Home > Uncategorized > Zimmerman trial, after week 2

Zimmerman trial, after week 2

With the weather stats and the timeline now added, there is so much entered into evidence by the State without comment that I have to believe they will be putting it all together in context in the closing argument. Again, since the State gets the last word, I’m guessing BDLR is trying to keep as many cards as he can hidden from the Defense until the last moment. Rich Mantei was hinting at some arguments possibly to come in his response to the JOA motion. This is frustrating for us since we have no idea what the State is going to argue either, and we have good reason to believe their quiver is missing some pretty potent arrows. The security videos nail GZ as a liar far more convincingly than either the Hannity SYG remark or the claim of spreading TM’s arms. But without a clear statement from W3 of where Smith was when she first spotted him, precise clock time of the light events cannot be established, and the State didn’t get that.

I wonder if the State has looked into ANY of the evidence analysis in blogs like this and on YouTube. I wouldn’t be surprised if they ignored the Web entirely since most of what’s out there — anti-Zim as well as pro-Zim — is just hysterical foundationless ranting. This is my problem with Trent Sawyer — his stuff would rightly scare off anyone looking for solid usable evidence. Even if the prosecution stumbled onto LLMPapa’s channel, I don’t know if they’d get past the multitude of diatribes and emotional tributes to get to the pieces where worthy arguments about evidence are presented.

And so we wait in agony. Pass the Temazepam, George!

Categories: Uncategorized
  1. wassointeresting
    July 5, 2013 at 7:32 PM

    Not just following, but will go in the same direction to see where this trial leads…

    Let’s just hope they stumbled upon your sec video uploaded on youtube. It’s easily digested and much more palatable than Trent’s profanity ladened commentary. The weather stuff may be a hat tip to Tchoupi’s webpage. Of course we’ll never know if they actually got any pointers from the internet though.

  2. July 5, 2013 at 8:42 PM

    Did anyone get a screen shot of that “timeline” that BDLR flashed around? I got a poor one from my cell phone.. It contains eight lines of bullet points, total.

    I can’t read any of the lines.

    • wassointeresting
      July 5, 2013 at 8:57 PM

      Nope, didn’t get the timeline, but I wonder if Mantai’s “doubting” of GZ’s going to Target today is significant. I mean, we’ve all wondered that ourselves, but the state must have some purpose in mentioning it. This is driving me crazy.I have to suppose that the state couldn’t bring a witness to “summarize” everything because it would be considered speculation right? There’s no one person that can speak to every part of the timeline as an “expert”. I think we’re just going to have to see the state’s timeline in closing, during which time the judge will probably instruct the jury as she did at the opening statements that what the lawyers themselves say are not evidence.

      • July 5, 2013 at 9:16 PM

        I missed his exact words on that part somehow. What was his swipe at the issue? We have to assume they have at least something to say he wasn’t going there. I hope it is recovered text messages that GZ thought he deleted. Time will tell.

        I’m not so sure I believe the prosecution can deliver. The multiple witnesses to a two person foot chase turned out to be something of bluff, or a dud if you consider they presented W1’s vague testimony as much of anything, and the “other” I guess was the ear witness RJ/W8/DD.

        I found her (W8) credible however and hope the jury does as well.

        I’m kind of looking forward to seeing if Crump can be bamboozled or not on the stand. He is no fool and will be an interesting foil to West or MOM if they go mano a mano.

        Perhaps the state will score serious points on rebuttal, but I dont feel the defense will call many substantive witness or delve into relevant topics much.

        sigh. I told whonoze on leatherman that I felt like Charlie Brown when Lucy is holding the football and telling him that THIS time she won’t yank it away.

        • wassointeresting
          July 5, 2013 at 9:51 PM

          Watch here 43:50 forward. Actually, here Mantai does mention a following through the neighborhood in the car! He was talking about evidence of ill will and rebutting O’Mara’s contention that most cases where there’s ill will, the two parties have to know each other. Mantai says sure, GZ thought he knew TM as an effing punk and that “he had enough, enough to stop his trip to the grocery store, IF in fact that was where he was going, to follow TM as he walked through the neighborhood in his car, to get out of his car, in the rain, follow him, and as the witnesses mentioned, pursue him and made contact with him, and grabbed him. He had enough in his heart to do all that.”

    • July 5, 2013 at 9:22 PM

      Did someone ask for the defence’s timeline ?

      • July 5, 2013 at 9:39 PM

        I hate that timeline as it is meant to hide where the pain is for GZ:
        1) The start of his NEN is not shown as a break in inserted supposedly because nothing of interest happened before GZ says “Now he’s staring at me”.
        2) No break is inserted between “he ran” and the end of the call but nothing of interest is show as “actually, could they call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at?”.
        3) A break is inserted between the end of the NEN call and the end of W08’s call making that time gap looking much shorter that it actually is.

        Please use that timeline: http://i.imgur.com/aDg2M9qh.png

        It has breaks at multiple locations but they are not intended at hiding anything.

        I also have that one that zooms in the 1st 2 minutes of the call: http://i.imgur.com/VPhmXh.png

        • July 6, 2013 at 9:25 AM

          I agree that their timeline is just as deliberately deceptive as it can be. It’s a crude attempt at sleight-of-hand and distraction. One wonders if any jury member would do the work you have done, tchoupi…

          Although if we are going to be thorough I’m glad to see the second one, which includes this exchange:

          “he’s near the clubhouse right now? / yes, now he’s coming towards me” on your timeline. It’s a vital exchange which places one or both players quite well on the map.

          As for the prosecution’s timeline, from what I could glean at a blurry glance/ screen shot it only has eight bullet points. I wonder what they are? If the exchange I noted above isn’t there, I’ll be very disappointed.

      • blushedbrown
        July 5, 2013 at 10:01 PM


        • blushedbrown
          July 5, 2013 at 10:09 PM

          It wasn’t me but thanking you anyway!

        • July 9, 2013 at 10:29 PM

          Blushed Brown, sorry to trouble but my for some unknown reason my ip address is apparently being flagged up as spam by the spam guard so for the past two days any comments I make unless replying to a blogger’s reply to me on the notifications page they do not register on the page.

          According to WP the owner of the blog has to approve (accept) at least one of my comments in the spam box and I will be free. It worked on Xena’s so she knows what to do. Xena, Faux, Cielo I think they’ve all emailed the professor to no avail.

          You may not get this and it may not work either but I am posting to as many as bloggers I can because if you all reply to any of the professor’s or Cranes’s posts with my plight I could be vocal again.

        • blushedbrown
          July 9, 2013 at 11:13 PM

          will do!!

        • July 9, 2013 at 11:14 PM

          Ta, BB

        • blushedbrown
          July 9, 2013 at 11:22 PM


        • fauxmccoy
          July 9, 2013 at 11:43 PM

          @gbrbsb — i am so sorry you are still struggling with this. i have received no responses to the multiple emails sent and just wanted you to know that. 😦

        • July 9, 2013 at 11:53 PM

          Thnx faux. It is very frustrating. Xena and Whonoze have got me back posting again on their blogs because it was the spam thing. Don’t forget if you catch sight of him or Crane, all he has to do is accept/approve one or more of my posts in his Spam box and i’ll be back posting again… I hope!

        • fauxmccoy
          July 9, 2013 at 11:56 PM

          @gb — a new thread was started for the afternoon. i try to keep up with it as stuff comes in and did not see anything. i can only assume his inbox is so overwhelming that he cannot keep up with it and i know he doesn’t have any other email addy than the one he keeps for the blog. i wish there was more that i could do.

        • July 10, 2013 at 12:00 AM

          A chain post with a small explanatory text. I reply to 10 posters and they to 10 more until PL or Crane say… wad de fuk goen on! 😉

      • wassointeresting
        July 5, 2013 at 10:06 PM

        Actually, I think Willisnewton was asking for the PROSECUTION’S timeline. It was a chart that BDLR flashed to the court quickly just to enter into evidence along with the wind/rain conditions from the weather station that night. This was right before the state rested it’s case today and it was not discussed or presented to the jury. We only saw a glimpse of it as BDLR walked by the camera, but that was it.

        • July 5, 2013 at 10:24 PM

          Oooops, reminds me of my school reports, “must pay more attention!”. No I didn’t see the State’s one, but sure would like to, so maybe they’ll use it to rebut the defence’s timeline.

        • July 9, 2013 at 10:30 PM

          WSI, sorry to trouble but my for some unknown reason my ip address is apparently being flagged up as spam by the spam guard so for the past two days any comments I make unless replying to a blogger’s reply to me on the notifications page they do not register on the page.

          According to WP the owner of the blog has to approve (accept) at least one of my comments in the spam box and I will be free. It worked on Xena’s so she knows what to do. Xena, Faux, Cielo I think they’ve all emailed the professor to no avail.

          You may not get this and it may not work either but I am posting to as many as bloggers I can because if you all reply to any of the professor’s or Cranes’s posts with my plight I could be vocal again.

        • wassointeresting
          July 9, 2013 at 10:32 PM

          Sorry you’re having so much trouble gbrbsb. I don’t post over at Leathermans (for MANY reasons), and it seems like you’re getting through here on Whonoze’s blog. Good luck.

        • July 10, 2013 at 12:08 AM

          Thanks for the sympathies, no sooner I read your post I rushed and tested and… yes, yes, yes, whonoze must have fixed it. I have a VOICE again… at least here… at least for now!

          (Sorry, have to keep some reserve, I’m just not one of those “under all this horse shit there must be a pony” types)

      • July 5, 2013 at 10:54 PM

        Well it isn’t all to scale, as there are two ellipses marked by breaks in the scale along the bottom, but it seems factual, and devoid of added commentary or assumptions. It actually shows, as per the Singleton/Serino interview, that GZ gets out of his truck to follow TM after TM started running, not to get an address. It also shows that the time between the end of Rachel’s call to TM and the beginning of Jenna’s 911 call is just enough for the physical struggle to have begun and progressed beyond the point where John came out and yelled at the two men.

        I can’t imagine what West expects to make out of it, other than following the Treeper logic that a) since two minutes pass between the end of GZ’s NEN call and disconnect between TM and RJ, and b) that would have been more than enough time for TM to get home from any position along the dogwalk, therefore TM must have ‘doubled-back’ and attacked GZ. Of course, that gap doesn’t prove anything of the sort. GZ was pursuing TM. TM took evasive action. He didn’t know where GZ was any more than GZ knew where he was. GZ easily could have continued looking for TM during the remainder of his call, spotted TM about a minute after he hung up with Sean, and caught up to TM about 30 seconds after that. All things taken into account that’s more plausible than TM hiding in 2 ft tall bushes planted right next to the side of a building lying in wait to sucker-punch GZ.

        Well, we’ll get to see what West has on his tortured little mind next week, i guess.

        • July 6, 2013 at 3:01 PM

          I reckon the defence will have to go treepers if they are to explain the missing two minutes. Curious their facility to brush away something inconvenient for GZ’s side that for the other is an original sin, so while GZ stays on RVC to get one of his torches that didn’t work for him on the going to work for him on the coming back, Trayvon, without any torch, doubles back to ambush a creepy guy he ran away from, without knowing he would return let alone the same way; or Rachel who made up hearing “the grass” as the phone is dragged, while others hear “the grass” during the scuffle without any challenge. But the real killer, while it is absurd to think that GZ for no reason, obviated that of his wanting to stop him from getting away of course, would accost and/or assault Trayvon, it is apparently the most reasonable thing in the world to assume Trayvon without, any provocation, all of a sudden turns psycho and tries to kill GZ, up close and personal with his bare hands no less.

          BTW, the 2ft bushes wouldn’t even be enough even for a kid to take a discreet pee behind, as during the State’s case we learned for the first time, or at least I did, that they are covering the air-conditioning units… no place to hide there then.

        • July 9, 2013 at 9:44 PM

          whonoze, I’m desperate.

          My ip address (or handle or email) is being flagged as spam by WP’s spam guard. I have the same at the lounge, and it was happening at Xena’s too but she fixed it by “accepting” one or more of my comments in her spam box.

          Could you please have a look and see if you can free me too because I’ve been two days only able to reply to replies in my notification bar/page. I just asked willis to ask you for me not realising I still had a reply from you further back in my notifications.

          I so so hope you get this because I am so frustrated and I can’t get hold of PL so I doubt it’s gonna get fixed quick over there. Thnx for your patience.

  3. fauxmccoy
    July 5, 2013 at 8:48 PM

    i have a script for clonazepam on the bedside table — am stuffing a few in my hard drive to send your way whonoze.

    your second paragraph truly speaks to me. i cannot stand any more overwrought, factually challenged rants for much longer. i have loved fred’s blog, but i loved it as it was pre-trial and have little tolerance for the johnny come latelys. it feels positively bi-polar there with one portion convinced the state is deliberately blowing it or that some higher being will make everything right in the end. middle ground, honest debate, a basic understanding of the legal process itself seem like a thing of the past.

    now i have ranted enough, so have a sierra nevada with a klonopin chaser on me, because we all know that when the warning label suggests to use caution with alcohol, that just means it makes it all better.

    peace out.

    • July 5, 2013 at 9:07 PM

      A saved-up vacadin and a pint of the local IPA here. Wish it were dilaudid. And a case of cheap Lone Star but my system can’t handle that. My spirit however wants the world to go away.

      I think it’s a risky strategy saving the main event for the closing argument. I would have preferred a lengthy round with Gilbreth as the man on the white horse, coming in to present the FLDE like it were the answer to J Edgar Hoover’s boys.

      But as whonoze says, the defense won’t have a chance to rebut anything that way. I doubt they understand what is happening. I feel bad talking about it sometimes but I don;t think anyone connected to the case reads this stuff. If they did, we would have heard a lot more from the prosecution this week.

