Home > Uncategorized > Thoughts after week 1 of the Zimmerman trial

Thoughts after week 1 of the Zimmerman trial

Trying to put the witness testimony together (and I admit I lost concentration for parts of it and haven’t reviewed the YT videos of the trial) here’s what I have so far:

We can be pretty sure that TM was lying face down with his hands under his body, with GZ on top of him, at some point after the gunshot, and that GZ got up and walked away from this position. We cannot say, from witness testimony, what position the two men were in at the time of the gunshot or in the seconds leading up to it. Jayne Surdyka seems to be the only witness who may have been observing the scene at the moment of the shot, but her memory of that instant is confused. She testified she was on the phone with 911 when the shot went off, and we know she was not. She also testified that TM was lying face down at the moment of the shot, and we know that that is impossible. So she seems to have projected the sight of TM lying face down when GZ got up back in time in her memory. Assuming that John Good is now telling something resembling the truth, it would seem he only saw the beginning of the struggle. If Jenna Lauer was able to clearly hear him yelling at TM and GZ, then his voice ought to be audible in her 911 call if he did so during the call. It’s not, so we can conclude he had already turned away and headed upstairs with his fiance before Lauer’s call connected, meaning Good did not see any of the 45 seconds leading up to the gunshot.

Thus based on witness testimony alone, it would seem that the State has enough to establish GZ’s statements about the shooting are false, but not enough to disprove self-defense BRD. GZ can admit that either Trayvon rolled over after the shot, or that he rolled him over, and that he got on top of the youth’s body believing he still needed to restrain him. However, he could still maintain that he was underneath TM and in fear for his life when he fired. Establishing that he made statements about events after the gunshot does not prove the state of events at the time of the shot. At the same time, Good’s testimony does not help the Defense establish a positive case for self-defense, since the State should be able to argue effectively that whatever he saw was not proximate enough to the shot, or the screams for that matter, to be telling.

Even if the jury accepts Rachel Jeantel’s account that GZ approached TM rather than TM assaulting GZ, that would not in-and-of-itself disprove the self-defense claim. Even if GZ started the physical confrontation, since he had injuries (however small) and TM had none, the Defense can argue that GZ was merely trying to restrain TM until the police arrived, and TM was the physical aggressor once they tumbled to the ground. GZ may be able to morph his story from “He bashed my head into the sidewalk, punched me repeatedly, and tied to smother me,” into “After I fell to the ground I was dazed and it FELT LIKE he was bashing my head into the sidewalk, beating my face, and trying to smother me. If there’s none of my DNA on his hands, maybe he didn’t actually do all that. Maybe he was just flailing his arms out at me, and just banged me around a little bit in doing so. Maybe that’s possible. But I’m telling you THAT’S WHAT IT FELT LIKE AND I WAS TRULY IN MORTAL FEAR! And maybe he wasn’t reaching for my weapon. Maybe he just brushed my side by accident. But I was sure he was going for the gun, and even if I’d thought about it, which I didn’t, that wasn’t a chance I could take, now was it?!” Of course, GZ himself is unlikely to take the stand and say any of this, but surely his attorneys could float such a line of argument in their closing statement.

I’m not saying I think such a tack would necessarily work and GZ will be acquitted. I’m saying there’s a CHANCE that if the State can’t nail the case with forensics it might work well enough to result in a hung jury if not an outright acquittal.

(It’s not easy for the prosecution to meet it’s burden in a big trial. I watched most of the O.J. trial, and when all was said and done I didn’t think the State met it’s burden, and I thought the jury brought back a reasonable verdict. I didn’t follow the Anthony case, but from I read and heard about it afterward I think that verdict was reasonable as well, as in ‘Okay, you proved BRD that Casey is a lying psycho bitch, and I don’t think she’s INNOCENT, but since you didn’t even have a cause of death, and couldn’t prove that the damn duct-tape you went on and on about wasn’t applied post-mortem by the loony-tunes guy that found Caylee’s body in an area that had already been searched, you didn’t prove BRD that Casey did it, and I’m gonna have to hold my nose and vote Not Guilty.’)

A very steep burden of proof still lies with the prosecution, FL law seeming to not have the sort of “affirmative defense” requirements for self-defense claims common in other states. Thus, with the witness testimony as inconclusive as it is regarding the actual gunshot, it seems to me the State’s case for Murder 2, or even Manslaughter, will depend almost entirely on forensics: the trajectory of the bullet through TM’s body and the potential inconsistency of this this with GZ lying on the ground and TM straddled atop him; the bullet holes in the clothing establishing that GZ had a hold of TM’s hoodie at the time of the shot per LLMPapa’s analysis; GZ’s lack of anything resembling life-threatening injuries; the path of the blood trails on the back of his head, and so on. The only non-forensic evidence that seems to definitively belie the claim of self-defense — i.e. GZ’s claim of fear for his life at the moment he pulled the trigger — is the identification of the screams as Trayvon’s by his friends and family, and the marked difference between the screams and GZ’s recorded exemplar. This will, of course, be somewhat offset by everyone who knows GZ claiming the screams belong to him…

Have I missed anything so far? (I mean, folks at the Lounge can think that GZ’s lies and circumstantial evidence alone will bring a sure conviction, but I don’t think they’re capable of putting aside their wishful thinking and seeing this case through a cold objective light reflecting off a real Florida jury in a real Florida courtroom…)

It seems to me that that the evidence of the clubhouse videos, the map-and-watch evidence that proves GZ’s statements and “re-enactment” to be false, the possible evidence of a ‘tip-off’ that may lie in GZ’s phone records… all go to proving ill-will on his part, and mendacity of course, but that these are not elements that establish criminal homicide itself, only that establish the depraved mind necessary for a Murder 2 conviction as opposed to manslaughter once self-defense is dis-proved BRD.

For as vile as I consider George Zimmerman to be, I still cannot imagine him setting out that evening to shoot anyone. My basic theory of the crime remains the same: GZ was alerted to the presence of an unidentified young black male in a hoodie “acting suspiciously” by some other resident of RATL (or possibly Mark Osterman, but unlikely). His judgement clouded and his anger piqued by alcohol, GZ set out to make sure THIS asshole didn’t get away. This time, damnit, he wasn’t going to be passive and wait for the cops to come since they’re always too late. Knowing damn well he wasn’t supposed to, he got out of his car to follow TM through the back walkways of the complex, and knowing damn well Sean Noffke’s “we don’t need you to do that” meant ‘don’t do that!’, he was going to track that fucking coon anyway if he could. He didn’t give up when he lost sight of TM, probably because he knew TM hadn’t reached the back gate, and he kept searching. His adrenaline really started to pump when he spied TM again, and this time… this time the kid didn’t run. The tension built inside GZ’s head and his chest as he got closer and closer. Then the kid turned around and verbally challenged HIM! No sir, that’s not the way it goes, Asshole! YOU answer to ME! So GZ retorted, and not politely, “What are you doing around here!” As I’ve said before, my guess is that GZ probably got up in TM’s face, and TM pushed him away, at which point GZ grabbed him, they went down to the ground and the “wrestling” began. Regardless of exactly what happened, the over-arching driver of the conflict was that GZ expected TM to bend sharply to his will, and TM wasn’t having any of that shit from a pervert Crazy Ass Cracker. But GZ was incapable of imagining how he might have appeared to TM. How dare this Asshole push me! How dare he get me down on the ground and soil my spiffy red jacket in the wet grass! I will show him my bouncer mojo! So GZ grabs one of TM’s flailing limbs, and bends his wrist, elbow, or shoulder into a position of excruciating pain. Surely this will make this asshole coon yield to my authoritah! But no, he struggles still, and he’s screaming like a banshee when he should shut the fuck up and give up! And then, at some point well into the screaming, I think Trayvon gets his left hand free and somehow gets one decent pop onto the right side of GZ’s nose. Nowhere near hard or on target enough to break the nose, or even to skin TM’s knuckles, but just good enough to sting (and cause some swelling). At that point GZ’s rage bubbles over, he pulls his Kel-tec, sticks it right into the chest of Trayvon’s hoodie and pulls the trigger.

Now, I’m sure many of my dozen or so readers on this blog may think events “went down” differently than I’ve hypothesized above. Regardless, the key question seems to me, what can the State establish BRD about Zimmerman’s actions in the 60 seconds leading up to the gunshot? I doubt they can prove my scenario, or any other. If GZ did have TM in a pain inducing hold, there is no forensic evidence of it AFAIK. GZ wasn’t tested for drugs or alcohol. Etc. Etc.

When all is said and done, even if there are holes in the prosecution’s forensic evidence, the jury might well be convinced that GZ is such a conniving sociopathic rotter that they’ll convict him anyway. But it’s hardly a sure thing. I sure hope BDLR and crew have some bitchin’ forensics lined up, because even without SYG, Florida really seems to stack the deck in favor of self-defense claims (and that too traces back to our good friends in the NRA and ALEC, methinks…)

Your thoughts?

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Categories: Uncategorized
  1. June 30, 2013 at 10:07 AM

    This is a very nice summary Whonoze. Thanks for all the work you put in the case.

  2. blushedbrown
    June 30, 2013 at 10:30 AM

    Good article Whonoze.
    A couple of thoughts….

    Even if the jury accepts Rachel Jeantel’s account that GZ approached TM rather than TM assaulting GZ, that would not in-and-of-itself disprove the self-defense claim. Even if GZ started the physical confrontation, since he had injuries (however small) and TM had none, the Defense can argue that GZ was merely trying to restrain TM until the police arrived, and TM was the physical aggressor once they tumbled to the ground.

    If the defense argues that GZ was merely trying to restrain Trayvon he had no authority to do so. GZ is not Law Enforcement. When GZ left the safety of his vehicle its trouble from then on out. The jury has to consider the preceding events to the shooting. In another words, you can’t claim self defense when you created the situation. So far from viewing the trial clips, the State has so far has shown the jury that GZ leaving his car, (These assholes they as always get away) The dispatcher testified that he told him he didn’t need to do that. (following) did not meet the officer at agreed locations. The phone records of Trayvon Martin proves he was talking to Deedee reconfirming that a CAC was following him and then refollowing him. That alone shows he was not walking back to his truck. Note that at no time during trial has O’Mara said or suggested that his client was walking back to his truck.

    So far as I can tell Jayne and Selma and Sgt. Raimondo have the best testimonies. Along with DeeDee. She was honest and kept to her story. When I heard her say this CAC was following him that was honest. When she said Trayvon said, “This n****a is following me”. I believe that.

    I totally understand the reference. Even a white person can be called the N word. It is hard for me to write out how this is possible withouting hearing my voice.

    If I find a clip on Youtube to describe what I am referring to I will post.

    A couple of things I have seen that I think the State could of done a better job of and resolved.

    1) Bahadoor: the left to right business.
    If the state would of asked the question like this:

    When you were in the kitchen, and you saw figures, which way did YOU move to get a better view?

    The answer would of been left to right. Her movement would of mirrored the figures movement. Left to right.

    2) HOA president Don OBrien:

    He lied on the stand. He said that the HOA was aware of starting a NW program. Not true. In his interview with LE back in 2012 he stated he got a couple of calls telling him of a guy walking around, knocking on doors, with a clipboard. He said he had no idea who he was, then got information about him. GZ started the whole NW on his own at first, the got the HOA involved. That is how the business of the NW got started. Not what he testified to.

    Just a couple of thought Whonoze.

    How are the cats?

