Home > Uncategorized > ABC’s broadcast image of W13’s photo of GZ’s bloody head was altered via photo editing

ABC’s broadcast image of W13’s photo of GZ’s bloody head was altered via photo editing

Reconstructed from the tilt-up in this news clip: http://abcn.ws/HYKKMR

JonPhotoABCcomposite

Click on the photos to view them at full size.

I am convinced this photo has been edited. The black area under Zimmerman’s left ear has been painted in to cover something, probably something on or in his left hand. It is solid black with no variation in tone, and there is no black on Zimmerman’s jacket.

Just to the left of the black patch, an area on the ground appears to have been obscured by the use of Photoshop tools: Clone and/or Blur. Here is a detail enlarged 4X and with the midtone levels brightened to make the pixel pattern more apparent. The enlargement was done without an interpolating resampling algorithm (i.e. I used “nearest neighbor” in PS). The suspicious area is inside the red box. Note that the lower right corner of this area has a corner that bleeds over onto the sleeve on Zimmerman’s jacket.

JonPhotoABCdetail

In response to willisnewton’s argument that the black patch may be an authentic shadow:

Here is the photo with the midtone levels brightened all the way in PS:

JonPhotoABCmodtonesallup

And here is that image with the Threshold set at 1.

JonPhotoABClvlupthresh1

A natural shadow in that position in the frame would not stand out like that under this manipulation, nor have such clean edges.

And here is what the cuffs of GZ’s jacket look like under even indoor lighting:

GZopenjacket

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Categories: Uncategorized
  1. unitron
    April 17, 2013 at 1:00 PM

    ignore

    : – )

  2. racerrodig
    April 17, 2013 at 1:01 PM

    What’s just as or even more suspect is the shadowing above & below Fogen’s left ear. It does not match the other shadows. Look at the light patter on the left of his collar and his left ear.

    NOW look at the area above and forward of the blood pattern on the right side of his head. The shadows clearly show this is altered. The Professor discussed the possibility of the 2 pictures of Fogen being fake and does it matter. If they are, it goes against him, if not it goes against him……no matter what…..it sucks to be FogenPhoole.

    • April 17, 2013 at 1:20 PM

      I think those shadows on his head are probably natural, since, as willis noted in the previous thread, the iPhone flash is probably to the right of the lens, thus creating left-side shadows on the photo. However, if you look at the detail insert, I’m not sure what’s creating the light colored inverted ‘V’ shape between the shadow behind the ear and the black patch over the hand/cuff area.

      • racerrodig
        April 17, 2013 at 3:26 PM

        Maybe, but my best friend’s son does photography & computer work and he swears the shadows cannot be in this much conflict.

        • April 17, 2013 at 5:48 PM

          I see your point, racer, and it’s certainly possible. Do you have a guess as to why anyone would mess with that part of the image?

        • racerrodig
          April 17, 2013 at 10:25 PM

          I don’t know why they would mess with that specifically but in this case anything is possible. It’s possible whoever did it thought having it appear as though light was coming from direction X would make the cuts appear more severe.

  3. April 17, 2013 at 1:06 PM

    @ willis

    When you do your mock-up shots, can you have your model both squat and kneel? Looking at this again I think he may indeed be squatting, with his left arm resting across his left knee.

    • April 17, 2013 at 1:23 PM

      On third look, the left arm appears too high to be resting on the knee. Urggh…

      • amsterdam1234
        April 17, 2013 at 3:41 PM

        Could he be holding the phone with his left hand?

        • April 17, 2013 at 4:09 PM

          I don’t think so. Cell phones aren’t that big, and where his hand would be seems too far away to get a phone up to his right ear.

  4. April 17, 2013 at 1:35 PM

    I disagree that there has been any redactions here. You get different results with different sources and that’s all attributable IMO to the various codecs that were used to get the ORIGINAL photo file, WHICH WE DO NOT HAVE into a computer screen. Many conversions were made to this photo which as shown above is a composite only, pasted from multiple sources.

    In other versions I get different results. Until and unless we see the original I refuse to make a strong judgement.

    I agree it’s intriguing and deserves further study. Lacking the original I;m not sure we will agree however.

    regarding my attempt to recreate this for comparison’s purposes: I plan on making this model suffer.. don’t worry we are going to try quite a few things as long as I can keep his cooperation going. lol. I’m curious if the arm is parallel to the ground or is rising or falling. There seems to be a fold around the elbow.