  4. July 5, 2013 at 9:07 PM

    I honestly believe that the state doesn’t care much about what happened before GZ left his truck.

    Maybe because of all the hard work I put at squeezing data juice out of the cctv, it became central to my views on the case. However, it is also clear that it is a huge task to defend the conclusions.
    You may be able to show that GZ did not parked in front of the clubhouse.
    You can show that someone drove amazingly slowly in front the clubhouse and that his car could indeed be a Honda Ridgeline. You can show that someone stopped for 10sec by the mailboxes. And you can show that all those weird events happen to have taken place within the 2min leading to the NEN call.
    I’m not convinced we have a strong enough ground concerning the back-and-forth in front of the clubhouse and the u-turn and park facing the clubhouse.

    In the end, using the videos may be too risky. It’s only recently that I realized that there are much more important fights to fight.

    All those little lies that should not even exist, like when he stated to Serino that he has an associate degree, are better windows to his mind.

    The way that his narratives drop the blame on dispatcher Sean or on God show another aspect of this individual which by the way is confirmed by previous situations his been through like when he was arrested for battery on an Ofc.

    Closer to the events, his story about looking for an address and his claim that he was merely going back to his truck when he was approached are clearly contradicted by his recorded NEN call and by the timing of the various calls involved.

    The savage attack he underwent in his claim is far from being backed up by the wounds he got. There are so many witnesses and experts who testified about how well the man was doing in the minutes, hours and-days after the killing that this is a lost battle for him already.

    The claim that he ignored the kid was dead, is another war worth to fight for. Many witnesses saw the kid dead. He is the only one being there and conveniently not seeing that fact. Then he goes pretending that God prevents him from killing and that he is shocked at learning that he indeed killed someone. This man did not call 911 after firing his gun on the kid. He called NEN instead. He asked to call his wife and tell her that he shot someone. So he perfectly knew that he shot the kid. It shows that he just wanted him dead at this point.

    I believe the state has a strong case without the cctv. It is just very subtle.

    • July 5, 2013 at 10:30 PM

      tchoupi, I think you underestimate your work on the security vids. The thing is, it is not in dispute that GZ turned from RVC onto TTL and parked sometime after 7PM. Even he admits that. But there just isn’t that much traffic there. The vehicle we have identified as GZ’s has to be his, because there are no other possibilities.

      Even if we grant that the back-and-forth by the ClubHouse on RVC is questionable — that it could be three separate vehicles instead of one vehicle passing three times — that still puts the lie to GZ’s story because it is clear that vehicle does not stop, much less park, in front of the CH.

      Once synched with the real-time clock, even allowing for any possible margin of error, the security videos establish that GZ had to be on TTL when he called NEN. (He’s not just NOT in front of the clubhouse, he’s visibly ON TTL at 7:09:34.) And since he says TM is “here now” by the clubhouse, and then he says he sees TM approaching his truck, that HAS TO BE HIM who parks facing the mailboxes, otherwise the descriptions he gives Sean make no sense at all.

      Not the least important element of the light element analysis is that it and Rachel’s testimony corroborate each other, without depending on each other…

    • July 5, 2013 at 10:47 PM

      That’s what makes me so angry…. I could prove the car to pedestrian chase happened with a cocktail napkin and a burnt match and a stopwatch, provided you had the NEN call recording and probably NOTHING else. George was SOMEWHERE when this exchange happened – “he’s near the clubhouse right now?” / “Yeah, now he’s coning towards me.” Ttrayvon was somewhere too – George says so. All the bad memory in the universe and all the ADHD and PTSD don’t remove a person from the space-time continuum. And it’s obvious he could not be where he claimed he was in various contradictory versions.

      But to add to that logic, we’ve got that map where GZ marked EXACTLY where he seemed to have been and then crossed it out like a guilty school kid caught writing a note in class. AND we have DD/W8/RJ telling Crump about it, and telling the WORLD about it as she testified under oath in open court. Hell, we even had Don West and Mark Osterman speaking about it. It’s the elephant in the room IMO. It;s there and no one says a word!!! I feel like I’m at the flat earth society meeting held at the Hubble telescope HQ.

      If the state can’t connect those dots, they don;t deserve to get a conviction I feel.

      Talk about your ill will! He chased the kid off the road with his car! For all we know there was nearly a hit and run accident there. The conditions existed. But GZ lied and its like it never happened because he killed the witness.

      The other HUGE lie that no one is mentioning is that GZ NEVER told the SPD that Trayvon ran at all. He only speaks to it with great reluctance when prompted, then openly lies or contradicts his earlier lies. SKIPPING AWAY? This would make a cat laugh.

      GZ went for the big lie, and he almost made it. I still think a jury is going to convict him, but to be honest if they do it may be for the wrong reasons I feel.

      • July 5, 2013 at 11:00 PM

        The map is in evidence, Charlie Brown, and though he didn’t make a big deal out of it, Rich Mantei did mention GZ following TM in the car first. Your football is RIGHT THERE!
        — Lucy de la Rionda

    • ada4750
      July 5, 2013 at 11:28 PM

      I agree with whonoze. The work on the vids can be very important. The state want desperately to catch GZ with lies. Those lies + Rachel’s testimony + GZ’s minors injuries are all they got to support their case.

      The vids are black on white proof that GZ lied. It is pure gold for the prosecution if only they know how to use them.

      They have a plan for those vids. It seems obvious if they introduced them. But i can’t figure it.

      • July 6, 2013 at 10:40 AM

        Tchoupi I agree with whonoze and ada too ! Both the videos Mantei presented were set up to start at the precise frames where in the one the car goes by in the kitchen window and in the other where two lights one after the other, one small and one large, pass the mail boxes. Mantei did ask the technician if he saw the movement in the kitchen window but unfortunately was knocked back for out of scope.

        From what I gather, the State will be bringing in rebuttal witnesses, so the case is not over yet, but with so little direct evidence, imo the State has an imperative to show GZ is such a liar that nothing he says can be believed, and if they presented the videos then I can only think they are going to get them in somewhere, otherwise how is the jury to understand what there is in them and what it indicates to be able to check it out for themselves.

        • July 6, 2013 at 11:22 AM

          That’s what confuses me. The state can only call rebuttal witnesses if the defense presents something for them to rebut. I have the sneaking feeling that the defense won’t be calling that many witnesses at all but will instead argue at closing that the state failed to present proof BARD that a murder occurred – and leave self defense essentially OUT of that argument. In other words I don’t think their witnesses are going to argue about self defense at all; just that the state’s evidence so far is all inconclusive.

        • July 6, 2013 at 1:09 PM

          Gosh willis… and I was trying to cheer Tchoupi, when maybe it’s you the one in need ! ; – )

          Or maybe it’s me that needs it… no, wait, maybe it’s the lot of us, (except, of course, cool and collected unitron (; -)), because when one is not over at the lounge where, imo, they seem to have some kind of surfeit of rosy coloured glass effect, everywhere else I go, except for TL and relevant company of course, there appears to be at best a certain amount of doom and gloom around !

        • amsterdam1234
          July 7, 2013 at 5:43 AM


          Let’s think about the defense’s case. They have nothing on Trayvon. Serino was unequivocal when asked if there was any indication that Trayvon was ” up to no good”. Serino can be heard saying under his breath “he was no punk”, in the 2/29 interview.
          So they have their lying client, killing a 17 year old who had done exactly what he said he was going to do.
          I think the defense will attempt to put Burgess on trial. They may also get neigbors to testify about how these ” punks” would enter and exit the complex.
          The prosecution asked one of the potential jurors, during jury selection, if they understood how cell phones communicated with cell towers.
          The defense has floated the idea that cell tower information, placed Trayvon far away from his path, backt to RTL.

          Right now the defense still doesn’t really know what evidence the prosecution has about Trayvon’s route back home, and at what time he got back at the retreat. Prosecution didn’t commit to a specific time through Rachel’s testimony, which I thought was noticeable. Mantei mentioned GZ following Trayvon in his car, and Guy used the double back story as an example of GZ’s lies, in his opening statement.

          I don’t know how specific the state will get, but I think we will get to
          see at least some evidence about how they were moving on TTL.

  5. July 5, 2013 at 9:11 PM

    Hey Unitron.
    This is my second weekly request for your comment about your views on where the case stands.

  6. blushedbrown
    July 5, 2013 at 9:16 PM

    following new thread

  7. July 5, 2013 at 10:53 PM

    WSI – thank for the video link to Mantei and his comments. It;s good to hear them but IMO they are weak sauce compared to what he could have said. And after months of posting at TalkLeft, I feel like you have to PROVE PROVE PROVE the “following in the car” since GZ worked hard to invent a way that he moved from FT’s to the cut thru without allegedly ever moving his car when Trayvon was moving away from him. It’s a miracle somehow that he knew to stop on TTL by the cut thru just when TM decided to double back, apparently. But the state hasn’t knocked that straw man down yet IMO. Not with evidence that has been placed into context for the jury to understand.

  8. July 6, 2013 at 10:10 AM

    here is a screenshot of BDLR’s timeline presented as the last exhibit by the defense. Don’t think that wasn’t deliberate.

    Screen shot 2013-07-06 at 8.37.55 AM

    Sadly, on a 240p youtube stream it’s unreadable but for the largest print, which carries the date. I did what I could w photoshop to increase contrast, sharpen edges, etc but it’s like trying to read oatmeal. If anyone Tivo’d the hearing as broadcast locally, please let me know. It may be readable on a broadcast quality recording.

    There seem to be eight lines, total.

    From what I can tell I think the fifth line reads G U N S H O T and nothing else. That leaves seven events, three of which are post-gunshot.

    It’s also color coded, but only the green color seems to repeat.

    Has BDLR been putting colored stickers on that big white map of the dog walk he keeps referring to?

    Where is he going with this?

    Food for thought and speculation. It’s going to be a while until closing arguments.

    • amsterdam1234
      July 6, 2013 at 11:20 AM

      They know the timeline for the eyewitnesses. John Guy talked about it in his opening statement and Mantei mentioned that John Good, had long returned inside his house, when the shot was fired.
      I believe the prosecution set a trap for the defense. We just have to wait to see if West jumps on it, doing his happy dance while the prosecution pulls the lever.

      • July 6, 2013 at 6:07 PM

        “Explain it to me Lucy” is the expression. How would this trap play out, amsterdam?

        • amsterdam1234
          July 6, 2013 at 7:24 PM

          It is like the blind man holding an elephant analogy. The prosecution knows that all the eyewitnesses were describing different parts of an elephant, while the defense thinks that the leg they got a hold of is a pilar, and the witnesses that are describing a trunk are either unreliable witnesses or their statements are just not relevant.

          I just don’t want to write it out on the off chance it gets picked up. I have a hard time believing the defense can be this blind.

    • July 6, 2013 at 9:27 PM


      The green line on the top is RJ’s long call to TM that ended around the time TM ran.

      The orange second line is GZ’s NEN call.

      The green third line is RJ’s return call to TM that ran until the time of the confrontation.

      The fourth magenta line is Jenna Lauer’s 911 call.

      I don’t know what the rest of it is…

  9. July 6, 2013 at 12:44 PM

    whonoze :
    tchoupi, I think you underestimate your work on the security vids. The thing is, it is not in dispute that GZ turned from RVC onto TTL and parked sometime after 7PM. Even he admits that. But there just isn’t that much traffic there. The vehicle we have identified as GZ’s has to be his, because there are no other possibilities.
    Even if we grant that the back-and-forth by the ClubHouse on RVC is questionable — that it could be three separate vehicles instead of one vehicle passing three times — that still puts the lie to GZ’s story because it is clear that vehicle does not stop, much less park, in front of the CH.
    Once synched with the real-time clock, even allowing for any possible margin of error, the security videos establish that GZ had to be on TTL when he called NEN. (He’s not just NOT in front of the clubhouse, he’s visibly ON TTL at 7:09:34.) And since he says TM is “here now” by the clubhouse, and then he says he sees TM approaching his truck, that HAS TO BE HIM who parks facing the mailboxes, otherwise the descriptions he gives Sean make no sense at all.
    Not the least important element of the light element analysis is that it and Rachel’s testimony corroborate each other, without depending on each other…

    I know all that Whonoze. We all know that because we spent countless hours working on it presenting our observations and challenging our conclusions for months.

    How do you present that stuff to a Jury without an expert report and without confusing them?

    The videos are no direct evidence because you cannot say from any image of it, “hey this is George Zimmerman here”. You have to understand the floorplan. You have to record every single instances of a vehicle passing by. Only then, you begin to see the whole picture and associate light events to known vehicles. I know the method is powerful as evidenced by the our ability to conclude that the phantom light of the EPH video @ 34:34 is from Raimondo from across the T.

    So again, how do you present that to a jury?

    I’m not surprised that the prosecution doesn’t even pretend estimating the time of the videos. They showed the strolling truck and the vehicle at the mailboxes awning. They did not show how that vehicle went on TTL right.

    I hope you guys are right, but it looks very complex to me to through that to a jury without the help from an expert.

    • amsterdam1234
      July 7, 2013 at 6:58 AM


      It appears the video security system is an off site computerized system. I don’t believe, based on what I’ve read, that any of the recording is done at the retreat itself.
      The cameras just pass their signal to an offsite server. All the cameras are off by exactly the same time, which would indicate to me that the drift in time, is caused by some kind of synchronizing error in the recording application on the server. Assuming all this is true, and there is some kind of logging taking place on the server, it may have been possible to establish exactly how much drift had taken place, without ever looking at the videos itself.

      I don’t know if the State has done anything to establish the correct timestamps of the videos, what I do know is that the defense has completely ignored the videos, based on their assumption they could blow a hole in anything the State would claim, because of the timestamp error. Maybe I am giving to much credit to the State, but you would expect them to be more familiar with video security systems and their problems.