  3. blushedbrown
    June 30, 2013 at 10:33 AM

    @Whonoze

    A person by the name of CroakerQueen123 has all the trial up on her channel.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/croakerqueen123

  4. racerrodig
    June 30, 2013 at 12:31 PM

    Great article & I believe most of it happened this way. The actual “fight” may have several different possibilities and I firmly believe cac got past Trayvon on the other side of the 1st or possibly 2nd building and cut him off. From that point they are heading back towards the T and the confrontation is liable to have started anywhere in that 60 or so foot range,

    What matters the most is that cac confronted Trayvon who then asks why he following. As you stated cac ain’t taking no jive from no one. cac now drives this into an interrogation, restraining, ruff ’em up that escalates since Trayvon has no idea what is happening. We’ll call that “human nature” for now and this is far from just “typical teen age stuff”

    As far as Trayvon possibly getting in a swing that tagged cac’s nose….possibly. I doubt that his nose looked anything like the Wagner photo or the EMT’s would have a very different report and would have taken him to the hospital. If he was so near dearth and dazed and confused, he’d be incapable of thinking otherwise……I’ve been in a few accidents, one pulling into our Church parking lot and someone ran a stop sign and hit us in the L/F corner. The impact and angle caused my neck to recoil simply because I caught a flash of his car just before impact. My wife & son didn’t get hurt. The EMT”s would not let me go without a hospital visit. Got hit from behind in 93 and my head hit the sun visor clip causing a cut about 3/8 of an inch that bleed like a river. Same thing there…..an ambulance ride.

    I believe cac had a firm grip of Trayvon’s hoodie from early on so “this one won’t get away” I also believe he’s of the ilk “I have a gun…..needless to say it’s for a reason……so I’ll use it on somebody…..I just need the chance” Add this “MMA training” to the “I have to use what I have” line of thought and you have a mental midget, armed with a pistol out patrolling with fight training, on mind altering prescription meds, who has problems with most people, especially young black males” This was inevitable as far as I’m concerned.

    • June 30, 2013 at 3:33 PM

      Thanks for the compliment racer.

      The prescription meds Z-CAC was on aren’t really mind altering, and they don’t lead to increased aggression. Yeah, as Amsetrdam has pointed out, that IS on a list of possible side effects, but the law requires they list EVERY side effect anyone has ever possibly had with the drug, no matter how rare it might be. That’s the problem with those side-effects lists. You can’t tell the difference between the ones that are typical, and the ones that are utterly atypical.

      I’ve suffered from chronic generalized anxiety disorder for years, and I’m on a med program very similar to GZ’s at the time of the shooting: Adderal and Benzos. Compared to booze, they’re so benign it’s not even worth discussing. People who suffer from depression and anxiety disorders also suffer from severe and utterly unwarranted social stigma. Demonizing the meds that help them adds to their suffering, and is just plain wrong.

      BTW — surprise surprise — GZ has been lying about the basis for his Benzo prescription. He claimed he was taking it for insomnia, but we’ve now seen the dosage and frequency on his scrip, and it’s three times a day. If he was just trying to get to sleep, he’d be taking one of those pills at bedtime and that’s it. So it’s a safe bet to say he was having something more than insomnia issues along the lines of some kind of anxiety.

      I don’t drink, so i don’t know how booze and Benzos mix. I’ve got a pretty good idea that mixing them is dangerous to the user, but it might make the user more dangerous to others as well. But if so, it’s the booze that’s the catalyst. We now have a multitude of exemplars of GZ’s speech, with all the jailhouse calls and previous police calls. We can probably assume he was taking his meds as prescribed during most of those conversations. In none of them does he slur his speech, sound genuinely befuddled, forget the correct address of the RATL clubhouse. Yet he does all these things in his NEN call from 2/26/12. He was on dangerous drugs alright, the kind you can buy completely legally without a prescription at the corner packy.

      • racerrodig
        June 30, 2013 at 4:06 PM

        I mean no offense to anyone by the drug statement. My point is that he’s not wrapped to tight normally. His racist way of thinking needs no help to get him riled. I would bet the farm he’s had the “I have a gun so naturally, I’ll need to use it” thing going since he bought it. I know a few of them and one works with my wife. He’s been taking it to work and I had to inform the police of this since he has no carry permit. I have no doubt he’d have used it at some point with all his gun talk. Guns, guns, guns 24 / 7

        The same with his MMA training. He couldn’t wait to see how bad he could hurt someone.

  5. June 30, 2013 at 12:41 PM

    grrrr. Wrote a long post, computer swallowed it.

    Heavy on support for AMsterdam’s observation that the bet way for the pair to have moved as John Good/W6 described, and then later back to the grass would be for George to have been hanging onto Trayvon like a baby possum clings to it’s mama’s belly so tight.

    The goal for one person was to detain the other, who wanted to twist his body, push his body up and away, and in the words of the teen, “get off, get off.” This was never a fight to see who was the champion at fisticuffs. It was all about staying or leaving. Guess who was whom?

    Then I mentioned the running into the trees as something the prosecution needs to float as an explanation for face and head injuries.

    in then end I mentioned my opinion of the lawyers by recalling what Sean Penn said when asked what it felt like to lose the Oscar to Nicholas Cage. Penn gave a powerful performance in DEAD MAN WALKING while Cage was over-the-top in a schmaltzy film called LEAVING LAS VEGAS where a suicidal drunk meets a whore with a heart of gold.

    Penn said of his surprise that not only he, but Antony Hopkins lost that “I thought the award was for the BEST acting, not the MOST acting.”

  6. June 30, 2013 at 1:06 PM

    I have added an image about the vehicle passing by the kitchen window. Check the title “Vehicles passing by the kitchen’s window” at http://imgur.com/a/bcAII.
    That vehicle is clearly slower.

  7. June 30, 2013 at 1:09 PM

    blushedbrown :
    If the defense argues that GZ was merely trying to restrain Trayvon he had no authority to do so. GZ is not Law Enforcement.

    It is clear that if a total stranger follows you and end up holding on you on the ground, I guess you have the right to beat him.

    • blushedbrown
      June 30, 2013 at 1:21 PM

      That would be self defense on Trayvon Martin’s part. He had the right to defend himself from a person he did not know,following him in the dark, in the rain, yelling at him and trying to detain him.

      GZ had a citizen’s right to call police if he felt he was suspicious. That is all. What he did not have the right to IMO was to follow in a car then on foot, leave the relative safety of his vehicle, run around looking for him then confront/challenge his right to be where he was. Trayvon did not have to answer not one question to GZ. Nor be detain by him.

      Trayvon Martin gave GZ the opportunity to explain why he was following him for. He choose not to explain he was part of NW he could of diffused the situation by saying simply, “Hey Dude, I’m sorry if I came of ass some creepy dude, but we have had some issues here at the retreat and I am part of NW, I look out for the safety of the residents and if you are a resident here that would include you, so do you live here?

      I can imagine the answer would of been from Trayvon would be. Oh I see, sure my Dad lives right up here the last house by the back gate.

    • June 30, 2013 at 2:25 PM

      …unless of course you are in Florida and you are black. There you have the right to be dead and slandered. Then you need two million signatures on a petition, a special prosecutor to be appointed by the governor, and a sixteen month legal process to wend it’s way to trial. Also all the while your survivors must remain civil, respectful and not hire a lawyer to represent the interests of your grieving family. Your killer meanwhile is allowed to perjure himself by proxy, collect six figures in cash and hide it from the court, live at home, eat so much he gains 100 pounds and personally help direct a smear campaign against his innocent victim.

      This line below is where I’d write “snark” f I thought it was funny or ironic.

      __________________

      • June 30, 2013 at 3:05 PM

        Very well said. Right on, brother willisnewton.

        • blushedbrown
          June 30, 2013 at 3:38 PM

          ditto

  8. June 30, 2013 at 2:19 PM

    All of this is true, but there’s the “woulda coulda shoulda” argument to get past for the prosecution. GZ may not have been breaking any laws when he was driving and walking in his own community. And he was under no legal obligation to identify himself. And his CCW permit was seemingly valid. And, conveniently for him he killed the only other person who reliably SAW how the altercation began.

    There was no “fight.” There was a struggle of some sort, but even according to George there was no fight. There was two people with different goals. According to George he as UNABLE to defend himself at all, and only moved his hands ONCE, to draw his weapon. According to LOGIC, and to Rachel Jantel, there was a struggle to detain the teen and a struggle by the teen to “get off, get off.”

    According to John Good, and Tim Smith, and George it seems GZ was on his back. But if that’s true how did they move around so much? George claims he “shimmied” but why did he neglect to say what he did with his hands, ever? Did he shimmy without his hands, and if so, why?

    Amsterdam has it pegged. He was hanging onto the hoodie, TRayvon’s efforts to get away moved them both, and with luck the forensics will be shown to prove that to the jury sufficient for them to put together two thoughts – GZ is a liar, and GZ tried to detain the teen.

    That’s enough for a M2 conviction .once you follow the reasoning it takes to get to those two thoughts.

    Many things are possible. WHat GZ claims happened is not possible. Therefore something different happened.

  9. June 30, 2013 at 5:12 PM

    This post is about what T. Smith could have seen from the south end of the dog walk. The question here is could Ofc Smith really see 1 standing person?

    Check his video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjUvbJr2XGQ. Starting at the 1:18 mark you get a south-to-north view of the sidewalk from inside a car in plain day.

    • June 30, 2013 at 6:41 PM

      Tim Smith isn’t telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth, I suspect. If he were, his story and that of Jon Manalo would sync up better. There’s little way to prove it, but I suspect GZ got preferential treatment from ofc Smith at least in part.

      I’m still curious about the lighted keychain flashlight which the prosecution is ignoring, and the moment where GZ allegedly tossed his cell phone, in a zippered case out of his hands.

      It’s unclear to me whether Smith really had his service handgun OUT when he arrived or not.

      I’m still trying to put all this together. Any opinions or observations?

      (by the way that video is the usual mess of bad timing and speculation. )

      • June 30, 2013 at 7:08 PM

        I think I got from T. Smith that he unholstered his gun only after GZ told him that he is the one who shot TM.

        There was no mention of the honda key besides during opening statement and it was West’s job.

        Definitely true that the video is a mess. I is only interesting to visualize what Ofc Smith did.

      • June 30, 2013 at 7:19 PM

        Just remembering that Ofc T. Smith is also the one who failed reporting J. Manalo in his initial report(s).

      • Gracie
        June 30, 2013 at 8:51 PM

        Depending on how JM and GZ were standing, it could have looked like one person if someone were looking quickly. The problem for the police is that they load police cars up with tech gadgets and expect them to multitask while they do their jobs.

  10. Puck
    June 30, 2013 at 8:34 PM
    • Puck
      June 30, 2013 at 8:40 PM

      I believe 805 637-7249 is the voicemail number of Trayvon’s cell provider. Rachel’s number must have been 786 419-7236. After we know Trayon’s phone cut off after “get off, get off”, calls from Rachel are ‘pushed’ to voicemail 19 or 20 seconds later. Check the times.

    • June 30, 2013 at 8:48 PM

      What I get is that GZ’s cellphone is under the name of Shellie.
      GZ called NEN again (407-688-5070) within the minute before 7:09 and got on hold until the connection at 7:09:34 (this is not from the records).
      GZ called NEN again in the seconds after 7:18 which is after the shooting!!!
      I can’t find the call the Shellie placed by J. Manalo.
      There is a call at 6:48pm (407-731-0055) which could be the tip.