    • April 17, 2013 at 1:49 PM

      It’s not multiple sources. It’s all frame exports from the same continuous “Ken Burns” pan-and-scan tilt shot in the clip downloaded directly from the ABC news site. Any other version you have has been more highly processed (or re-processed) to render on different screens. The only better public source we could have to show what ABC has done would be a full 1080i recording of the broadcast stream of that clip. Of course, a comparison to the original unaltered iPhone output file would be dispositive in revealing any changes. We’re not going to see that for another 2 months, if ever. I have a lot of experience looking at close details in video images that have been compressed with a variety of different codecs, and I have never seen any natural shadow area rendered into solid black, nor I have I seen a codec render the kind of specific anomalies in one and only one area of the frame that I see in that suspicious area on the ground.

      • April 17, 2013 at 7:25 PM

        “Better” is a relative term IMO. There is the original and then there is anything else, all of which are re-interpretations.

        In other copies I get blobs of color to appear in that curious shadow when you play with the levels slider. To me that just means various things are possible with re-interpreetations and we need to see the original before drawing conclusions.

    • April 17, 2013 at 4:10 PM

      willis, see my addenda to the OP above.

  5. April 17, 2013 at 1:38 PM

    The timestamp on W13’s photo is 7:19:07. W18 does not notice Smith’s approach to the crime scene until 7:19:29. Circa 7:19:45 W18 reports that GZ has raised his hands in the air, surrendering to Smith. Assuming these clocks are not way off in sync, the black patch cannot be covering handcuffs.

    • April 17, 2013 at 6:09 PM

      I agree that the “handcuffs” theory is almost entirely ruled out by all the careful work on the timeline. But the FIRST day I saw this photo that idea sprung into my head and it’s always bugged me. Then to discover, a year later that his arm is crossing his front in what seems to be a semi-awkward way…. I felt I’d be doing myself a disservice if I didn’t indulge one of my original hunches about the posture there.

      this case is so perplexing in some regards and the we all want to think “the truth is out there” in the evidence. Maybe it isn’t. Maybe it’s just what people believe, like what the jury will believe when they hear the evidence we already know points to a mendacious liar.

  6. amsterdam1234
    April 17, 2013 at 2:29 PM

    Do we actually know how ABC got that photo. Did they get it from Jon or did the defense leak it?
    Did the defense ever use this photo in one of their motions?

    • April 17, 2013 at 2:34 PM

      ABC purchased exclusive broadcast rights from Jon, so they got it from him directly, I don’t know about any defense team use of it.

      • amsterdam1234
        April 17, 2013 at 2:45 PM

        I think it has been edited. I am not a photogeek like you guys, so I never really paid much attention to the ABC banner, but I went back to check how ABC presented the photo. It is not just the banner, the lower left part of the photo is black, the banner just distracts from that fact.

        But what makes me believe ABC may have edited it, is the fact that the defense never uses that photo for its propaganda. They stick to the other photo.

        • April 17, 2013 at 6:13 PM

          What other photo? The one of his nose where he’s in the car? That’s a good point, that they don’t wave that photo around much. Of course some people think that one is manipulated too.

        • amsterdam1234
          April 17, 2013 at 6:22 PM

          @willis
          I don’t know about the other photo. What we do know about that photo is that it is part of the discovery. This one isn’t, and the defense isn’t screaming foul play. Iirc the defense used the nose photo as an exhibit in the 2nd bondhearing. And they used it in their motion for continuance. The reason we don’t have a good copy of this photo, is because it has been held back. Why is that?

        • April 17, 2013 at 6:54 PM

          Maybe the bloody head photo hasn’t been used because the injures are so obviously minor ones as far as lacerations go. The blood’s dried up already in places.

          But still it’s a point worth considering, that the defense isn’t up in arms about it. But if they had it, wouldn’t we? Meaning, if the defense was given the bloody head photo by the prosecution as part of the discovery process, why wasn’t it made available to the media?

          I’m confused. here, as usual.

          I’d be willing to guess that the defense isn’t complaining about the photo because they are incompetent.

        • amsterdam1234
          April 18, 2013 at 2:07 AM

          @willis,
          Those head injuries are their entire case. There is plenty of reason to question their competence, but this photo is Brady material, they have it but decided not to have it in the public domain.

          I think there must be something in that photo they don’t want out there. I have no clue what it is. Maybe the entire picture captures Trayvon and GZ has the gun in his hand. In that case no new information, but it doesn’t look good. I just don’t understand why ABC would edit it out.

  7. April 17, 2013 at 2:36 PM

    Re-posting the link to willis’s photo array establishing where W13 took the photo:

    superimposition of video screen grab and web photo by  ABC news

  8. April 17, 2013 at 6:36 PM

    I put up another speculative set, mostly about the left arm position, etc. Have fun with the circles and arrows and the usual amateur attempts to make sense of this hash.

    I’m genuinely surprised his arm is there.. what it means I don’t know.

    I’ll test the theory about his left hand holding the phone too. One never knows, I’m continually surprised by all the discoveries here.