      If the state was able to establish the correct time without going through the stuff we did, the video images become more accessible. All you need to do is show the views on TTL around the time of the 911 call. They can’t proof definitively that the car we see on TTL, belongs to GZ. But it is very powerful circumstantial evidence, especially since GZ places himself on TTL at that time, and there were no other cars on TTL during that time period.

      This probably is all wishful thinking on my part, but it is not beyond the realm of possibillities.

      • July 7, 2013 at 1:22 PM

        The State fully established the cameras were out by 18 mins. The witness they called from the security company confirmed this as well as which rooms the two videos they presented corresponded. Mantei also asked him if the kitchen camera looked out on the parking lot in front of the clubhouse, or something to that effect.

        • amsterdam1234
          July 7, 2013 at 4:37 PM

          I saw it. That was the tech guy from Leland management on the stand. We knew he had given a statement earlier about the 18 minute drift. We worked from that 18 minute drift, until we were sure the 18 minutes weren’t correct either.

          That is all that particular guy could tell about these video timestamps. That doesn’t mean the prosecution didn’t get another expert to verify and validate the real time for these videos. What I learned is that this appears to be a common problem with cctv systems. This problem often prohibits prosecutors from introducing security videos as evidence for their cases. They will often need other data to verify the timestamps on these security videos. An analysis like the one we did could possibly be used as verification that the time presented with videos, is the correct time. Whether the prosecution actually hired someone to do this, is questionable.

    • amsterdam1234
      July 7, 2013 at 8:09 AM

      I did some checking on cctv systems, timestamps and admissability in court. The system they had at the retreat sucks. It appears to be a common problem that timestamps are off. This system has the additional problem that the timestamps are not imprinted on the videos themselves. They would’ve been worthless even if the time was right.
      To validate the time on the videos, they would need independent confirmation like the stuff we did. I don’t know if the prosecution would’ve considered it worth the time and the money.
      The only sliver of hope I have, is that three officers that arrived first on the scene, all gave very specific information about the path they took from the front gate to the scene. Smith driving down TTL first, Ayala going right on RVC, Raimondo going left on RVC and parking his car on the cut- through shining his headlights towards the T.

      I get so upset about these people, who are so worried about their security. All they did was unleash a vigilante with a gun, instead of making the investments that really would’ve made a difference i.e installing a proper cctv system and good lighting. If they would’ve done that, I think Trayvon would still be alive.

    • July 7, 2013 at 9:24 AM

      Were I on the prosecution team, I’d not present the clubhouse videos as “the evidence” of what happened but rather corroborating circumstantial evidence of what was POSSIBLE to have happened during the NEN call, in opposition to the stories GZ told the SPD and Sean Hannity.

      I’d put an FDLE guy on the stand with the map GZ marked and walk him through it step by step, asking him repeatedly, “aren’t you just speculating here?” and have him answer affirmatively, but always repeat – “this is possible,” and then go back to what GZ claimed happened and ask, “in your opinion, is this story possible?” and get a negative response and a solid reason. And I’d ask “how did your team reach this conclusion?” And elicit the response, “through deductive reasoning ,listening to the NEN call recording and corroborating our theories using the testimony of RJ and the clubhouse videos, which show he didn’t stop in the parking lot but instead paused for ten seconds at the mail kiosk, and then seemed to return to the area HERE” – and point at the map to the spot where GZ crossed out his parking spot that faced the kiosk.

      And previously I’d have gone through the videos to ask a different investigator about the cars that are visible immediately BEFORE and AFTER the one that is most clearly GZ’s and ask them, could this car here be made to corroborate the defendant’s account that he gave to SPD? “No, it could not. Firstly his account was contradictory and inconsistent, and secondly it did not align with the NEN call recording” And then show the real car, and ask the two questions, “can this car be seen to corroborate the statements he gave SPD?” ” No, it cannot for two reasons. One, his statements were inconsistent and contradictory, and more importantly, the car is in neither place he marked on this map here.” And last I’d ask, “can this car be made to corroborate what he told the NEN call taker?” “Yes, it can, and it also matches the account of RJ/W8/DD, and it also matches the map he drew if you include the car he crossed out and exclude the car in the parking lot. Also, Don West and Mark Osterman here in this courtroom spoke to the car-to-pedestrian chase themselves as you may recall.”

      The truth is right there on a map. People can’t teleport from the clubhouse parking lot to the T. TM can’t double back and circle a car that is “still at the clubhouse.” I’d ask this investigator, “what makes you think your version is the real truth?” And have them answer “my version is possible, but the defendant’s version is inconsistent, contradictory and unable to align with the NEN call recording, for starters. Then we had the words of Rachael Jentel and the map GZ marked personally, and finally the clubhouse videos which show the only car in the vicinity at the time (did thus and such.)”

      And I’d put an investigator on the stand to speak specifically about whether or not GZ ever volunteered the information during his many statements to SPD that the teen ran away from his moving car. IMO George’s lies are almost all predicated on the idea that he KNEW that he needed to omit, obfuscate and obscure the car to pedestrian chase. The key question someone needs to be asked on the witness stand is, “But for the NEN call recording, did GZ ever volunteer information to the SPD or anyone that Trayvon Martin ran away from his car?”

      And in closing arguments I’d repeat the whole thing, adding the conclusion that “what GZ did, he blames on the kid, and when in doubt, George leaves it out.” If you take the move from the clubhouse to the cut through vicinity as the basis of what can be known factually and beyond a reasonable doubt, I feel the conclusion is that GZ established a PATTERN of lies, a pattern that can be extended into the missing minutes. It involves two kinds of lies – lies of omission and lies of substitution. He lied to omit the car to pedestrian chase and it seems he lied to omit whatever he was doing with his hands, and he lied to omit the manner in which he ended up south of the T, whether that was by his walking that way from any direction, or even if a physical altercation began at the T, since he seemed quite sure that an initial sucker punch drove him immediately to the ground until he was taken to the scene. The lies of substitution are evident when you hear him claim that the teen “doubled back” from the T. In fact it was GZ who doubled, no TRIPLED back when he passed the kiosk, returned to the corner to observe, and then chased the teen down TTL to his final parking place. In the missing minutes he’s substituted his own closing of a gap between the two for the false claim that TM approached him. This is contradicted by RJ/W8/DD’s account.

      But here you can see I’m engaging in wishful thinking. This hasn’t been how the prosecution has presented evidence, and it seems like that ship has sailed somewhat. The prosecution DID present to video clips and they could present more. We’ll see seon enough.

      • amsterdam1234
        July 7, 2013 at 9:34 AM

        Did you see my comment to you, a bit higher in the thread? I think the prosecution’s strategy has been to not provide a complete picture to the defense. The defense now has to commit to a narrative, without really knowing the State’s theory. In the other comment I wrote how I think the State will be able to enter the evidence concerning everything that preceded GZ getting out of his car, on cross and rebuttal.

  10. July 6, 2013 at 2:00 PM

    If anyone’s interested, I thought these snippets I transcribed show significant points of both cases, but am still going over it to see if I can devise any clues so I may do more (times are as of croakerqueen123’s YT video, “George Zimmerman Trial – Day 9 – Part 5 (Motion for Acquittal)”

    MANTEI 46:10: “The first line of the first homework assignment he wrote for professor Carter, indicates that the reason he wants to be a law enforcement officer, in that case I think it is was a US Marshall, is that he wants to hunt fugitives and make sure they don’t get away.”

    MANTEI 65:24: “It’s been sort of suggested, or argued, I think, several points throughout this case, that it shows that the victim was leaning over the defendant when the shot got fired, and I guess he would have everybody believe that… that is a possibility, that it is equally consistent with the idea that Trayvon Martin was pulling away at the time the shot got fired, and that it wasn’t some arizona iced tea can dragging his hoodie out, but it was his body pulling it back. In either event again, certainly open to a jury question as it relates to that. It is as consistent with the victim defending himself, as it is with the defendant and his version.”

    MOM 89:59: “I wasn’t kidding when I asked Dr. Rao what about the “next one”. That wasn’t just some sneaky question to have, that’s really the question of the case. It’s not the question of what he survived it’s the question of it wasn’t going to stop.”

    MOM 90:59: “Here’s another one. Not supported by any evidence whatsoever. Nothing to support that. But let’s just say that George was holding onto his ar… with one hand he had the shirt… and… and Trayvon was trying to pull back, he was at that precise moment, which is the state’s position, he was receding from the attack, pulling away, and George has decided not… Mr Zimmerman just decided not to let him go with one arm… and with the other arm decided…

    Are you kidding? Is that actually the state’s case that they want you to buy into and say that denies a reasonable hypothesis of innocence? That’s what he must have done. Give me one shred of evidence to support that. It doesn’t exist. Anywhere. What they’re doing is grasping for straws in a case that none of the evidence supports ill will. None of it contra indicates a reasonable hypotheses that George Zimmerman had to act in self-defence.”

    • July 6, 2013 at 5:45 PM

      Thanks – we saw how far the defense got with those sorts of arguments with the judge.

      I think the state however had better have some seriously good hole cards to pull out when the showdown comes. A straight beats a full house but this far I’ve seen the state with an ace ( witness 8) and not many other cards showing. Sybina Fukton is their queen. The defense either has two pair or a full house.

  11. Gracie
    July 6, 2013 at 5:58 PM

    At what point in the NEN call did George say “I don’t want to give you my address. I don’t know where this kid is”? That, to me, indicates that George never moved beyond the T on the cut through. He never went all the way to RVC. (Prior to saying that, he said he could see the kid cutting behind the houses.)

    How much additional time does that give George to look for the kid near the T?

    • July 6, 2013 at 6:39 PM

      We can’t know but I pretty much agree with this theory as quite possible. Of course GZ never GOT an address from RVC did he?

      This exchange about not wanting to give out his address is also part of a pattern by GZ. First he calls NEN on the slightest provocation, and then he gives the clubhouse as an address instead of his own home. It seems that Sean was trying to ge tGeorge’s last name and address in an effort to impress upon him the “we don’t need you to do that” aspect of his watch-out-for-my-own-liability laden patter.

      I have operated on the private hunch that GZ said that when he moved at a slow pace away from the T – either south or on towards RVC. We’ll never know. Two people knew – one of them is dead and the other is a liar.

      Many things are possible. What GZ claimed happened is not possible.

    • July 6, 2013 at 7:29 PM

      My views are similar. I actually believe that he went south on the dog walk expecting to find TM there. Else, he would not spend time banging on his flashlight.
      There are 2 possibilities though:
      1) He did not get his flashlight to work and went only after he realized that he could use his key light.
      2) The flashlight worked but would not hold for long. Hence, the periodic flashlight banging and Serino’s explaining to GZ how to make it work. So, GZ went down the dogwalk almost immediately.

      In the end, GZ had to pass TM on the way south without even noticing it.

    • ada4750
      July 6, 2013 at 7:52 PM

      Guys guys ,,, Look at the Google map and imagine you are a young burglar who want to fly fast from where GZ was. You run to the T, turn right, skip between houses, cross RVC, skip again between houses, jump to small fence, cross the street and disappear in the neighborhood.

      GZ thought Trayvon was such + his timing running brings GZ around RVC. Of course GZ didn’t get an address because that was never his intention. I never understood why Serino and Singleton did not ask him why.

    • July 6, 2013 at 7:54 PM

      Basing my reply on whonoze’s YT video (“George Zimmerman Police Call w. Time Stamps and Notes”), the NEN call is 4:07 long and George gives Sean his address number at 3:32, followed by his “Oh crap…” at 3:35.

    • ada4750
      July 6, 2013 at 8:05 PM

      GZ said he was banging his flashlight because he didn’t want to come back through the T because it was too dark. First time, the lights of his truck were on but not for long.

      Another easy question SS (Serino,Singleton) should have asked is why he came back this way then?

    • ada4750
      July 6, 2013 at 8:32 PM

      GZ in his video reenactment (9:28) said that he parked at the same place several hundreds times.


      Another question for SS, how come he didn’t remember the name of the street if so.

      This remark passed unnoticed. Never saw any comment about it. I was wandering if he parked there so often because he wanted to visit W6 or W11. I don’t think so now but SS should have asked more details.

      • wassointeresting
        July 6, 2013 at 8:38 PM

        Actually, instead of “several hundred times” GZ said “I have a silver Honda Ridgeline”

        • ada4750
          July 6, 2013 at 8:50 PM

          Oh! Thank you wassointere.

    • July 6, 2013 at 8:55 PM

      Granted that it would have been unwise for the State to attempt a who-went-where-when theory in their case-in-chief, the Defense is likely to present one, and the State is going to need to put forward plausible alternatives.

      The Defense, of course, is going to say that:
      TM ran down the dog walk
      GZ continued East on the cut-through over to RVC
      TM doubled back to attack him and hid while GZ walked back toward the T.
      TM jumped out when GZ reached the T and confronted him.
      Words were exchanged at the T, and then TM punched GM in the nose, at which point GZ dropped his mini-flashlight.
      GZ staggered South along the dogwalk and Trayvon followed.
      The two grabbed each other at some point between the T and John’s back yard, and continued to move South as they were wrestling.
      TM quickly gained control over the stunned and bleeding Z-CAC, mounted him and began the whole pummel, smother and slam routine.

      Trauma and ‘bad memory’ can be employed to offer excuses for GZ’s early statements placing him falling back tot he ground at the T, and for his inability to get far enough South in the “re-enactment”. Aside from the common-sense and character arguments that it makes no sense whatsoever for TM to attack GZ, and he had no motive to do so, the main factor working against GZ’s narrative is the clock. Had he done what he said he did, along the route he said he took, he should have been back at his truck well before the confrontation occurred.