      • Gracie
        June 30, 2013 at 8:53 PM

        What I see is a 3 minute call from Shellie at 6:48, then the NEN call to the Sanford Police at 7:09 and another one to the same number at 7:18. I thought J Manalo said he used his own phone, not GZ’s.

        • June 30, 2013 at 8:55 PM

          Is that right. I thought JM took GZ’s phone and placed it back in his pocket after he was handcuffed.

      • Puck
        June 30, 2013 at 8:55 PM

        Manalo used his own phone, remember? He put GZ’s phone back in the jacket pocket and GZ told him the number.

      • Gracie
        June 30, 2013 at 8:55 PM

        I thought Shellie and GZ were sitting at home together before he decided to go shopping at Target…. No????

        • June 30, 2013 at 8:57 PM

          Wasn’t it a story where SZ was at her parents without him? I’m not sure.

        • blushedbrown
          June 30, 2013 at 9:00 PM

          She said she was at her Dad’s house.

        • racerrodig
          June 30, 2013 at 10:01 PM

          As I recall the “dinner at dad’s” didn’t appear until well into the investigation. Fogen stated in his reenactment and later on something about mentoring the black kids then he was going shopping. He said “..my wife and I always….” in his reenactment and stated in no uncertain terms on Hannity they just finished mentoring the kids, the out the door he went. I believe when they realized what implications any calls between them had a new story popped up as usual.

          If they were together, he calls her ????? on the phone…..hey, just scream…..

    • June 30, 2013 at 8:54 PM

      Actually (407-731-0055) is one of Zimmerman’s phone #. It might be Shellie’s.
      Here is a links I found: http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/5673/zimmermandox.jpg

      • blushedbrown
        June 30, 2013 at 8:57 PM

        I think that is the voice mail number?

      • Puck
        June 30, 2013 at 8:58 PM

        I think I’ll hang out here rather than the Lounge to go through the phone records. You’re a better bunch on a better online space to work out these kinds of things, i.e. no-hysteria zone. I can’t believe I’m talking to the legendary tchoupicaillou!

        • June 30, 2013 at 10:00 PM

          Legendary!!! At least wait for my passing!

        • blushedbrown
          June 30, 2013 at 10:06 PM

          Ha!

        • Puck
          June 30, 2013 at 10:08 PM

          I’ve been desperately wanting to see the phone records for over a year now. I’m trying to do a little bit of what you did with the clubhouse videos.

          Since the last call from Rachel disconnected at 7:15:43, she heard no yelling or screaming after “get off, get off”, just “the grass” (we know what she means by that), and the first 911 call with Trayvon already screaming comes in at 7:16:11, then this escalated over 20-23 seconds to when we know Trayvon had been restrained.

  11. Gracie
    June 30, 2013 at 8:56 PM

    So, where was Trayvon at 6:48 to 6:51?

    • June 30, 2013 at 8:58 PM

      6:48pm could be TM entering the complex.

      • June 30, 2013 at 9:28 PM

        Either that’s shellie getting home, or else she was leaving when TM was entering. many things are possible.

        Looks like GZ was calling NEN back when Jon Manolo walked up? But Manalo said GZ was talking, and the 7:18 call maybe didn’t fully connect?

        As I mentioned before, the sanford city fathers had releaased some paperwork from the sanford PD that suggested that GZ called NEN back after the shooting but Corey had them take the pages down when she got the case. I’m almost ready to say that was who he called.

        • June 30, 2013 at 10:00 PM

          GZ clearly called NEN just after killing the kid. This is plain crazy! Why didn’t he call 911?

        • Puck
          June 30, 2013 at 10:14 PM

          The NEN is also a general police number where you can punch in whoever’s extension: http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.aspx?page=344

          So it could be “please enter the number of the extension you wish to reach, otherwise, please stay on the line and you will be connected to a non-emergency operator” or “press 0 for a non-emergency number”. It’s possible he called someone’s extension. Still, since it’s a “1 minute” call (anywhere from 1 to 60 seconds), it could have not gotten connected to NEN, or he could have had a short conversation with someone at a different extension. Can you call an officer on patrol via an extension from the general line?

  12. Puck
    June 30, 2013 at 9:03 PM

    If we logically infer that the Alexandria, VA number is PapaZim (where did RZJr live? it could also be him) then that one is 703 859-6010. There are a LOT of calls back and forth starting at 6:24 p.m. eastern. Do we know who might have lived in Winterpark, FL?

    • Puck
      June 30, 2013 at 9:07 PM

      Oops – added 3 hours when I didn’t have to.

      • Puck
        June 30, 2013 at 10:37 PM

        Wait a second: add 3 hours for the texts but not calls… so everything’s mixed up.

    • Gracie
      June 30, 2013 at 11:19 PM

      Eastern standard time is 5 hours behind GMT in the winter. Do you have to recalculate the text messages?

      • Puck
        June 30, 2013 at 11:25 PM

        On GZ’s record, texts are indicated by a D and listed in Pacific time, 3 hours earlier than Eastern time. Phone calls appear in Eastern time. You have to go back and forth to put together the picture of the calls and texts.

    • Gracie
      July 1, 2013 at 12:13 AM

      Could the Alexandria number be Osterman? Remember O has a federal job and it could be headquartered in Alexandria. He could have a work phone with a VA number

      • Puck
        July 1, 2013 at 12:20 AM

        I can see GZ texting with Osterman more than I can with his father. So I think we can say that’s who he was texting with. Taaffe would be a Florida number.

    • Gracie
      July 1, 2013 at 12:14 AM

      Papa Zim had already retired by the time this happened (remember how he got chased out of his home near Sanford). He could still have a VA phone number…

  13. Puck
    June 30, 2013 at 9:26 PM

    GZ gets a call from the Alexandria VA number at 18:04. He sends a text to two people at 18:04 — these are listed after the phone call so I assume he sent them after the call.

    • Puck
      June 30, 2013 at 10:59 PM

      Strike that.

  14. Puck
    June 30, 2013 at 9:47 PM

    Rachel calls Trayvon at 7:12:06 and the call lasts 218 seconds (3 minutes 38 seconds) to 7:15:43. That’s the call that ends with the phone on the grass and “get off, get off” before disconnecting.

  15. June 30, 2013 at 11:42 PM

    Does anyone knows from what time to what time GZ was in custody?
    There is an email (T-mobile IP address) at 20:04 then at 21:04 then 23:06.
    Then there are calls at 00:29, 00:48.
    Then another series of emails at 1:00, 2:55, 3:00, 4:00, 5:30.

    • June 30, 2013 at 11:57 PM

      that’s always bothered me. A “kossak” (blogger frmo daily kos) tried to get the video of GZ LEAVING the SPD and was rebuffed, having been told that COrey had all that under seal.

      dunno the details.

    • Gracie
      July 1, 2013 at 12:02 AM

      Are emails billed in real time? (I’m pretty clueless about cellphones. I only use mine to make calls.)

    • amsterdam1234
      July 1, 2013 at 5:13 AM

      The call at 00:29 was to RZ jr. The phone number matches the number for jr. on the 17th sup. discovery.

  16. June 30, 2013 at 11:55 PM

    tchoupicaillou :
    GZ clearly called NEN just after killing the kid. This is plain crazy! Why didn’t he call 911?

    one answer: because he was exhibiting a depraved mind.

    another: redial.

    BUt yes, either way it’s crazy, and not only did he not call an ambulance, he told Manalo NOT to call 911.

    Nor did he ask TIn Smith to call for an ambulance.

  17. July 1, 2013 at 9:41 AM

    I made a spreadsheet with all communications GZ had from 6pm on Feb. 26th to 5:30 on the following morning.

    GZ was busy texting on Feb 26th pm.

    Past 6pm and until 6:25, he was mostly texting with someone whose phone location is in WINTERPARK, FL (407-756-9916). GZ also texted a bit with someone whose phone locationis in TAMPA, FL (813-334-8885)[6:00-6:03], someone whose phone location is in SANFORD, FL (407-221-2257)[6:08-6:09].

    From 6:24 to 7:00 he texted back and forth with familly[?] in Alexandria, VA (703-859-6010). The text at 7:00pm is from GZ to that person. This is the last communication before calling NEN. That person will send a text back at 9:04pm.

    Shelly (407-731-0055) will text GZ at 6:30. GZ will text back at 6:41. Then she will call him at 6:48. They will talk for 3min.

    I should not forget the 2 internet communications at 6:04pm

    #####
    To me there is no indication of a tip here unless it comes from Shellie. Given the # of texts, GZ must have been on free time that Sunday. If he left home, it’s probably on Shellie’s request soon after sending that last text to Virginia.
    #####

    After the infamous NEN call, GZ called NEN again at 6:18pm i.s.o. calling 911.
    The next call he will make is at 00:29 on the 27th to his brother (703.867.3557).
    He will also call someone in Sanford (321-578-2204) at 00:48am. That person texted him 2x earlier that night (11:14pm).
    Before that call, GZ used the phone to access internet (emails?). This happened at 9:04pm & 11:06pm.
    Finally, GZ accessed the internet (emails?) 5x from 1am to 5:30am.

    ####
    GZ calling NEN i.s.o. 911 after killing the kid just blows me away.
    I’m also surprised by the fact that the phone has been used to access the internet (emails?) while he was in custody.
    Finally, I wonder who that guy is that he called after calling his brother.

    • amsterdam1234
      July 1, 2013 at 10:18 AM

      I found the person associated with the (407) 221-2257 call. It is a female living in Sanford. The address I found is not on the retreat. She is not a Zimmerman or anyone else I am familiar with.

      • blushedbrown
        July 1, 2013 at 7:14 PM

        @Amsterdam

        Hint?

        • amsterdam1234
          July 1, 2013 at 10:02 PM

          I am not sure if I should post the name. I”ll send it to you in an email if you want.

        • blushedbrown
          July 2, 2013 at 6:56 AM

          Sure I authorize Whonoze to send you my email address.

        • amsterdam1234
          July 2, 2013 at 8:19 AM

          Sure BB,
          I’ll send you the info as soon as I get your email address. Some part brain is telling me that the name should mean something to me, but it just doesn’t.

        • blushedbrown
          July 4, 2013 at 5:22 PM

          @Whonoze
          Please give Amsterdam my email when u get a chance thanks
          If I know the name, it might ring a bell in my brain 🙂

      • Puck
        July 1, 2013 at 10:58 PM

        If it’s Kelly Cir, that’s a street (cir = circle).

        Enter this in Google maps:

        Kelly Cir, Sanford, FL, United States

        • amsterdam1234
          July 2, 2013 at 5:38 AM

          Yes, that is the one.

      • July 2, 2013 at 12:15 AM

        We have to be careful here. The phone #s may have been reallocated.

        • amsterdam1234
          July 2, 2013 at 5:49 AM

          That is possible. Although it is more common for phone numbers to be ported if a person changes providers. It is also possible she changed her address. But at this time a business is associated with that address and that name. The woman was also registered as a Democrat in 2012 and was living at that address at the time. It is shocking how much you can find on the internet.
          I think I got the right person, I doubt she had anything to do with what happened that evening.

    • Puck
      July 1, 2013 at 11:08 AM

      The Alexandria, VA number is important. Do we know where Osterman lived then?

      • July 1, 2013 at 11:21 AM

        Lake Mary, FL

        • Puck
          July 1, 2013 at 11:30 AM

          GZ said on the interview with Singleton that he lived there before moving to RTL.

  18. amsterdam1234
    July 1, 2013 at 11:16 AM

    Singleton is back in uniform.

