think it will be not guilty. I hope so much to be wrong. But if i am not, we will see GZ again on trial and this time i think he will have to testify.

      Here is my assessment that is not worth much anyway.

    • ada4750
      July 12, 2013 at 3:00 PM

      I mean i always thought that if someone is the initial aggressor (with the largest meaning) then the self-defense standard for that person is raised. And so even is that person did nothing literally illegal. GZ was the initial aggressor. Is this has an effect or not for the justification of self-defense? From what i heard of the instructions, i am not sure.

  57. wassointeresting
    July 12, 2013 at 2:57 PM

    I had to run out before the end of O’Mara’s statement and completely missed the state’s rebuttal. I take it there were no additional bombshells today? I came back in time to see Judge Nelson read the jury instructions. GZ looked awfully worried.

    • July 12, 2013 at 3:09 PM

      John Guy had a powerful closing, but mostly emotional in tone. No bombshells but he did stress very strongly that the “TM doubled back/circled the car” statement was a clear LIE and he said the “one is dead and the other is a liar” thing very well.

      Some tweeted that a juror was wiping away a tear or two. MOM stood up and objected, a no-class move in closings just to break the momentum he’d been riding.

      He also pointed out that GZ’s hand drawn map did not match the walk thur in the place where he first said he saw the teen. BUt he didnt get into it, or play the video. He just showed the singleton map.

      Of course he didn’t outline the car to pedestrian chase or the trolling the mail kiosk or the “never parked in the clubhouse lot” business.

      His gotcha moment was when he told the jury that no matter what the defense says, Trayvon Martin was no piece of cardboard.

      As closings go it was very powerful.

    • July 12, 2013 at 3:33 PM

      Guy did finally hit some of the stopwatch-and-geography stuff. The lasting image I took away from his closing was the PowerPoint screen with nothing but a large “2:01” on it: the time between the end of GZ’s NEN call and the start of the confrontation, when by GZ’s re-enactment he was only 10 seconds from the T at the time he ended the NEN call. Guy was also good on the ‘GZ could not have reached his gun if TM had been straddling him’ argument, which strikes me as the lynchpin of any conclusion the jury might make that the shooting was NOT self-defense BRD. He also presented a persuasive account not just of how Zimmerman lied, but how his lies evolved and grew over time as he had to continually add new elements of justification to his story, picking up on the grounds BDLR had laid down earlier.

      Before Guy’s rebuttal, I would have said I don’t know what the verdict will be, but an acquittal wouldn’t have surprised me in the least. Now, after the rebuttal, I still don’t know what the verdict will be but I will be at least somewhat surprised if GZ is acquitted. Hung jury, maybe. Guilty verdict quite possible. But I wouldn’t bet on anything…

      • wassointeresting
        July 12, 2013 at 3:57 PM

        Thanks Whonoze and Willis. I just got a chance to watch Guy’s rebuttal on youtube. FINALLY! I was quite satisfied with it. He only used the one “dark and rainy night” line again that I thought was corny, but the rest of his argument was compelling. I must say he has the southern preacher charm going on there. I’m glad now that he did the closing. Before, I had thought that Mantai would have been better, but I think the women would have just gotten irritated with his attitude. Yes, I thought his outline of GZ’s lies were coherent, and the jury didn’t have to feel like they were being jerked around by standup comics throwing out sarcastic remarks. Yes, along with pointing out the 2:01 minutes that GZ had, I think Guy pointed out for the first time (as far as I know) in this trial that TM likely didn’t want to bring home a potential predator where a younger kid was. Yep, he didn’t let it stick that the defense’s suggestion that TM didn’t go home was evidence of his being up to no good and planning for an attack. And yes, that circling of the car. I really wished though, he would have just illustrated for them on the chart to guide them on the impossibilty of it instead of saying, oh you line it up yourselves. Right. I did like how he said for them to jump on each other and try to act out the getting to the gun move. I’d love to be a fly on the wall in the jury room when they try to do that.

    • July 12, 2013 at 4:08 PM

      You have to watch it WSI. One word comes to me: Powerful.

      The prosecution team structures the rebuttal around a 2 simple concepts:
      1) The kid was just minding his own business and did not have to die on that night,
      2) We now owe him the truth but GZ lied instead.

      It was simple and beautifully delivered. John Guy pushed either of those two points in every single sentence and with a strong emotional ton.

      • July 12, 2013 at 4:15 PM

        Actually, concerning the 1st point, I should have wrote:
        The kid was just minding his own business but GZ decided otherwise.

        I believe, this is closer to my understanding of the argument.

      • ada4750
        July 12, 2013 at 4:37 PM

        Mea culpa, mea culpa. I made a judgement before i see all Guy rebuttal. I missed more than the half because it started faster than i thought. Very well done indeed.

        He mentioned 2 mins delay for GZ, That was after his NEN call. But his available searching time was more then 3 mins.

        What an impact the Club House would have made.


        That’s it for me. So long folks. And a very big , a huge thanks to all of you.

      • wassointeresting
        July 12, 2013 at 5:04 PM

        Thanks tchoupi. I did watch it. I had mentioned above some points that I thought Guy could have gotten into better, but as you say, it was an powerful and emotional delivery. I guess there’s a tradeoff between getting all the details in or getting your main messages through. Today was not the day to get technical. So I see now that BDLR’s seemingly round about way of rehashing all the details again was setting the stage for this final impression. The jury is instructed not to decide based on emotions, but really, (almost) everybody has to be affected emotionally on way or the other about this case.

  58. July 12, 2013 at 5:35 PM

    I’m bummed nobody tried to decode BdlRCS: The Bernie de la Rionda Cheerleading Squad.

    • wassointeresting
      July 12, 2013 at 5:47 PM

      Hey, it took me a day or two to realize the Leatherman people had adopted “CAC” (per Rachael’s testimony) as their new name for “fogen”, and that it was pronounced like a cat coughing up hair or something like that according to Aussie.

  59. July 12, 2013 at 6:11 PM


    I’m not as sanguine about the blogosphere as a source of more-detailed and better-vetted information than the MSM. Hell yeah, I think the extended BCCList group did awesome work, but really, how many people have participated and how many other people have we reached? Yeah, there’s some great stuff a few clicks away from anyone making an inquiry, but they have to know which links to click out of an overwhelming host of choices. Anyone approaching the Martin/Zimmerman webopshere without a guidemap is likely to get lost in an avalanche of BS from all perspectives. The signal-to-noise ratio is just too low. Take FLLB comments for example. It’s mostly emotional venting, with a little analysis, and there are far more folks even there who get the basic facts wrong than get them right. LLMPapa has done some great stuff, evidence-wise, but anyone who wanders into his channel would be hard pressed to find it among the substance-free editorializing. YouTube has much more reach than the blogs: the security camera video has 53,116 views. But it’s hardly a forum for crowd-sourcing and peer review. The comments thread under the security video is basically just more noise, and I had to close it because I got tired of deleting multiple shots of vile hate speech daily. (The one I’ll always remember, “The porch monkey should of stayed on his porch.” Believe it or not, though, that was one of the mild ones.) And then there’s Trent…

    The click-clack is Zimmerman’s gun! The click-clack is Zimmerman knocking on John/Jeremy’s door! You can hear GZ whispering to a silent co-conspirator on the NEN call! There’s a face in the window on the security vids! A platoon of KKK ninjas was lying in wait for Trayvon! In NMLE’s immortal words, arguing with Zimmerman supporters is a waste of time. But alas, only slightly less futile is trying to get Martin supporters off their baseless conspiracy theories. (And I’ll admit that I seem to have been quite wrong about manipulation on the Manolo blood trail photo… but I’m not conceding anything on Wagner yet!)

    For all the hype about new media, the true pearls in the blogosphere don’t amount in toto to that much more than was available in the alternative media of the past: independent newspapers, small circulation magazines, community radio etc. The bar to entry is lower now, which is both a good and bad thing.

    Look, I don’t want to be a total killjoy, and I take your points about having to deal with reality as it is, always trying to find the pearls, always trying to cultivate more pearls, etc. As Joe Hill said, “Don’t mourn. Organize!” But holding on to our utopian hopes for the future, and trying to tie our small concrete actions tomorrow on our ideals, we still need a realistic view of the terrain today.

    **end sermon**

  60. Gracie
    July 12, 2013 at 7:09 PM

    I didn’t get to hear all the arguments today so I’ll have to listen to them tonight. Who had the better argument?

    I just hope the jury looks at all the evidence and then votes to convict because this wasn’t self defense.

    • wassointeresting
      July 12, 2013 at 7:41 PM

      Watch Guy’s closing/rebuttal. He could get his own TV show after this.

      The jury apparently asked for a list of all the evidence before retiring from deliberation for the night. I think they’re gonna spend some time deciphering some things. It’s gonna be a long weekend I think.

      • Gracie
        July 12, 2013 at 7:49 PM

        I wonder how many of those women on the jury will think about the precedent they will set when they either convict or acquit him? That alone makes me think they will go for conviction. No one wants armed strangers following kids.

  61. desmalone
    July 12, 2013 at 7:23 PM

    Trayvon Martin was face down in the grass. But Zimmerman’s blood was not on the back of Trayvon’s clothing. It was in the front on both shirts. The photos of Zimmerman’s bleeding injuries show blood flow paths straight down from the wound, and then a direction change to outward toward the lower jaw, cheek, and ear. The nosebleed photo shows the blood all pooled and collected in the center of the mouth and upperlip with a smear to the side.

    Liquid, like everything else, will fall toward the center of gravity. The downward paths on his head show his head position was upright long enough for gravity to pull the blood down. If he was on his back in the grass getting his head bashed in repeatedly, there would be scrapes and smears of blood all over that area. It’s otherwise clean save but the initial downward pattern, so he was not on his back in the grass when the blood was flowing. He was upright.

    Position face up first, head bashing next, skin injury third, blood flow. That’s the order.

    He claims they’re rolling around in the struggle but the injury and blood path do not support that at all. His head is upright by the time the blood if flowing from the injury and is not impacting a flat surface from that point.

    The same blood streaks suddenly change direction, flowing then toward the center of gravity. Had he been on his back, face up, the blood streak paths would be straight down, collecting at the curve of the skull, splattered, and dropping into the grass. Instead, it flows toward his front, so his head, AFTER the injury is inflicted and AFTER the blood begins to drain from the wound, and AFTER he is already upright, tilts his head and face down and forward, which he can’t do if he’s on his back in the grass.

    These show that Zimmerman was on top, or upright.

    Given that drops of Zimmerman’s blood is on the front of Trayvon’s clothing, and the streak paths of blood show he had to have been looking down long enough for the blood to be pulled that direction (toward the front of him from behind), and drop off onto the front of Trayvon, then it’s pretty clear Trayvon was on his back in the grass at some point, with Zimmerman on top of him, facing him, looking down at him, and it was long enough for that piddly amount of blood to drip on down and roll toward his neck, jaw, ears, and drop off onto the front of Trayvon…completely negating in full the whole notion of self defense.

    Zimmerman was the aggressor all along, his entire agenda was to keep the suspect on ice til the cops came, he kept chasing Trayvon even when he said okay (the wind noise continues on so he didn’t stop), he confronted Trayvon who’d asked why Zimmerman was following him, Zimmerman sidestepped that and questioned Trayvon about what he’s doing there. The bump and struggle heard by Trayvon’s friend was Trayvon, freaked about this guy following him, brushing him off and probably making an attempt to leave.

    Zimmerman wasn’t going to let him leave because he’d called the cops for a reason – suspicious black guy up to no good, and they always get away, the cops put them back on the street, etc. so his entire agenda to pursue crime fighting was his solution, he’d handle it himself since he had little faith in cops. He didn’t want to be a cop because he praised cops, he wanted to be one because he didn’t think the cops could effectively do their damn jobs…so he wanted to…and he pursued Trayvon, confronted Trayvon, and proceeded to try to detain Trayvon so he could hand him off to the cops. That’s what he was doing in real life. He’d already invested in calling to begin with and getting out to follow the kid, and follows on when he’s acknowledged the kid took off running (these assholes always get away).

    Trayvon is hollering get off, get off.

    Do we really presume that the second the phone disconnects and 911 calls end that suddenly the kid running from Zimmerman turned into a gangsta wannabe from the hood, and Zimmerman transformed his agenda to pursue the shady criminal asshole into just blowing it off and going back to his truck to wait on cops?

    No, he tried to keep Trayvon there because he’d already called the cops, he wanted things to be done this time, so this kid took off running, he’s got his gun and he’s not letting him go.

    Trayvon is fending off Zimmerman.

    Trayvon is on the ground on his back with Zimmerman on top facing him.

    Trayvon is the one fearfully crying out for help…and when Zimmerman figures out this kid has skittles and tea, and he’s assaulted him, he’s in the wrong, the cops are en route and it’s his ass on the line, Zimmerman shoved the gun in Trayvon’s chest and shot him dead in cold blood…rolls him face down and moves away.

    That’s what happened.

  62. desmalone
    July 12, 2013 at 7:35 PM

    Regarding a rebuttal to the blood injury on Zimmerman’s head, it could be suggested that those photos were taken later and the injury is still bleeding, or it’s fresh blood after a cleaning. That, however, would pose a big problem for the repeated skull against concrete sidewalk bashing if the blood is after the entire event. It would show that either Zimmerman’s head never impacted the sidewalk to begin with, to any degree to cause a wound that would bleed, or the injury was so minor it can’t possibly be perceived as life threatening…and my wager would be Zimmerman didn’t even know he had a head scrape until somebody pointed it out to him.