      But perhaps GZ can just invoke that trauma and memory thing to say, (via his attorneys since he himself will not be testifying) ‘well, maybe I paused longer at the T the first time than I thought I did, and looked around for a number on RVC for a bit before I headed back, and maybe I paused again at the T on the way back, and it all just got compressed in my mind due to all the excitement. It just seemed like it all happened so fast, but maybe it didn’t.’

      I don’t know why folks here maintain the notion that GZ never left the general area of the cut-through sidewalk and the T. Not only does such a hypothesis support the Defense narrative, it contradicts Rachel Jeantel’s account. RJ says TM realized GZ was following him again; TM walked away from GZ; and GZ gradually closed the gap over a period of time. There simply is not enough space between the T and John’s backyard for there to have been a North-to-South pursuit of that nature, nor would that explain the presence of the mini-flashlight so close to the T.

      The State has already put forth it’s contention (In Manthei’s JOA argument) that GZ never stopped looking for TM. Once TM ran, GZ tagged him as a “fugitive” and went into fugitive-hunting mode. It doesn’t make any sense for him to confine his search to the area around the T in any event, and especially since he seems to have seen TM take off running South down the dog-path.

      The main question in my mind is whether the verbal confrontation began near the T, or in John’s back yard (in which case Jenna Lauer would have to be mistaken or lying about the sound direction she perceived — both possibilities IMHO). But regardless of where the conflict began, the State needs a scenario that fits both the location of the body and RJ’s account of a sustained foot pursuit just before the confrontation began. The most likely scenarios would involve GZ somehow getting to the South of TM and following him moving North. Just how GZ got to TM’s South without encountering him on the way, and just where the two were when GZ rediscovered TM are certainly matters open to conjecture. In the coda to the clubhouse cam video, I established that after leaving his car GZ would have had enough time prior to the confrontation to head over to RVC, walk all the way down to the South leg of TTL, come back to the dog-walk along TTL, and pursue TM North up the sidewalk at least to John’s and perhaps farther. But there are other possibilties to be sure — perhaps a route going around the building housing the Lauer and Good units, resulting in a pursuit that started South to North on TTL, and continued West to East on the cut-through…

      There’s been a lot of talk about dark the T and dog-walk are, and how dark RATL is in general. But no one has discussed how quiet it might have been. Given that TM was on the phone with RJ until the confrontation began, it’s possible (if not likely) that GZ was able to track and discover TM’s location by sound once he himself was done talking to Sean.

      • ada4750
        July 6, 2013 at 9:32 PM

        Also, it is perfectly logical that GZ said “he ran” at the moment he had a view on RVC. Why would he said that in the darkness of the dog-walk?

        @whonoze Another possibility is that GZ heard Trayvon when he was near the gap of Trayvon’s house. GZ engaged the gap, pushing Trayvon in the opposite gap and the chase continued on TTL. Or you prefer your hypothesis (one gap norther) because of W1?

        Many noticed a change of tone at the end of GZ’s call. They were saying that at this moment GZ heard Trayvon just as you are mentioning.

        • Puck
          July 7, 2013 at 12:07 AM

          The change in tone sounds to me like he’s cupping his mouth as he speaks into the phone, to prevent Trayvon from hearing him.

        • July 7, 2013 at 12:42 AM

          @ada 4750
          I concur with burglars skipping between the houses lining the dog walk and heading for the back gate, but methinks must be via a slightly different route, because if you go to google street view, if you skipped between houses on the other side of RVC you would land in the back yards of the properties lining S. Oregon Av., which are separated from the road, not by a fence, but by a continuous brick wall. Now I’m no bricklayer, but I counted lowest 17 highest 24 bricks. If US bricks are like here, the min is 3 1/2″ high (normally 4″). Add mortar gap and coping, and even at its lowest point that makes quite a wall to “jump” from somebody’s backyard. IMO, more likely GZ’s “burglars” would run up the dog walk as far as possible, skip through the houses to RVC, and hot foot it to the gate and out.

          Like you, imo GZ ran to RVC to see if he could catch sight of Trayvon scarpering towards the back gate, but when he got there Trayvon was nowhere to be seen, and imho, that is where he disappointedly says, “He ran!”. From there I believe he continued towards the gate slapping his torch, still looking to see Trayvon. When he gives his house number he may be near a dark gap going back to the dog walk thus, “Oh crap… I don’t know where this kid is”. Then, just as he is finalising a meeting point with Sean, either he realises Trayvon couldn’t have made it out, or he hears him, and torch in hand cuts between houses back to the dog walk, and we know how it went from there!

        • ada4750
          July 7, 2013 at 5:40 AM

          @gbrbsb There is a portion of Oregon where the fence is very easy to jump. Also, someone would want to “run” as little as possible on the street. I agree with everything else.

      • ada4750
        July 6, 2013 at 10:00 PM

        Also sound travels better in moist air.

      • July 7, 2013 at 12:53 AM

        Probably not important but saw this while having a nosey at TL. I recall hearing GZ say it at the time and I heard it again last week during trial. I also recall he had one of his Freudian slips about going down the dog walk but it wasn’t this because I remember it and that one he corrected. Any one recall if this apparent contradiction was explained, I mean, I can’t recall GZ ever calling the “cut through” the “dog walk” or does he ?

        Interview SPD 2/26-1, 12:59-13:29

        Zimmerman: And I, I had gone where, through the dog walk where I normally walk my dog, and walked back through to my street, the street that loops around. And he said “We already have a police officer on the way.” So I said “OK.” I told, they said “Would you like a police officer to meet you?” And I said “Yes.” And I told them where my car was, and the make and the model.

        Singleton: Mmmhmm.

        Zimmerman: So I was walking back through to where my car was. And he jumped out from the bushes.

  12. Gracie
    July 6, 2013 at 8:17 PM

    George knew TM went down the dog walk. He told the police that on the walkthrough. I think he stood around the dog walk area while he was on the phone with NEN. Trayvon could have been hiding in the shadows in the same general area because he had just gotten a call back from RJ. GZ gets the big flashlight to work and spots TM.

  13. July 7, 2013 at 9:43 AM

    Many things are possible. What GZ claims happened is not possible.

    I’m so tired of “they went thataway” pet theories regarding the “missing minutes”. Even my own pet theories. (I realize they are impossible to resist.)

    I’m glad it was said in court, “only two people know what happened. One of them is dead and the other is a liar.”

    But proving the fact that he is a liar is BEST presented by a “they went thataway” argument that concerns the move from clubhouse vicinity to cut through area.

    I’m sure that the jury does not YET understand this distinction. And to me this means that the state has not been doing their job as well as they could.

    I’d like to discuss the future strategies that are possible by the state. Clearly they can score many points by presenting rebuttal witnesses, but I’m not sure the defense will give them the opening to do so.

    This leaves closing arguments as the only time the state can present a connect the dots narrative. And closing arguments are opinion, not evidence. Have they blown it? Possibly, but not completely. I do however feel they blew the best opportunity they had to present important evidence.

    I’m looking forward to seeing how aggressively the state rebuts the defense’s witnesses, and hope that the defense calls many witnesses. The more they call, the more the state can knock them down I feel.

    • amsterdam1234
      July 7, 2013 at 10:55 AM

      The defense’s strategy has been to obfuscate and confuse. It looks like the State’s strategy is to not give the State’s theory, before the defense puts up their case. Now the defense has to commit to a narrative.
      Once Nelson allowed the hearsay statements from Smith and Manola in, the State had to enter all GZ’s statements. The hearsay statements would’ve been enough for a self-defense instruction, and the risk that GZ would not testify would’ve been too great. Now all GZ’s lies are out there, and the defense will have to put up some kind of case.

      The State did depose all the defense’s witnesses, but the defense is trying to catch up with deposing the State’s witnesses.

      So who do you think the defense will call? Did you notice they have a YouTube video and an ABC video from Austin listed on their 2nd discovery dump?

    • July 7, 2013 at 11:40 AM

      Many things are possible.

      My virtual GZ found >48,000 possible ways to John Good’s back yards from the end of the NEN call to the start of the scuffle: http://i.imgur.com/HSNirZCh.jpg

      Yet, what GZ claims is not one of those possibilities.

      Unless, he did not really want to go back to his truck immediately. That’s what this figure basically says.

  14. July 7, 2013 at 10:52 AM

    Thanks Amsterdam for looking at the technical issues with the cctv.

    I believe that we did a rather good job with timing the videos and understanding what they are showing.
    It is definitely true that GZ was on TTL when his NEN call connected and that he made a halt by the mailboxes awning right before getting dispatch.
    It is definitely true that there is s spike of traffic around the clubhouse in the 2min before the NEN call connected and that during that time one car that coincidentally looks like GZ’s was strolling at humane pace in front of the clubhouse.

    I see no convincing indication of a tip off. So, to me, if GZ was driving that slow and TM was at the mailboxes out of his view, then GZ was a freak. I know it has been news report about some of GZ’s neighbors complaining about his NW creepy methods.

    I listened to the NEN call again to timestamp his flashlight banging. What I got is that he turns it on or at least tries to turn it on at 2:42 seconds after he stopped running. Then, 2:47, 3:05 & 3:09. Then, there is no more banging all the way to the end of the recording nearly 1 minute later.
    Therefore, in contradiction to his claim made to Serino, he did not spent his last minute with Dispatcher Sean trying to get his flashlight on while on RVC before heading back to his truck.
    The claim that his truck’s headlight helped him going though the dark sidewalk is also a fallacy as the Honda Ridgeline specs clearly say the lights are on for 15sec. He did not even have time to get to the T in 15sec.
    It would be interesting to search for any indication that he got his key light within the last minutes of his NEN call.

    • amsterdam1234
      July 7, 2013 at 11:03 AM

      I think we did a very good job. I was very excited when we got confirmation that Raimondo was using his headlights to light up the T area. That was another bit of confirmation.
      Did you hear Manola’s testimony that GZ dropped his phone on the ground, when Smith arrived? The prosecution made it a point to get it in and the defense made sure to point out, that that was the normal thing to do.
      It makes me wonder if the State is going to use that to show GZ was planting evidence at the T.

      • July 7, 2013 at 11:18 AM

        The phone dropped on the grass is something that puzzles me. I should listen to it again.
        I indeed remember GZ telling that story. But I also remember MoM asking T. Smith about GZ having his phone in his hand

        • Gracie
          July 7, 2013 at 7:29 PM

          I wonder if he dropped his keys and little flashlight there too?

        • July 7, 2013 at 8:37 PM

          Funny you should mention the phone tchoupi. I was just looking on your site for the evidence page… gone ! Has it gone for good or are you just updating? I was looking to see if you had included Trayvon’s earbuds and at what distance his phone was.

        • July 7, 2013 at 8:59 PM

          I made a mistake… the evidence page is there, safe and sound, just for some reason I didn’t recognise the thumbnail, and when I saw only 53 pages I thought I remembered 54. Really must get some sleep one of these days!

    • amsterdam1234
      July 7, 2013 at 11:09 AM

      He may have just been prowling around. It is possible that Shellie was on her way out and called him, but I just think it was too early. It appeared dry in the pool video and it didn’t start raining hard until around the time the 6:54 call begins.

      • July 7, 2013 at 8:55 PM

        You’ve made a valuable point that bears exploring. If Shellie is the one who saw TM entering the complex at 6:48 – which seems completely plausible to me, by the way, was it raining at that time?

        According to “our” time sync efforts, when do the recordings begin? I can’t recall offhand. What about on the M&O bank videos and the other videos – when was it raining hard?

        Shellie could have seen TM moving down RVC to the clubhouse. There’s no indication that she actually saw him enter the complex via the short cut at all – most of that story comes from another incident, the window-peeper story.

        The story of the rain as heard by W8/RJ/DD is a general one. Certainly when TM was under the mail kiosk she seems to recall with certainty that it was raining then – and the pool video bears this out.

        One thing the phone records show is that GZ and Shellie were probably not at home mentoring to the needy before 7PM if they were calling one another and texting back and forth.

        I don’t think there’s anything difficult or unlikely to say that the 6:48 call was a tip-off from Shellie, who was arriving or leaving the RATL while GZ was elsewhere, a few minutes away. Heck, maybe he was at Target and the car was full of groceries. Maybe he was getting loaded at the bar, who can say?

      • July 8, 2013 at 12:18 AM

        According to the closest 2 weather stations rain ramped up from ~6:30p to ~7:15p.

      • July 8, 2013 at 1:12 AM

        What’s rain got to do with it? We know TM entered the RATL and we know GZ trolled the mail kiosk, but claimed he saw the teen elsewhere first. Nothing he says is reliable except some of what’s on the NEN call. RJ/W8/DD says trayvon sheltered from rain under “a mail thing.” It was raining at least some around that time.

        If you are doubting the idea that Shellie’s 6:48 call could be the tipoff based on something about the rain I’m just not seeing it.

        But it’s late and i am tired – sorry if I don’t make sense

        • amsterdam1234
          July 8, 2013 at 1:37 AM

          It is possible that Trayvon entered the RTL at the time Shellie called, but you can really see the rain coming down hard around the 6:54 time. It just matches Rachel’s description better.

          Shellie got of the phone at 6:51, that would’ve meant it took GZ about 15 minutes before he got out of the car to go look for Trayvon.

          It doesn’t mean that GZ wasn’t tipped off. Shellie could’ve called him on her way home, saw Trayvon at a later time as she entered the complex and told him when she got home.
          It could’ve been Osterman that saw Trayvon, on his way to GZ. Osterman’s story has so many holes in it, I don’t believe his account of how and when he got there.
          It could’ve been someone who knew where GZ lived, but didn’t know his phonenumber, and decided to just knock on his door.

          I just think that Shellie’s 6:49 call may not have been the tip off.