  19. July 1, 2013 at 4:37 PM

    I wanted to go back to Singleton’s crucifix episode as it might be a major element showing GZ’s deprived mind.

    At first, it looked like a major element in favor of defense since GX seems impacted by the news of TM’s passing. Singleton testified that he looked shocked.
    Unless I’m mistaken, the Singleton’s cruifix episode happened on Feb 27th, at the time of the dna extraction and stress voice test.
    If I’m mistaken and the cross episode happpened during the 1st interview with Singleton, all I write here is wrong and the cross episode definitively plays for defense. However, If I’m not mistaken, then 18hrs-19hrs before the Singleton’s crucifix episode , GZ was actually informed by Serino that his case was an homicide and Serino clearly asked him if he understood what it means, and GZ answered “yes”.
    In other words, Singleton’s crucifix episode was faked and Singleton found GZ sincere [her own words] when GZ looked shocked.

    I’m not used to swearing but if what I understood is right then GZ is fucked.

    • July 1, 2013 at 6:53 PM

      I reviewed the part of the Singleton’s crucifix. It happened prior to the interview with Serino. So, it’s a home run for GZ.

      • July 1, 2013 at 7:15 PM

        If the prosecution was resting today, GZ would be acquitted.

        The prosecution is not resting today.

        • racerrodig
          July 1, 2013 at 7:20 PM

          I think the Serino interview hangs Fogen. There is no doubt the jury can tell what is going on. The one 911 call where Serino asks if he can hear the other voice and you hear “I’m begging youuuuuuu…” is the key.

          Fogen goes out of his way to demonstrate how Trayvon was pushing on his mouth and Serino says he has a problem with that…and can’t hear the smothering. No matter what
          O’ Mara did with Serino, this is a key.

        • July 1, 2013 at 7:25 PM

          many things are possible. What GZ says happened is not possible.

        • ada4750
          July 1, 2013 at 7:52 PM

          IMO, BDLR seems to rest to much on his closing argument. I certainly don’t understand why he didn’t get more out of Singleton and Serino.

          Of course, those who followed intensively this case from the beginning know which points he can use later. But the jury don’t. I am afraid that the closing statement will be too much to swallow.

        • ada4750
          July 1, 2013 at 7:58 PM

          Any thoughts about Serino being in civil? He is the only one so far, isn’t it?

        • ada4750
          July 1, 2013 at 7:59 PM

          follow …

        • ada4750
          July 1, 2013 at 8:14 PM

          I forgot to mention that is like Serino, humanly speaking.

      • July 1, 2013 at 7:25 PM

        I see it differently and as a tacit admission that he killed someone and knows that god knows what he did was wrong. yes it may have been a self-serving statement but it’s also an admission at the least of being the killer. Self defense comes in later or not if he is “righteous” to put it in religious terms and he’s not righteous and he knows it.

  20. July 1, 2013 at 9:13 PM

    Speculation: GZ and Shellie are doing different things that evening. They text one another about meeting up around cocktail hour somewhere. Shellie texts him shes about to leave her current location, home and George texts he will meet her there at the party. Then on her way out she sees TM entering RATL via shortcut. She calls George instead of texting: I saw a “suspicious person” in so many words, words GZ will paraphrase later as his own. He’s close by but not home and so enters the complex via back gate and starts driving up and down RVC until he sees TM at mail kiosk.

    He passes and doubles back etc and calls NEN . After the shooting he redials but hangs up as jon Manolo / W13 arrives.

    At the cop shop he’s given his phone back to check for a phone number while he’s with singleton .

    During his custody Shellie arrives w clothing so he knows she and Osterman are there.

    Osterman texts him- are you out yet? I’m running Shellie home for now – let us know when you are out. Since they aren’t putting him in jail clothes they figure he’s getting let go eventually.

    Then he’s out and he texts his brother

    At ostemans later he googles self defense until the dawn

    • Puck
      July 1, 2013 at 11:21 PM

      I really want to know whose the Winter Park number was. It’s close to RATL.

      • July 1, 2013 at 11:35 PM

        Maybe it is ostermans wife. Where does she fit into all this ?

        • Puck
          July 2, 2013 at 12:10 AM

          Could have been Osterman using her phone, like GZ was using Shellie’s.

          Clearly the texts are going to come in, otherwise BDLR wouldn’t have had the T-Mobile guy come in and testify about texts being in Pacific time. I think that’s going to be part of the state’s strategic phase in which they blow the whole story apart, after letting all of it come in, including the interviews and walk-through today. What was the status of the GPS data? Was that what the state gave to the defense, which didn’t know what to do with it?

  21. July 2, 2013 at 8:33 AM

    I believe BLDR can undo today what MoM did yesterday to some extend but it should have never allowed it to happen.
    MoM was good yesterday at walking Serino step-by-step to the conclusion he wanted him to tell. BLDR unfortunately rarely connect the fact discussed to the conclusion that support his case. Hopefully, he will quickly go back to the major inconsistencies and get Serino to tell jury that he did not believe GZ at each of them.
    I hope to hear in redirect about: 1) time-space issue in GZ’s story and what happened to the he-circled-my-car, 2) the idiotic reason given by GZ for going out of his vehicle and what happened to the address he was supposed to give, 3) how come that he could “walk” 190ft from his truck to the T in 20sec (>9.5ft/sec) vs he could only walk 90ft from RVC to the T in ~90sec (1ft/sec), 4) his life threatening wounds vs the number of punches and head bashing.

  22. amsterdam1234
    July 2, 2013 at 9:00 AM

    I got the Osterman’s address. I think it is appropriate to post, but I’ll wait and let you all chime in. The first digits of MO’s # are (407) 342-****. Sondra’s is (407) 368-****.

    • July 2, 2013 at 9:24 AM

      In all honesty, if the phone # have been made public, it’s probably b/c they have been discontinued and possibly redistributed.
      What I’m saying is that we cannot tell for sure who’s behind those phone # if we use today’s # look up tools. We really need to make sure that we find the owner of the # on the days around the killing.

    • July 2, 2013 at 10:12 AM

      what i take from that is probably that they got new phones, locally so they both have the same area code now, while that may not have been the case before. Doesnt speak to what their numbers may have been in february.

      As much as we want to figure this out, we may have to wait for the full answers.

      One clue for deductive reasoning purposes would be however that GZ would not call MO while they were both at MOs house.

  23. July 2, 2013 at 3:54 PM

    I cannot follow it all today.
    Was there any information as to what the deal is about the back of the Bahadoor’s house?
    It sounded like they found an evidence that GZ went further south.

    • July 2, 2013 at 4:51 PM

      I think it was just establishing that Serino was aware the Bahadoors had testified to seeing things directly across from their home.

      • July 2, 2013 at 5:01 PM

        Thanks Whonoze. I’ll try watching that tonight.
        What’s your take concerning today?

        • July 2, 2013 at 5:18 PM

          Short version: a good day for the prosecution and a bad day for the space-time continuom theory fans.

        • racerrodig
          July 2, 2013 at 6:43 PM

          Funny how OsterPhoole is offended by the “MF” word. Also funny how he says in his book he stated in his book that Trayvon grabbed the gun between the rear sight and trigger and all of a sudden……….ehhhhh…….maybe, …..um, that is…….not what, um I understood him to say??????

          Duhhhhhhhhhhh of the decade.

          Yep…..a good day for the prosecution.

  24. wassointeresting
    July 2, 2013 at 8:11 PM

    @Wiilis, over in the lounge, you wrote “Still unclear if the prosecution “gets” that Zimmerman chased trayvon with his car before chasing him on foot.Osteman himself spoke to this idea and Bernie seemingly let it pass un-highlighted.”

    Yep, Osterman emphasized how they made contact early on while on RVC.

    Despite me being disappointed with Serino’s agreeing with everything that either the prosecution or defense was asking him, a bit of his “old” personality came back when O’Mara had the diagram of the T up by the witness stand and asked him to relay what he thought happened when it “started” over where GZ parked. Then Serino says something to the effect of “As far as I’m concerned it started back there” and pointed in the direction of the clubhouse. Come on, BDLR!

    • July 2, 2013 at 10:22 PM

      yes i was going to pull an Elvis and shoot my TV at that point. I think they are going to possibly “go there” eventually but are letting opportunities go by right and left.

      Osterman is too stupid to know what he is saying. He looked as dumb as a rock on that stand. Yet BDLR let him prattle on for a reason. I think he’s waiting to lower the boom, or at least I hope so.

      So far we’ve heard Rachel J, DON WEST (the idiot) osterman, and Singleton and Serino all hinting strongly or outright saying that GZ chased the kid with his moving car, yet no one seems to put it into proper context as a very important aspect of the crime, one that evidences ill will, and bad intent and all that legal crap the speaks to M2. And we’ve seen the Map and the 2 clubhouse video clips. SO what;s it gonna be, Bernie? Either he’s gonna go there, or he is strangely incompetent. And right now I wouldn’t want to bet either way.

      • wassointeresting
        July 3, 2013 at 6:45 AM

        I’ve never watched a trial all the way through so I wonder if at this point, they’re (prosecution) just laying out all the pieces and can’t get too aggressive on their own witnesses. At the time that the defense witnesses come up, the prosecution can start rehashing details, painting a more full picture of “the chase” (remember the jury has NO IDEA what that those two little clips from the East pool hall video means yet), and then I guess, in closing argument, they’ll have to do the final slam dunk.

        By the way, I am SOO confused as to what the heck that piece of awning found a week later behind Manalo’s bushes has to do with anything? Did I understand it right that O’Mara and/or Serino suggested that it could be used as a burglary tool? Did they say it CAME from Manalo’s house’s awning or are they suggesting TM randomly picked up a piece of somebody’s house on the way home from 711? That’s such a sleezy way of introducing “non-evidence” to seed doubt.

        • ada4750
          July 3, 2013 at 8:02 AM

          Found in bushes near Manalo house and of course O”Mara was trying to suggest that it might belongs to Trayvon. After all, those bushes were almost his.

          Also along with o’Mara, because somebody got arrested few weeks before GZ was justified to find suspicious every black kid walking after 6PM BDLR did not answer back to this.

        • July 3, 2013 at 8:59 AM

          The piece of awning comes from the Manalo’s house. This was clarified during redirect. Therefor, TM did not bring any tool.
          There is nothing connecting it to the case.

    • July 4, 2013 at 11:27 PM

      I don’t know if too late, but in case of use, the defence admitted in openings that Zimmerman “followed” Trayvon in his car. I posted it for willis in the Trial 1 thread. While going through the route they had drawn of West stated, after talking about GZ being at the clubhouse observing Trayvon,:

      “George Zimmerman’s still in the car, by that time though he has moved. Was he following Trayvon Martin ? Yes he was following Trayvon Martin”

  25. wassointeresting
    July 3, 2013 at 11:03 AM

    With all of this talk of “self-defense” today, I wonder if the jurors are focusing on it solely from the point of view of GZ. Maybe somebody should remind them of it from TM’s point of view? Yes, Mr. West, TM should NOT have waited until a strange creepy guy following him in the dark all the way to the house where a 14 year old was at in order to turn around, stand his ground and ask his stalker “What are you following me for?”,

  26. wassointeresting
    July 3, 2013 at 2:25 PM

    Gorgone stated that they test DNA for Caucasian, African Americans, and Hispanics. What about Asian criminals??

    • wassointeresting
      July 3, 2013 at 2:41 PM

      Never mind, I misunderstood the question and his answer. I take it that in this case he would only do statistics for DNA in the Caucasian, African American and Hispanic populations because of the races of the two known individuals involved in the case.