  9. 2dogsonly
    April 17, 2013 at 7:47 PM

    I think he’s got left knee up, right knee on ground..guess a half kneel with left art balanced, a Tim Tebow pose, With left arm wrapped to phone. Jon offered to email this at end of FDLE interview ( OMG, how could I have forgotten that) but guess this way he was able to keep original, such a clever guy.

    I think reason MOM didn’t wave it around is because it’s so lacking in injury and blood flows toward ear. But I hope BDLR can use it along with a neurologist who will testify how vascular the scalp is. Even a small laceration will bleed buckets as anyone on jury will know from dentist or child getting bonked.

    Hope everyone is well. Almost to trial but I have my bit coins on a plea. I guess you know Shellie’s motion has been stayed till after hubby’s trial.

    Stay Strong For Trayvon

    • April 17, 2013 at 9:42 PM

      W13/Jon told the investigators that he’s taken the picture OFF his phone but still had it on his computer. Enter the conspiracy theories here… but I don’t blame him for removing a disturbing image – including two more taken near a dead or dying child – off his phone.

      Metadata was recorded onto the file as well. It doesn’t matter how the FDLE got the photo – via email or with a USB thumb drive, etc it’s a digital copy.

      The generational loss from the original was introduced when ABC News broadcast the image on television and uploaded their version to the web, both as a cropped still and as a “ken burns effect” moving animation of the still, each time with a graphic “exclusive” added over the image.

      I still don’t understand why this image was not part of the prosecution’s package of materials that was given to the MEDIA for distribution and publication. I’m assuming it was redacted like the photos of the deceased and the flashlight were supposed to be, (but were accidentally included in the form of a poorly reproduced b+w image but I don’t know the reasoning for not giving it out to the media except as a courtesy to w13 since he sold the rights to ABC News. Perhaps by the time Jon “gave” the image to investigators he was no longer the legal owner of it. Does anyone know the timeline here? The photo was broadcast around 20 APR 2012 by ABC News but the FDLE interview was before then.

      I can’t imaging ABC News having the image for long before broadcasting it. Less than 24 hours I’d imagine, but the negotiation to sell or license the image may have taken longer. Jon of course said nothing about not owning the image during his FDLE interview.

      Then one has to wonder who called whom first. Did w13 call ABC and offer to sell the image, or did ABC News contact him to ask for an interview, etc and only then fins the image, or did someone inside the investigation leak information to ABC who then called Jon? Of all of these, the last one sounds the most plausible to me.

      I don’t recall any recordings of GZ telling the SPD investigators that “there was a photo taken of my head” in the material that I’ve heard.

      Jon may have taken the picture in order to show George his injuries after George asked him, “am i bleeding back there?”

      • amsterdam1234
        April 18, 2013 at 2:13 AM

        Jon produced the photo during his march 20th interview with FDLE.

      • April 18, 2013 at 8:27 AM

        In the recorded interview, WHILE they are talking about Jon maybe emailing the photo, you can hear what sounds like a CD drawer opening and closing. I think he copied it to CD and gave it to them on the spot.

        Still a digital copy, anyway.

  10. 2dogsonly
    April 17, 2013 at 7:49 PM

    Left arm( not art)
    Your clearly OCD poster;-)

  11. April 17, 2013 at 8:43 PM

    There are TWO light sources for this photo I believe. One was the iPhone’s built in flash, which is closely aligned with the lens such that close objects centered in the middle of the frame create a shadow that is unseen behind the object being shot: the other light source is the flashlight that w13/Jon carried to the scene. I think he has one in each of his hands and therefor the light sources are probably about 14-20 inches apart.

    If he is shooting right handed and holding the light in his left, shadows would cast to the right of frame. If the flashlight were higher than the lens the shadows would cast downward, etc.

    Bear this in mind when wondering about the shadows seen in the photo.

    One reason I think he’s got a flashlight, besides the fact that people saw him, is that the image is relatively in good focus. In darkness the phone can’t know where to focus the lens since it can’t detect detail to sharpen.

    It’s possible the photo was taken with ONLY the flashlight but the sharp contrast and obvious “hot spot” of over-exposure at the top of the head makes me think it was both flashlight and flash working here.

    Still waiting for darkness to do tests.

    But the mystery shadow may be caused by the flashlight casting a shadow of the head, ear, or jacket collar downwards onto the left arm. There’s often an easy explanation for these mysteries.

    • LeaNder
      April 18, 2013 at 1:23 AM

      Interesting little excursion. Willis et al, Seems I am very, very close to you.

      My sense of reality tells me there is nothing much to find there. Yes, maybe odd that this image is nowhere to be found in it’s original copy. On the other hand it had been published quite early. As evidence for GZ’s tale, in fact. I remember Jonathan Turley, who was basically skeptical about GZ’s narrative, also considers SYG legally superfluous and ultimately dangerous from a law profs perspective, but considered the photo supportive of GZ’s narrative too. So I don’t think it’s curious we do not hear of it anymore. It’s old news. O’Mara waved Wagner’s photo around since it added to the older photos evidential force, from his perspective.