        • amsterdam1234
          July 8, 2013 at 4:04 AM

          By the way, here are those video clips with Austin, that the defense has on their discovery list.

          I think they want to use it to impeach Austin, if he changes his testimony to what Cheryl Brown has said, and denies that the person he saw was wearing a red top.

          Looks to me, the defense wants to nail that red top.

          Shouldn’t it be splainin’ instead of explaining, or do I have my Lucy’s wrong?

  15. July 7, 2013 at 8:43 PM

    Does anyone here recall when and who disclosed Trayvon’s earbuds were found still in ears, i.e. whether State’s opening or a law enforcement officers or other witness? And was his phone more or less near his body with or without earbuds attached ?

    I just had the following comment deleted over at TL (not the zimmerman blog as I am not a member) without any explanation, and I am trying to work out why. I could have sworn we heard his earbuds were in his ears during trial and that his phone was not far away, so the comment could not have been the usual “facts not in evidence”… or could they ?

    Yet, TM’s earplugs were still in his ears and his phone beside him where he was shot… not indicative of someone planning to attack but very indicative of someone taken off guard !

    • wassointeresting
      July 7, 2013 at 9:04 PM

      I don’t remember anyone saying that the earbuds were still in TM’s ears. I recall that they mentioned in the trial that they were found next to his head. I don’t remember if it was opening statement or during witness testimony though.

      • July 7, 2013 at 9:12 PM

        Thnx wsoi, so I got “in” wrong, and IF in openings not factual.

      • amsterdam1234
        July 8, 2013 at 1:13 AM

        I believe it was John Guy who said it.

        • July 8, 2013 at 9:31 AM

          Amsterdam, sorry to bother but could you ask the professor over at the lounge if he has banned me ? I have posted 4 comments so far and none of them register. If he hasn’t banned me even by accident maybe he could look to see what could be happening… maybe there’s a setting for overseas or sumpin !

        • amsterdam1234
          July 8, 2013 at 9:34 AM

          Are you posting from a different computer?

        • July 8, 2013 at 9:36 AM

          Nope, but I just replied to someone and it worked and like by magic all previous three appeared too… ghosts in the machine!

        • amsterdam1234
          July 8, 2013 at 9:39 AM

          I just posted your question. Glad it is solved.

        • July 8, 2013 at 9:44 AM

          we keep crossing because I checked again and it hasn’t fully resolved… but thnx again.

        • July 8, 2013 at 9:43 AM

          Real ghosts because the other 3 comments have disappeared again… I’m gonna wait for PL to post something and ask him about it, but thnx for help.

          Did you hear during direct MOM referred to “voices” (plural) in the background which he very quickly corrected to “voice” (singular)… I don’t understand why neither State or defence make it clear to the jury there are two voices and that there are non verbal “screams” on the tape which does not cover “crying out/yelling” for help !

        • July 8, 2013 at 9:34 AM

          Sorry again amsterdam, it has started working again when I tried a reply to another blogger instead of just a separate comment… sorry!

    • July 7, 2013 at 9:53 PM

      Don’t expect explanations from Jeralyn Merritt. Not to put too fine a point on it, but she’s not really what I’d call an impartial moderator.

      The question of the earbud(s) is a mystery that hasn’t been solved to my satisfaction at all. From all of the pretrial discovery, it was a hole in the evidence. I believe the wife of ofc. Smith may have spoken to the matter a bit in her testimony, and also the EMT or another of the first responders.

      If it was indeed in his ear when first responders arrived then that is a HUGE clue that no one was wise enough to preserve well at the time, unless of course the close up photos of the deceased show it, which I’m not sure. I have not seen the photos up close, only a bit in passing during the trial.

      But what RJ/W8/DD heard was seemingly at the very start of the physical altercation, and one of the sounds she describes seems to have been a disconnection between the earbud and throat mic, and the sound of the built-in mic on the phone itself getting switched over to. If the earbud stayed in his ear all through this supposedly violent struggle where TM rained down so many blows, isn’t it odd that the thing never fell out? But also of course, the phone was found on the ground south of Trayvon’s body.

      To believe GZ’s story and take into account what RJ/W8/DD heard happen defies credulity. A teen is talking on the phone WHILE he closes a gap to confront someone up at the T. Then, seemingly as he goes to sucker punch George what happens? His phone disconnects from the earbud but the teen still has it in his hand or in his pocket. George “stumbles” TOWARDS his attacker, PASSES his attacker, moves 40 feet or so and then and only then does the phone fall to the ground. The teen “mounts” GZ and delivers a savage beating, is shot in the heart and falls over uttering witty banter.

      Or, consider that perhaps GZ isn’t telling the truth. (Golly!) George closes the gap by moving on the dog walk in any direction. He’s got no business being there, period. (end of story)

      • July 7, 2013 at 10:26 PM

        Willis, when you go, you really do go!

        We can only hope the State has it as off pat and as powerful for closings:

        George “stumbles” TOWARDS his attacker, PASSES his attacker, moves 40 feet or so and then and only then does the phone fall to the ground. The teen “mounts” GZ and delivers a savage beating, is shot in the heart and falls over uttering witty banter.

        Put like that it makes GZ’s story sound so so ridiculous that it could even be funny if it weren’t so terribly tragic.

        As to JM, no, most certainly not impartial!

    • Gracie
      July 8, 2013 at 6:35 PM

      Ha! I just got banned on the forums for “impermissible character attacks on Zimmerman (his weight) and other reasons.” I have no idea what she means by “other reasons” except that it might be because I have an opinion that’s contrary to hers. I’m still reading the witness recaps over there though — I can’t get up early enough to catch them on TV and I don’t want to watch them all on youtube.

      She’s quite the banning machine. She’s banned so many really intelligent posters that her blog has become sort of milquetoast and not that interesting to read.

      I’ve also noticed that she deletes factually correct posts if she doesn’t like the information contained in the post (even if it is factually correct). As to the earbuds, you can see them in the photo taken shortly after he died.

      • July 8, 2013 at 6:40 PM

        Thnx Gracie. Please, please give me a link to the photo where you can see the earbuds.
        Ether Willis or amsterdam said they thought they were found near his head not in his ears which is what I had said. If near his head I repost my comment changing in his ears for near his head, because my point remains valid and what I said was correct, that it wouldn’t be indicative of someone planning to attack rather someone taken off guard.

        • Gracie
          July 8, 2013 at 7:42 PM

          I don’t have a link to the photo and I don’t remember where I saw it — I just remember seeing it. They might have been “near his head.” All I really remember is that they were in the same photo.

        • July 8, 2013 at 8:10 PM

          Thnx gracie, I will try to search for it.

  16. July 8, 2013 at 5:59 PM

    I could not see much of the trial today but my feeling was that it was a bad one for prosecution. Am I right?

    • roderick2012
      July 8, 2013 at 9:56 PM

      tc, every single day of this trial has been a bad one for the State.

      I am one of those conspiracy theorist who believes that the State is throwing the case because the feds are ready to swoop in and charge with either a hate crime or violating Trayvon’s civil rights hence the ebook rant by Papa Zimmerman before the trial accusing the Justice Department of diverting resources which could have been used to prevent the Boston bombing to investigating George.

    • July 9, 2013 at 12:10 AM

      Today the defense paraded a crowd of friends who all swore they heard George crying “help” on the 911 call. BDLR managed to expose the bias of every one of them. Almost to a man each declared they heard no “ill will” when GZ called the teen an effing punk and a a88hole. They lost credibility on cross every time but then again they did say it sounded like George to them.

      Then the defense called the owner of the fight gym and put on a ridiculous display pretending that 4-6 hours of submission grappling and boxing classes for months on end made GZ progress from a 0.5 to a one on a ten point scale. It went on and on and little of it seemed credible at all. I fell asleep during the cross but a six year old could have conducted it effectively.

      After the jury left the room several motions were decided. Looks like the marijuana use will be allowed in. The defense wants to show an animation that seems like a total work of fiction centering only on the physical altercation itself. The hearing on this starts in the AM

      • wassointeresting
        July 9, 2013 at 1:16 PM

        I get that all of GZ’s friends will say it was him. And it was a nice touch for Sandra to cry on the stand and all, but how can she say that she didn’t hear the words “effing punks”?

        I’m disappointed that the prosecution didn’t clarify with the gym guy what kind of “scale” he was using to rate GZ. This guy trains supposedly highly skilled competitive athletes, right? OK, there have been times in my life when I couldn’t run a quarter mile without huffing and puffing. Then I was able to get up to 3 miles without stopping. I would say that being able to do a 3 mile run is “fit” for most people right? But if you ask a marathon runner about my skill/fitness level, they’d say I’m still soft and no way should I ever be able to enter a marathon unless I could do at least 10-15 miles. So yeah, made sense that the gym guy wouldn’t put GZ in harm’s way in a caged fight, but I don’t think anyone would have put TM in one either right? I wonder how GZ felt sitting there listening to the guy calling him “soft”? Of course, that statement supports his defense case, but I’ll bet his ego is so bruised right now.

  17. July 8, 2013 at 10:46 PM

    I’m back to Singleton’s crucifix episode.
    I reached the conclusion that I’ll believe George’s sincere religious concern on the day I’ll meet a man who thinks that killing to save own life is wrong.

    The simple fact that he’s been able to pull such story on the fly while alone at the police station freezes my blood.

    • July 9, 2013 at 12:23 AM

      Singleton baffles me. She might be a born again Christian type or a Pentecostal even. She’s evidenced at least some sympathy for GZ at times but its clear from the mild challenge interview that she knows GZ was at the least quite inconsistent in his account of the circling of the vehicle. I’m thinking the prosecution Is waiting for rebuttal to bring in this however. This far they have handled her without pressing much at all

  18. wassointeresting
    July 9, 2013 at 12:52 PM

    OK, just watched a bit of the testimony from the Dr. before lunch. I’d like to know how the “punctate marks” indicated on the right FRONT side of GZ’s head could have been caused by concrete when he said he was lying on his back. There would have to be some serious contortion going on for that to happen. Also he said those barely visible scrapes on GZ’s forehead as being consistent with a PUNCH and not concrete. OK, not concrete, but a “punch”? Who can really say that a long scratch that doesn’t break the skin is from a fisted punch? How about a roll in the grass?

    I love how he used the example of BABIES or CHILDREN getting brain injury from abuse or a car accident as examples of how you can get serious damage without marks.

    @whonoze, I don’t know if you’ve commented on this already, but does it seem like the contrast on those photographs (taken of GZ at the police station about 11pm or midnight) are WAY out of whack? That is, they make GZ look like he has black eyes, but some of the smaller details are “washed out”. Isn’t that what happens when you play with the contrast of a photo? The photos that we’ve seen online seem to be quite high resolution, clear and unmanipuated. What is the jury seeing?

    • wassointeresting
      July 9, 2013 at 12:57 PM

      I am hoping that the prosecution will now bring up the issue of TM’s right handedness versus that bump on the right side of GZ’s nose, which would be consistent with a LEFT-HANDED jab. Who would throw a first punch using their non-dominant hand? Then I predict the defense will counter that TM was an ambidextrous ninja fighter.

    • ada4750
      July 9, 2013 at 1:08 PM

      I should have noticed before! The laptop that West is his, isn’t? So, when he shows exhibit picture no 72. He is showing the copy of the picture he got in his laptop.

      If so, how is this even possible?

    • July 9, 2013 at 1:19 PM

      Seeing the photos as rephotographed by the court video camera, and then sent out over a highly compressed low-resoluyion video feed, there is no way to determine how they actually appear in the courtroom.

      • wassointeresting
        July 9, 2013 at 1:21 PM

        But did you see in the live video those last few photographs that West put up on the screen right before lunch today? GZ’s eyes looked like raccoon eyes in them.

      • ada4750
        July 9, 2013 at 1:36 PM

        The pictures passed by the same route when the prosecution showed them and they were quite different.

        The one West showed was a enlargement. Already this was a modification. Why not play with colors then.

      • July 9, 2013 at 1:42 PM

        its an opaque projector. Printed stills are projected onto a screen with light pollution reducing contrast and clarity

      • blushedbrown
        July 9, 2013 at 8:02 PM


        ????? What do you think? This was posted on Xena’s blog.


        • July 9, 2013 at 10:39 PM

          I’ve got more. I’ll post it soon. IMO it’s actually not a bad piece of speculative fiction. But who cares? It proves nothing and is a work of fiction.

          No one except a liar knows how this started exactly. The other person is dead.

        • wassointeresting
          July 9, 2013 at 10:43 PM

          I’m really baffled by the balls (pardon my french) that the defense would have to present so boldly that TM suckered punched GZ with a left hook at the beginning of the confrontation. As if they’re not worried at all about the inconsistency with TM being right-handed. Then again, after seeing West get so red-faced today and still talking at the judge as she walked out of the court on him, I guess anything is possible….. (yeah yeah, I know, but what GZ says is not possible.)

        • blushedbrown
          July 9, 2013 at 11:18 PM


          Can’t wait to see you post.
          I don’t think it should be in, did he talked to Jane? Did he talk to Selma, Mary. Or did he only talk to the defense witnesses?

        • July 9, 2013 at 10:43 PM

          rather humorous how GZ is depicted with his hands calmly folded on his belly the whole time TM is going all MMA on him.

    • Gracie
      July 9, 2013 at 1:21 PM

      If you look at GZ sitting in court, he still has those black eyes. It’s amazing that his black eyes last so long. Must be some sort of medical marvel.

  19. Gracie
    July 9, 2013 at 2:52 PM

    This case has been a real boon for self-promoting defense attorneys. Everywhere you look (Twitter, etc.) they are out promoting something. I’m really getting a little sick of them.