  27. July 3, 2013 at 2:40 PM

    Boy do I have a lot to learn about how to conduct a prosecution. Is it true the state hopes to rest its case today?

    Can someone explain what the defense can present during their turn besides some hearsay, unless GZ takes the stand?

    I’m out of my element.

    Why has BDLR presented the clubhouse video clip and not spoken to what it means?

    I still expect an FLDE investigator to explain the time sequence, and that had BETTER be coming.

    • July 3, 2013 at 3:43 PM

      The prosecution wants to rest its case today? I missed that one. So, we had most of the evidences already.

      • July 3, 2013 at 6:27 PM

        I missed it to, but I’ll try to summarize what I gleaned from others. If someone else knows better, please elaborate. THis is second hand:

        There was some chit chat apparently about scheduling, roughly around the time they returned from lunch. West apparently made complaints as to how the defense needed a postponement to prepare for their case, and mentioned the fact that they have not been able to depose Crump yet as a complaint. BDLR said the state was planning to finish and rest their case TODAY in so many words. In hindsight I think he was probably bluffing a great deal, but people took him seriously on the blogs and began to speculate that he hoped to put Sabrina Fulton on the stand at the end of the day.

        Seems like a “they exaggerate, so we exaggerate” back and forth.

        If anyone knows when this was let me know, I’d like to review it. I watched most of today but often miss when they come back from a break.

    • July 3, 2013 at 5:38 PM

      I don’t know what’s going on either, willis, but I’m guessing (hoping?) that they’re waiting for the closing argument to pull it all together. I’m guessing it will be a long statement in which Bernie pulls out all the pieces of evidence that have been authenticated, argues what they mean, and connects all the dots in (hopefully) compelling narrative. They might be doing this because the State gets to go last in closing. Thus, if Bernie keeps all his interpretive cards close to his vest, MOM doesn’t get as good a chance to rebut them.

      So, I don’t expect any more witnesses besides the ME and Sybrina Fulton. If anyone explains the timeline, It will have to be Bernie (or Guy, if he does the closing). This does not exactly fill me with confidence…

      • wassointeresting
        July 3, 2013 at 8:06 PM

        If the prosecution is not going to talk about the sec videos until the closing arguments, then they’re putting very little weight on their significance. But are they allowed to do that though? I mean I know they introduced those clips as evidence already but they didn’t point them out in the “timeline” by any means. I just don’t get it. Maybe we should be happy if they use those videos at all in closing. Otherwise, as someone stated before, if they talk about it in detail before then, the defense can make the prosecution look like ufo light chasers.

        • July 4, 2013 at 12:01 AM

          re: “UFO light chasers” That’s what bugs me about the whole space/ time argument…. It doesn’t take the clubhouse videos at all to prove the car-to-pedesrian chase. All it takes is the NEN recording, a map and a stopwatch. Google earth comes in handy if you want to try various walking speeds, etc. but it;s not necessary either. There’s only a short range of space that GZ could have been in at all for the timing to work out with the NEN call. It’s not that the clubhouse videos prove it. They simply conform it, as does DD/W8.RJ’s memory of what TM told her right as her phone connection went out.

        • July 4, 2013 at 11:18 PM

          A thought! If as whonoze notes the defence is going to use a timeline, could it be the prosecution are going to use the tapes to rebut it ?

  28. Gracie
    July 3, 2013 at 5:32 PM

    George still has black eyes: http://t.co/51b7oEizU0 Does that mean MOM has given him a broken nose?

    • racerrodig
      July 3, 2013 at 7:20 PM

      It looks like Fogen is thinking back to those days of yesteryear when he was calling Corey’s office. I always said he was gonna ask her for and date. He’s thinking “….she’s looks hot in red…….and I married SheLie…….damn, I wanted to be a cop, just imagine how much Angela and I could do for justice in this state. Maybe when I get out we can hook up and…………”

  29. Gracie
    July 3, 2013 at 5:35 PM

    I’m hoping GZ will get the same verdict as Raul Rodriguez. Technically Raul had a SYG defense but the jury said NO. http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-06-27/texas-stand-your-ground-sentence/55868954/1

    • July 4, 2013 at 11:16 PM

      IMO that case was so much more clear cut than this. The shooter announced he was going to shoot in self defence while on the phone to the police, like the Joe Horn case, abhorrent, although his case was dismissed by a grand jury. I don’t personally think this case and those are comparable.

  30. July 3, 2013 at 5:57 PM

    The WFTV talking heads reported today that the Defense is going to introduce some kind of timeline as part of their case. Now that, I have to see. There is no way they can make GZ’s account fit the combination of physical evidence and witness testimony. Given all the work we’ve done debunking the “re-enactment” for time/space issues, and what we’ve done with the security videos, I will seriously face-palm if the Defense puts up any kind of timeline and the State fails to blow it to smithereens beyond any hope of redemption.

    • July 3, 2013 at 6:21 PM

      I just don’t know of WFTV has a single clue as to what they were actually told, and what it might mean. To be certain they usually just read a press release from MOM and report it as news/ fact. The defense’s “timeline” might be like this: first Trayvon hit george… then he mounted him, etc.”

      What I learned today is that the prosecution didn’t rest yet. I’m about to give up making predictions for a while. (but I probably can’t resist that challenge to speculate)

      Definitely a bit of a guessing game. We are all on pins and needles waiting to see where BDLR is taking this train. I hope it is to a place of truth and justice and common sense. And I hope he gathers the faithful at every stop along the way, but so far he seems to blowing by a lot of the whistle stops.

    • July 3, 2013 at 6:23 PM

      Actually, talking about timeline, you must have noticed that GZ’s nen call is logged as starting at 19:08 and lasting 5 minutes. It is not a log to the second so, the call effectively started somewhere between 7:18:00pm & 7:18:59pm.
      This is the period in the video where he comes back east on RVC and makes a right on TTL before stopping 10sec by the mailboxes awning. I would bet that GZ actually stop to call NEN. That would meant that we should reduce the clock offset down closer to 16min. It means that Wit #3 saw Ofc. Smith as he was driving on TTL. I mean she did not see him entering TTL. She noticed him a bit later.

      In fact, I now question TM’s presence at the mailboxes by the clubhouse. When GZ’s truck shows up, he drives exceptionally slowly. It can only be that either he’s searching or that he is stalking.
      GZ looking for TM requires that he is already aware of the presence of the kid. I would drop the tip off hypothesis as I see nothing in GZ’s phone records indicating one. So, for GZ to be aware of TM, he had to have sen him already. It is possible that he already drove by a first time and came back. I don’t know at this point.
      At this point stalking makes more sense to me. His vehicle is ~4x slower than any other vehicle. With a speed limit of 15mph, it brings his speed to ~human speed. It would then accelerate past the junction with TTL to make a u-turn and come back toward TM whom he “circles” with his truck before going to TTL to place the NEN call.

      • July 3, 2013 at 6:40 PM

        Interesting. Yet GZ still settles in someplace on TTL facing the mail kiosk, and RJ/W8/DD still places TM there at the mail kiosk very early.

        I’ve always felt that Tim Smith may have been spotted anywhere on TTL, from the entrance to the front doorstep of W3.

        I see Shellie’s call as the most likely call to be the tipoff. Tchoupi. what makes you discount that? Isn’t it preceded by a few text messages back and forth? (I’m wondering if GZ deleted these texts but that the prosecution’s investigation was able to recover them somehow. That would certainly be a bombshell that would allow BDLR to be so cool and relaxed.)

        To me the essential question to place the “players” on the map is still this exchange: “he’s by the clubhouse now?/ yeah, now he’s coming towards me.” And no matter what the timing, it seems clear that GZ was on TTL and TM was somewhere “near the clubhouse now.”

        I agree that the trolling the front of the clubhouse is a very slow car move. It’s the only one that lasts so long, as you point out so well in your chart of photos. What he’s doing there however is difficult to guess. It could be that he is acting on a tip that someone was at the clubhouse, had walked towards the clubhouse earlier. It also could be that this was the moment he spied the teen somehow, but if so why not call THEN?

        I can see him trolling the mail kiosk and intentionally pulling out his cell while giving TM the stink eye, then driving away to return to watch from the corner.

        Many things are possible; what GZ claims happened is not possible.

      • July 3, 2013 at 6:52 PM

        I am convinced the sec vid timing is correct as it is. I tried lots of variations, and they all were unsatisfactory for one reason or another, not that I remember all the details at this late date.

        I can see four possible hypotheses for the motions of GZ’s truck: on RVC before he turns onto TTL, and on TTL as he cruises the mailboxes.

        1. He was tipped via phone by Shellie (seems unlikely…)

        2. He was tipped in person (somebody actually walked up to his door to report seeing a strange kid in the complex).

        3. He was just patrolling when he happened to catch sight of TM by the CH out of the corner of his eye. (Perhaps TM was wandering between the mailbox awning proper and the front of the clubhouse…)

        4. GZ did in fact spot TM entering the complex via a short-cut, and begin to walk down RVC. However, he was unarmed at the time. So he drove home, got his gun, made sure it was ready to fire with a round in the chamber, and drove back out looking for TM. Thus his intention from the beginning was to call the police if he found the youth still on the grounds, but also to detain him until the cops arrived since they always get there after the assholes have run away.

        So, while I don’t think it’s necessary for GZ to have seen TM, or to have been tipped, some foreknowledge seems a better fit with the U-turns on RVC. If #4 could be established, that would certainly support the Murder 2 charge. But it seems we’ll never know what really happened.

        • ada4750
          July 3, 2013 at 7:23 PM

          I support mainly your hypothese #4. Which i would add, that he was probably going Target unarmed. He saw Trayvon and found him suspicious.

          Anyway, i can’t hardly contain my frustration. No matter the reason, it is clear that GZ lied. Also, BDLR has (or have it is still not too late) absolutely nothing to lose if he introduced those videos. What’s wrong with him?

          I got the feeling that he had to many cases in his career where no matter how lousy he would present them, the jury would find the black or poor guys guilty.

        • ada4750
          July 3, 2013 at 7:27 PM

          But hypothese 2 or 3 are possible also. 2 would be a close neighbor who didn’t have GZ phone number but knew where he lived.

        • ada4750
          July 3, 2013 at 7:37 PM

          Hum… “had (or has, it is still …”

        • Puck
          July 3, 2013 at 10:33 PM

          There’s still the possibility of a text tip-off from someone else, e.g. Taaffe. There are incoming texts from the Sanford and Winter Park numbers beginning around 6 p.m. A series of five incoming texts from the Winter Park number between 6:07:00 and 6:07:59 could have been a detailed description of someone and his location/movements. It seems to me the number of texts exchanged from then on before the NEN call would be a discussion of what GZ was doing and/or planning at that time rather than general chit-chat.

          What I don’t understand is, if the records are going to be used to demonstrate something other than the timeline (since there must have been a reason to have had them entered in the first place), when they will be revealed. Perhaps in closing arguments when the State is presenting the whole event based on the evidence, will say GZ received a text from Osterman/Taaffe/whoever at 6:xx saying, “[tipoff]” (showing the texts on the projection screen), followed by the rest of the exchange. This would be a bombshell in closing arguments, the type that elicits gasps from the courtroom, and would lock in everything else as part of a plan. It would show intent and could be the final element — besides “these assholes,” “fucking coons” (the jury has heard it enough times by now to realize that’s what he actually said), his profiling of Trayvon, and his depraved indifference in both choosing to fire the gun when he didn’t have to and then walking away from Trayvon, that elevate this from manslaughter to second-degree murder, but not first-degree since there was not necessarily premeditation to actually kill the “suspect.”