      But your little left shoulder exercise finally got me puzzled. Not really because of the shoulder but because of the pixel chaos of the concrete tiles on the right bottom. So far I interpreted it as George’s right shoulder facing the grass and his left the concrete footpath, more precisely I saw the path running somehow parallel to the right edge of the photo North and South respectively beyond the photos edges. .I didn’t understand the business about the crack. I simply didn’t see it. Just another joint in one of the many tiles, I thought.

      Seems your shoulder experiments somehow got me. Suddenly the pixel chaos on the right hand bottom of the photo suggest an edge or the end of the path. But I wouldn’t even start to bother thinking about it without having the original photo, as your suggested above. What puzzled me is why this seemed to look different than in the other photos I saw before. I have to check that.

      Concerning your shoulder experiment, I agree concerning the knee. Mainly due to the shape. There doesn’t seem to be such a huge difference between the gray of the jacket and the blue of the pants. I also immediately thought, he wasn’t kneeing, squatting seems to make more sense, He could also sit in some type of semi tailor-fashion on the ground. Although squatting seems to be the most likely. Kneeing? Well one never knows with those Catholic altar boys. 😉 Zipper, hmm? So far I couldn’t follow you there. I’ll try to understand what you mean.

      How did all this start?

      • amsterdam1234
        April 18, 2013 at 10:23 AM

        Willis spend a lot of time and effort on figuring out the location of the evidence and the body long before we had that information available. He was able to piece the evidence together by collecting photos and videos of the area, and he did a pretty good job.

        Willis was voicing his frustration about not being able to find out where Jon and GZ were when Jon took the photo because ABC had this damn logo over it and this photo was not part of the discovery.

        I found a YouTube thumbnail of a ABC news story without the logo. In the video itself ABC panned over the photo while the logo was displayed over it. But the panning did expose the part of the photo that was always hidden underneath the logo.
        Whonoze was able to create a complete image from that video.

        So the search for the complete photo was to find the location, but Willis and Whonoze discovered some odd pixelations in the previously hidden part of the photo.

        That’s how it started.

        • LeaNder
          April 18, 2013 at 7:10 PM

          Thanks, Amsterdam, that was helpful.

      • April 18, 2013 at 10:52 AM

        @LeaNder

        I also immediately thought, he wasn’t kneeing, squatting seems to make more sense, He could also sit in some type of semi tailor-fashion on the ground. Although squatting seems to be the most likely.

        I have been ruminating about him “kneeling” in the photo niggled by something not being right and I suddenly thought… yes, it was wet, cut grass! Wouldn’t GZ have wet or stained jeans over the knees? How long after the incident did SPD take the photos at the station? Had he already changed his clothes, although that wouldn’t make much sense at all. But looking at his knees in the photos you wouldn’t think he’d ever lain on them let alone knelt on them… which brings me to a problem, does anyone have an explanation? Otherwise the wrestle or scuffle with GZ ALWAYS on top as prevalent in the lounge would be very much awry?

        • April 18, 2013 at 12:47 PM

          Looks like his right foot or knee would be on the grass to me, and his left foot or knee on the sidewalk, and maybe atop the tan bag even. For all we know he kneeled on the bag to keep his pants drier, even placing it there on purpose. We just don’t know.

          Plus, my model flaked out on me last night, even though it rained here… I was so ready to shoot – sorta. I’m going to take the extra time to get a better facsimile of the fleece jacket if I can. I’m going to try to find a few different styles of flashlight to use as well.

          I also got a tan 7Eleven bag and 7Eleven receipt – but I ate the skittles when I got bored…. go figure. They taste like soap to me. I don’t get why kids like them so much. (Must be the cough syrup, right? / snark)

        • April 18, 2013 at 4:16 PM

          @willis
          Ok so model flaked out, skittles were munched, and your still looking for a fleece …. hold on a minute… fleece… did you say fleece?! Fleece as in shaun, baaa, and bo peep? I realize GZ is like a wolf in sheep’s clothing, with his “yes sir, no sir, three bag’s full sir”, but I could swear his jacket was some kind of nylon or polyester mix!

          Sorry to read about your equipment and that insurance won’t cover it. My condolences. Sure it must be pretty grim.

          For the shoot, perhaps you could try feeding skittles to the model to keep them from flaking and you from getting bored.

        • LeaNder
          April 18, 2013 at 7:18 PM

          How long after the incident did SPD take the photos at the station?