    • 2dogsonly
      May 7, 2014 at 2:48 PM

      Remember, he asked Manola if he was bleeding. You are right, he didn’t know if his self inflected gun against his own fat head had actually been successful

  63. wassointeresting
    July 13, 2013 at 2:02 AM

    Just had a random thought. The jurors are only allowed to have actual items entered into evidence plus some documents that the state or defense have prepared such as timelines. I wonder if they are given a map of the neighborhood that they can easily measure distances if they wanted to reconstruct the physically impossible circling of the truck that Guy suggested that they do by listening to the nen call and watching the re-enactment. The only maps I had seen were the aerial google map photo, GZ’s map he scribbled on and that cartoon of the houses surrounding the “T” (but without the rest of the neighborhood). I just don’t really have any faith that they’re going to spend much time on that point without having been guided through it by the state. BDLR could easily have spent just 5-10 minutes on it in his closing.

  64. Gracie
    July 13, 2013 at 3:17 PM

    Who else is waiting for a verdict? Does anyone else wonder how George’s demeanor is affecting the jury? He showed absolutely no remorse during the trial and I thought that was bad.

  65. Gracie
    July 13, 2013 at 4:58 PM

    All of this “It’s not illegal to follow” nonsense… It’s not illegal to lean over the front of Justin Bieber’s car and take photographs through the windshield either — but if JB starts up the car and you get hurt, it’s not JB’s fault — it’s yours.

    Some of this stuff is just common sense. Too bad there isn’t just a “Felony Stupidity” law that they could have charged GZ with.

    • wassointeresting
      July 13, 2013 at 5:57 PM

      I don’t think any defendant can “act” the way someone thinks they should act in a courtroom. If he smiles, people think he’s not taking this seriously. If he frowns, people will think he’s mean. If he shows any emotion, someone will think he’s feeling guilty. Just can’t win. Probably why he’s been trying to keep stonefaced this whole trial.

      Regarding the “following issue” and by extension how that relates to self-defense, I’m sure it is not an easy task for the jury to parse it out. The defense lawyers keep saying it doesn’t matter what led up to it, if at the moment he shot his gun, if he reasonably felt in fear for his life, then it was justified. What is “reasonable”? They can’t ignore the surrounding circumstances, can they? As a silly analogy, let’s say GZ thought people who wear buttons on their shirts are part of a satanic cult who steal children at night. So he sees TM and profiles him on that basis. Everything else happens as we know it (or think we know it), and he ends up shooting TM. So GZ may well be in fear for his life, but is the basis for his fear “reasonable”? Is walking in the rain looking about a “more reasonable” basis for being dangerous than wearing a button?

  66. wassointeresting
    July 13, 2013 at 5:57 PM

    The jury is asking for claification on the instructions regarding manslaughter. GZ must be sweating if he’s hearing this right now.

    • Gracie
      July 13, 2013 at 6:23 PM

      GZ is flopping his tie and straightening his lapels… I’m pretty sure he still thinks he’s going to walk.

      I’m anxious for a verdict. I’m tired of this case but I’m anxious for an outcome.

      • wassointeresting
        July 13, 2013 at 6:58 PM

        Geez, this is going to be a long process. It took them an hour to agree just to say essentially “we can’t engage in a general discussion but will answer specific questions.”

    • July 13, 2013 at 6:59 PM

      Thnx wsi… that’s at least encouraging.

      • wassointeresting
        July 13, 2013 at 7:22 PM

        Despite my intense interest in this case over the past year, I want to be on the record that I don’t hope for a conviction nor do I hope for an acquittal. What does that mean? It’s not my place to wish someone else’s fate. I had always just wanted to know the truth and may never get it. This trial has done little to enlighten me on what went down in those missing minutes, and the only person who knows, GZ, will never own up to it.

        • July 13, 2013 at 9:46 PM

          I can understand that perfectly. It’s not healthy to wish for certain things.

          As for the missing minutes I agree that we’ll never know. Thats why I keep saying “many things are possible, what GZ claims happened ins’t possible.” But what’s “not possible” is the stuff over at the clubhouse. He’s a liar, so even if he confesses we’ll not know.

        • wassointeresting
          July 13, 2013 at 9:57 PM

          Verdicts coming!

        • July 13, 2013 at 10:29 PM

          Noted wsi and now willis. I think I understand what you mean, and agree, but I don’t think it is a matter of “wishing” someone else’s fate, at least from my side or that of many others.

          My belief is that we chose our own fate albeit within a given set of circumstances that are changing throughout our life, and that because we live in society, and because not all humans have understood the basics of coexistence whereby my liberty ends at the point where yours begins, then the best we have to date in the democratic world, (and I have no illusions about democracy, either which imo is just another system to control the less fortunate while the most fortunate do what they want) are laws all of us must abide by, and he who choses to contravene them has to comply with what those laws dictate as punishment.

          Therefore, and I could be fooling myself, because I believe I know at least part of what happened, or to put it correctly, that this tragedy could not have happened as GZ claimed it did, and I am only referring to huge holes in his story near the end of the tragedy, for which I, unlike Jeralyn, others, and the jury that just sat, can find no reasonable doubt as to whether he is lying, I believe that for us as a society to at least try to be what we all should aspire to, a society that protects as many as it can from harm, and even more especially children, the elderly, the infirm and the mentally impaired, the most vulnerable and therefore the most in need of protection from us all, so that when a another wrongly takes a life, imo there must be some punishment, not in revenge but to avoid losing more lives, both those of future killers who could chose a similar fate, as well as the future dead.

  67. wassointeresting
    July 13, 2013 at 10:00 PM

    GZ found not guilty. That’s all folks.

  68. Gracie
    July 13, 2013 at 10:02 PM

    Florida justice. I’m disappointed but not surprised.

  69. July 13, 2013 at 10:24 PM

    The state failed to connect the dots. They never presented the essential truths of the events of the evening in a coherent manner. It was theirs to lose, and they lost it.

    I don’t blame the SPD, or the jury or the defense’s tricks even. I blame the prosecution team.

    • July 13, 2013 at 10:39 PM

      Referring to your comment above which does not have a reply button,

      But what’s “not possible” is the stuff over at the clubhouse.

      EVEN the defence, their forensic expert, and their animator, all agreed that it was not possible for GZ to have drawn his gun with Trayvon straddling him as he claimed, which was why their animation placed Trayvon on one side of GZ at the moment he draws his gun. And imo there are other impossibilities to do with the encounter, but not worth going through now.

    • July 13, 2013 at 10:41 PM

      I agree. The connecting the dots on the things they needed to jury to focus on for the *law* was not done. The closest they got was the rebuttal-and that focused on emotion more than the legal side.

      When BDLR kept saying ‘you decide…’ in his closing arguments, I kept wanting him to just tell them how it was!

      This was the best they got? After a year+?

      • July 14, 2013 at 12:33 AM

        Don West and MOM spoke DOWN to the jurors. BDLR and Matei and Guy all treated them as intellectual equals on some levels. I just don’t know. I would have thought that was the right tone to strike. Perhaps they should have browbeat them about the law, but the law wasn’t really on their sides.

        A man chased a kid into a dark alley and killed him with almost no witnesses. How does one prove what happened in those moments?

        It seems they did browbeat them about the emotional issues, or at least make some good emotional appeals.

        I am so stunned I can’t fathom what the jury actually said or felt. I’m still concentrating on the facts that bloggers knew about the case. From the jury’s POV there is so much they never heard, and so much they had presented to them but wasn’t explained well or outlines.

        The inconsistencies of his statements to SPD were not minor, but the state didn’t lead with that and if they had a bad time with Serino and SIngleton then they should have moved on to an investigator from the SPD it seems to logically outline the lies and the pattern they formed. To me that was their majpr flaw.

        They also IMO placed too much weight on the “who cried” instead of the “who lied” part.

        • amsterdam1234
          July 14, 2013 at 5:00 AM

          Guy should have jumped up, when O’Mara was reading the jury’s instructions and was explaining them. O’Ara did when Guy tried to do the same, and JN sustained the objection.

        • Gracie
          July 14, 2013 at 1:51 PM

          I totally agree with you on the emphasis of “who cried” versus “who lied.” GZ lied throughout this whole thing and the prosecutors failed to connect the dots.

          How does an unarmed 17-year-old coming home from the store end up dead behind some townhomes?

          Also, I think overcharging on this case really hurt the prosecution.

    • July 13, 2013 at 10:47 PM

      Oh, I forgot to reply to your comment here.

      I absolutely agree with you about the state’s case, except in part SPD who imo did seem to make a cock up of some of the investigation, not connecting several glaring dots they had either, but to give them their due they were still investigating when Corey’s team took over, so who knows if they would have got it together in the end. I can only say that it took TPD 4 or 5 months to arrest and charge Cordel Jude, the black killer of the white learning impaired adult, and that case was a lot lot clearer in my point of view.

      • July 14, 2013 at 12:48 AM

        I have a hunch there was some sort of a turf war between the SPD and the SA’s office/ FDLE. The summary of the debriefing of Serino has always struck me as odd.

        Certainly his appearance in court was striking. SOMETHING was off.

        When Serino pointed OFF the white map of Bernie’s and said “as far as I’m concerned the incident started over there” (presumably meaning by the clubhouse) I got chills down my spine.

        Serino is the dark chewy CENTER of this case from an investigative angle. He KNOWS things he is NOT revealing and it MAY be as simple as that he was never asked.

        Racheal Jeantel knew that GZ chased TM with his car before chasing him on foot. SHE WAS NEVER ASKED about this specifically in BDLR;s deposition. It took Don West to mention it on cross before it ever came into the trial. I was flabbergasted.

        We’ve heard that Serino told a resident/witness that he didn’t believe GZ. Yet in court he says he did. Big time gap there, but he said the didn’t believe part FIRST if we can trust that hearsay report.

        I’ll likely repeat all of this many times and many ways. Still putting it together in my head. apologies in advance for repeating myself.

        • amsterdam1234
          July 14, 2013 at 4:50 AM

          BdlR never asked her where she thought Trayvon was, when he first noticed GZ. Never asked her to combine that with the hung up call at 6:54.
          They didn’t use all the eye witnesses, that squarly put John back into his house long before the shot was fired.
          They didn’t lit a fire under John’s ass.
          Selena Bahadoor didn’t see Trayvon’s body, when she looked outside, she saw GZ on top of Trayvon. The downward slope of the grassy area, and the angle from where she was watching, blocked Trayvon from her view. They could’ve used that in combination with Austin only seeing one person wearing a red top, as proof GZ was on top before the shot was fired.

          Why the fuck did they concede that Trayvon was on top, when GZ fired the gun, they nullified all their witnesses who stated otherwise, by doing this.

          I think they didn’t use the misallignment of the bulletholes, because it was not on the Shi Ping Bao’s report. Bao’s office fucked up, but if they argued that he missed that, it would’ve invalidated everything else on his report.

          I say we get organized and get ready to support Crump in the civil suit. Crump can go after the SPD and the DA’s office.

    • wassointeresting
      July 13, 2013 at 10:54 PM

      A reporter said that the jurors did not even look at GZ when they came in. Usually, jurors avoid eye contact with a defendant if they’re gonna convict. In this case, I imagine that they know he’s a liar, but they can’t convict based on a hunch. So they tried their best to figure out if they were presented with evidence that would fit with even manslaughter (hence their question). But in the end, they didn’t get the dots connected for them. Sixteen hours is NOTHING compared to the amount of hours you guys put in through crowdsourcing, so we can’t expect them (the jury) to connect the dots themselves.

      • July 14, 2013 at 12:50 AM

        great, another mystery that wont be solved anytime soon. Thanks for letting me know about this. It’s likely a good clue.

  70. July 13, 2013 at 10:41 PM

    this is a song by a friend of mine. The chorus is “floirda, florida, there’s no more pathetic place in america.”

  71. July 14, 2013 at 2:50 AM

    intelligent editorial

    main point:

    To me, on its most basic level, the startling Zimmerman verdict — and the case and trial that preceded it — is above all a blunt reminder of the limitations of our justice system. Criminal trials are not searches for the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. They never have been. Our rules of evidence and the Bill of Rights preclude it. Our trials are instead tests of only that limited evidence a judge declares fit to be shared with jurors, who in turn are then admonished daily, hourly even, not to look beyond the corners of what they’ve seen or heard in court.

  72. July 14, 2013 at 3:46 AM

    another friend’s song about that SHITHOLE state. pardon my french.

  73. nemerinys
    July 14, 2013 at 4:37 AM

    I’m heartbroken – and mad as hell. I can’t dismiss racism and white privilege on the part of the jury, but I also can’t forgive the prosecutors for failing to present a tight, confident case.

    Anyway… I have a couple of questions I desperately hope someone here can answer.

    Dale Gilbreath, one of the SAO investigators who took the stand during Zimmerman’s first bail hearing, stated “We have Mr. Zimmerman’s statements, we have the shell casings, and we had Mr. Martin’s body.”

    Does anyone here have any idea why the State didn’t discuss the location of the shell casing? And what would it have proved?

    And, concerning the bullet trajectory into Trayvon, I know that some people have argued that the shot could only have been done if both Trayvon and Zimmerman were upright, but is it all possible that Trayvon was on top leaning over Zimmerman when the bullet entered his body straight on?

    Don’t get me wrong – I don’t believe Trayvon was leaning over; I believe he was leaning back, trying to get away while Zimmerman was gripping his clothing. I just want to know if what pro-Zimmerman people have argued, that Trayvon was still leaning over Zimmerman, could have been possible.

    • amsterdam1234
      July 14, 2013 at 5:09 AM

      The defense used De Maio to proof there was space between the clothes and the skin, when the bullet was fired. When BdlR said to him, it could’ve been GZ grabbing Trayvon’s clothes, De Maio said that for that to occur, there should have been a misallignment between the holes in the shirt and the bullet hole in Trayvon’s chest. We all know the misallignment existed. I suspect the ME missed it. For the prosecution to use it, they would’ve had to show, the ME screwed up. But they could’ve offered an argument that GZ grabbed Trayvon at the neck line.

      They screwed up, they should’ve offered their theory of what happened.