          The prosecution made a point to establish that GZ knew about SYG and self-defense. I don’t think this was solely to show that he lied about it on Hannity. Rather, it could be setting the foundation for incriminating information (here, texts) that will show him consulting whomever in order to concoct — or, more likely, shore up — his self-defense story.

          I’m trying to work through this so the above is not necessarily rock-solid in terms of what I think — just insulating myself a bit here. 🙂

  31. July 3, 2013 at 6:42 PM

    on another note, GZlegal site is down. Anyone know why, or was this announced?

    Is there any update on discovery data that took place since the trial began?

    • wassointeresting
      July 3, 2013 at 7:54 PM

      Maybe the GZlegalcase site got flooded. Reminds me, it was hilarious today how all those idiots kept trying to call the Skype account during that professor’s testimony.

      • July 3, 2013 at 9:28 PM

        It wil be even more amusing when they get investigated and charged with contempt of court.

        • wassointeresting
          July 3, 2013 at 9:50 PM

          Well I can’t believe that Mantei used his own Skype account and showed the view of the computer screen with his name on there. That’s like flashing your cell phone number on live national TV. You can’t expect people to not try and call you when you do that.

  32. July 3, 2013 at 7:02 PM

    I believe that we weeded out many possibilities using the cctv data. However, there are quite a bit of things that remain uncertain.

    willisnewton :
    Interesting. Yet GZ still settles in someplace on TTL facing the mail kiosk, and RJ/W8/DD still places TM there at the mail kiosk very early.
    I’ve always felt that Tim Smith may have been spotted anywhere on TTL, from the entrance to the front doorstep of W3.

    It is true that RJ places TM at the mailboxes when he spotted GZ. I’m not certain she had a good enough visual to really grab all the wheres and whens though.
    I’ve always been bothered by GZ telling Sean “He’s here NOW”. That may suggests that he wasn’t here a moment ago.

    willisnewton :
    I see Shellie’s call as the most likely call to be the tipoff. Tchoupi. what makes you discount that? Isn’t it preceded by a few text messages back and forth? (I’m wondering if GZ deleted these texts but that the prosecution’s investigation was able to recover them somehow. That would certainly be a bombshell that would allow BDLR to be so cool and relaxed.)

    One thing is certain is that Shelly & George were not together between 6:30pm & 7pm. Her last call is placed at 6:48pm and lasts 3min. GZ shows up by the clubhouse at 7:07pm. This is too long for being someone who was just told about a suspicious person and needed to check. The other possibility is that GZ was not informed via his cellphone. That would then be that someone came to his house. That I cannot discard.

    willisnewton :
    To me the essential question to place the “players” on the map is still this exchange: “he’s by the clubhouse now?/ yeah, now he’s coming towards me.” And no matter what the timing, it seems clear that GZ was on TTL and TM was somewhere “near the clubhouse now.”

    I agree.

    willisnewton :
    I agree that the trolling the front of the clubhouse is a very slow car move. It’s the only one that lasts so long, as you point out so well in your chart of photos. What he’s doing there however is difficult to guess. It could be that he is acting on a tip that someone was at the clubhouse, had walked towards the clubhouse earlier. It also could be that this was the moment he spied the teen somehow, but if so why not call THEN?
    I can see him trolling the mail kiosk and intentionally pulling out his cell while giving TM the stink eye, then driving away to return to watch from the corner.
    Many things are possible; what GZ claims happened is not possible.

    • July 3, 2013 at 8:26 PM

      “He’s here now…” does not mean he wasn’t there previously. GZ is correcting Noffke, who had just shifted to the past tense. (My emphases below).

      SN: OK, and this guy IS he white, black, or Hispanic?
      GZ: He looks black.
      SN: DID you see what he WAS wearing?
      GZ: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or
      sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He’s here now, he was just staring…

      TM was at the mailboxes then, and he’d been there for some time, though of course he may have paced around some. Too bad he never went into the East Pool Hall…

      • July 3, 2013 at 8:51 PM

        yes and Sean went on with the present tense after that.

        It seems to me that the one who is just arriving on the scene is GZ. The “we’ve had a lot of break-ins…” is his usual opening.

        The interesting thing is that he describes what TM supposedly did to become a suspicious person in PAST tense. He’s not doing the suspicious activity NOW or else GZ would say that.

        note the part where GZ uses the word WAS – “he WAS just staring (and) looking at all the houses”

        IMO he could be describing here what Shellie told him SHE saw around 6:48, which would be TM headed from the shortcut near FT’s towards the clubhouse. Certainly the slip of the tongue during the walk thru video comes to mind here.

        Zimmerman: Hey we’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there’s a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.
        Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?
        Zimmerman: He looks black.
        Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?
        Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He’s [unintelligible], he was just staring…

        Dispatcher: OK, he’s just walking around the area…
        Zimmerman: …looking at all the houses.
        Dispatcher: OK…
        Zimmerman: Now he’s just staring at me.
        49
        Dispatcher: OK—you said it’s 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?
        Zimmerman: That’s the clubhouse…
        Dispatcher: That’s the clubhouse, do you know what the—he’s near the clubhouse right now?

        Imagine if this happened in GZ’s time/space false narrative world. He’s still be AHEAD of the teen parked in the clubhouse parking lot somehow, describing what he saw back by FT’s as TM approached on RVC, right? That’s the time he’d be ACTIVELY “staring at the houses/ walking around looking about in the rain” since when he arrives at “near the clubhouse right now” there are no houses to stare at.

        IMO the tipoff was real, and it was most likely Shellie’s call at 6:48 that alerted GZ, who went up and down RVC slowly until he decided to try TTL, where he trolled the mail kiosk.

        • ada4750
          July 3, 2013 at 9:07 PM

          It sounds like his wife and the grocery store had something in common. Maybe she just called at 6:48 to tell to move his ass and go make the grocery.

      • ada4750
        July 3, 2013 at 8:54 PM

        I think also that Trayvon was at the mailboxes when GZ stopped. This could have made Trayvon started to get away from the mailboxes. He walked shortly around near the club House a little bit to check the sky and rain. GZ might lost sight of him then. But soon Trayvon came back near the mailboxes and this is when GZ said he here is now and he is staring at me.

        One thing fore sure GZ never lost sight of Trayvon after he said “he here is now” but he said Singleton that he did shortly lose his sight.

        • July 3, 2013 at 9:02 PM

          Most of GZ’s lies about timing and movement can best be explained by the theory that GZ wanted to obscure, omit and obfuscate the car to pedestrian chase.

          It’s what caused him to invent the clubhouse parking lot story, and what caused him to scratch out the real position he marked on the map, which he did seconds before inventing the circled the car/doubled back impossible narrative for singleton. He knows enough not to talk about making the teen run away with his aggressive act of following with his car after they had made eye contact.

        • ada4750
          July 3, 2013 at 9:37 PM

          @willisNewton “car chase” Do you mean before his call or the part along TTL or both?

          The first draw he made was a slip. He realized it. But i don’t think the lie for the Club House was for that,

          It really looks like he didn’t know were exactly was Trayvon when he first past the Club House. If he knew why would he disappeared for almost a minute and then passed again in front of the Club House.

          —–

          And what if Trayvon was himself in front of the Club House and said to Rachel his was covering near the mailboxes. This might explain GZ movement in front of it. But this hypothesis opens a complicated field. And i don’t think it worth the analysis. Too late now.

        • ada4750
          July 3, 2013 at 10:07 PM

          Bottom line. BDLR should at least use the fact that GZ never park in front. He doesn’t have to explain more only shows an unquestionable lie. But emphasizing with a very thick line that this lie is has to be motivated by something very serious.

        • wassointeresting
          July 3, 2013 at 10:21 PM

          @ada, the clearest lie that the prosecution needs to show is that it’s physically impossible for TM to have come back and circled his truck the way he described it so definitively in the re-enactment tape. Either that or they go along with it and show that TM was aware of GZ’s presence in a very slow truck to pedestrian chase and tried to make contact where there was light, when all GZ did was rolled up his window, refused to talk to him and then went running in the dark after him with a gun in his pants.

        • ada4750
          July 3, 2013 at 10:38 PM

          @wassointere The good thing with the videos is that once the set up is explained to the jury the proof is direct and unquestionable.

          The physical impossibility of the circling (i suppose you mean distance versus time) is quite easy also.

          Why in the hell BDLR did not discuss those topics with Singleton an Serino? This is so incomprehensible. Isn’t it to late at the closing statement to start make calculations? I don’t know. I never watched a trial.

        • wassointeresting
          July 3, 2013 at 11:24 PM

          @ada, I don’t know, I don’t know anymore. SMH. The prosecution presented a couple of things in such a wrong way, I thought. One thing was about GZ not knowing the address. He stated it on the NEN call that he didn’t know the address. He wasn’t lying at that time. Sure, he lied about WHY he jumped outta the truck, but to keep harping on that didn’t make the prosecution look good. Another thing was the whole “wanna be a cop” issue today. Sure, that’s an issue, but they focused on how “smart” GZ was that he must have soaked up text-book and knew every detail of SYG but lied about it on Hannity. It would have been better to say that he was frustrated with having been denied a cop position, frustrated with his mediocre grades and having been denied graduation, His string of trying to catch the “bad guy” starting with his following a shoplifter (who does that?) way back when. Wouldn’t that have tied in much better with their opening statement where Guy repeated GZ’s frustrated words “F-ing punks” and “These a-holes always get away”?

      • July 3, 2013 at 11:49 PM

        This is convincing.
        But I’m still puzzled by how slow was that vehicle. It looks a lot like the car was stalking someone to me. That vehicle seems to have been moving literally at human pace.

  33. July 3, 2013 at 7:39 PM

    perhaps the state is going to present the two brief clips from the clubhouse videos thusly:

    one as proof that the car never parked on RVC or in the clubhouse lot – it was moving slow but not stopped ever.

    and two as evidence his call began as he stopped at the mail kiosk, to corroborate RJ/W8?DD’s story of TM being at the kiosk.

    As proof of the timing they will simply say that no other cars are visible around that time and that the sync being off by as much as a minute changes little to nothing about those two conclusions. The basic idea being that GZ lied.

    We know they could go father than that, but if that was all they did I’d be satisfied.

    It makes little to no sense at all to me that they didnt highlight the car that returns to face the mail kiosk. IF that isn’t GZ then he was never anywhere in the whole area around that time at all. Perhaps they feel the pool cam clip shows GZ driving to the cut thru and stopping, and that the car that returns is a civilian but that seems silly. THe car never passes the clubhouse after coming around the bend by w11’s house. It doesn’t pull into a driveway. It has to have stopped on TTL facing the mail kiosk.

  34. July 3, 2013 at 8:56 PM

    tchoupi wrote:

    “One thing is certain is that Shelly & George were not together between 6:30pm & 7pm. Her last call is placed at 6:48pm and lasts 3min. GZ shows up by the clubhouse at 7:07pm. This is too long for being someone who was just told about a suspicious person and needed to check.”

    Unless GZ was not at home, and Shellie was – and she was leaving. Perhaps GZ was ahead of her, or at the store, etc. a few miniutes away by car. GZ gets the call and returns to the RATL. SHellie continues on or else goes back home to wait.

    Or GZ had to get his gun first somehow first and that took a few minutes. As in, had to get HER gun somehow.