  20. wassointeresting
    July 9, 2013 at 5:49 PM

    While I think Mantei is the most aggressive of the prosecutors, he always has this pouty look look of disbelief. (he’s rolling his eyes even when he’s not rolling his eyes). His mother must have had a heck of a time with him growing up…..wonder how that comes across to the jurors.

  21. wassointeresting
    July 9, 2013 at 6:41 PM

    Holy cow! The defense and/or their animator “expert” talked to a sequestered witness John Good during the trial. Judge Nelson does NOT look happy.

    • July 9, 2013 at 11:42 PM

      That shows that Good is biased for the defense, I’d say. Were I the state I’d entertain the idea of having his testimony struck. Not sure if they could get that to happen but I’d think about it for sure.

  22. July 9, 2013 at 8:40 PM

    Screen shot 2013-07-09 at 6.57.46 PM

    here is a quasi readable screen shot of the state’s timeline.

  23. July 9, 2013 at 8:45 PM

    i cant read the times, but each line has a time listed.

    line one Trayvon Martin…… phone call
    line two Zimmerman….. call
    line three Trayvon martin ….. call
    line four laurel 911 call
    line five gunshot
    line six ? (911 call?)
    line seven ofc Smith ….. ?
    line eight Good 911 call?

  24. July 9, 2013 at 10:35 PM

    Testing, while geting more and more pissed with WP… just saying!

    • July 9, 2013 at 10:43 PM

      hey man get a mac. :/

      • July 9, 2013 at 10:56 PM

        willis, Do you really think a graphic artist working in computer based illustration and design would be seen in anything else! I’ve been using mac since the 1987 when I bought a tiny screened SE and when it wasn’t much use for zilch for what I was doing, but it was fun to have around anyway!

        • July 9, 2013 at 11:32 PM

          yeah the space-helmet looking mac was my first, too. I had the 512 or whatever it was before the SE, which I felt like was the cadillac when I stepped up to that – it had TWO floppy drive slots!

          Actually it is word press that is pretty buggy I think. What a drag on a week like this to run up against some weird issue.

          we miss your commentary and insight as the sh*t keeps hitting the fan.

        • July 9, 2013 at 11:46 PM

          Thank you willis. I missed all of you lot too… and I’ve still got to contact PL because I’m still not able to post at the lounge. I just replied to 10 different posters and asked them all to post the professor… if it doesn’t work I’m going to start a chain post or as I have suggested a “yellow post day”to bring our blogger home!

        • blushedbrown
          July 9, 2013 at 11:48 PM


          Your posts are coming through at the lounge

        • July 9, 2013 at 11:55 PM

          Thnx BB, but I am not holding my breath just yet. Strangely yesterday late like today they were getting through too and stopped working in the morning… but I am pleased and it’s worked with Xena’s blog and whonoze so let’s hope PL’s seen and has reinstated me again.

        • blushedbrown
          July 9, 2013 at 11:58 PM

          thousands of comments go thru there he will get wind of it soon hang in there

        • July 10, 2013 at 12:02 AM

          Hanging… hanging on for dear life I don’t want to miss this!

        • July 10, 2013 at 8:40 AM

          BB, I can’t post again this morning. Please contact professor everyone who can and ask him to get me out of his spam or if he has banned me, which I don’t understand for what, at least he could do it to my face, not like this.

          Xena knows how to to get a blogger out of spam, she did it yesterday and I can still post on her blog this morning so she did something right.

          PLEASE PLEASE HELP ME otherwise I just have to keep bothering you all and I don’t like it, or maybe I should just give up!

        • wassointeresting
          July 10, 2013 at 9:09 AM

          @gbrbsb, again sorry for your plight, but you must have seen how many comments are posted in a day on the leatherman blog. Although I don’t post over there, but I got the sense that the number of views on the blog increased significantly (did he say something like 20,000)? That probably includes A LOT of people posting stuff that get dumped into the spam filter. They probably just don’t have time to fish you out (again, think thousands of messages) of either the spam filter or from their emails. You probably shouldn’t take it personally if this doesn’t get ressolved before the end of the trial. In the meantime, why don’t you try logging in with a new account and a similar screen name so people know who you are?

        • July 10, 2013 at 9:16 AM

          Thnx for help wsi… I have did that yesterday, set me up a whole new email and new WP account under the name of “gbrbsbblogs” and and posted a couple of times but the posts didn’t show up either. I think that may be that when it’s a first post it goes into moderation in case it’s spam so I will try with that ID today again. But if it has something to do with a setting like the IP address then it may not fix it. But good idea I will try it again now.

        • July 10, 2013 at 9:19 AM

          What you could do for me if you wouldn’t mind is post whonoze on his blog for me as I don’t think he has so many emails and maybe he could fish me out as Xena did as I can’t post on his blog either this morning, only on Xena’s after she fished me out and it is still working this morning.

        • wassointeresting
          July 10, 2013 at 10:41 AM

          @gbrbsb, I can see you on this (Whonoze’s) blog. I don’t understand why you need to be fished out. Just FYI, sometimes, when I try to log onto this log, Word Press says I don’t have access or something like that, but then I just refresh the page and I’m in. That error message is a glitch or something. So if you are able to reply to somebody’s post here, that means you’re logged in. So just go back to whonoze’s main page and you should be able to post new messages within a thread.

        • July 10, 2013 at 12:51 PM

          What comment can you see of me here (whonoze) because I was able to make comments up until 5:00 AM UK but not since around 11:00 today when I tried again.

          I just now made a new comment, WSI, and no go. The box notes “posting comment” but nothing is posted and neither does it say comment in moderation, not that I don’t have access.

          Before testing here I tested on Xena’s blog and it works perfectly. Yesterday she fished me out of her spam and since then it has worked every time.

          On here I am only able to post using the reply box from my notifications page. I am unable to post on the page whether replying to another blogger or starting a new thread from the bottom. If whonoze could fish me out of the spam as Xena did I think it will work, at least that’s my only hope as far as I can see it.

        • wassointeresting
          July 10, 2013 at 1:46 PM

          I can see your dozen or so comments regarding this issue, the last one about being “unmuzzled”.

        • July 11, 2013 at 6:21 AM

          WSI, could you and the others please post whonoze a few times and ask him on my behalf if he could check his spam and fish me out or my other id gbrbsbblogs.

          Last days of trial and it’s lonely with nowhere to post !

          I’ve given up at the lounge. I sent a string of donations via paypal yesterday all with a message asking PL to fish me out but I think he and Crane are away.

        • July 10, 2013 at 1:22 PM

          Some good news at last!

          Yesterday I set up new WP and email account under “gbrbsbblogs” at PL’s but the post didn’t publish as being a “new” poster it would have gone into moderation.

          Eureka, today it’s there and I can post under that name… for now at least, so I can now hopefully contact the professor and whonoze myself to see if they can fish my old id out of spam so I can return to it and preserve my history.

          Meanwhile I AM NO LONGER MUZZLED… for now… touch wood !

        • July 11, 2013 at 8:06 AM

          Blushedbrown, I am asking those of you I have a reply button to if you could post whonoze a few times and/or use a reply directly to him to ask him on my behalf if he could PLEASE check his spam and fish me out, and/or my other id “gbrbsbblogs”.

          Last days of trial and it’s real real lonely with nowhere to post and nobody to share this with !

          I’ve given up at PL’s. I sent a string of donations via paypal yesterday evening all with a message asking PL to please fish me out of his spam, but I think he and Crane must be busy or away and not attending the blog these days except by email so I am stuck here in cyberspace feeling very sad.

        • July 11, 2013 at 8:07 AM

          I forgot, whonoze is posting a lot at PL’s these days so if not too much to ask, could you also reply to him there with my plight.

        • July 10, 2013 at 12:28 AM

          I remembered I worked for a while on a one floppy. Mac. Making disk copies… gosh, was it painful! Copying a disk using one of those would have made it really a “Mission Impossible”.

          And using Illustrator or Freehand where every change of action it would ask you for one of the many discs… and the clonking noise while it read it… yes those were the days when macs were still getting there. Around that time I started working a Quantel Paintbox and Suite and that was some machine even for today!

        • amsterdam1234
          July 10, 2013 at 5:04 AM

          I got my first pc in 1987. Very advanced with a 20 MB hard drive. You could even buy one with 40 MB, but as I explained to my brother at the time “what am I going to do with 40 MB?” My brother and I both love gadgets, and we love talking about the latest technology. The conversation always ends with one of us reminiscing about the 40 MB drive. I guess it is our generation’s remember the good old days.

        • July 11, 2013 at 6:23 AM

          Amsterdam, could you and the others please post whonoze a few times and ask him on my behalf if he could check his spam and fish me out or my other id gbrbsbblogs.

          Last days of trial and it’s lonely with nowhere to post !
          I’ve given up at the lounge. I sent a string of donations via paypal yesterday all with a message asking PL to fish me out but I think he and Crane are away.

        • amsterdam1234
          July 11, 2013 at 6:37 AM

          Sure, I am sorry you are running into these problems right now. Have you made any changes to your wordpress account? Did you try to log out and log back in again?

        • July 11, 2013 at 7:03 AM

          I have tried just about everything I can think of. I even set up a new WP and gmail under gbrbsbblogs, which allowed me 2 posts at the lounge and… wham! WP support has told me that the software guard they use has tightened criteria recently and a lot of genuine posters are getting caught.

          The only thing I know has worked was Xena fishing me out of her spam on her blog, and my being able to post there ever since, so I think it’s fairly safe to assume it will work here with whonoze’s, and at PL’s too but the professor is impossible to locate so I don’t see me getting back there before trial end.

        • amsterdam1234
          July 11, 2013 at 7:34 AM

          I left a message for Whonoze in the top thread. If the professor shows up, I’ll leave another msg for you at the lounge.

        • July 11, 2013 at 8:04 AM

          Thanks ever-so amsterdam, and if I could inopportune you one more time, you could also message whonoze using the reply button to reply directly to one of his first posts today, whether here and/or at the lounge, just asking if he could check his spam and fish me out.

        • amsterdam1234
          July 11, 2013 at 8:28 AM

          Will do

  25. July 9, 2013 at 10:36 PM

    Thank you everso whonoze, you have just saved my computer, including attachments, from going out the window!

  26. July 9, 2013 at 10:49 PM

    not edited into a “set” yet but here they are


    As I said above – actually not too bad for a complete work of fiction. I got a good laugh out of how GZ seems to have folded his arms on his tummy like a corpse. They should have added a rose in his hands for the complete effect.

    Note I did not see, nor do I think does the animation present the “Stumble”

    There may be something about the initial alleged sucker punch but we didnt see that, or at least I didnt.

    Apparently there is only an arrow to show the stumble. What a crock of sh*t

    • wassointeresting
      July 9, 2013 at 10:55 PM

      @willis, there was an initial sucker punch shown in the animation. TM just walked up to GZ at the T and left hooked. It showed GZ’s head and torso fling back a bit from the punch but he did not fall flat to the ground. They then teleported over behind Good’s house. I really do wish they get to use it as a demonstrative aid in the courtroom because it’s just shows how ridiculous it is. Like trying to push a square peg in a round hole.

      • July 9, 2013 at 11:28 PM

        thanks, I’m sure someone will post it soon. I agree, the teleporting to John’s backyard is laughable.

      • Gracie
        July 9, 2013 at 11:42 PM

        Too bad they can’t do the prosecution animation. That would be the one where GZ runs into the tree and drops his keys while trying to catch up to TM who is walking down the dog path.

        Anderson Cooper said something about a mistrial over that witness who was sitting in the courtroom instead of being sequestered….?? I kind of wish the prosecution would declare a mistrial. It seems like they have made so many mistakes.

        • July 10, 2013 at 12:03 AM

          I looked up the law and unfortunately that option and barring the witness appears to be the big guns. I think if he did hear the tape while there and they can add perjury on top that could be a way, but JN could also either strike his testimony or instruct the jury on him. We’ll see.

      • July 9, 2013 at 11:49 PM

        At first I was against it, but it is so absurd, I got to thinking that it may not be such a bad idea they get some in.

        I mean, a left handed punch from a right hander, and that strangely twisted back position of GZ’s “avatar” (don’t tell James) bending as if leaning backwards but still on his feet, because somehow he’s got to do the “doggy paddle” stumble thingy some 40 feet up the dog walk, and with Trayvon doing… well exactly what was Trayvon doing to him as he was swimming along?

        And what about Trayvon straddling GZ, pinning his arms and legs so he couldn’t move and defend himself. Well, that very visually described “straddle” (it’s in evidence isn’t it?) has by express wish of the veteran PA now turned forensic, but who at least didn’t tear up all the time like the veteran PA cum audio expert did, has now turned into Trayvon on his knees beside GZ, because… Ooops, guess what, with Trayvon straddling him Georgie wouldn’t have been able to pull his pistol… precious!

    • blushedbrown
      July 9, 2013 at 11:21 PM

      I like your scientific term, crock of shit.

      • July 9, 2013 at 11:39 PM

        How else can you describe the action of being hit in the face and then moving directly TOWARDS your attacker, who presumably steps aside as you do an impersonation of Frank Taafe’s DUI walk for the distance equal to home plate to the pitcher’s mound.

      • wassointeresting
        July 9, 2013 at 11:42 PM

        To be more accurate, it’s more like a boatload of doo-doo, scientifically speaking.

        • blushedbrown
          July 9, 2013 at 11:44 PM

          I learn new and improved scientific meanings on this blog. I am indebted to you all. 🙂

    • amsterdam1234
      July 10, 2013 at 5:13 AM

      And no movements explaining the change of position from pos 1 to 2. He also has Trayvon with his hoody up, while Manalo’s photo shows him with the hoody down.
      I like the technology, it would’ve been great for the clubhouse videos. But it should only be used as a demonstrative tool, not as evidence.

  27. blushedbrown
    July 9, 2013 at 11:20 PM

    The picture with him laying right on top looks sexual.