      • nemerinys
        July 14, 2013 at 3:41 PM

        Hi amsterdam – Would it have been more appropriate for the State to use an FDLE or SAO investigator to make the connection between the misaligned holes? I don’t know if the ME usually examines the clothing and makes a note of these kinds of contradictions.

        I don’t think the ME screwed up, but I do think he – as with Rachel Jeantel – should have been better prepared beforehand. For example, don’t bring any personal notes or mention a change of mind because of something you learned during another case after the autopsy. These things provided a hole for the defense to break through, and make the ME appear clueless and incompetent.

        • amsterdam1234
          July 14, 2013 at 4:30 PM

          I don’t know if the ME normally notes that on his report. The ME is the last person who would see the body, with its clothes on. So it makes sense, that it should’ve been part of the report. I noticed De Maio’s eyes lighting up, when he told BdlR “I’ve told you before, there was no misalignment”. If you use LLMPAPA’s method, there is an obvious misalignment. De Maio wasn’t present at the autopsy and he never saw the body. The only way for him to have concluded that there was no misalignment, must have been because it was not mentioned in the ME report.

          Something went wrong with the procedures around handeling Trayvon’s clothing. They way they were bagged show they weren’t handeled the way they should’ve.
          The prosecution was stuck, knowingly or unknowingly with forensics that could only be explained with Trayvon leaning over GZ. I think they could have made an argument that GZ grabbed Trayvon at the neckline. I don’t think that is what happened, but it would’ve given them another explanation without having to admit Shipping Bao screwed up some more.

          I am not hitting on Bao, I am just trying to understand why the prosecution conceded to Trayvon as the person on top.
          They had 3 eyewitnesses that all said GZ was on top at the time of the shooting, why concede that, just because one guy, who only watched for 8 to 10 seconds, places Trayvon on top?

          I’ll never forgive them for that.

    • July 14, 2013 at 12:48 PM

      regarding the location of the body: the shell casing was found underneath it, after the body was removed by using a metal detector. There’s no real way to know if the casing was ejected there first or moved b/s it was trapped in folds of either person’s clothing somehow.

      The body was some 40 feet south of where GZ claimed he was struck, suckerpunched to the ground. The story as told and written by GZ was ALWAYS that he fell to the ground immediately – fell BACKWARDS usually – but the idea that he stumbled so far was not part of the equation until the very last time he presented the false narrative, when he was at the scene and IMO realized his story needed modification. So he added the stumbling, during which he has no real explanation for what he’s done with this hands or how he passed directly the position where he was truck from and the person who allegedly struck him. In his “re-creation” he moves less then HALF the actual distance he would have were it true. The distance he would need to actually stumble is that equal to a baseball batter moving from home plate to the base of the pitcher’s mound.

      Needless to say the jury heard none of this from the prosecution.

      As for what Gilbreath said – and he was never called to the stand during the trial, inexplicably and seemingly at devastating cost to the state’s case and the jury’s ability to view the case from a investigator’s skeptical standpoint I assume he merely mean that the shell casing could be tied to the gun owner and that the lead bullet from it was inside the dead body. As for the comment about the statements, that they are contradictory, inconsistent and self-serving the State went about 40% as far as I would have liked in explaining that to the jurors.

      I feel the bullet trajectory was neither here nor there. Many things are possible.

      But the scenario that GZ was trying to detain the teen is something that could have and should have been advanced further at trial IMO.

      • nemerinys
        July 14, 2013 at 3:57 PM

        Thank you, willisnewton. I strongly agree with you that the State should have used the FDLE and/or SAO investigators who worked on the case. Frankly, I would not have put either Singleton or Serino on the stand; the SPD investigation was too compromised. But, the FDLE had done its own investigation, and it would have been far more appropriate to get their testimony.

        As for the shell casing, I was reminded of Gilbreath’s statement from this site I came across a long time ago. The casing was found vertically embedded into the ground. The blog writer continues with the “they must have been standing” argument, but his diagrams have some merit.

  74. July 14, 2013 at 9:49 AM

    Hi nemerinys, long time no read, not even at the lounge.

    I agree, a 5-1 white, almost entirely middle aged to elderly, middle class jury, the only “outsider”, a Hispanic with 8 kids, sole parent and breadwinner, who imo should have been released on hardship if only because she would need to be home asap, was imo very ominous, more so with studies noting 85% of cases won or lost at jury selection!

    I never saw the hidden meaning in Gilbreath’s statement, only that it proved it was GZ’s gun. IMO unless in an absurd location, I would think it impossible to affirm where a jumping shell case lands. IIRC it was found underneath Trayvon, which with GZ pouncing on him and police, EMTs and CSI turning him over more than twice, means it could have moved.

    One of LLMPapa’s most popular videos gives the standing theory, but, imo, much as I admire his good and powerful work on the case, the shooter’s arm in his drawing is too unnatural, (it’s at a 90º angle to the shoulder) to take seriously, and it flies in the face of the forensics as it would mean Trayvon standing there while GZ with two fully outstretched hands, with one pulled him by his his hoodie and with the other shot him!

    As you, I also believe GZ shot when Trayvon was trying to get away with GZ holding on in a grappling clinch trying to keep him back. The difference with the pro Zeds, they believe Trayvon was still raining down blows, smothering, and slamming GZ’s head against the concrete all at the same time, but I don’t know how they explain it considering GZ explained both that he shot to stop his head being slammed again, by then on grass, as well as that when he shot Trayvon had one hand over his mouth and the other on “the” gun!

    To me, the idea Trayvon was pulling away came after John Good’s testimony in which he described the scuffling pair moving from grass to pavement and back to grass without any change in position, i.e. Trayvon on top as if pushing or holding GZ down, which when I read amsterdam’s insightful comment about the one on the bottom could not control the movement, brought me, and many others, to conclude that the only explanation was that Trayvon was pulling up, and/or forward, and/or back so as to free himself from GZ’s hold to get away and was dragging GZ, firmly held on to him from underneath in some kind of grappling hold, weighing Trayvon down. The two types of utterances heard on the tape, GZ in his monotonous voice yelling or calling out “help/help me” several times, I hear these clearly, and the heart-wrenching visceral screams as if from deep pain, (a submission lock/hold?) fits with this scenario too (I am sure I hear a feint “let me go” on the tape” but, never said it before because I will probably be tarred as a crank!).

    Reading amsterdam’s reply, I missed a lot of De Maio’s testimony so I hadn’t realised the State didn’t try hard to clarify the misalignment. Big screw up, because, imo, it could have been caused by GZ pulling at Trayvon’s clothes from underneath as Trayvon tried to pull back or, imo, more likely scrambling forward, or up and over, which would give sufficient space for GZ’s arm and gun to get that almost central straight through shot from underneath, and it was therefore very important to try to show that Trayvon could have been trying to get away. Because, imo, Trayvon on top was a given, because even if you discarded John’s testimony as an outright lie, it was still difficult to tally Trayvon being on the bottom because GZ’s bleeding nose must have dripped at least one drop onto Trayvon’s clothes, but, from how I saw it, with so many at the lounge in denial about the possibility of Trayvon ever being on top, it was difficult to move forward and develop other theories once the mainstream of Trayvon being underneath took hold, as any others were immediately discarded and posing them often meant being tarred a troll.

    • July 14, 2013 at 11:40 AM

      Ooops, I meant: “Trayvon standing there while GZ with two fully outstretched ARMS”

    • Gracie
      July 14, 2013 at 4:16 PM

      I can’t blame it on the white middle-aged jury. I’m a white middle-aged woman and I totally believed that GZ was guilty.

      One of the problems with this case was that the gun rights guys got involved and they started muddying the waters. They don’t want to see their precious Stand Your Ground laws to change. They were the ones who contributed the most money to GZ’s defense. Did they all believe that GZ was innocent? Hell no. But it wasn’t about GZ — it was about the law.

      • July 15, 2013 at 9:00 AM

        I don’t really blame my disappointment on the jury either, Gracie, even if I moaned it was not as diverse as it could have been. I can’t even blame it on the prosecution who, imo, did not present the case very well, but was it because they did’t or couldn’t, as imo they had nothing for the the jury to convict on beyond all reasonable doubt anyway, so did they even have a case, considering the burden they needed to overcome, more especially at the moment GZ fired the shot, which, in a self defence claim, is what ultimately counts.

        Thanks to dedicated people, several of them posters on this blog, there is proof GZ lied about almost everything, and that neither pursuit, encounter, scuffle or shot happened the way he claimed, but the system works the other way round, and there wasn’t any evidence that showed beyond all reasonable doubt what actually DID happen and any doubt must fall on a defendant’s side, not least so that tomorrow it falls on mine!

        No, my “blame” would go to the system. A system that requires an impossible burden for a prosecution when from a deadly altercation one remains standing while the other lies dead. A law that permits a first response to be that of a gun, that permits the use of deadly force without requiring any need to stand down nor any real proof there was indeed a need for it.

        But how to change it ? Both US and UK systems are based on the premise, “better 10 guilty men go free than one innocent be convicted”, not least because that innocent could be you or me, so without changing the gun laws, improbable considering America’s love affair with these, I am lost as to where it goes from here except on a downward spiral with the law of the gun reigning supreme once again.

    • nemerinys
      July 14, 2013 at 4:26 PM

      Hi gbrbsbblogs! Thank you for replying. I gave up commenting at Fred’s because commenters there were quick to label someone a ‘troll’ if the person put forward, as you say, another theory, or anything that veered off the group-think. Like you, I had long ago accepted that Trayvon was on top, trying to get away, and was being held against his will with what is called a ‘pain compliance hold,’ such as a wristlock. As we all know, Zimmerman admitted to having “wrist control,” and a wristlock is definitely something he learned in his MMA training. And it’s something he could do easily with his dominant left hand against Trayvon’s dominant right hand, which would have left Trayvon utterly helpless.

      IMO, the prosecution absolutely failed with the MMA guy (and I wonder if that’s the same guy who instructed Zimmerman, or just the owner); the knowledge that Zimmerman had taken MMA lessons was a godsend, and the State blew it. Not only with this, but the State altogether failed to point out the number of times Trayvon was accused of something when it was Zimmerman who was ‘guilty’ of that something.

      Anyway, I liked this comment from another blog:

      Didn’t you listen to the MMA expert? He is too weak to spin the wheel! He’s end up shooting whoever is hosting.

      • July 15, 2013 at 10:51 AM

        I had a similar problem at the lounge, and although I still follow I have posted much less in the last months, after a couple of posters more or less inferred I was racist simply for opining that the lad refereeing a friendly boxing match on a video which didn’t go even one milimetre to proving any of the participants were violent thugs, “could be”, not was, Trayvon by the lad’s colour, height, and shape.

        I agree with you about a wrist lock, and I even go so far as to thinking that if the encounter did happen at the T as GZ claims, it may be GZ grabbed Trayvon and applied a hold on right wrist then and there to hold him for the police, and Trayvon, panicked by a man who had chased him around the Retreat, maybe punched him in the nose with his only free hand in an attempt to escape. Because imo, no right hander, sparring to pick a fight as GZ submits Trayvon was, would, where a surprise force is key to gaining advantage over a heavier person he couldn’t know wasn’t a black belt in some martial arts, would “sucker” punch with their left hand.

        And then there is GZ stumbling 40ft up the dog walk to where Trayvon finally drops his phone and after a scuffle dies with his earplugs still in his ears! Exactly what was this violent thug Trayvon doing while GZ stumbled along stunned, scrambling to keep his balance. GZ claims he was pushing Trayvon off as he stumbled along, but didn’t Trayvon manage to get even one kick or punch to GZ’s head, or body in, or simply push an already unbalanced and disorientated GZ down earlier? No, imo, more likely it was Trayvon scrambling along, trying to get away.

        And what about GZ’s torches, one found at the T one near Trayvon’s body. How did GZ look for his phone at the T to call 911 with 2 torches in his hands? I mean, did he search and pat his pockets with one in each hand, or did he hold them both in one hand while he searched with the other? But if he held both in one hand, how come only one dropped with the sucker punch? And how come he managed to hold on to the other not only when he was punched and knocked off balance, but all the time he stumbled up the dog walk scrambling to regain his balance… with a torch in one hand? And why were the torches not bought up by SPD, i.e. how did one torch come to be at the T and the other near the body?

        No, imo, GZ dropped the small torch as Trayvon struggled and punched him attempting to get away when he grabbed him at the T, but GZ hung on, and as Trayvon moved up the dog walk with GZ hanging on tight, trying to push him off and release his hold as they went, (not the other way round as GZ claims), GZ was hanging on to Trayvon with one hand, his remaining torch in the other. There are I am sure other theories of how the torches ended up in different places, but nothing else I can come up with, makes much sense to me, as I am not one for theories like GZ dropping the torch at the T after the shooting, and for a jury to buy that, imo, there would have to be clear evidence anyway.

  75. July 14, 2013 at 1:08 PM

    IMO the jury did one of two things – either they swallowed the self-defense idea or they went for the “state never proved its’ case” theory as the leading reason to vote for acquittal.

    I’m going to say the latter is more likely than the former, but that’s because they didn’t take enough time to review the statements GZ made on anything but a very superficial level. Thanks, Bernie, for failing so badly at making the case about who cried instead of who lied.

    Then somehow the majority of the jurors must have rushed to judgement with a few thoughts taken straight from the defense about reasonable doubt.

  76. Gracie
    July 14, 2013 at 1:58 PM

    The prosecution should have put more focus on when the gun came out. We all know that GZ’s story of pulling his gun out right at the very end was a complete lie. The prosecution sould have focused on the gun being out a long time before that.

    • July 14, 2013 at 2:45 PM

      No offense Gracie but I strongly disagree. What happened was that a remorseless child killer eliminated the only witness to his crime in a state where the laws are impossibly stacked in favor of such a criminal. Whatever happened in the missing minutes, only he knows. Even the testimony of RJ seemed not to move the jurors. I’m not sure how more speculation would have helped.