    • July 3, 2013 at 11:15 PM

      I thought about GZ being the one coming in and noticing TM by the mailbox. The issue though is to find that vehicle. I’m not convinced there is any vehicle that could be GZ’s when looking at the correlation table.

      • July 4, 2013 at 10:10 AM

        Unless for georgraphic reasons GZs car enters the RATL via the back entrance… In which case his arrival at the RATL would not have been seen on any video.

        I’m still thinking the 6:48 call and related text messages are a tipoff from Shellie. It explains a lot, including the “just tell her I shot someone” and the “my wife” and even her loyalty since he lied to the SPD (and Hannity etc) to keep her involvement out of it. I wouldn’t say he’s “protecting her” by his lies but in his mind he probably is.

        • July 4, 2013 at 11:02 AM

          I ruled out the south-east gate b/c GZ still has to drive by the mailboxes to see TM.

          I ruled out Shellie’s tip off b/c the timing indicates no sense of urgency.
          She called at 6:48pm. The call lasts 3min. GZ is seen by the clubhouse only 16min after the end of SZ’s call while it take just 1 minute to get there from home.
          Finally, there is no indication that SZ was near RATL at the time.

  35. July 3, 2013 at 11:12 PM

    Puck :
    There’s still the possibility of a text tip-off from someone else, e.g. Taaffe. There are incoming texts from the Sanford and Winter Park numbers beginning around 6 p.m. A series of five incoming texts from the Winter Park number between 6:07:00 and 6:07:59 could have been a detailed description of someone and his location/movements. It seems to me the number of texts exchanged from then on before the NEN call would be a discussion of what GZ was doing and/or planning at that time rather than general chit-chat.

    Honestly, 6:07pm is 1hour too early. TM did not get to the 7-11. He possibly still was home at that time.
    If a tip off was given, it has to be around 7pm. Around that time there is no text or phone call from people in FL. I don’t know if GZ had a landline phone.

  36. July 3, 2013 at 11:32 PM

    ada4750 :
    It sounds like his wife and the grocery store had something in common. Maybe she just called at 6:48 to tell to move his ass and go make the grocery.

    That’s what I believe. GZ seems to have been spending his day chatting left and right. She was out. He was free.
    You can see that he answered all his texts from friends and family immediately (within minutes) until past 6:25pm. From that time, he does not answer texts immediately. For example, It took him 11min to answer the text from Shellie (6:30). It looks like he was prep’ing to get out.
    His last text he sent before the NEN is at 7:00pm. This matches pretty well the time it would take for him to get by the clubhouse and observe TM.

  37. July 3, 2013 at 11:59 PM

    wassointeresting :
    @ada, the clearest lie that the prosecution needs to show is that it’s physically impossible for TM to have come back and circled his truck the way he described it so definitively in the re-enactment tape. Either that or they go along with it and show that TM was aware of GZ’s presence in a very slow truck to pedestrian chase and tried to make contact where there was light, when all GZ did was rolled up his window, refused to talk to him and then went running in the dark after him with a gun in his pants.

    Personally, I believe that the biggest lie concerning timing is the one that shows that he would not let that asshole get away.
    I’m talking about the 2 minutes between the end of his NEN call and the end of RJ’s call. It makes it physically impossible to have been just walking back to his truck from RVC.
    He either was doing something else or was somewhere else. Either way, he lied about not looking for TM.
    Add to this his last request to Sean N., then his real intent becomes unavoidable: This asshole is not going away.

    • wassointeresting
      July 4, 2013 at 2:24 AM

      @tchoupi, sure it would be the ultimate “gotcha” moment IF the prosecution can prove that GZ did anything OTHER than stand on RVC banging his flashlight or scratching his butt (pardon my vulgar imagery) for 15 seconds or 2 minutes. Saying that he must have been doing this or must and been doing that in those missing minutes without hard evidence is not going to fly with the jury. If the state wants to catch GZ in an OBVIOUS LIE, absent other evidence, they have to use his own words against him, and that’s by recreating the “chase” between parking in front of the clubhouse to parking by the T and getting encircled by TM. GZ claimed it all happened during the course of the phone call and those details given in the re-enactment can’t be explained away by a simple lapse of memory.

      • July 4, 2013 at 11:09 AM

        Even if GZ was just standing for 2 minutes on the sidewalk in the night under the rain, I still see the jury finding that suspicious enough to fit with his story that he was not after the kid.

        Remember, GZ never gave Sean the address he claims he looked for and suddenly changed his mind about meeting at the clubhouse indicating that he would not even know where he will be when police arrives.

        • wassointeresting
          July 4, 2013 at 11:50 AM

          @tchoupi, sure from our point of view it is highly suspicious for him to say he stood there in the rain for 2 minutes afraid of going back through the cut through without light. He sure didn’t sound “afraid” when he got off the phone with NEN. On the Hannity show, he claimed that it was only about 20 sec between the time he got off the phone until when he encountered TM. Is the difference between 20 sec and 2 minutes enough to convict him of murder 2 IF the jury believes him up until that point? I am afraid, really afraid at this point if the prosecution is supposed to wind down their case on Friday that if they don’t pull out the Ace card at that point that, then I don’t know when they would have the opportunity to do so while the defense presents their side.

        • July 4, 2013 at 11:41 PM

          @tchoupi says:

          “… GZ was just standing for 2 minutes on the sidewalk in the night under the rain… …the address he claims he looked for”

          A real suspicious guy. Looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.

    • July 4, 2013 at 10:20 AM

      fWIW he was asked about this time gap and his excuse is that he was trying to fix his flashlight. It’s a poor explanation, almost as bad as leaving out the running teen and his moving car as a prelude to getting out to find a street sign/ address but like that unlikely story it is physically possible and he has stuck to it.

      The teen doubling back to circle his vehicle is NOT possible and connects with his inconsistent and contradictory memory of being “still by the clubhouse now” line of questioning, as well as coming directly after having amended his TRUE car position on singletons map.

      It’s the lie that was meant to obscure and omit the car to pedestrian chase, which has been corroborated by DD, Osterman and Don (the idiot) West as well as shown to be quite likely by the clubhouse cameras.

      If the prosecution never uses this lie then they are missing the best opportunity that they were handed IMO to establish that GZ lied to hide an aggressive act that speaks to all the elements of M2 depraved mind etc.

      • July 4, 2013 at 10:56 AM

        Serino asked GZ about the time (~1 minute) spent at the T before the end of the NEN call. His answer was indeed that he was fixing his flashlight.

        Serino at the time saw no time gap after the end of the NEN because he was relying on the timeline written by Singleton which was 2 minutes late as the NEN call was said to be starting at ~7:11.30pm and ending at ~7:15:30pm.

        I know from the trial that the state has that error fixed.
        I also heard Serino indicated that the time gap is a problem to him. I have to review the part of the trial where MoM crosses Serino. I believe it was when there were using the map of the crime scene. At that time Serino made multiple comments about the time to get back to his truck and the location of the fight.

        • July 4, 2013 at 12:15 PM

          I’d have to listen to that again but my previous understanding of this exchange between Serino and GZ was that it was about what GZ did when he was at the end of the cut thru on RVC but before he alleedly returned to(wards) his truck.

          George doesn’t want to say that he stopped at the T, even though the timing of the wind noise places him there when he says “he ran.” I’ve never understood why. It could be that he walked on past the T after he stopped jogging but there’s no way to know. There’s also no way to know if he really continued on to RVC at that time, or went down the dog walk instead. Most people assume he went to RVC because he says so, and for the logic it makes but in truth we don’t know.

          I’m fairly certain however that the wind noises stop when he reaches the T for the first time.

      • ada4750
        July 4, 2013 at 1:13 PM

        @willisNewton GZ run about 25 secs. The distance between is truck and the grass on RVC is roughly 250 feet. This means a speed little less then 7 mph (mild jogging)

        GZ was sure that Trayvon was heading towards the back entrance via the dog alley, between houses and RVC. This is why GZ continued running up to RVC. Also, he said in the reenactment that the dispatch asked him if he was following when he was around the T. This was running after.

        Rachel said that GZ surprised Trayvon who walked away from him. The only possible way is that GZ was coming from south. Just as whonoze showed in his video.

        ——————-

        There is another similar way. This is just for the heck of it. Maybe GZ made it all the way to the south entrance of the dog alley but continued his way on RVC towards his truck via TTL. Why? because, he said he was scared to come back by the shortcut since the lights of his truck were off, so even more there. At the same time, Trayvon might had tried to look (without mentioned it to Rachel) on TTL to see what the guy in truck was doing and then got surprised by GZ still from South.

        • July 4, 2013 at 2:18 PM

          we will have to quibble a bit before coming to some sort of an agreement.

          The distance from where GZ claims he parked, to the MIDDLE of RVC where he drew a line on Singleton’s map is 300 feet. Stopping where GZ stops on the walk thru video is nonsensical.

          The wind noise is 24-25 seconds of fast walking or gat boy jogging.

          The distance to the T is somewhere around 190 feet. That’s 7.9 feet per second, faster than a normal walk but slower than an outright running speed.

          For him to travel 300 feet in that time, he’d have to move at 12.5 feet per second, which is an all-out run. That’s a hundred yard dash in pretty good time for an obese person.

          I’m not very good at math so I went outside and tried these various speeds over a distance to see what it felt like.

          IMO George fast walk/jogged to the T.

          I also think his “effing punks/coons/goons” comment was possibly in response to losing sight of Trayvon as the teen hit the corner or the darkness WHILE GZ was distracted by gathering his belongings. As he starts to jog, he looks to where the teen was last and notices he’s already gone. That means the teen ran for around twelve seconds. This distance fits with the timing of walking from the mail kiosk, passing the vehicle and then walking to around the start of the cut thru path. Why wait until then to run? Because the car was following him.

        • July 4, 2013 at 3:12 PM

          Amazed that after all this time, and with the prosecution about to rest, my first big evidence question still has not been answered: Where exactly was GZ’s truck parked when he left it, and what way was it facing? No testimony from any witnesses, or dashboard cam from the cop who ran it’s plates.

          My conclusion that GZ could have not only reached RVC, but gone South down it a short ways while running ws based on the location for the truck I showed in the animation, and my own timing of myself covering 100 yards. I’m 59, with knee and back problems, and can’t really run at all anymore. GZ could have easily beat my best pace without coming anywhere near an all out sprint. Remember he had been doing the MMA workouts for cardio…

  38. July 4, 2013 at 2:41 PM

    wassointeresting :
    @tchoupi, sure from our point of view it is highly suspicious for him to say he stood there in the rain for 2 minutes afraid of going back through the cut through without light. He sure didn’t sound “afraid” when he got off the phone with NEN. On the Hannity show, he claimed that it was only about 20 sec between the time he got off the phone until when he encountered TM. Is the difference between 20 sec and 2 minutes enough to convict him of murder 2 IF the jury believes him up until that point? I am afraid, really afraid at this point if the prosecution is supposed to wind down their case on Friday that if they don’t pull out the Ace card at that point that, then I don’t know when they would have the opportunity to do so while the defense presents their side.

    WSI, I’m not saying that the 2minutes following the end of the NEN is enough to convict GZ of M2. My point is that this is the main space-time issue in GZ’s story as it is the one that shows that he was hunting for TM.

    Obviously there is more to it: His non-existing wounds vs his claim of being savaged, his pacing by the inert body vs his claim of not knowing that the kid was dead, finally Rachel’s testimony.