    • July 9, 2013 at 11:36 PM

      More importantly why would he ever get in that “missionary” position if GZ’s story is true? Are we to believe there was NO hand movements by GZ other than to draw his weapon and fire, while being hit 20-35 times or whatever his insane claim is?

      Is that how you “mount” someone in MMA fights? I don’t think so….

      • blushedbrown
        July 9, 2013 at 11:38 PM

        that sir would be retarded. 🙂

        • blushedbrown
          July 9, 2013 at 11:45 PM

          to quote Rachael….

      • Gracie
        July 10, 2013 at 12:49 AM

        GZ was taught to make “fly swatting” moves as shown in at least two of the videos. Seriously — is this crazy or what? No one fights like that! Not even girls! He fights like people do when they are being tickled! Maybe Trayvon was tickling him? And he was screaming “No, no, no!”

        • July 10, 2013 at 12:53 AM

          I call it “doggie paddle” over grass but fly swatting sounds right too!

        • Gracie
          July 10, 2013 at 12:56 AM

          Who fights open-handed? Did the gym teach him to punch bags with an open hand?

        • wassointeresting
          July 10, 2013 at 1:13 AM

          With all of the talk today about bruising and what not, I was disappointed that the prosecution didn’t ask the Doctor witness that if TM had sustained impacts such as the ones GZ got from rolling around on the ground or being hit by GZ, whether we would even see them or swelling given the fact that he was shot less than a minute later. Remember, he said, dead men don’t bruise. Was that issue addressed at all in any of the testimonies? I don’t remember.

  28. blushedbrown
    July 9, 2013 at 11:47 PM

    This was just posted. Koppelie’s Gym is using Zimm name to get business. WTF


    • wassointeresting
      July 9, 2013 at 11:50 PM

      That is soooo messed up.

      • blushedbrown
        July 9, 2013 at 11:50 PM

        Unfreakin’ real!

      • Gracie
        July 9, 2013 at 11:56 PM

        Yeah, like we all want to take self defense training that doesn’t teach us self defense.

        • wassointeresting
          July 10, 2013 at 12:16 AM

          Nope, his self-defense training came from Osterman, he lost weight patrolling the neighborhood. Seems like all he got from the gym was an inflated ego (it was almost sad watching the gym owner calling him “soft”, like the school quarterback telling the geeky towelboy at the end of the season that they were never friends and just felt sorry for him). IF GZ was truly as soft as they described him, then he had no business being there EXCEPT for his ego.

    • July 10, 2013 at 12:49 AM

      Aha! So they sold testimony for advertising material!

      Oh, please, post it on the lounge… there’s someone there I think can contact Crump, who can contact BDLR. GZ was a 1 or something but they kept on taking his money… It would look suspicious from the UK but can’t anyone fill in the form to see what they come back with?

  29. blushedbrown
    • July 10, 2013 at 12:23 AM

      thanks that was good for a laugh. They rode a magic arrow… Now we know how they got down there. It’s like the baord game chutes and ladders, or candyland.

      • wassointeresting
        July 10, 2013 at 12:36 AM

        Great, now we have a CNN report showing the depiction of TM sucker punching GZ and the reporter saying that Shumaker used witness testimonies (never mind that the WITNESS testifying to the punch is defendant) to make the animation. At the end, she says, if the animation isn’t used, it will be the first time in his 13 years of doing this. ARGGGGHH! It’s gonna look to the public now that there was a witness to this punch.

        • July 10, 2013 at 1:12 AM

          Forget about it jake, it’s chinatown.

        • wassointeresting
          July 10, 2013 at 1:39 AM

          Thank goodness for Google. Had to look that one up. Sorry, never saw that movie. In fact, I saw my first movie sometime in the 80s. I’m no spring chicken, but you geezer geeks on this blog make me feel like one. Thanks! (reference to all that retro computer talk today, and I say that with the greatest admiration, of course).

  30. wassointeresting
    July 10, 2013 at 8:11 AM

    Morning all, seems like the 8 am court time has been moved to 9 am. I got errands to do this morning. Can one of you do me a favor and drop a short summary here of any decisions Judge Nelson makes this morning? After all the huffing and puffing from the defense last night, I’d like to know how she responds, and especially on the issue of the witnesses violating sequestration.

    • wassointeresting
      July 10, 2013 at 9:16 AM

      Never mind, I just was able to see that Judge Nelson just denied the admissibility of text messages and photos from TM’s phone (regarding fighting and I guess on anything else) into evidence. She’s also denied the animation for evidence, although the defense can use it as a demonstrative aid in the courtroom. Two wins for the prosecution! Gotta run.

  31. wassointeresting
    July 10, 2013 at 12:04 PM

    I’m loving Mr. Guy today (no guys, not like that). His last question to Mr. Root (former cop, defense expert) was did he remember what GZ referred to TM as in his written statement. The guy didn’t remember (he didn’t remember a lot of stuff, what are the defense paying him for?). Guy reminded him that GZ called TM a “suspect”. Root says “ok, sure, if you say so” then he says “it’s just to refer to the other guy, the BAD GUY” (emphasize mine). Guy ended his questioning right there, turned and grinned. That was PRECIOUS!

  32. Gracie
    July 10, 2013 at 2:06 PM

    Zimmerman being questioned by the judge. Keeps calling her “Sir”

  33. Gracie
    July 10, 2013 at 2:54 PM

    I’m hoping GZ is going to testify. I think he needs to testify.

    • wassointeresting
      July 10, 2013 at 3:14 PM

      Oh boy oh boy, pins and needles, who wants to wager that GZ will testify???

    • wassointeresting
      July 10, 2013 at 3:36 PM

      Oh bummer, he’s NOT testifying!

  34. July 10, 2013 at 3:05 PM

    wow here come some more prosecution exhibits, big posters that may have been timelines!!!

    • July 10, 2013 at 4:07 PM

      Looks like that was Wests’ long timeline and not something from the state.

  35. July 10, 2013 at 4:08 PM

    Did anyone catch the names the state said they were calling for rebuttal? They said two out loud, polloack is one.

  36. July 10, 2013 at 5:09 PM

    No rebuttal. I’m not sure the State has enough evidence and testimony in to get a conviction, no matter how good their closing argument is. No testimony on GZ’s harassment of RATL residents with his patrolling, no testimony to his bar scuffle with the cop, no rebuttal of DiMaio (that’s what I was really expecting), no playing of the GZ “Help” exemplars… etc. etc. etc. I don’t see that enough has been done to support a BRD attack on the Defense’s presentation of GZ as an utterly passive wussie who couldn’t defend himself against a flea without a fully loaded ket-tec with one in the chamber.

    On a brighter note, we have to assume MOM will do the closing argument, so that means we don’t have to listen to Drone West anymore.

    • ada4750
      July 10, 2013 at 5:33 PM

      I do not think anyone here thinks that the prosecution did everything possible. Why? Incompetence or another.

      It is stronger than me, I can not help but think that the prosecution, not to displease his political base, does not want to win.

      Where is evidence for M2. They showed none in my opinion. The words of GZ? These are just “normal” words for someone who thinks facing a criminal. Ok, they were stupid words in the circumstances. But they alone are not enough. No more than the blow in the heart. After all, if someone feels his life in danger, he shot as he can. But there is clearly scope for manslaughter.

      Let’s wait closing arguments and hope for a small miracle.

      • Gracie
        July 10, 2013 at 6:41 PM

        I don’t think they can get M2. I do think they can get culpable manslaughter. GZ still pursued an unarmed boy who was on the phone at the time. He shot and killed TM. Those are basic facts.

    • July 10, 2013 at 6:28 PM

      I wrote too soon. West may argue the contested jury instructions against Manthei.

      • July 10, 2013 at 11:29 PM

        The more West talks, the more the jury will vote simply to spite him. Will Rogers never met Don West.

    • July 10, 2013 at 7:03 PM

      I am speechless. Well, not really. But it certainly seems that the state could have presented a better case. I’ll hold off full judgement until I hear BDLR’s three hour closing but the thing that frustrated me the most was of course that they allowed the case to become about who was yelling and not who was LYING.

      Consider that no one from the FDLE, the investigative arm of the Special Prosecutor’s work team ever took the stand in any substantive way. To me that’s just crazy. It’s as though they didn’t FIND anything at all worth bringing into court, which seems insane.

      I always thought the residents were not worth a lot to the prosecution, but had they not allowed the case to seemingly hinge on who was yelling, they might have instead stressed what the residents DID see and hear differently. To me what they saw and heard should have been stressed as a person showing ill will and malice, spite, etc by not calling for an ambulance, and for having been anywhere near their backyards anyways.

      The bloody head photo was shown so many times it was boring by the end, yet never once did anyone get asked about the cell phone GZ is holding to his ear. If that doesn’t come up in cloising argument then I’m assuming NO ONE from the FDLE or the state ever even saw it, which is sad beyond belief.

      Multiple times in the case, the car to pedestrian chase was touched upon yet never did the state push the issue further. Again, perhaps they are waiting until closing arguments to “spring a trap” but they could do a lot better to have made that clear during the time witnesses were on the stand.

      and so on. I cant fully address all this but many of you know and share my stunned disbelief that this is all the state brought to trial so far.

      • Gracie
        July 10, 2013 at 7:14 PM

        I feel like they left a lot of things out and didn’t question defense witnesses as much as they should have.

        • Gracie
          July 10, 2013 at 7:17 PM

          They never touched on the fact that TM had a right to stand his ground. He had a right to self defense against the “creepy ass cracker.”

  37. July 10, 2013 at 7:11 PM

    The Charlie Brown inside me that still has hope for this prosecution team bringing into the case what I feel is the strongest issue – the lack of credibility of the defendant – wants to imagine how, with the evidence they have presented the state is going to make their closing argument address the “pursuit” issue of their stated “profiled, pursued, and confronted” case.

    They have entered two clips from the clubhouse video. They do have an exhibit illustrating the start and end times of the calls between TM and RJ/W8/DD. And they have presented the map that GZ drew on for Singleton.

    They have more than enough ammunition to shoot down his credibility, and shwo the car to pedestrian chase as well.

    I’m hoping they fooled the defense by seeming to not care about these issues by addressing them head-on more. I’m hoping they catch the defense blindsided when they show how GZ seemed to troll the mail kiosk and how he never parked in the front lot of the clubhouse….

    but will they?

    • July 10, 2013 at 7:31 PM

      However, I whish they put someone to counter Mr. Root.
      As I understood, the case concerning getting the ATf agent for rebuttal is not set yet. Is that right?

      • July 10, 2013 at 8:04 PM

        I am thoroughly confused as to that issue. We shall see. MOM did a presser and said no more testimony will be heard by either side.

        It seems the morning may be about the jury instructions (which will be a fight) and the afternoon will be the state’s closing. Friday will be the closing from the defense.

        But I get lost in all this, not being a lawyer and not trusting the talking heads.

  38. wassointeresting
    July 10, 2013 at 9:27 PM

    Maybe BDLR should make Mantei put on a motion capture suit and go “walking about” on the blue line here depicted as GZ’s version of TM’s path

    • July 10, 2013 at 11:36 PM

      (Looks like HLN stole the NYT’s aerial photo and didn’t credit it. )

      Whomever wrote the taxt that goes with the webpage was snowed by GZ’s lies. I didn’t bother to read it closely but they missed the obvious in so many places it’s not worth finishing.

      Yet another MSM site that misses the big picture. GZ told “the big lie,” and most people swallowed enough of it to get him this far – to the eve of a verdict that is anyone’s guess after clearly telling a false narrative that is contradictory and inconsistent to an extreme, but in unexpected places.

      Never steal anything small, I suppose is the lesson. There’s a sucker born every minute. Don’t believe what you read in the papers. And so on.

  39. July 10, 2013 at 9:35 PM

    Although I find the defense’s counter quite efficient I still hope the prosecution can pull a guilty verdict if the outline his most obvious lies.
    Here are the inconsistencies they will bring up to the jury:
    1) GZ says he was at the clubhouse’s front when he called NEN.
    RJ says TM was at the mailboxes awning when he spotted GZ watching in his truck.
    CCTV show that minutes before the NEN, a vehicle dragged by the clubhouse front.
    CCTV show that soon before the NEN, a vehicle stopped for 10sec by the mailboxes.
    2) GZ says that he sees no reason for TM be be running away from him.
    RJ says that GZ was a creepy ass cracker and that TM had to run behind houses.
    The NEN call has GZ calling TM an asshole.
    3) GZ says that he was not going after TM.
    RJ says that GZ cornerred TM.
    The NEN call has GZ saying “They always get away”, “Shit! He’s running” & “Fucking punk/coong/goon”.
    4) GZ says that he was looking for an address to give dispatch so he can meet police.
    NEN shows that Sean had difficulties getting GZ to agree on a meeting place and as soon as they finally agree on the clubhouse, GZ changes his opinion,
    5) GZ says that he walked all the way to RVC to get that address.
    NEN shows that although he never gave that address.
    Crime scene pictures show that he did not have to go there to get an address.
    6) GZ says that he was just walking back to his truck when TM approached him.
    NEN call vs RJ’s call show that there is a 2min gap that GZ cannot account for.
    RJ says GZ caught up on TM.
    7) GZ says TM punched him.
    Defense states that he must have punched him with his left hand.
    TM is right handed.
    8) GZ over blows the assault he claims he underwent.
    9) GZ has a fallacious explanation of how he pulled his gun.
    It looks to me like the state wents to press about the way the gun could have been used.
    10) GZ claims that he jumped on top of TM and spread his harms thinking that he missed
    GZ holstered his gun before going on top of TM.
    Selma saw him on top of TM 5sec after the shot.
    Jeannie & Jayne saw GZ on top of TM.
    11) GZ claims that he ignored thatTM was dead.
    records show that he was non top or near TM for 6min before being taken away.
    Every witness assumed TM was dead nbut him.
    12) GZ Talked religion vs selfdefense with Singleton.
    Nobody on hearth believe that you cannot kill to save your own life.
    That D student got a A in self defense matters.