          I was after 11 p.m (11:15?) as far as I remember. The photos were done by the same person that first did the crime scene photos, so strictly the argument abut wet knees or whatever is not valid anymore at that point in time. It feels. I maybe wrong but I think Diana Smith was the photographer, should be 1st discover. I am not sure if I understand your last sentence, gbrbsb.

        • April 18, 2013 at 8:09 PM

          Thanks for info. You’re right, there would have been plenty of time for his knees to dry. Anyway, if Jon said he was in a squat then it is probably less likely he was kneeling. You have answered my last question with the time between event and photos… his knees would be dry even had he been astride Trayvon the whole time.

        • April 18, 2013 at 9:25 PM

          The photos at the station were taken about 15 minutes before midnight – in other words well over 4 hours after. Plenty of time to dry out and dirt to fall/be brushed off. He’d also been allowed at least one unsupervised trip to the bathroom.

      • April 18, 2013 at 12:50 PM

        when you say pixel chaos of the right bottom, I think you may mean the left bottom, right? You said right but meant left right? lol Am i right that you said right when you meant left? etc.

        • LeaNder
          April 18, 2013 at 7:22 PM

          Yes, Willis, of course. Did I write left? Right of course. I need some sleep to night, didn’t get much lately. I guess I was pretty tired too, when I wrote that. No excuse strictly, but there you go. 😉

  12. April 18, 2013 at 9:53 AM

    Willi, Whonoze, I’ve been skeptical that Jon’s picture of GZ’s head will lead anywhere and I haven’t changed opinion.
    There is one information coming out of this work is that it seems to confirm one of JonW13’s statements. On March 20 he said:
    “So as I got closer he said, ‘Am I bleeding?’ And I look at him and he’s got blood on his face. ‘Yeah. You’re bleeding.’ And he turns around and he kind of squats down on the sidewalk and I could see blood on the back of his head, grass stains.”

    The discussion around GZ’s position in the picture was described by JonM as a kind of squat.

  13. April 18, 2013 at 12:40 PM

    tchoupi –

    I gained a slightly better understanding of the circumstances of the aftermath from all this by being able to place the spot where GZ did his turn-around/squat for W13.

    W13, to FDLE: “And I went through the garage carrying a flashlight and my cell phone. I had my cell phone set for 911 and all I had to do was push ‘call’ on it. And when I got around the corner I slowed down and I was shining my flashlight on the guy. And I think he was on the phone ’cause it sounded like he was on the phone. And so I shined my flashlight on him and I said, “Do I need to call 911?” He says, “No, I just got off the phone with them.” I said, “Okay.” So as I got closer he said, “Am I bleeding?” And I look at him and he’s got blood on his face. “Yeah. You’re bleeding.” And he turns around and he kind of squats down on the sidewalk and I could see blood on the back of his head, grass stains. And by that time I kind of flashed my light down and there was this kid face down in the grass. By that time the police showed up and one officer went ahead and handcuffed him. From there it was, you know, “Can you please call my wife and let her know what happened?” So I called and I said, you know, “Your husband has been involved in a shooting. And he’s going to be held for questioning. He’s been handcuffed and he’s going to be held for questioning.” And it was kinda like a little… I kinda made it almost like it was a little long winded. But… he says, “Just tell her I shot somebody.” So I thought, okay, “Well, he just shot someone.” After that, that was it. And law enforcement… or more law enforcement came in and started doing CPR on the kid. And after that paramedics soon arrived and there was nothing they could do for the kid. And that was it pretty much. I was just outside with the remainder of the law enforcement just waiting to answer their questions and filling out the report like that one. ”

    This tells me that from near “the corner” to 30 feet down the T, Jon was able to shine HIS flashlight and get a decent look at George, or to at least identify there was someone there on the sidewalk from the angle he was seeing. George himself MAY have done a similar search with his keychain flashlight to illuminate TM, we don’t know, but here Jon confirms the distance and light levels make it possible at least.

    It also makes me WONDER about something I saw long ago, and that was some clues that suggested GZ DID call 911 but hung up at some point. I’d like to revisit those clues that made me wonder about this incident. I don’t have the details at my fingertips but some of the regulars here have spoken about it in the distant past. I seem to recall it was part of some very early releases of call records, pre-discovery and maybe some stuff that was made public by the Sanford city council’s efforts but later taken down off their city website.

    The suggestion would be that maybe GZ was calling BACK but didn’t get thru yet, and was interrupted by the arrival of w13, and that this is why he’s got a phone up to his ear. But this isn’t 100% agreeing with W13, who also said he felt GZ was TALKING on the phone as he arrived. So he’s talking to someone, and it may or may not be Shellie, since he did seem to ask Jon to call her or speak to her after he was handcuffed. Again we have many possibilities, none of which totally align with the witness interviews and GZ’s statements to SPD. Jon of course has little to no known motivation to lie, and GZ has everything precious to him in the world to lose or gain by telling the right story.