    • July 4, 2013 at 3:36 PM

      That’s an inconsistency more than an outright lie but I see your point.

      Were I to have planned the prosecution strategy I’d have proven the lies first and tried to infer a pattern to his lies that was extended into the missing minutes. Lies of omission like the car to pedestrian chase ad the failure to mention the teen ran away, and lies of substitution such as the doubling back from the Cut thru that were the actions of George that he claims Trayvon did are good arguments to frame events of the missing minutes with. For instince I would ask the jury to consider why George seems to omit any information about what he did with his hands from his accounts of the altercation. And i would ask the jury to consider of a man who substituted his own doubling back for a false tale of the teen circling his car on an inpossible return trip would be likely to claim screams of the person he tried to detain as those of his own?

    • wassointeresting
      July 4, 2013 at 4:52 PM

      @tchoupi, I agree, there’s much more to the case against GZ than those missing minutes. I wasn’t implying that you’re basing everything two minutes as the cause for conviction. I guess I was just thinking aloud. I finally read something useful/reassuring to me written by Prof. Leatherman in his post today about the fact that he suspects Gilbreath will be the guy to testify after everything else to explain and tie things together. That was what I was looking for. I hope he does it methodically and effectively

  39. July 4, 2013 at 3:27 PM

    whonoze :
    Amazed that after all this time, and with the prosecution about to rest, my first big evidence question still has not been answered: Where exactly was GZ’s truck parked when he left it, and what way was it facing? No testimony from any witnesses, or dashboard cam from the cop who ran it’s plates.
    My conclusion that GZ could have not only reached RVC, but gone South down it a short ways while running ws based on the location for the truck I showed in the animation, and my own timing of myself covering 100 yards. I’m 59, with knee and back problems, and can’t really run at all anymore. GZ could have easily beat my best pace without coming anywhere near an all out sprint. Remember he had been doing the MMA workouts for cardio…

    This is frustrating that the information concerning GZ’s truck did not come out.
    They had T. Smith on the stand. He may have had the information.
    One ofc checked the truck. They did not bring him to the stand.
    Witness #3 is also critical.

    • wassointeresting
      July 4, 2013 at 4:59 PM

      The state was rather soft on Smith. I don’t think they asked him if he knew GZ or if he saw blood on GZ’s hands. I suppose they didn’t want to open the door for the defense to make it a case about the “failure of the cops to do their job that night which is why my client is facing M2 charges now.”

      Regarding the truck, the defense talked about the lady that recognized GZ’s truck. If they bring her on, they have to be confident that she saw it exactly where GZ said he did and facing the T.

      • July 4, 2013 at 8:30 PM

        They soft-peddled T. smith to an amazing degree if one thinks the goal was to get all the truth out in the open. And he was very nervous. His hand with the laser pen was noticeably shaking. At one point he used both hands to steady it.

        Smith may have seen a bystander when he passed the end of the dog walk as he moved from TTL to RVC . He claims to have seen a lone individual. It seems odd he arrived without his pistol drawn but that’s the conclusion I’ve reached.

        If GZ noticed the light from t smith he never mentioned it, and neither did W18 or Manalo/ w13. Perhaps some of the seeing of two flashlights comes from this moment however.

        I also think the conversation was a little bit longer and more casual than we’ve been shown in court.

        Perhaps the defense will call T Smith again and we will hear him asked more indepth questions.

    • July 4, 2013 at 8:09 PM

      Knowing what happened and getting a jury to vote guilty are two different things.

      Sadly that’s the way the cookie crumbles sometimes. We know where g claimed he parked and we know where frank Taaffe claimed “according to George” that he parked facing the other way. They are the same spot but there Is no proof.

      As for how far someone can travel in 24 seconds – looking forward to our middle aged guy foot race, lol.

      But I know George said he didn’t run.
      And I know he says he paused at the T which is logical to assume.

      Once agin we reach a difference of opinion. In the interst of taking another look at what’s possible I just tried it again. I agree it is possible to cover a hundred yards without an all out run but just barely. Whereas when I fast walk/ Jog for 24 seconds I get around 190 feet at a pace that seems reasonable for a person multitasking on the phone and keeping watch.

  40. July 4, 2013 at 10:53 PM

    I’m so sorry whonoze, but I only found your “new” post here a few hours ago so haven’t been able to congratulate you on it before. Oblivious, I was still from time to time checking the Trial 1 thread, assuming it wasn’t doing much of late because you were all watching the trial and commenting over at the lounge where many seem convinced it’s all done and dusted and a guilty verdict secured. Unfortunately I haven’t looked at my blog email for a week either, so missed the notification too.

    Anyway, even if belatedly, and with a lot of reading and catching up to do here, congrats on a great dissertation, and FWIW, I concur with everything, that the whole caboodle “went down” much as you note, just with a few of my own nuances here and there, none of any consequence to the gist so of little importance. For some time I ran with Trayvon punching GZ when they first met as he tried to question and bully him, but of late, as you, I also think he may have got the nose job during the scuffle… I can almost imagine him boasting to SPD how he was trying to make a citizen’s arrest had it happened early on !

    Yes, GZ is an incredibly slippery character, and as you note he has many get outs. Just as Osterman “got out” of what he wrote about how Trayvon’s hand “grabbed” GZ’s gun, not anywhere, but “between the grip and hammer”, by claiming he only heard the story twice and never took notes… yeah, pull the other one! So, imo, unless we get some slick CSI type forensics from the ME, with the prosecution’s case so far, it will be difficult to pin him BARD, and with what I at least see as many “reasonable doubts” flying around, and with Carter’s oh so helpful testimony to boot, I fear we could at best be looking at a hung jury… but then I have always been a “half empty” glass so, who knows !

  41. July 4, 2013 at 11:10 PM

    If anyone is interested, the Daily Kos has IMHO, (but IMBW !), an interesting read called “The Zimmerman Draw” on the difficulties of Trayvon going for GZ’s gun and the same for GZ drawing his gun… (Hope it embeds!)

    One thing I can’t recall it mentioning, is Trayvon couldn’t know the gun was, a) loaded, b) not a double action, and c) not have a safety clip… just more absurd lies on GZ’s pile ! A thought… could that be why the state had the gun expert go through all of the loading and firing actions ?

  42. July 5, 2013 at 6:51 AM

    Please check the new thread on crowd sourcing “things the prosecution has missed”. But please use that thread only for it’s intended purpose. and keep the general discussion here. That may entail some cross-posting, especially if you have a more lengthy commentary about something that seems to have been left out of the State’s case, that woud go under general trial discussion, while a concise description of the thing left out would go on the other thread.

    https://whonoze.wordpress.com/2013/07/05/missed/

    • ada4750
      July 5, 2013 at 7:11 AM

      This a very good idea. I’ll wait until the prosecution finishes its presentation.

      Shaeffer made ​​me panic with his shortened list of remaining witnesses. Prof Leatherman expects FDLE Detective Gilbreath to stand and review the all case from A to Z. I terribly hope so.

    • ada4750
      July 5, 2013 at 5:41 PM

      Anybody believe that so far the state did everything they can? I certainly believe not. A one million dollar question, why? Incompetence or on purpose?

      To be continued on the new thread.

      • wassointeresting
        July 5, 2013 at 5:59 PM

        I don’t know, I’m gonna have to reserve my judgement of the state until the trial is over, because I know ‘bupkus’ about trials. One would think they would have pulled out all the stops by now but then again, it was curious to me that they entered the wind/rain data as well as a small “timeline” chart today without really presenting it to the court. It’s as if it’s a teaser for what’s to come. Like I said before, they can’t badger their own witnesses but they can certainly go hard and full force on the defense’s witnesses (even if they’re the same people that were called by the state before.)

        • ada4750
          July 5, 2013 at 6:15 PM

          Strange indeed. Same for the Club House videos. The defense got almost no direct witness except W6. i have no idea how they can introduce theses videos now.

        • wassointeresting
          July 5, 2013 at 6:25 PM

          Oy vay. Just thinking back in opening statements when the defense took such pains to lay it all out, I thought surely, the state will expose every single lie that we’ve discussed here. However, they chose to focus a bit too much on the Sean Hannity Stand Your Ground Lie, which quite frankly, is a bit condescending to the jurors to think that they must be “slapped” with something so “obvious” in order to start disbelieving GZ. I was encouraged that Mantei in his response to the Defense’s motion to acquit today mentioned TM’s right to defend himself. I could telepathically hear Willisnewton screaming at the screen with Mantai’s ABSENCE or Lack of Emphasis on the car “chase” through the neighborhood, because they’re just letting the defense say “oh, it all started at the T with a punch in the face.” Right. That’s what most kids do on their way home from the store, look for somebody to punch in the face for no reason. They’ve gotta do better to convey TM’s mindset and how long he was creeped out GZ.

  43. wassointeresting
    July 5, 2013 at 3:13 PM

    That was so painful watching Dr. Bao’s testimony. I felt bad for the guy. Goes to show, you can be smart, good at your job but be a terrible witness. I’m not dissing his level of expertise, just that he was so worried about not messing up, he didn’t present himself well as an “expert” in cross examination. If only somebody who couldn’t have been accused of “coaching” him told him to just repeat “In my medical opinion” or “based on my experience”, done. I hope though that the jury can interpret that that’s what he meant when he kept saying “that’s just my opinion, it’s not fact”.

    • wassointeresting
      July 5, 2013 at 3:21 PM

      OMG, the state rests on Dr. Bao’s testimony??? SMH.

  44. wassointeresting
    July 5, 2013 at 3:41 PM

    Ok, I’ve heard it all now. O’Mara suggests that TM could have moved his arms after being shot. Sure, are we supposed to think that after GZ had sat on him for a period of time, that TM could have done a pushup in order to tuck his arms neatly under his body?

    • July 5, 2013 at 5:53 PM

      Yep, in 5 secs, TM got a bullet thru his heart, sat up, said “you got it”, fell off, GZ holstered his gun, went on top of TM, spread his harms. Then, without being released by GZ, TM put his hands under his body, just in time for Selma to see GZ straddling TM’s body.

  45. July 5, 2013 at 6:02 PM

    Told you that the 2min gap after the end of the NEN call is the main time issue in GZ’s narrative.

    I’m disappointed that the state failed using more evidences out of the cctv. However, I also understand that the videos are difficult to explain. I mean, you may not want to look like you’re trying to push at anything.
    Moreoever, I bought into Serino’s remark that is: “As far as I’m concerned, It started over there” meaning, GZ really really got off rails when he exits his truck to follow TM.

    • ada4750
      July 5, 2013 at 6:31 PM

      The jury would not have to look so long. They should had brought an expert who testifies that there nothing to see except what the light events that they he will present. All this seems impossible now. It would had be so easy and without any risk to try.

      This (and there is more) truly makes me doubt of the real will of the state the win.

  46. July 5, 2013 at 6:49 PM

    WHonoze, can you start a new thread? I think it is time, and will help the crowd-source thread NOT hijack the general discussion.

    It’s the defense;s turn now, and the state’s turn to rebut whatever they present. May as well segregate the two discussions somewhat.

    Talking heads on MSNBC claim MOM said he hoped to rest his case by Wednesday or thursday. That means he at least has a few more witnesses he wants to call. Let’s assume Crump is one of them.

    Who else might he call, or call back? W6/John Good seems likely.

    • racerrodig
      July 5, 2013 at 9:36 PM

      Isn’t Robbie the Racist on their list…..I can’t wait to hear his version.

  47. July 5, 2013 at 7:13 PM
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