      Nothing about when the gun was drawn can be proven BARD. IMO what could and should have been proven BARD was every single lie the that killer told to SPD and to Sean Hannity, if only to put them into the public arena. And these provable lies should have been the focus of the prosecution. (This could have been a case about who lied, not one about who cried.)

      No one on that jury ever heard that GZ failed to EVER offer that the teen ran away from his (moving) car. He LIED about this EVERY time, and when he was finally played the tape, he was asked HOW the teen ran and had no answer. Why was this not highlighted? He’s exhibited PROVABLE ill will even before he exited his vehicle.

      The clubhouse videos showed his lies, and I doubt the jury ever even reviewed them.

      IMO the investigation failed to examine the crime in an sequential manner and then the lawyers of the prosecution failed to have the narrative to present at trial.

      But the laws are so bad that I’m not sure that would have worked.

      • July 14, 2013 at 3:20 PM

        For that matter, the State did a pathetic job of establishing the case that it was Trayvon screaming.

        1. They never commissioned expert testimony that attempted to ID the screams from a universe of two possibilities, using Trayvon voice form the cell-phone and GZ’s “help me” exemplar. They could have done this with several different experts – including people with better credentials that Owen — and made sure proper scientific controls were observed.

        2. They never called medical experts and/or voice production experts to explain that GZ could not have issued the screams recorded on the Lauer call under ANY of the following conditions:
        a; If blood was running back down his throat, (no coughing interruptions)
        b: if his mouth was being covered by TM’s hand (no muffling / change of tonal balance)
        c: if his nose was being pinched closed (change of timbre)
        d: if his head was being banged against anything (shockwave transfer to vocal cords resulting in pitch change).

        And they even muffed the ‘common sense’ argument that the screams stop at the point of the gunshot, while GZ claims he thought he missed, and was CONTINUING TO YELL FOR HELP IN RESTRAINING TM after he rolled him over.

        • nemerinys
          July 14, 2013 at 4:28 PM

          Oh, you are absolutely right, whonoze. I hadn’t thought of these things that the State should have done.

        • July 15, 2013 at 11:11 AM

          I also consider the State failed miserably with the “screams”. Many hear both verbal utterances, i.e. “help me”, as well as non verbal ones and as you note, there were physical impossibilities that could have shown it was impossible what GZ said. I noted my anger about the treatment of the screams in a post above, furious that even the State kept referring to them as “screams” without differentiating between the two different types.

          As well as some of your points, and IMBW, but I also believe that the voice, at least an untrained one, would not be able to go from piercing shrieks to a softer “help me” and back again to shrieking, etc. in such a short space of time.

  77. July 14, 2013 at 3:31 PM

    I could not sleep yesterday night after I learned what the verdict is.
    I’m still in shock even if that verdict was very likely.
    I spent sometime gathering my thoughts this morning.
    I know my English has limitations but I hope you guys can understand what I try to convey.
    This is all at the same place, at the top this time: http://imgur.com/a/bcAII

    • July 14, 2013 at 4:41 PM

      Someone else said something similar – that this should not be seen as a tragedy, but a travesty.

      My condolences especially to you tchoupi because you of all people have known for the longest about many of the lies that GZ was able to pass off to the world. You did not remain silent and you did not tarry in getting out the message.

      And trust me, the language is no barrier to your meaning. This is indeed ugly and monstrous.

  78. Gracie
    July 14, 2013 at 4:26 PM

    I wish someone would tell Robert Zimmerman Jr. that his 15-minutes are up. I’m so sick of seeing him on TV. My biggest fear is that he’s grown addicted to the fame and he’ll end up on some reality TV show.

    • July 14, 2013 at 4:37 PM

      They will.

      • Gracie
        July 14, 2013 at 5:20 PM

        I know they will and it just goes to show how sick society is.

        GZ is not going to be able to get a job so doing reality TV might provide him with money but the problem is, what show? He can’t do Big Brother because he’s too soft and weak to do the challenges. Ditto with Survivor (unless they let him take his gun, of course). He’d starve on Survivor because he’s basically helpless. Dancing with the Stars is out for the same reason (you need to be at least a little athletic to practice plus he’d never be able to lift a girl). Can he sing? Can he bake? Can he cook? Amazing Race has physical challenges too so I don’t know how he could do it (plus I think the producers are smarter than to put him on). What show could he go on? Will they create “Here comes Georgie Boo Boo” just for him?

        Frank Taffe is like Sarah Palin. He says things for shock value. He’ll probably be on FOX forever.

        • July 14, 2013 at 5:33 PM

          He will tour conservative shows whether tv or radio. He will get interviews. He will go to any kind of gathering. He will get a book written under his name. He will tour to sale it.
          Each time, he will cash in money just to talk about how gun save lifes.
          In some slices of the american public, he will be a hero and TM will be a monster. So, as long as they’ll enjoy seeing GZ pee on Trayvon’s grave, they stuff cash in his bikini.

          Is that depressing enough? yet, it had started even before the arrest.

  79. July 14, 2013 at 5:41 PM

    Instead of monday morning quarterbacking, shouldn’t we be making sure the Martin family has the collected information of this group? It seems clear now that the state never put two and two together in at least a dozen areas regarding the investigation. I’m not saying that if they had the verdict would have been different, but why take a chance?

  80. Gracie
  81. July 14, 2013 at 6:57 PM

    Some movement over at DoJ indicated.


    I’m sending a fed ex this week. Who’s in?

  82. July 14, 2013 at 7:39 PM

    shouldn’t we be making sure the Martin family has the collected information of this group?

    Of course, but how? You can bet the family and its representatives are being flooded with communications in every available channel. You can further bet that there is a subset of those communiques that offer some new “evidence” or theory — all utter BS. How does anyone penetrate the noise barrier to get the attention of anyone who might actually matter?

    • July 14, 2013 at 8:10 PM

      There are ways. Chief of which is to not give up trying.

      Also there is the DoJ. And whomever is prosecuting Shellie for perjury. Then there is the press, Al Sharpton and the NAACP. FWIW there is a fairly good angle for the right news outlet to pitch a feature article to an editor about how, you know, plucky nerds in a basement “cracked the case” but the antiquated SA’ office didn’t know a tweet from a tiddley- wink.

      Then there are sympathetic witnesses, Jose Baez, and your local FBI office, where if you walk in off the street they at least have to speak to you I’d assume and start a file.

      One route has to work. The conclusions of this loose group are nearly unassailable proof of malfeasance of some sort. Lying to the SPD is a crime we know he is guilty of.

      Arrest this man before he flees the country. Hold him on money laundering charges, I don’t care. Just don’t let this acquittal be the end of this story.

    • July 14, 2013 at 9:54 PM

      I don’t know if I should dare making that proposal but, one way may be to turn our analysis of the cctv in a peered reviewed paper. If we can get that done, the work will have a whole different stature..

      I have authored and coauthored many papers for journals and conferences. But, my field is that of physics & semiconductor engineering, not forensic. I have no idea of what the forensic journals and conferences are and what are there interests and requirements. It should not be that difficult to find out though.

      • wassointeresting
        July 14, 2013 at 10:14 PM

        A peer reviewed paper would be too obscure, assuming anyone in this group would even know how to put one together or a forensics journal or the time. However, a well designed and narrated power-point presentation, would be a better medium, and something that is common to just about every professional. Kinda like Whonoze’s final video (which was very well narrated) but not 45 minutes long or meant to run in real time. It could also assume the audience has a familiarity with the case (so definitions such as the “T” can be omitted) like the jurors at the end of the trial (and I would submit that despite sitting there for 3 weeks, they’re only just “familiar” and not really “entrenched” in the evidence), but not people who have spent a year looking at the evidence. In fact, it wouldn’t be bad to design it like a “closing argument” presentation but without all the dramatics.

        • wassointeresting
          July 14, 2013 at 10:16 PM

          correction: “…assuming anyone in this group would have the time or know how to put one together for a forensics journal.” Don’t mean to imply no one can put together a paper, but AFAIK, no one here is a forensics expert.

        • July 14, 2013 at 11:22 PM

          I agree that a publication can be too obscure for the general public. However, when you submit to a peer review conference, you have to make a ppt presentation anyhow.

      • July 14, 2013 at 11:23 PM

        I could generate an academic paper that would likely pass peer review in Media Studies or Legal Studies, but academic journals have a VERY long submission-to-publication lag: typically at least two years.

        FWIW, I tried contacting all the relevant MSNBC hosts re: the sec vid results several months ago, and received no response.

        • July 14, 2013 at 11:37 PM

          Peer review publications have a long process. In Semiconductor engineering they never lag for 2 years though. 1 year is more appropriate.

          Peer review conferences have a shorter cycle time. They are easier to get in but if accepted you got to got there and present the paper.

          In any cases, getting a peer reviewed paper would be rather powerful. Particularly when we’re not seen as experts.

      • amsterdam1234
        July 15, 2013 at 1:46 AM

        The first problem is validating the time, so that the videos can be used in court. A presentation as to how we determined the right time, may be a better way to get the attention of the attorney’s representing the Martin family.
        You could try to reach the attorney’s through their law office.

  83. July 14, 2013 at 8:21 PM

    Many things to process here and many things that may be going on – but did anyone else notice that GZ never addressed his own mother when the verdict came and he left the courtroom? Not did I ever see him turn around to give eye contact to his supporters?

    Also I heard Don West refused to shake hands with the prosecution team.

  84. July 14, 2013 at 11:23 PM

    wassointeresting :
    correction: “…assuming anyone in this group would have the time or know how to put one together for a forensics journal.” Don’t mean to imply no one can put together a paper, but AFAIK, no one here is a forensics expert.

    This is where it hurts.

    • July 14, 2013 at 11:38 PM

      On the contrary, as far as the security camera videos are concerned, between tchoupi, willis and myself we have all the technical expertise needed to decode them — no special ‘forensics’ certification is required to look at video, and from what I’ve seen during the course of the case, the people who pass as audio/video ‘forensics experts’ generally don’t know fuck-all. Nor is any special expertise required to establish most of Zimmerman’s lies in his “re-enactment”. As I told Frances Robles way back when, anyone with Google Maps, a stopwatch and a copy of the NEN call can prove GZ is ful of BS if they have the inclination and apply simple logic to the problem, neither of which the State did, really.

      Regardless of our qualifications, our findings will speak for themselves for better or worse, IF WE CAN GET ANYBODY TO LOOK AT THEM!

      I think I could have done this 30 years ago. I had some connections, some energy, some craftiness, a certain indefatigability. Now I suffer from a chronic generalized anxiety disorder, and I just can’t pull a publicity campaign out of my ass. I can send out a few more emails into the great void.

      I don’t do Twitter. Do journalists and commentators actually read the stuff people Tweet at them, or post on their Facebook pages?

      • July 15, 2013 at 12:13 AM

        I know what you mean about lacking the energy of youth. But I do know some stringers for the NYT. I was thinking of contacting an editor through them to try and get an email to the writer of the “police missteps” article if possible. He’s an investigative j. who has a pulitzer on his desk, so maybe if we could get him to take a look he would at least know where to forward the info. He’s not been writing on the case since last year. Presumably he is on to other things now, as he is a “long lead” style writer who is afforded longer period of time to prepare articles.

      • wassointeresting
        July 15, 2013 at 12:29 AM

        FWIW, I was not very impressed with the qualifications of the “experts” called to trial, So yeah, while a certification means diddly squat, it helps to get people to start listening to you, We all know that those who probably had more weight in the courtroom were the ones who could articulate themselves better, regardless of how many letters were behind their names.

    • wassointeresting
      July 15, 2013 at 12:15 AM

      Oh my dear Tchoupi, I’m sorry, I mis-wrote, I should have said ‘forensics professional’, ie who does it for a living. I’ve published peer-reviewed papers too but I wouldn’t dare try to do it outside of my field.

  85. July 14, 2013 at 11:39 PM

    note – here is the text of the statement from the DoJ. Not to be defeatist but it sounds like a stall to me. I can almost write the next installment in my head already… “after much careful consideration…”

    “Experienced federal prosecutors will determine whether the evidence reveals a prosecutable violation of any of the limited federal criminal civil rights statutes within our jurisdiction,” a Justice Department spokesman said in a statement, “and whether federal prosecution is appropriate in accordance with the department’s policy governing successive federal prosecution following a state trial.”


    • amsterdam1234
      July 15, 2013 at 5:54 AM

      I did some research. The Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr., Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 2009, does appear to give the Federal Government jurisdiction to prosecute GZ for Hate Crime.

      The newly enacted § 249 has three significant subsections. Subsection (a)(1) criminalizes violent acts (and attempts to commit violent acts undertaken with a dangerous weapon) when those acts occur because of the actual or perceived race, color, religion, or national origin of any person. This section of the statute has a broader reach than existing hate crime statutes. (18 U.S.C. § 245, for example, requires that government prove not only that the crime was motivated by animus but also because of the victim’s participation in one of six enumerated federally protected activities). Section 249(a)(1) was passed pursuant to Congress’s Thirteenth Amendment authority to eradicate badges and incidents of slavery. The government need prove no other “jurisdictional” element to obtain a conviction.

    • amsterdam1234
      July 15, 2013 at 6:04 AM

      This is their policy governing successive prosecution following a state trial.

      I think they can prosecute, if they want to. It probably depends on whether they think they have enough evidence.

      Public pressure, might make the difference. So for all you US citizens, it is definitely worth signing the NAACP’s petition.

      • July 15, 2013 at 10:49 AM

        Thanks for that amsterdam. It seems one of the grounds for a federal prosecution would be to say that the state was “incompetent” in its prosecution, or at the least “new evidence” is uncovered in the form of what RJ told Ben Crump about the car-to-pedestrian chase.