    We know that GZ managed to get a message to someone who moved the truck before it was impounded or searched. We “know” that he didn’t explicitly tell Jon to relay that message to Shellie. We know he seemed to be speaking to someone on his cell phone as his photo was taken, and now we think he may have even had his left hand cupped over the mouthpiece and that whatever he was saying, Jon didn’t seem to catch any of it, even tho he was literally standing right next to him and on top of him at the time of some of the call.

    We also think that Mark Osterman arrived on the scene at a time different than he says in his “book,” and that he admitted to FDLE that he spoke with GZ on the scene, when he says his contact was “only brief” I think were his words. I’d like to confirm that here with others…

    I don’t know what he claims in his book, but I think he says he DIDN’T speak to George on the scene.

    The EMTs may or may not know something, because if MO did speak with GZ, it was likely around the time he was examined and cleaned up by them prior to transport to the SPD cop shop.

    Did GZ call MO first? Did GZ tell MO to move the truck, but to get the keys from Shellie? Who actually moved the vehicle, and when and why and what was in it? Jon says he saw the lighted keychain flashlight at the T, but is he really saying he saw it there AS he approached GZ or is he saying he saw it around that time, and how and when did it get there? Is the lighted keychain flashlight ring holding a key to the Honda ridgeline? Was the key in the ridgeline already? Opinions and possibilities abound.

    There are innocent and sinister possibilities for every bit of this, and not much likelihood of our ever knowing the whole story.

    George is likely to “go down swinging” and to maintain his innocence after his conviction by Judge Lester’s court, for the purposes of appeal, although he’d be better served by a plea bargain IMO. Absent a full and credible confession, we are just not going to get all the answers we seek.

    One thing that stands out to me in W13s account above is the way he describes the handcuffing: ” By that time the police showed up and one officer went ahead and handcuffed him. ”

    He makes it sound like it’s a reluctant gesture somehow just “going through the formalities even though, you know, wink wink, we can all see you are a white dude and that’s a black thug there but I gotta follow procedure and all.” How did the cop know not to put W13/Jon in cuffs too, or that he wasn’t an accomplice, or armed, or a burglar, etc? There had to be some sort of exchange there. And possibly it was that Jon was doing his tourist thing, taking flash photos of the dying or dead teen and that’s what made his seem like such a bystander. Jon mentions no exchange of words or commands. Ofc TIm Smith doesn’t mention Jon at all. And yet, for all the world knew at that moment, Jon/W13 could have been a murderer. Yet he wasn’t even treated as ANYTHING, a bystander, a witness, a citizen who needed to leave a crime scene before he contaminated it, a person who could check the pulse of a dying or dead person not fifteen feet away… it’s all so weird. Everyone seems so casual the way Jon puts it. I’m guessing that GZ’s demeanor helped set the tone. Elsewhere we learn they (GZ and Jon) had chit chat about the caliber of weapon used in the killing, as if it were shop talk about what socket wrench to use on an exhaust manifold bolt. It’s chilling to imagine in any scenario one can paint. The teen was likely experiencing the last moments of brain function while they made small talk. Then there is the question of when they had TIME to discuss caliber. Was that WHILE GZ was holding the phone to his head? After? Before?

    People love to speculate. Many things are possible. What GZ claims happened isn’t possible.

    • April 18, 2013 at 1:02 PM

      Willi,

      There is a lot of statements you claim we I’m not sure we really know.

      What I’m sure I know is that GZ with holding his phone to his ears. I’m also sure of is that JonM eared something that makes him think that GM was on the phone.

      Who was he calling? Did he reached that person? Did he talk to that person or at least left a message on a voicemail? Was there instructions or request for help given? All of this is unknown to me.

      The link was GZ’s truck cannot be made from what I know.
      I may be able to make a link between Mary/Selma and JayneW18 statement and GZ’s [attempted] call[s]. The 3 witnesses claim seeing GZ put his hand on/near his head soon after raising up. It probably is just him starting to call.

      • April 18, 2013 at 1:47 PM

        I dont disagree with any of this. More questions than answers.. and of course I’m speculating where we can’t yet know answers in places.

    • April 18, 2013 at 3:38 PM

      I don’t have time to back and check these out in detail right now, but IIRC Jon’s statement above seems to have some gaps in reference to W18’s account. Again IIRC, W18 says GZ got up and walked toward the T, taking a more or less direct line to her window. And IIRC, she places GZ still up at the T when Jon came around the corner with his flashlight.

      It would seem they started their small talk there at the T, and then walked back toward the body. At 7:18:38. John reports TWO guys in his back yard with flashlights. Thus, i conclude GZ still had his mini-flashlight at this point and was using it along with W13 using his flashlight, to look at Trayvon’s body.