    • July 10, 2013 at 11:28 PM

      Up to now the prosecution has allowed the defense to make this a case about who screamed, not who lied.

      As we all knew, the real star witness however is Rachael Jentel, (whose name I cannot spell correctly for the life of me.) She paints a very compelling picture of a very different situation.

      I wont go on anymore about the goddamn car to pedestrian chase here but she confirmed it in open court with the help of Don West. If the state can’t pick up on that they don’t deserve to win their case.

      I don’t understand how they never once brought forward a member of the FDLE to testify as to their findings in a general investigative/ timeline sense. With luck this is all gong to be about the trap they spring in closing argument, but I don’t have full faith that they actually “get it.”

      Then again there are the phone records, of both GZ and Shellie in evidence. Why enter hers if they didn’t have to?

      Oaky, it’s the final inning or whatever sports analogy you want to use, so here it is:

      I’ve not really said this much to other bloggers in a long time, but I always had zero opinion as to who really was calling for help. I can see it both ways, but to be honest I think it is more likely GZ calling for help in restraining the teen. I realize this is an unpopular opinion, and I don’t necessarily believe ANY witnesses for either side, it’s just the way I think it happened. I’m also biased because this was what was reported initially and so my brain heard it that way and like a picture puzzle I can’t make it “flip” to the other way.

      I’ve always felt that it’s likely people believe what they need or want to believe. And it seems to me that there are some grey areas to this case. I think the state is right and proper to back up the Martin family’s claim that they hear their son. It’s not important whether or not they think it is true or not. I think the sample is too poor to match to anyone. It’s a case of “they lie, we lie” in some regards.

      GZ shot and killed the only person who also knows, and then he set about telling an incredible amount of lies. THere’s no way to know from him whether that part is true or not. It fits a PATTERN of lies that are easily proven, where he substitutes his actions for that of the teen. He’s MORE likely to be lying than not, in fact given his track record, but we can never know.

      That’s why I hoped the case would not come down to that, to who is yelling vs who is lying.

      That’s why I put so much weight onto the start of the altercation, and the clear lies about not being where he marked on a map before quickly crossing it out to tell an impossible lie of substitution.

      bottom line:

      If the closing arguments by the state are more about who cried than who lied, I don’t think they DESERVE to get a guilty verdict. They didn’t do their homework. And they are putting to much emphasis on the wrong end of the case. I think Chris Serino said it in open court when he motioned off the END of the giant whiteboard map BDLR keeps emphasizing. “As far as I’m concerned, the incident started over THERE.”

      • Gracie
        July 11, 2013 at 12:53 AM

        You know, at the beginning of the case, I just wanted to know what happened so I tried to put all the pieces into the puzzle and it never seemed to feel like all the pieces fit.

        At the end of the day, you have an armed adult who followed a juvenile who was on the phone (all of this is proven by NEN call and phone records). The teen is dead. GZ shot him.

        I don’t really care about who hit who first or who was on top or who screamed. GZ was the aggressor when he followed (while armed) and didn’t identify himself.

        Those are the basic facts of the case. Now I have to hope the jury sees it the same way I do and I hope the judge allows lesser charges than M2.

        • July 11, 2013 at 2:07 AM

          Your comment is at the heart of the case Gracie.

        • July 11, 2013 at 8:12 AM

          I agree. GZ was the aggressor the moment he moved his car behind the teen, scaring him into running off the roadway for his own safety. Anything at all that happened after that was justified by the teen.

          But I also believe it is fairly clear from the location of the body that GZ is the one who closed the gap. His story is a lie, and RJ says TM was trying to get away.

      • July 11, 2013 at 1:07 AM

        I don’t believe the closing argument will be all about who cried for help although it has to be tackled. It will be about showing ill will, lies and GZ wanting TM to die as the opening argument stated.

        Ill will is all about GZ’s statements like “they victimize the neighborhood”.

        Lies are evidenced by stuff like the 2 min time gap, the insignificance of his wounds, the claim of his ignorance of TM’s death.

        GZ wanting TM to die is shown by things like his aiming at his chest while police was coming and also him not calling 911 and/or help for the TM.

      • fauxmccoy
        July 11, 2013 at 2:50 AM

        willis, i think we can bet on hearing this or similar

        “this defendant, george zimmerman, followed a teenager he did not know in his vehicle. then he got out of his vehicle with a fully loaded 9mm and followed a teenager because this defendant, in his mind, thought the teen was ‘up to no good’, a ‘fucking punk’, an ‘asshole who always got away’. this defendant, right there at that table, probably thought he knew that teen as emmanuel burgess,” etc., etc.,

        they have mentioned a car to pedestrian twice in testimony, i promise you, i heard it. there is a reason john guy is distracted — notice he has taken note of what every witness said. it will come out in closing statements.

        and it is rachel jeantel … with appropriate capital letters i reckon

      • amsterdam1234
        July 11, 2013 at 7:26 AM

        I am sure the shrieks were Trayvon’s. The timbre of his voice in the video found on his phone, is much closer to the voice in the 911 call, but you are right, no use arguing about that.
        I hope they will bring it up during closing statements. I am not sure, because BdlR never stressed the fact that Trayvon was at the mailboxes when GZ called the nen.

        There was 57 seconds between the moment GZ said “now he is coming towards me” and ” shit he is running”. If you use 5 ft per second as the average walking speed, Trayvon would’ve walked about 285 ft. That is just about 20 ft from the spot, GZ claimed he jumped out of his car.

        They should use it, if only to validate Rachel. Just as they should point out that Trayvon’s phone records show, the call before the last one, ended within seconds after GZ said ” he is running”. Just like Rachel said it did.

        I am disappointed with the prosecution’s case so far. But I found the defense’s case, even worse.

        The prosecution could’ve nailed it. They can still make a very strong case during closing statements. Most of the evidence they need to connect the dots, has been admitted, so the prosecution can use it.

        I do think they have more than enough to get a m2 conviction. I am just not impressed, and disappointed that we seem to better informed than they are.

  40. ada4750
    July 11, 2013 at 12:14 AM

    @willisNewton Rachel Jeantel (!). Hey, her testimony seems so far away! There is a reason why. The prosecution never pronounced her name again. Am i wrong? The defense on the contrary mentioned John Goode about a thousand times. It makes me sick.

    Speaking for myself. and i suppose many Trayvon supporters, the picture draw by the prosecution is diffused even if we are very informed so imagine the jury. In theory, there are supposed to knew very few about the case. Now the prosecution will try to make them swallow the big bite at once. The defense on the contrary never stopped to feed them. I am sick again.

    • July 11, 2013 at 1:12 AM

      That’s not true.
      BLDR talked about RJ during JOA less than a week ago.
      She was also used by defense during cross-exam at a few instances this week.

      • ada4750
        July 11, 2013 at 1:21 AM

        OK i was wrong. But she is as important for the prosecution than Goode is for the defense. And which name was mentioned more and by a mile?

        • ada4750
          July 11, 2013 at 1:25 AM

          Actually, John Goode is the new all categories witness star. I feel sick again. I certainly should take a break.

      • amsterdam1234
        July 11, 2013 at 6:59 AM

        BdlR made a joke during his cross of De Maio about being a ” bald dude”, that managed to get some giggles from the jury.

  41. nemerinys
    July 11, 2013 at 12:44 AM

    I’m so angry with and disappointed in the prosecution I could spit nails.

    Why was John Good a State witness? The only testimony that served the prosecution was that he hadn’t seen nor heard any punches or head bashes. But, that is something they could have gotten on cross – the defense would’ve most definitely put him on the stand – and it would have had much more impact since the defense would’ve been sure to focus on his initial statement to Serino about the “ground-and-pound’ crap. They failed to press him about the rolling; I want so much to know how that happened,if it happened.

    (It seems to me that the only person capable of initiating, propelling, and controlling a rollover would be the person at the bottom with unrestrained arms and legs. If Trayvon were truly on top battering Zimmerman, [1] he’d have no reason to roll over; and [2] he would never even try to do so since, as the person on top, he’d quickly lose his balance and he’d been utterly incapable of controlling Zimmerman).

    I also don’t know why the State brought in Jenna Lauer. Audio of her 911 call had already been played, and the defense would most definitely have called her. The State could have pushed her during cross to explain all those commands to Jeremy – “Jeremy, get down,” “No, come here,” “Jeremy, get in here now,” “Jeremy, get up here,” and “Stay away from the window, Jeremy.” I’d be very interested to hear those explanations.

    I know I have other reasons to be displeased with the prosecution, but I’m too tired to remember them all. Except one. Why the hell didn’t the State bring in paramedic Mike Brandy and put into evidence his assessment of Zimmerman’s injuries and physical state that night??? The absolutely normal vitals, the description of his injuries as “minor,” the notation that Zimmerman denied loss of consciousness, neck and back pain?

    Which reminds me… The State should have left the PA for the defense to bring in. As with John Good, the impact of what she could testify for the prosecution would’ve come across much better in cross.

    Basically, the prosecution went along with the defense’s theory of the case, and then failed to rebut it.

    • July 11, 2013 at 1:33 AM

      Prosecution got Johnathan Good to say that he neither heard nor saw punches or head slamming.

      The state had to bring in Jennifer Lauer not to let defense bring her and have the last word.
      In the end it does not matter much. She would have been in anyway.

      GZ’s normal vitals have been introduced into evidence. The EMT lady (forgot her name) testified as to GZ’s superficial wounds and normal vitals. There is a while library of statements about GZ’s good health coming out of the fight besides EMT report.

      I’m also surprised about the lack a rebuttal. It is still not clear to me whether the ATF agent will testify in rebuttal. It looks like everybody say there will not be any.

      • Gracie
        July 11, 2013 at 2:32 AM

        There are two nurses on the jury (or at least, two women in healthcare). I’m sure they know the difference between major and minor injuries.

        It’s almost an insult to intelligence to keep talking about GZ’s “brutal beating.” I’ve seen the results of brutal beatings before and they didn’t look like that.

      • amsterdam1234
        July 11, 2013 at 6:53 AM

        I think the biggest fail by the prosecution is not bringing in a MMA expert, to counter John’s statements.

        • July 11, 2013 at 8:25 AM

          I see that as a non issue. There was no MMA, period, unless it was by the guy who trained 4-6 hours a week in it. The gym owner was NOT a credible witness at all. Martial arts is not sitting on someone’s stomach. It requires training, for which TM had none. Grant the jury some common sense.

        • amsterdam1234
          July 11, 2013 at 8:32 AM

          A martial arts expert would be able to explain that the change in position John described, could not have happened if Trayvon was in control. I think that is very relevant information, but unless you are familiar with the dynamics of a ground fight, I would not expect you to know about that, no matter how much common sense you have.

    • amsterdam1234
      July 11, 2013 at 6:56 AM

      I believe there are some rules in Florida that require the State to not exclude witnesses that have exculpatory evidence.

    • July 11, 2013 at 8:22 AM

      I think the prosecution called all the witnesses of fact so that the defense would only be left with witnesses of opinion. It’s a tactic that may or may not have helped them. Time will tell, but seriously, what witnesses did the defense call who could speak to the facts of the case? Mostly it was a parade of “I’m insanely biased about this wimp George Zimmerman and sorry I was breaking the rule of sequestration and advertising on my website”

  42. July 11, 2013 at 1:38 AM

    ada4750 :
    Actually, John Goode is the new all categories witness star. I feel sick again. I certainly should take a break.

    To be honest, John Good is far from being a perfect witness for defense. Else, they would have not been spending so much time with experts to educate the jury about how to forget all of his statements but the 1st one. Even Dr. GunShotWounds AKA DiMaio testified about that which is not his domain of expertise.

    The main point from Good is that he neither saw nor heard punches and head bashing.

    • amsterdam1234
      July 11, 2013 at 6:51 AM

      And according to Selena and Jeannee, had returned inside his home long before the shot was fired. For that reason alone the prosecution should’ve called W19 to the stand. She would’ve been the third witness that put a considerable amount of time between John being outside and the moment the shot was fired.

  43. July 11, 2013 at 2:20 AM

    What West whispers to GZ’s hears after his bout with JN?

    This is at 05:39 in this video:

    To me it sounds like: “She doesn’t like you.” But not being he native English speaker, I tend not to trust my senses in this kind of exercises.

    • wassointeresting
      July 11, 2013 at 7:05 AM

      Really can’t tell what he said. But I think West knows better than to tell his client facing M2 charges that the Judge does like him. However, if it’s anybody Judge Nelson doesn’t like, it’s West himself.

    • July 11, 2013 at 8:52 AM

      I’m too busy laughing to hear what he may have said.

      Actually, it’s just not possible to tell.

      There are those who feel that the may have been a difference of opinion between West and MOM as to whether or not GZ should take the stand. I couldn’t say myself but if West felt the case against HIS arguments (or simply his behavior in court) was strong, he may have been either openly or secretly in favor of GZ’s obvious wish to take the stand so as to not get the blame for losing the case.

      We won’t know. Whatever he says after won’t be the truth anyway. And i din’t belive GZ or MOM will tell the truth either. With luck they will get into the blame game after a conviction but we shall see.

  44. July 11, 2013 at 8:30 AM


    I don’t know what’s going on. I don’t see your posts on this page. However, I do see them on the ‘comments’ admin page, and they show up as approved. So there’s nothing for me to fish them out of, as far as I know. My WordPress knowledge is quite limited.

  45. July 11, 2013 at 8:39 AM
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