        I’d agree with the “incompetent” claim… IMO the state failed to establish to a jury that the defendant lied to the SPD in his statements regarding movements from clubhouse to cut thru area, and by so doing left out a big element of his crime- chasing the teen off the roadway with his car, which is a separate crime he might have been charged with. They also overlooked a clear crime – lying to the police – and therefor undermined their own case to an incompetent degree.

        Not to harp on it endlessly, but this case shouldn’t have been about who cried. It was about who lied. Doubling back to park facing the mail kiosk is not casually following – it’s deliberately stalking under Florida statutes when he then reversed direction AGAIN to pursue down TTL causing the teen to run away.

        It’s a slim point to argue in some regards but if the DoJ wanted to go there perhaps it would.

        There seems to be a great deal of grey area and leeway in the decision making process of whether to prosecute or not. What makes me angry is that ANY prosecutor is going to take into consideration the potential to gain a conviction on the evidence. WE HAVE THE EVIDENCE and it’s obvious the state of Florida didn’t.

        I’m no lawyer and there are several issues to consider – first, whether the family can file and win a civil suit.

        Second, whether the feds decide they can take up the case or not.

        Third, whether a federal prosecution can win on the evidence at hand.

        Not to denigrate the Professor over at Leatherman, but I’d like a highly informed legal opinion on all of these points. It’s a lot to research for even the most experienced of lawyers and in the end it’s going to be a judgement call based on a lot of factors, politics included.

  86. July 15, 2013 at 12:35 AM

    Well then, let’s try to draft a letter explaining succinctly and in inverted pyramid style what we think we have, so we can come up with a “crowd-sourced, peer-reviewed” pitch we can copy, paste and send off to as many journalists as we can find email addresses for, as well as to the Martin family attorneys, unless someone can sleuth out contact info for one of the famiy members themselves (there were various cousins and whatnot appearing in news conferences today…)

    • July 15, 2013 at 11:19 AM

      I would lead off any summary of our various and combined findings with one of two things: “GZ provably lied to SPD investigators” or else “GZ illegally stalked according to florida statutes” if the goal is to highlight the car to pedestrian chase, or, if the goal would be to highlight a possible tip off, then I’d say “alignment of clubhouse tapes with NEN call is possible proving GZ never saw TM on RVC.” In some regards it all adds up to “proof exists BARD that GZ lied to SPD and chased teen off roadway with his car.”

      Whatever strategy a prosecution team wanted to pursue is going to be their choice, and I’d be anxious about telling them how to plan a trial strategy but it does seem to me that if it were possible to prove that GZ committed a crime BEFORE he got out of his car that any self defense claim would be found moot. It’s stretch to prove BARD that the car to pedestrian chase was a civil rights violation from my research because it was NOT a pubic street but a private drive inside the RATL. Some have already opined that this is the biggest barrier to setting out a federal charge against GZ – that bit about not being a public roadway.

      Also at the least, lying to investigators is a crime in and of itself. One wonders what the penalty for that alone would be, were he to be convicted on that.

      Again speaking to prosecution strategy I’ve always felt that the doubling back on TTL by GZ is proven to have happened TWICE by the combined evidence of the Singleton Map, the NEN call timing, RJs statements to Crump, (and now in open court) and LAST but not least the clubhouse videos in approximate sync. Remove any one of those elements except the NEN call and the proof is still solid, I think. This means IMO that a prosecutor could argue a PATTERN of lies was told to SPD that establish GZ is not credible in his statements of what occurred in the missing minutes since strong circumstantial evidence corroborates the same TYPE of lies – lies of omission (what he did with his hands, ever and where he was physically for the missing time) and lies of substitution (who closed the gap, who was the initial aggressor, etc) But first and foremost, if a crime could be proven PRIOR to exiting the vehicle then that takes self defense off the table entirely and allows room to say that TM “stood his ground” and had every right to defend himself in a dark alley.

      But maybe that last part is not for us to argue. Perhaps we should only present conclusions of evidentiary facts.

      • July 15, 2013 at 12:29 PM

        Your right about, “Some have already opined that this is the biggest barrier to setting out a federal charge against GZ – that bit about not being a public roadway.” because Alan Dershowitz did just that in an interview for the BBC this morning, but he did proffer that a private prosecution OJ style would be a good option because of the lower burden.

        IMO, the main hurdle is overcoming the “reasonable fear” and the “concrete weapon” aspect, because if I read the Florida law on self defence correctly, even an aggressor can rely on deadly force if during a fight the tables are turned and they have a reasonable fear for their life or GBH. It’s the same in the UK, but with a big difference… no guns!

        Maybe, if the State had proved unequivocally that GZ lied on everything of any importance, i.e. the pursuit, the encounter, and the scuffle up to the shot, the jury would have used their discretion to disbelieve he feared for his life. I think a civil action, or private prosecution, would be a good option and having the evidence more organised and connected would be important for it.

        • July 15, 2013 at 1:01 PM

          I’m just not a lawyer, and never wanted to be one. That such an obvious liar can walk out of court a free man makes me dismiss the process as something that will forever be beyond my comprehension.

          But I’m not one to give up, either. If credibility isn’t part of a trial that lacks witnesses then I’ve gotten it all wrong and understand nothing about what juries do. And I’m not asking for clarification on a blog, either. It’s unimportant to me at this point. What I care about is making sure that the family and the press and the people know the truth about what happened that night. I’m satisfied to let the system sort it out, provided that the TRUTH is in the mix. “Garbage in, garbage out” is how I view the state’s prosecution.

          That the state failed to understand so many BASIC elements of the case astounded and confounded many on this blog. It’s as though they never took the time to go through the evidence the way we did – carefully and in toto, and with an eye to the sequence of events, not the sequence of evidence gathered.

          And if Alan Dershowitz says it, I’d start getting another opinion quickly. He’s been quite wrong so far.

          This is a typical series of events. Large data dump softed though by citizen bloggers while pundits, politicians, the guilty and their lawyers all muddy the water before the full facts have been examined. Commissions or trials or lawsuits ensue based on half truths and spin, and “the truth is the first casualty of war.”

          The nuclear disaster at Fukushima, the wikileaks papers on the Iraq and Afghani war, the prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib that uncovered a direct line to the Bush white house regarding POLICY on torture, all of these things operate on two tracks – the superficially understood and muddied public realm and the empirical truth of the matters as seen in the actual evidence. Guess which realm rules the day? It’s not who votes, it’s who counts the votes sometimes….

          None of this precludes justice being done if the hard work and organization of good people succeed. It was the great Irishman Edmund Burke who said, “the only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing”

        • July 15, 2013 at 2:45 PM

          Ooops, I just replied to you using the reply for another comment of yours. Hope you get it.

      • amsterdam1234
        July 15, 2013 at 1:36 PM

        It doesn’t have to be on a public road. The Matthew Shepard & James Bird jr Hate Crime Prevention Act, was signed into law by Obama, and expanded the federal jurisdiction beyond the scope of the Commerce Clause, by adding this section.

        Section 249(a)(1) was passed pursuant to Congress’s Thirteenth Amendment authority to eradicate badges and incidents of slavery. The government need prove no other “jurisdictional” element to obtain a conviction

        Here is a link to the law. I think this law was intended exactly for cases like this.

      • July 15, 2013 at 2:42 PM

        Hey, willis… we’re on the same side and I agree all round. I am very sorry if I upset you by pushing a wrong button with my first reply, I was just putting it how I see it, but I could be wrong, and believe me what I say is not what I want just what I see, and believe me when it doesn’t go with my own sense of ethics and natural justice, I want to be wrong!

        IANAL either, but advocating voluntarily as a “litigation friend” for severely mentally impaired adults, I have had more dealings with lawyers and the courts than I wanted these past years. I despise lawyers and consider them, along with politicians and bankers, to be on the same level as drug dealers, pedophiles and the mob. A lawyer representing a vulnerable adult I was advocating and aiding, just laughed in my face and said, “Justice? You don’t come to court to get Justice.”


        • July 15, 2013 at 4:49 PM

          no worries. Any outrage is directed at the situation, not anyone on this blog! (more than friends – un-indicted co-conspirators… comrades.)

        • July 15, 2013 at 6:52 PM

          Yeah, “unindicted co-conspirators… comrades.”, love it because somewhere, under all this horse-shit there just has to be a pony!

          For you..

    • July 15, 2013 at 11:20 AM

      Can’t recall who, and IMBW so don’t jump on me as only trying to help, but IIRC someone at the lounge has contact I think with Crump. And doesn’t dothprotesttoomuch have some sort of contact with someone or something close to the family?

      • July 15, 2013 at 11:37 AM

        Please do me a favor and find out… I wouldn’t know where to start looking for that. If you have to ask, use discretion,

        • July 15, 2013 at 11:47 AM

          Will try willis, (discreetly of course), but you are asking the one who can’t post at the lounge without great difficulty since the professor has not yet discovered how to fix the problem and I haven’t had time these last days to try to find out either.

      • July 15, 2013 at 2:33 PM

        If anyone knows that, it would be Blushed Brown, who hasn’t been around the blogs much lately, due to having acquired a ‘real life’ (aka a job, IIRC).

        • July 15, 2013 at 2:38 PM

          I´ll try to find out later if I can (discreetly!).

          While I have you here, whonoze, can you tell me what, if you did anything to get me back posting on your blog, so I can tell the professor? I still can’t post at the lounge, except with difficulty by email, only reply to a fellow poster if I have a reply from them still showing up on my notifications page. Thnx a thou.

        • blushedbrown
          July 15, 2013 at 9:38 PM


          Hello Whonoze and everyone on the blog.
          I want to help if I possibly can. I understand the frustration with this trial and verdict. I was upset for a day or two, now we must move forward to the next step, Federal. I like the ideas being thrown around of getting all the evidence an video in a succinct format. I think WSI had some very good suggestions. I may be able to ask some people to get it to the RIGHT people. All I can do is try to help accomplish this task.

          I know this is a lot harder then getting Marinade Dave to do the first walk thru video, Wow that seems ages ago, but I digress. Get some thoughts together of we would like to present this and I will make some phone calls and emails of how we can get it to the right people.


          PS Yes you are correct I have day gig, to use your words Whonoze, but I will get this done with everyone’s help.

    • July 15, 2013 at 2:30 PM

      I’m not looking for guidelines. I’m looking for specific text of a succinct letter or email message.

  87. July 15, 2013 at 11:35 AM

    It’s also possible to use GZ’s own lies against him as a prosecution strategy I feel. If you buy that he spots TM by FT’s – which we see as a lie, but skip that for now – the he followed the teen from there to the clubhouse in some regard even if he claims he drove ahead and parked in the front lot. That’s one act. Then, according to George, he moved his car again to get to where he could see the teen. We know he was at the middle position, so the claim would be that this is a second act. Then we have the car to pedestrian chase – the third act. That would seem to go a long way towards criminal stalking – then we have him getting out of his car and admitting to following.

    The florida statute on criminal stalking is easy to look up. I think it fits. Do others have an opinion?


  88. July 15, 2013 at 4:04 PM

    If anyone is interested could be at least one of the jurors, B37, feels the need to explain and justify the verdict. Here two quotes from the abc article (link below):

    “My hope is that people will read Juror B37’s book, written with her attorney husband, and understand the commitment it takes to serve and be sequestered on a jury in a highly publicized murder trial and how important, despite one’s personal viewpoints, it is to follow the letter of the law,” Sharlene Martin wrote.

    “The reader will also learn why the jurors had no option but to find Zimmerman not guilty due to the manner in which he was charged and the content of the jury instructions,” the statement read.

    iirc, I read just a day or two ago one of the more legally minded at the lounge saying something about the jury instructions being worded in a way that made a guilty verdict nigh impossible.


    • July 15, 2013 at 9:36 PM

      Ok, forget what I said…

      Turns out B37 has been interviewed by Anderson. I will have to wait for a YT version but from reading at the lounge and a snippet, “¡apaga y vamanos!”.

      According to her, bar “possibly” one juror, they all believed it was GZ screaming for help. Why? In her opinion it was GZ because he was the one who got beaten up!!! (Even Good recanted and testified he couldn’t tell and the only reason he said it at first was because it made sense the one underneath would be the one losing and therefore the one screaming)

      She also believed Trayvon was on top beating the one underneath. Again even John Good testified how he wasn’t sure of this even though he had told the police that it was at first, but that what he saw could have been the one on top pushing down, in court he even made a push movement with two outstretched arms and open hands.

      Oh, and B37’s most convincing witness for the screams, the Vietnam medic, Mr Donnoly, the sneak pseudo audio expert. The one who kept tearing up, the one who could distinguish which one of the 80 soldiers was screaming on the battlefield, the one who should have had his testimony barred for witness sequestration violation.

      I cannot believe it. With jurors like this I prefer a judge based system, like in Spain where I have lived most of my life, except the idiots recently decided to go for a jury with apparently disastrous result as several cases cited by wikipedia shows.

      • Gracie
        July 15, 2013 at 10:30 PM

        She also said she believe Serino when he said George wasn’t lying. Wasn’t that cause for a mistrial and the jurors were ordered to ignore that?

        • July 15, 2013 at 10:47 PM

          Oooooh, Gracie… If you’re right that would be good news indeed!

          I recall SPD’s opinions not being admissible, but also someone at PL’s saying that defence had managed to get Serino’s opinion in by the back door.

          To me, B37’s reasons for her judgement calls were so superficial, so simplistic and I can’t believe anyone taking Donnolly’s testimony seriously, it was so staged, but maybe that’s just me!

          Meanwhile, I’m trying to read up about ways around double jeapordy… not good, but one can but hope!

        • Gracie
          July 15, 2013 at 10:59 PM

          No — I meant it was cause for a mistrial while the trial was going on. It’s too late now. The prosecutors could have called for a mistrial right at that point.