      The fatal shot was fired at 7:16:56. W18 notices GZ walking toward her at 7:17:47 and then almost immediately sees W13 approach the scene (at 7:17:53). So, assuming the times on the 911 calls and Jon’s iPhone are both synched to accurate external clocks, the photo was taken ~65 seconds after John met up with GZ and only about 22 seconds before Smith arrived. So this kind of problematizes Jon’s account of GZ being on the phone when he first saw him, and then squatting down immediately.

      Jon’s not clear about when he called Shellie, whether it was before or after Smith arrived. It would seem it was AFTER since he says he told Shellie, “He’s been handcuffed and he’s going to be held for questioning.”

      Anyway, if GZ putting his hand to his ear as he walked toward the T was him attempting to make a phone call, then he either had the phone to his ear for at least 2 minutes and 15 seconds, or made one (attempted) call, ended that and redialed another (attempted) call.

      If the first thing Jon saw when he arrived was GZ talking on the phone, and the first thing Jon said was, “Should I call 911?” (which we can’t know to be the case, but seems like a logical sequence of events) then the distance in time between Jon’s arrival and the time stamp on the photo points to TWO calls (or attempts) by GZ. We can also postulate that GZ did NOT, in fact, call 911 after the shot because that certainly would have shown up in the police logs.

      When (if?) GZ’s phone records are made public, we will be able to coordinate them with Jon’s photo, the witness observations recorded and times thereof established in the 911 calls, and the witness statements to investigators — as pieces of a puzzle fitting together — to obtain a more clear understanding of exactly what occurred and when between the time the shot was fired and GZ was taken into custody by Smith.

      • April 18, 2013 at 9:36 PM

        Isn’t that “22 seconds” to Smith arriving the time logged for driving in?? another minute and a bit to walk down to the scene.

    • LeaNder
      April 18, 2013 at 7:57 PM

      Willis, I never thought I would. But I did buy a ebook copy of the Osterman book. Or the Osterman’s book. They have a ghostwriter of course, but so what.

      In any case concerning SZ and MO on the scene, the story is: They arrive there and see GZ in the police car. GZ supposedly ducks away since he does not want Shellie to see him there. As he later explained it.

      If you want a copy of the pdf or book file send a note to walter.steinway(at)gmail.com. For the pdf file it would be helpful if you had a gmail account. It’s too big to send to the average email.account. Gmail has an option to share these bigger files. I managed to convert the ebook file with Calibre to Kindle, strictly that tool should work to convert the file to any other type that may exist out there. I forget now what special document type it is. That file though would be much smaller.

      It’s not completely uninteresting. And it’s a really fast read. But don’t expect revelations beyond nasics concerning the first time after the shooting. . They stood there for a first few weeks, then GZ left and SZ stood with them a little longer. There are quite a bit of religious overtones and GZ is the “sacrificial lamb” of course.

    • unitron
      April 25, 2013 at 8:51 AM

      I’m guessing some of that post is recycled, like the part about Judge Lester.

      Since it seems not to have occurred to the police that the truck was of importance, and since it was still sitting there an hour after they took Zimmerman to the police station and who knows how much longer, he could have told his wife or Osterman to move it when they brought him a change of clothes.

      Or one of them could have thought of it by themselves, or when George finally left the cop shop they could have dropped him off to drive it away himself.

  14. April 18, 2013 at 1:09 PM

    tchoupicaillou :

    I’ve been skeptical that Jon’s picture of GZ’s head will lead anywhere and I haven’t changed opinion.

    There are two separate issues. 1) Where our examination of ABC’s broadcast version of the photo will lead us. 2) Where the unaltered ‘original’ version of the photo may lead at trial.

    From the ABC version willis has already learned exactly where GZ and Jon were when the photo was taken. We should be able to figure out whether GZ was kneeling or squatting. These things relate to supporting or undercutting both GZ’s and Jon’s statements. If he was kneeling, that could be consistent with him suffering enough from the struggle that he was momentarily unable to stand. If he was squatting, that requires good balance and muscle contro,l and would be another indication that he did not receive anything like significant head trauma in the altercation. We also, of course, have been able to use the ABC photo in comparison the the SPD photos to establish the severity and nature of the cuts on the back of GZ’s head, and to analyze what the blood trails from the cuts tell us about GZ’s physical position as he was bleeding — i.e. he was, on average, more or less face down with his head turned slightly to the right. We can also discern from the ABC version whether or not the photo has been redacted. If it has, we can make a strong guess that there is information in the original that might be relevant at trial, although we can only make highly speculative guesses as to what that information might be. That is, we will not be able to say ‘that’s probably the 7-11 bag on the ground, and that looks like the Skittles bag on top of it’ though, given the position of the photo relative to the documented location where the bag was found we may certainly wonder whether the original image file would reveal the bag lying on the sidewalk.