        • roderick2012
          July 16, 2013 at 7:25 AM

          Gracie, unfortunately it would only have resulted in a mistrial if the State had asked Serino his opinion.

          Sadly, O’Mara knew that nothing would happen if he asked the question.

  89. July 16, 2013 at 4:35 AM

    Folks, I’ve started writing a more detailed documentation of the work on the cctv.
    At this point I’m only putting in the figures.

    Here is the googledoc link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Sy6soSh3-wG7v9j20_3189BJh8ZqYDVAX73C95QkFFs/edit?usp=sharing

    • amsterdam1234
      July 16, 2013 at 8:22 AM

      Excellent job Tchoupi.
      Have you seen this video by Dave? Dave also walks through the eastpool hall in this video, but since there is no one walking in front of him, you get an unobstructed view of the mail boxes and what can be seen on TTL.
      This video also includes Dave making a uturn on TTL.

      Let me know if I can dig up some stuff for you.

      • July 16, 2013 at 10:34 AM

        That’s better. You can check it out.

        • amsterdam1234
          July 16, 2013 at 12:06 PM

          Much better! Of course everything improves when you remove Taaffe.

    • July 16, 2013 at 9:18 AM


      Is it possible via some more close analysis to make a better case that the first passes on RVC are GZ’s truck making u-turns? For example, is there anything about the appearance of the lights that is distinctive, perhaps measurable, that matches between all three passes but differs from other vehicles that pass through the images?

      • amsterdam1234
        July 16, 2013 at 9:38 AM

        Good point. A long time ago I tried to get a pattern, by looking at the reflection of the lights on the houses in the ep video. Some of the other videos may be helpfull too. Different windows, different angles.

      • July 16, 2013 at 10:26 AM

        I also looked at direct evidences with no success so far.
        The 3 passes route is only a hypothesis. It based on this observed traffic increase that coincidentally starts 2min prior to the NEN call, stops when the NEN call starts and that has involved a slow motion vehicle that could be GZ’s and the truck that stopped by the mailboxes.
        So, we don’t have a hard evidence on this, only suspicion of that it happened.

  90. July 16, 2013 at 10:38 AM

    whonoze :
    Is it possible via some more close analysis to make a better case that the first passes on RVC are GZ’s truck making u-turns? For example, is there anything about the appearance of the lights that is distinctive, perhaps measurable, that matches between all three passes but differs from other vehicles that pass through the images?

    Does anybody has a tool like “Blender”, the skills, the passion & the time to make a 3D model of the 4 camera views so we can move models of vehicles to better tackle some of the critical points like the one raised by Whonoze. That would be greatly appreciated.

  91. July 16, 2013 at 11:18 AM

    In case anyone’s interested, here’s a transcript of, imo, the most significant, perplexing and worrying part of what B-37 says to AC. It is the part in respect of Rachel Jeantel’s testimony.

    If you prefer best listen to it yourselves, but if I have placed the comma on the second to last line after the word “heard” correctly, (if I don’t place a comma the last sentence makes no sense at all), then B-37 is clearly saying that the NEN operator “heard something happening” BEFORE Rachel heard the phone fall !!!


    Look at the defence’s visual timeline again, if I am right, the missing 2 minutes B-37 is referring to are NOT the 2 missing mins we refer to, but the 2 mins missing from the grey timeline bar at the bottom, i.e from 7:13:40 to 7:15:30, shown with the usual graphic jagged broken line trick when it doesn’t fit.

    In this case could it be GZ’s not guilty verdict based in good part on the jury misreading a timeline chart ??? !!! Could it be that the defence did this on purpose or was it simply bad luck ? If I am correct, and this is an example of how carefully and responsibly juries take their duty and study the evidence, and considering the weeks of selection and almighty cost to select the useless 6, then, sorry, but imo I can only say FUCK JURIES!

    Starts around: 7:48

    AC: So you didn’t find her credible as a witness?

    B-37: No

    AC: So did you find her testimony important in terms of what she actually said?

    B-37: Well, I think the most important thing is… is the time that she was on the phone with Trayvon. So you basically, hopefully, if she heard anything she would say she did, but the time coincides with George’s statements and testimony of time limits and what had happened during that time.

    AC: Explain that.

    B-37: Well because there was… George was on the 911 call while she was on the call with Trayvon, and, em, the times coincide, and I think there was two minutes between when George ha… hang up from his 911 call to time Trayvon an… and Rachel had hung up, so really nothing could have happened because the 911 caller would’ve heard, the non-emergency call that George had called heard something happening before that.

    • July 16, 2013 at 11:26 AM

      Looking at the whole thing again, maybe I was too quick to post and I could have got some wrong, but B-37 IS talking about a 2 min slot and I as far as I can see she IS saying that the NEN “heard something happening before that”, i.e. something happening BEFORE Trayvon and Rachel’s call hung up, and as far as I can see it could have something to do with the break in the timeline or if not then it must be just a coincidence.

      • July 16, 2013 at 11:29 AM

        Another thing… How do you find a witness not credible, but believe her… what a lot of BS!

        • amsterdam1234
          July 16, 2013 at 12:14 PM

          She heard what she wanted to hear. It makes sick in my stomach. I am still hoping the DOJ takes action. If they would charge, the trial would probably be held in Orlando. The jury pool would include Brevard, Orange, Osceola, Seminole and Volusia county. Orange county is by far the biggest county, and voted solidly Obama. I think there would be a better jury pool.

        • July 16, 2013 at 12:18 PM

          Agreed, amsterdam, but did you read my post about the graphics and what she said about the NEN op hearing something before Rachel heard the phone fall. Did I get it right or am I completely off course?

        • amsterdam1234
          July 16, 2013 at 12:27 PM

          The prosecution screwed up, by not offering a good explanation of the 2 minute gap. Instead of telling them to check the walk through, they should’ve shown the clip.

          I am so devastated, I really can’t handle listening to this woman.
          I am sorry gbrbsb, I just want to move forward. This prosecution is a done deal, nothing can be changed now.

        • July 16, 2013 at 12:45 PM

          I agree and disagree, amsterdam, nothing can be changed for this prosecution, but if a civil trial is held it would be good to know where this one failed so as to not do the same again.

          So IF a break in the visual timeline did cause the jury to interpret the timeline of events completely wrong (even if they were hearing just what they wanted to), to the extent that they concluded the NEN operator heard something happening before Rachel had, then I for one want to make it known so that the same couldn’t happen again. I mean merely clarifying what the break means and how it works could have sufficed.

          And, that’s why I think what tchoupi is doing is fantastic, trying to clarify that gap so that it is easier to see and understand for the future not for that passed.

        • amsterdam1234
          July 16, 2013 at 1:01 PM

          I agree. I am just not up to it yet. I can’t handle having to listen to people like this woman. It is just too awful.

        • July 16, 2013 at 1:21 PM

          I understand amsterdam, will both you no more. Keep your spirits up, because with all the fuss, surely something good will come out in the end… I hope so for all of us.

        • amsterdam1234
          July 16, 2013 at 1:35 PM

          Thanks. Never was able to listen to people like that. But especially now.

    • July 16, 2013 at 12:59 PM

      What’s crystal clear is that this jury didn’t take the time to go over the evidence, and they were not provided enough guidance by the prosecution to know where to look.

      A clear travesty, but I’m not sure I can blame it all on the jury’s poor judgement when it’s the job of the investigators to go through the evidence and provide the prosecutors with the facts of the case.

      • July 16, 2013 at 1:12 PM

        That was the 1st trial I watched. I kind of came to the conclusion that the prosecution has to show the evidence and the jury will opine based on it.
        I was wrong. You cannot trust the jury in doing what it is supposed to do: Looking at the evidence by itself. They went straight to voting the verdict which means that their opinion was about buying either defense or state theory. Since, the state did not really build a theory until closure rebuttal, they lost it.

        • July 16, 2013 at 1:24 PM

          I was shocked that the prosecution very clearly NEVER understood the events of that evening, or the reasons for GZ’s many lies. It means essentially that GZ’s sloppy lies were good enough for the SPD, FDLE and the SAs and that none of these people availed themselves of the internet to check on what had been crowd-sourced and peer reviewed.

          What I don’t understand is how the Martin family lawyers fir into this. Were they listened to? Did they try to advise the state prosecutors at all? Did THEY read the internet?

    • wassointeresting
      July 16, 2013 at 1:32 PM

      @gb, No, she is saying the 911 caller die NOT hear anything happening. You are missing a comma in the last line after “called”. Actually, try putting the phrase “the non-emergency call that George had called” in parenthesis.

      • wassointeresting
        July 16, 2013 at 1:33 PM

        correction “911 caller did NOT hear anything happening”

      • July 16, 2013 at 2:06 PM

        Thanks to much wsi, will try that. I kept thinking something was wrong… seemed to easy… what an idiot! You just saved me making an even bigger idiot of myself over at the lounge! Forever grateful.

        • wassointeresting
          July 16, 2013 at 2:22 PM

          Actually, it’s quite ironic that this woman, who said Rachael was uneducated and lacked communications skills, actually is not so much of a skilled communicator herself. I mean, yes, she can enunciate her words clearly, but her sentences aren’t always grammatically correct or make literal sense. Like she said that she could tell Rachael didn’t want to be “part of this jury” when she meant that Rachael didn’t want to be part of the trial. Those who throw stones, shouldn’t live in glass houses, or in this case, be writing a book.

        • July 16, 2013 at 2:43 PM

          Thankfully, albeit I think I would have read the book just to try to understand why, what, how and who, (no way would I read MO/SO’s or any from clan Zed), it appears the publisher has retracted (well, at least in public) due to an aggressive twitter campaign, so for now there there may be no book!


        • wassointeresting
          July 16, 2013 at 2:55 PM

          Just as well, I think in-depth interviews of jurors right now would best capture what went on back there. If you wait for a book, all it does is give the author time to reflect and have their words edited.

        • July 16, 2013 at 3:31 PM

          No more interviews from B-37, it seems.

          Just read her tweeted statement and in brief she has pulled out of writing a book because, by being sequestered she had been “shielded” from the “depth of pain” outside. That the book was only intended to show that the system can create conflicts with our “spirit” of justice, and that now home and back in society she just wants to return to her normal life again.

          full statement

      • July 16, 2013 at 2:13 PM

        It worked of course… I really must polish up on my English… and my spelling… and constant typos… well, ok, must polish up on everything!

    • July 16, 2013 at 1:54 PM

      She expressing her bias, and ignorance of the likely nature of event is all. She wants to say that GZ isn’t chasing TM while he is on the END of the NEN call while Rachel Jeantel seemingly tells a story where TM is being chased in the missing minutes.

      She’s basing things on FIRST believing GZ’s lies, and then seeing if other things contradict him or not but deciding they don’t by misreading what the testimony is.

      If you start, like she does with the premise that GZ was “returning to(wards) his truck” when the encounter begen near the T you are going to reach the same conclusion she did. And the state never worked hard enough to establish clearly that this is ONLY the words of a self-serving liar.

      GZ moved away from his vehicle for less than ten seconds before agreeing that the police did not need him to follow the teen. Then, four minutes later he still was not back to his vehicle. The state never made this clear.

      It’s sickening to learn these details about the juror’s bias and mistakes and lack of clear logic now that the case is over. What a hasty and misguided rush to judgement…. aided and abetted by an incompetent investigation that missed such important elements as the car to pedestrian chase and the vey map that GZ marked his true position on.

      • July 16, 2013 at 2:31 PM


        The state never made this clear.

        Yet you’ve just put it as clear as daylight in one sentence:

        Then, four minutes later he still was not back to his vehicle.

        I can imagine if the State had had their own, perhaps two timelines, not borrowing from the defence which was trying to push their point.

        One focussing on the pursuit and all the impossibilities there, perhaps with a map showing distances and average walking times, and one from where George exits his vehicle to the end. They could have done so much and did so little, just chucked out quick clues as if for a whodunit.

        • July 16, 2013 at 2:33 PM

          Dang, my “everything” to include; must polish up on my WP skills too!

        • July 16, 2013 at 4:41 PM

          IF you are quoting wsi, I don’t see his post. Is this thread messed up?

        • wassointeresting
          July 16, 2013 at 5:01 PM

          @willis, gb was quoting your statement, but perhaps mistakenly attributed to me. BTW, despite my gender neutral screen name, I was born with two X chromosomes. 🙂

        • July 16, 2013 at 5:25 PM

          Mea culpa… I meant you willis, I liked how you put it.

          And please don’t tell me, apart from polishing up on everything else I will have to polish up on paying attention too! I have dangerously burnt the candle at both ends. I haven’t had more than a couple of hours sleep a night since the actual trial began… I am exhausted. I need some real sleep… but not tonight Josephine, because I have to read and correct a 27 page lawyer’s draft of a complaint to the Government Ombudsman by tomorrow and I haven’t even started!

        • July 16, 2013 at 5:28 PM

          So who apart from whonoze and tcoupi (?) has a Y chromosome, here!

  92. July 16, 2013 at 3:23 PM

    New post up. Please read and contribute (following the format…)


  93. July 16, 2013 at 4:33 PM

    The juror’s statement about her book is self serving and it’s obvious. The book offer was withdrawn FIRST, and then she grows a conscience. Yeah, right.

    What a travesty that this fool was ever allowed to vote on a jury.

    Of course in a certain sense she is right, no jury could convict with the instructions they were given and the FIBAR state of Florida’s self defense laws. Killing and lying is a sure road to a not guilty verdict in the state of Florida.

  94. July 17, 2013 at 9:39 AM

    gbrbsbblogs :
    So who apart from whonoze and tcoupi (?) has a Y chromosome, here!

    I do have a Y chromosome.

    • July 17, 2013 at 2:09 PM

      I think B37 has two Z chromosomes. 🙂

      • 2dogsonly
        July 18, 2013 at 11:47 AM

        Whonoze, I googled “two z chromosomes” and that particular reptile cannot survive in sunlight and can destroy higher developed organisms if released.

  95. July 17, 2013 at 1:15 PM

    Folks, I spent a few hours yesterday night to make a Blender model of the clubhouse cctv.
    Check the last pages of the googledoc linked below and give feed backs please.

    My goal is to be able to reproduce as precisely as possible cctv video images and narrow down the range of possibilities.

    I believe I have been able to get quite close to the camera’s view ranges. It can be better though. Lighting is difficult. I still miss some light sources and I need to better set the intensity of each source.

    The work already brought some fruits:
    1) The Kitchen camera is not where I used to position it. It actually is in the Kitchenette which is located in the South-East corner of the Game Room (cf. Marinade Dave’s video).
    2) The camera is mostly facing west.
    3) The north wall of the kitchenette obliterates the view to the little window.
    4) The view through the larger window is with a large tilt. So large that we see between the two central pillars at the front of the clubhouse.
    5) The east pillar masks part of the window.
    6) The view angle indicates that we should not be able to see the road (RVC) in the Kitchen video. What we see is the parking pavement. So, THE SLOW VEHICLE WE THINK IS GZ’S WAS NOT ON THE ROAD.


    • July 17, 2013 at 2:42 PM

      Let me take back part of what I wrote concerning the Kitchen camera. I can see part of too many vehicles to conclude that I should not be able to see the street itself. Else the conclusion would be that many RATLs people drive off road.
      I have a fix that is simple, I can lower the camera and make it more horizontal. Which is what appears when comparing the Kitchens images with the Game Room’s images. It means that the kitchen camera is not mounted on the sealing. It must be on a wall. Too bad Marinade Dave did not film the kitchen more in details.

      • July 18, 2013 at 3:24 PM

        For some reason I can’t get your link to load. But this was my thought, long ago about the slow moving car.

        Aprox position of car?


        and, an earlier guess that places the car moving the other way, no discounted by me, IIRC

        Aprox position of car?

        I do thing the octagon shaped sign is a clue worth noting.

        Please make your preliminary work available via a different means if convenient. I’ll try to access it through a different means as well. Very interested.

    • July 17, 2013 at 2:46 PM

      Great stuff. I thought the truck might have been cutting through the parking area based on it’s relative size. That is, I didn’t think it would appear that big if it was back on RVC proper. This is important in that it verifies that GZ was cruising the clubhouse, looking for something (or rather, some one).

      If you can determine that the first two passes are NOT GZ’s truck, that only leaves two options for how GZ knew to be on the lookout:
      1. A tip, with SZ’s phone call being the most likely candidate.
      2. GZ saw TM enter several minutes earlier, went home to get his gun, and then returned to hunt for the youth. This seems unlikely, as he would have no idea that TM would be anywhere near the clubhouse.

      If the first two passes ARE GZ’s truck, then it’s possible he spotted TM by the mailboxes out of the corner of his eye as he drove through the RVC/TTL intersection. But why then would he drive by the front of the clubhouse again, turn around, and cruise the front slowly? I suppose TM could have been wandering between the mail awning and the overhangs on the clubhouse.

      We could imagine an SZ tip-off scenario like this:
      SZ is heading out of RATL to go see her family or whatever. As she heads North on RVC, SHE sees TM emerge from one of the shortcut paths. SHE then continues East on RVC and SHE parks at the clubhouse. She watches TM walk toward her for awhile. TM walks past HER car, and stops under the clubhouse awning to get out of the rain. Shellie pulls out, and calls GZ to tell him that she saw ‘a real suspicious guy, walking in the rain, just looking around at the houses’ and that the ‘suspect’ is now hanging out by the clubhouse. This would help explain why GZ first marks the more Northern shortcut as where he spotted TM, before reverting to in front of Taaffe’s, so he could connect TM to his narrative of crimes past — Shellie may not have been specific about where exactly TM appeared, e.g. ‘I saw him come through that shortcut between the homes!’

      • July 18, 2013 at 3:30 PM

        Agree with all of this. Of course I have to say many things are possible. (What GZ claims happened is not possible) I was about to post the same idea about Shellie seeing TM at the front doors of the clubhouse as well, but wouldn’t he be seen in the videos where that the case? Perhaps not.

        I’m not in favor of speculation but the theory that Shellie was the tipoff person seems very likely to me.

        And I agree that GZ seems to be conflating two things: the window peeper story and whatever he heard from a tipoff person into a false account of what he himself saw.

    • July 17, 2013 at 6:38 PM

      I don’t know anything about 3D modeling. What kind of feedback are you seeking on the models?

      • July 17, 2013 at 9:32 PM

        I look for a better understanding of what the videos show.

        For example, i should be able to extract the position and speed of a given vehicle observed in the videos.

        Another example is the location of GZ’s truck when he parked on TTL. I want to show that that car that moved north never went passed the mailboxes.

        Another possible application is to look for every possible locations of where GZ could have parked and show that it is not what he said he did.

        If some of you are interested in helping, I recommend using Blender. It’s free and efficient. Then, I can send you the model I’m building so you can play model cars and check the results.

        • amsterdam1234
          July 18, 2013 at 12:04 PM

          I’ve been taking peeks, checking your progress. I absolutely love what you’ve put together. I’m installing Blender while I am writing this.
          I would love to know exactly where he parked on TTL.
          I liked that you were able to identify the snowman, and how the rear lights move from the left to the right.

          A long time ago, I was looking for a light pattern on the houses accross the pond, to see if that would help explain the movement on RVC. Iirc, you can see the headlights of a car, when it enters the gate, and when it makes a right turn or a left turn.

          Blender is installed. I’m going to read the manual now.

      • July 18, 2013 at 1:18 AM

        Just added 2 images showing where the slow truck was when the picture of its rear panel was taken.
        The model is a really good tool. Too bad I did not do that a year ago. It’s not much work.

        • 2dogsonly
          July 18, 2013 at 11:35 AM

          Hopefully, you’ll send your work to Sanford.Florida@usdoj.gov

          I’m not being lazy and I’ll try to email but I think an explanation of level of knowledge put into your work will cause DOJ to question why it wasn’t presented but cartoon thingy was; even if not allowed in evidence, jury was allowed to take it back with them. Why? To oh and ahh over display so inane even JN referred to it and fight club testimony as ” Infomercials”

        • July 18, 2013 at 5:30 PM

          Okay, I finally got the google docs thing to load. Looks great to me, nothing different from what I’d previously decided was there 5 months ago.

          It seems GZ swung into the clubhouse lot slowly but never stopped. He did stop by the mail kiosk. But as we have seen, he placed his call on the move and settled into position facing the mail kiosk to speak to the NEN call taker.

          IMO he’s there when the vital exchange takes place “he’s near the clubhouse right now?” / “Yeah, now he’s coming towards me.”

          I see no reason to doubt his own marking on the map he gave Singleton. The timing fits easily with a person walking in his direction from anywhere in his vision that is nearer to the clubhouse than to any other building. That range of positions obviously included the mail kiosk.

          What’s bizarre is how the state introduced this evidence partially but never argued it’s significance at trial. I’m at a loss as to how to come to grips with this.

  96. 2dogsonly
    July 18, 2013 at 12:38 AM

    Here is email to send info for information not submitted at trial

    Brainiacs, I suggest your excellent video work be sent while there is media attention on hate crime and further investigatin by Feds.

    Crick sent some info today.

    It’s been a wake up call as I thought this walking while Black was long time over.

    good night to all

  97. July 18, 2013 at 2:55 PM

    here is the text of what I plan to send to the DoJ, and also possibly to anyone I can identify as a potential friendly contact. Please let me know if you object to being included or excluded as I’ve mentioned bloggers by avatar name in the letter.

    I’ve not mailed this yet, awaiting input from others. It’s close however to what I plan on sending.


    I am not a lawyer but after careful research of the evidence submitted in this case it seems that the Florida Special Prosecutor’s investigation was incomplete and fatally flawed. George Zimmerman lied to the Sanford PD in a deliberate effort to hide a specific, earlier crime separate from what occurred in the physical altercation. (Also, of course, lying to police investigators is another crime in an of itself.) These deductions may or may not relate to civil rights violations or possible federal charges but I feel it is my duty as a concerned part to bring them to the attention of the Department of Justice, and I hope that someone will respond to let me know that this letter has been read, not just received as I am available to answer questions if needed.

    I believe evidence submitted at the state level trial shows that a car–to-pedestrian chase occurred on Twin Trees Lane, causing the teen to run off the roadway in fear for his safety. This aggressive act by Mr. Zimmerman is in possible violation of the Florida statutes regarding criminal stalking, but he was never charged for this activity. Had he been charged and determined guilty of this stalking by a jury any subsequent actions would not have been allowed to be characterized as justifiable homicide or self-defense. In other words, George Zimmerman was in my opinion committing a crime which could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt before he even stepped out of his car, thus invalidating any later claim of self-defense in the resulting physical altercation.

    Many things are possible. What George Zimmerman claims happened is not possible. His accounts are inconsistent and openly contradictory in places, meaning that at least one account must be false. In his case, it is often that both accounts are false, and the proof is in evidence already. Sadly, neither the SPD or the FDLE seems to have put the case together using satisfactory deductive reasoning. There is a reason and an explanation to the lies he told, and at the heart of it was his efforts to omit and obscure, and obfuscate the circumstances surrounding this car-to-pedestrian chase.

    According to George Zimmerman he first saw Trayvon entering the Retreat at Twin Lakes via a shortcut, shortly before a call was placed to the sanford Police Non-Emergency number. (For brevity’s sake I will call this the NEN call.) It’s likely this event never happened. Instead an examination of the clubhouse surveillance videos shows that his tale of parking in the front lot of the clubhouse is a false narrative, as no car ever stops there in the video entered into evidence. His recorded call to NEN includes a telling exchange early on, when he is asked of the “suspicious teen” we later know to be Trayvon Martin “he’s near the clubhouse right now?” and replies, “yeah, and now he’s coming towards me.” If one can place the two individuals on a map at that moment, and according to GZ one if not both are somewhere near the clubhouse, then a moving portrait can be discerned from this and other clues. It’s my belief that Zimmerman first spotted Trayvon Martin as the teen waited out the rain under the mail kiosk, as he seems to have told Rachel Jeantel, his friend who was on the phone with him at various documented points during the evening. Their phone records and Ms. Jeantel’s accounts seem to place the teen there under the kiosk already at time before GZ is presumed to have been near the shortcut in the vicinity of 1400 Retreat View Circle. But deductive reasoning supports these views and can be tied to hard evidence in the form of a map and the NEN call recording.

    By looking at a map that George drew on for SPD investigator Doris Singleton one can see that GZ marked a position on Twin Trees Lane near the mail kiosk after the one he claims shows he parked in front of the clubhouse to begin his call to the NEN call taker. This “middle” position is one he quickly amended however, scratching it out to instead place a mark near the sidewalk cut through that connects Twin Trees with Retreat View Circle by passing a T intersection connecting what is referred to as the “dog walk”. It’s immediately after making this “correction” in the interview with Singleton that GZ presents the idea that Trayvon Martin “doubled back” to circle his vehicle with his hand in his waistband, before again disappearing into the dog walk vicinity.

    If an attempt is made to align the sounds and words of the NEN call recording with any of the various positions he’s marked on the map, a curious thing occurs. He could never have been in the clubhouse parking lot at all. And, he could not have already been at the “final” position down by the cut-through path. And the tale of the teen “doubling back” is clearly impossible as well. Yet, if one places the two persons “near the clubhouse” with the teen at the mail kiosk and GZ at the position he scratched out, the pieces fall into place easily. Trayvon walks towards GZ’s car and passes it at a walking pace just as GZ’s emotion rises and subsides, changing to a different tone as the time corresponds with the teen passing the car and continuing towards his home for the week. Then, as GZ says “these a**holes always get away” the teen continues walking until he reaches the vicinity of the start of the cut thru sidewalk. At that time GZ tells the NEN call taker, “sh*t, he’s running” and very quickly a car door chime is heard as he seems to get ready to exit his car and pursue on foot.

    Why does the teen run? It’s important to note that GZ is adamant that he moved his vehicle during the course of his call to the NEN call taker. In his false narrative however he remains unclear as to when and how he did this move, as it cannot be made to align with the events described on the recording. But he insists that he was directed to move in order to “maintain a visual” on the “suspect,” as he wrote in his written statement, and that he did so with his car moving from one place to another. He also describes this alleged activity in interviews, however inconsistently. He wants to say that he never moved his car aggressively, only arriving ahead of the teen when moving from near the short cut near 1400 RVC to the clubhouse parking lot, and then only moving without the teen in sight from clubhouse lot to cut thru vicinity, at which time the teen approached him, not vice-versa. It’s a self-serving and convenient narrative which is clearly false, since that activity cannot be made to conform with the timing of the NEN call recording’s described events.

    It seems likely that the teen ran because the car moved in concert with him down TTL from west to east once the teen had passed the vehicle. GZ likely either reversed his car, or made a y-turn or U turn to follow the retreating youth, intimidating him to where he decide to leave the roadway and flee for the dog walk area, thus ending the car-to-pedestrian chase. How can we know that the car was not already at the cut through vicinity? By timing the walking pace it would take for the teen to leave “near the clubhouse now” (anywhere near, not just at the mail kiosk) to when he would pass the vehicle, were it at the cut through vicinity. If this were the walking pace TOWARDS the car, then the same pace after passing the car would bring the teen out of sight of the observer before George could say he was now running. This is what I call “the long tail” theory, and it is only that , a theory but it demonstrates the unlikelihood that GZ was already parked by the cut thru when the teen left the clubhouse vicinity. It’s also NOT what GZ claims happened at all. So even if his car were there, he’s lying about what happened. He has told two types of lies – lies of omission and lies of substitution. The “doubling back” lie is one of substitution since it was he who doubled back to chase the teen, and it was he who originally doubled his car back to first pass the mail kiosk, then to return to park facing it on Twin Trees Lane as seen in the surveillance videos.

    Important corroborating evidence exists in the testimony of Rachel Jeantel regarding this car to pedestrian chase but it is buried in the confusion of the case. In her initial interview with benjamin Crump and ABC NEWS/Matt Guttman, she speaks to this following by car but the recording is poor and only a portion was ever released by ABC. Subsequently she was deposed by Bernie De La Rionda but he never asked her specifically about this aspect of the night. It’s my opinion that the FDLE / SA’s investigation never pieced it together. On the witness stand the state failed to address this car to pedestrian chase with her, and it was only on cross examination that she spoke to the issue again to attorney Don West, who also failed to understand her fully.

    Also vital to examine is the surveillance videos from the clubhouse. The exact timing of the videos is in question due an error that made the time stamp “drift’ but a consortium of internet researches worked together to place other known events into a timeline, such as the arrival of first responders and the comments of residents during 911 calls reporting these events. A close-but-not exact sync point can be deducted from the arrival of officer TIm Smith’s patrol car as confirmed by his logs and the clubhouse video, and reported by a witness on Twin Trees lane who was looking towards the clubhouse as he responded to her address initially, before moving to the other side of the dog walk and onto Retreat View Circle to finally exit his car. This information was peer-reviewd and crowd sourced over a period of months first on a blog called “BCClist” and then on another called “Whonoze.” A video presenting these conclusions was made by a blogger known as “whonose” aka “Treeslaw” and posted to YouTube. It’s 47 minutes long and exhaustive in presenting the sources for what is shown and the various conclusions it surmises. The video has been viewed over 100,00 times to date. The current url is here:

    I have posted many many things to both the BCClist blog, the whonoze blog and also on Frederick Leatherman’s law blog, and Jeralyn Merritt’s Talk Left blog under the name “willisnewton.” A handful or regular posters there are worth speaking with or at least examining what they have written, some who favor George Zimmerman and some who don’t. If an investigator wanted to go through what some people who spent hundreds of hours pouring over documents ever thought, they should look at the posts by amsterdam, whonoze, nomatternevermind, unitron, tchoupicalliou, and myself. While any group is prone to mistakes, these posters seem to form a nucleus of peer-reviewed opinions that have stood the test of time. Someone who is just recently coming to examine the facts of the case might gain valuable insight and save a lot of time by following in their footsteps rather than trying to start from scratch.

    Having said that , I would urge that a complete and separate investigation be launched into the facts surrounding the death of Trayvon Martin. Just keep in mind that George ZImmermn does not exist outside of space and time, and that both he and the teenager were SOMEWHERE when the following exchange happened – “he’s by the clubhouse now?” “Yeah, now he’s coming towards me.” According to what others have reviewed and argued for endless hours, there is only one place that can be made to align with the NEN call recording, and that place is where George marked on a map before quickly amending his position. That true position proves he chased the teen with his car causing the teen to run off the roadway in fear. This narrative was never introduced at trial and therefor the whole truth was not known to the judge or jury or the public.

    While I agree with the conclusions of this video it is important for me to stress that my own conclusions regarding a car-to-pedestrian chase were reached separate from anything shown on the surveillance tapes whatsoever, and are based on GZ’s statements to SPD, the map he drew (and amended tellingly) and the known walking speeds of humans as contrasted to the events described on the NEN call recording. Both the surveillance videos and the testimony of Rachel Jeantel are merely corroborating evidence that supports these conclusions, not part of how they were reached nor necessary an an argument in my opinion to proving beyond a reasonable doubt that George Zimmerman chased Trayvon Martin in an aggressive act down Twin Tree Lane prior to exiting his car to follow on foot.

    Sadly, I do not know how this would or would not figure into a civil rights case brought forth on federal grounds. But it seems to be important information that the state of Florida failed to argue at trial.

    Thank you for reading, and feel free to contact me if you have questions or concerns.

    my real name/ address/ contact info

  98. July 18, 2013 at 5:37 PM

    FWIW I think the DoJ is stalling and very unlikely to act in this case. Soliciting email tips is hardly going to break this case. But it will help quell some of the outrage about the bad verdict.

    Proving a federal hate crime took place is an extremely tall order IMO and this case doesn’t fit the bill, even though GZ clearly decided that TM was a criminal based on his appearance and skin color, not his activities which he likely did not witness of “staring at the houses.,etc.’ which are hardly illegal or suspicious either.

    • 2dogsonly
      July 18, 2013 at 7:55 PM

      Willis, DOJ has put a hold on evidence, guns, photos.

      • July 19, 2013 at 10:04 PM

        I’m unimpressed. Bad cases make bad case law. I’m hoping to be surprised but that’s all.

        In a few weeks or months we will hear, “after careful consideration, blah blah” and a remorseless LYING child killer will get his gun back.

  99. 2dogsonly
    July 18, 2013 at 6:39 PM

    Trayvon’s parents on MSNBC, Politics Nation right now!

  100. 2dogsonly
    July 18, 2013 at 7:50 PM

    also means GZ won’t be getting gun back

    VP Of NBC & Michael Steele, former head of Republican Party were just speaking of their experiences of driving/ living while Black. the NBC VP said he had forgotten. Very very scary stories. Cope doing what is known as the 5 block follow and coming with guns drawn due to mistaken identity.
    Michael Steale said he had been stopped while in a suit and tie. NBC VP said his happened when he was in weekend clothes, NBC VP comes from very wealthy neighborhood, too.

    Rally in my southern hometown, Jax. Sat..

    Hope info was mailed! Or sent

  101. 2dogsonly
    July 18, 2013 at 7:57 PM

    Do you’ll have twitter accounts? @bcc.list , @princss6,@puffytuffy
    information is whiz bang fast there

    • July 18, 2013 at 11:24 PM

      Translation please

      • 2dogsonly
        July 19, 2013 at 12:39 PM

        Translation of twitter accounts? Account on twitter .
        @bcclist is crick’s twitter name ( handle),@princss6 is princss handle( she did the blood work on old bcc.list blog, @ puffytuffy is my twitter name.

        If you set up an account,you start following anyone you have an interest in on any subject you choose. News is tweeted almost as it happens

        • July 19, 2013 at 8:57 PM

          I’m old. Complete sentences with a subject and predicate are appreciated. Thanks for moving in my direction.

  102. July 19, 2013 at 2:36 PM


    I’ve been too busy yesterday to get much done. I spent some times in the evening though to work on the 3D model of the CCTV.
    I have quite a bit of findings put in googledoc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Sy6soSh3-wG7v9j20_3189BJh8ZqYDVAX73C95QkFFs/edit?usp=sharing

    I used a free 3d model of a Mitsubishi truck that I reshaped to get the Ridgeline proportions. In any case, that vehicle must be a pickup truck with no canopie. That matches GZ’s Ridgeline.

    The truck was not as slow as I initially thought (~10MPH). It just did not got straight on RVC cutting through the camera’s view range. Instead, its trajectory just happened to overlap the Kitchen’s camera view range.

    This lead me to the main conclusion that is that truck was in fact pulling in the parking lot in front of the clubhouse. I could get a good match of the model with the Game Room & Kitchen videos at 20:47 & 20:48, the times where we see that vehicle.

    So, he did go on the parking lot. I need to check two things: 1) Where did he come from? & 2) Where/when did he go from there?
    I mean I’m not sure GZ was coming from home, he could have come from the north gate and make a sharp u-turn by the clubhouse. I’m not sure he ever parked in front of the clubhouse. I should be able to easily answer the 2nd question.


    Thanks for looking into this. I should send you the 3d model. HOw do we do that? The file is today 7.5MB.

    • 2dogsonly
      July 19, 2013 at 4:16 PM

      Hi tchoupicaillou!
      I forwarded your work above to Sanford.Florida@usdoj.gov

      Received auto response”won’t be able to answer all emails” so they received it.

      I can view google docs but YouTube won’t cooperate.

      Could you spell out what you see. Now, it’s in 3D it makes it much more understandable to those who are spatially challenged.

      I would urge everyone to stress the highly technical,skills in hoping someone will take notice.

      If you are seeing something left out of testimony, that’s what I believe DOJ is researching.

      It would be wonderful to forward your work to media, Sonny last night (?), AndersonCooper,Poltical Nation, Mother Jones Mag., Rolling Stone, Tom Joyner( Rachel’s attorney), Crump& Parks, etc.

      You have done amazing work and if I could access you tube would love to see Whonoze work.

      Twitter handle

      • July 19, 2013 at 11:25 PM

        Thanks 2dogsonly for your help. It is a bit early though. The document is not even written.

        I throw my help message to the sea again.
        1) I need anybody interested in investigating hypothesis using the 3d model.
        2) I need anybody interested in writing the text of the document by commenting the figures.

      • July 19, 2013 at 11:48 PM

        I now have the evidence that the truck we believe is GZ’s passed the stop sign at the junction with TTL.

        Last year, I noticed that every vehicle going east on RVC generate a particular light sequence through the smaller window of the Game Room video. I’m now able to reproduce and therefore understand exactly what it is.

        When a vehicle goes east on RVC, it first illuminates the pavement and bushes right in front of the larger window. Then, the pavement seen through the smaller window gets illuminated too.
        Concerning the smaller window, the think that was interesting is that right after the increase of illumination, it gets (completely) dark. I mean, much darker than when there is no car. The image that follows is still very dark but has 1 tiny bright spot. Finally, the images goes back to “normal” (no car state).

        I found that what we see through the little window is RVC’s pavement at the stop line. The pavement is illuminated mostly by the street light located at the RVC/TTL junction, across RVC from the clubhouse. Hence the lighter color we see through the window when there is no car.
        The darker image that follows the bright one is actually the body of the car masking the light from the street lamp. Since this is the stop sign, most vehicle stop or come to a near stop causing that drop of lighting to be systematic.
        The bright spot that comes next is one of the two taillight when the car crosses the stop line.

        GZ’s car which for some reasons went off road onto the parking lot, shows seconds later that illumination drop followed by a bright spot indicative of the vehicle crossing the stop line.

  103. July 20, 2013 at 1:04 PM

    Whonoze, I think we need a new open thread. That one is too large already

    • 2dogsonly
      July 20, 2013 at 6:33 PM

      Hi Brainiacs!
      Jacksonville had their demonstration today. Nothing on local news pre-walk, maybe it will be reported on evening news. The march went to Angela Corey’s office but seemed to focus on the injustice of another case where woman received the 20 yr. sentence mandated under Florida Statue. This is a whole different issue( defendant and victim are both Black) and diflected the racism and corruption of the TM verdict onto length of sentence and “private prison institution”.I would not be surprised if our Republican Govenor and Republican State Attorney were not behind this diffusion.You’ll are aware of Republican’s expert use of this tactic,I’m sure.

      A Black teenager’s murder was ignored by an ENTIRE police department …when the internet caused the 2.5 million outcrys via Move On.Org, it then necessitated and allowed a MUCH higher level to continue the coverup, a district state attorney AND a Judge AND the Appealant District. Remember, Judge Lester had GZ’s “number” and when he refused to step down, the 2nd DCA overruled him and forced him out. Appeals are very rarely successful but GZ’s attorney won 2 or 3.

      I am never ever ever a believer in conspiracy theories so this took me a long time to understand.But from the beginning, the fix was in. They weren’t going to do a thing to GZ until his own cousin called on the 29th. That is why no drug test, Serino either ignored witnesses who begged to be questioned until they had to go to media, & on the night he attempted to change witness recollection, easy questioning,wash up, no pictures, ok did I mention washing off evidence.(yikes).

      The former cop friend, Mark Osterman, was in the background on walk through telling him how to act ( re-listen to it, you hear a voice in the background saying ” say this, George, they always want to hear this”. The videotape shows GZ pointing at back of homes but edits out what is directly in front, his judge father is permitted to stay, a car is parked in front of house to block house number. They even have a Black person with her daughter walk through.I thought it was just a resident but on another longer tape, they walk up speaking. This entire walk through was completely scripted….from GZ’s white polo shirt to Detective Singleton’s extensive patting and stroking and clucking GZ’s little boo boos.

      What I’m begging is for you’ll to finish the Blender work with really clear explanations so blush brown can get it to someone who may, but probably not but may, get some exposure to what is way more frightening than what a sick BTK type person will do in the future and he will .

      I know human psychology, I don’t get maps, graphics, time sequence things or I would help you explain as you asked us for…but Florida and probably DOJ would love for this to Peter the hell out and after the rallys today, it may fade away. You’ll have done something and I’m not sure if it’s uncovering evidence left out or if it just shows GZ did pull in parking lot or what exactly your new Blender work points out.

      Blushed Brown says she can make calls, if she’s legitimate and I was ” catfishes” by a tweet or named bigboi so taking her word she can make contact, please please send her your Blender work with explanations an elementary school child can follow.

      Thank you!!!Excuse the length;-))

  104. 2dogsonly
    July 20, 2013 at 6:44 PM

    Worse than police corruption, bcc.list has their first troll.
    Begins his “why did thug” statement
    good god, it’s way worse than I thought!

    • July 20, 2013 at 7:59 PM

      Thanks for the support 2dog. I’m working on it and I hope to accomplish what you actually state: Make it in a way that anybody can watch the video and understand what it is going on when a light event occurs.
      The structure should be something like:
      1) Where. Show the clubhouse and the location of the cameras + their view ranges.
      2) What. Show what is visible when a vehicle moves by the clubhouse.
      3) Specific cases. Some events are specific. It s good to show how we can explain those using the 3d model.
      4) When. Once you have all the light events in place, you start to get the whole picture of what happened on that night. So, you can time the video using known facts.
      5) GZ’s claims. SHow that they don’t match the videos.

  105. July 20, 2013 at 11:21 PM
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