    IF there is something obscured on the ground, or in the vicinity of GZ’s left hand, these things might or might not be relevant to the case. If the bag is identifiable in the original, that lends support (though not proof BRD) to the idea that GZ frisked TM and removed items from TM’s pocket. If something is in GZ’s left hand, that something could also be relevant. He could b e holding the Skittles, or the Arizona can, or his gun. How (or maybe just if) the photo is introduced at trial will tell us something about the strategies being employed by the two sides.

    If we never see the ‘original’ we will always wonder what ABC covered-up. (Yes i am 100% convinced the black patch is painted in, and not a shadow. And I am confident that willis will not be able to reproduce such a shadow in his test shoots, no matter how he holds a flashlight in addition to the iPhone flash…)

  15. April 18, 2013 at 1:11 PM

    willisnewton :

    I’m going to take the extra time to get a better facsimile of the fleece jacket if I can.

    The jacket certainly looks to me to be nylon, not fleece.

    • April 18, 2013 at 1:57 PM

      Thanks, I’ll try to find both just so we know. Sadly, I would also shoot test copies of the SPD photos both of GZ indoors and also the tan bag on the sidewalk, etc for comparison but recently had a thief break into my car and steal ALL of my best digital HDSLR cameras and at least a dozen of my best lenses as I stopped for a burger, breaking my own standing rule of never leaving my gear in the back seat unattended. I’m out about nine or ten grand worth of hand-picked lenses and custom cases, individually sourced exotic parts, infrared and time lapse equipment, etc. etc. Insurance is NOT going to pay me back and the cops NEVER find this stuff.

      Basically, I’m down to my iPhone and some junk cameras that are bric-a-brak on my shelved now.

      There are some bad, low people in the world, aren’t there?

      • 2dogsonly
        April 18, 2013 at 2:13 PM

        Willis, that is horrible.so very sorry .
        Apparently w13 took 3 photos? I just went to transcribed statements and that is what he tells Valdry(?)

        I thought a detective took some photos too and uploaded them to his work laptop and had a cow when he remembered them a few weeks later.i thought the bloody nose pix was taken by cop.

        • April 18, 2013 at 2:30 PM

          Not a detective. Ofc. Michael Wagner took the pic of GZ’s bloody nose as Z was sitting in T. Smith’s cruiser. This is AFAIK the only photo Wagner took. He claims he transferred it to his computer, erased it from his iPhone, forgot about it, and only remembered some two weeks later and turned it over to the detectives.

          I am convinced this image has been photoshopped to make GZ’s nose injury appear more severe, as I believe the shape of the nose in the photo is anatomically impossible under any conditions, and especially so given that TM had no significant injuries on his hands. My assumed motive for this shenanigans is that the SPD were trying to cover-up their decision not only to let GZ go on the night of the shooting, but to not make a serious investigation into the case that would lead to charges.

        • April 18, 2013 at 2:34 PM

          Right. GZ did not call 911 that we know. It appears he was lying while the teen was bleeding to death. A classy move on his part, huh?

          And yes, w13 took three pictures, NONE of which the public has in original form, but all three have at least been somewhat seen through degraded quality copies. The other two photos were facing the body, shot from the sidewalk area SOUTH of where GZ crouched looking towards JohnW6’s patio. One clearly shows the tactical flashlight and the other focused on the body itself, and has the tactical flashlight in the foreground. Both might show details about the body post-frisking biut before first responders reached the dead or dying teen. The SAO inadvertently included as discovery documents b+w photocopy quality versions of the two pictures facing towards the body to the media, and they had meant them to remain under seal, presumably as a matter of decorum since they showed a dying or deceased victim of a shooting in question.

          They are semi graphic in nature and you can find them if you look. I did some comparisons with SPD photos of the crime scene to try and interpret where the body actually was, and determine the distance that GZ claims he “stumbled” to arrive at the area. His contradictory account seem less than credible to me but I am biased by also believing he is a poor liar and this is easily proven if you examine a map and his NEN call alone, much less begin to examine the clubhouse videos and W8s interview statements that detail a slow but deliberate, aggressive car-to-pedestrian chase down TTL that likely caused the teen to run off the roadway in fear.

        • April 18, 2013 at 2:46 PM

          IIRC Ofc Wagner took 2 pics: the 1st was that of GZ’s face (we all know that one) the 2nd is that of TM’s face.

      • April 18, 2013 at 2:23 PM

        Are you sure about your insurance? If you haven’t made a police report, you can tell the insurance co. your car was locked and parked at your house. I’ve had stuff stolen out of my car under those conditions (they broke through a window), and also out of my then apartment’s parking garage, and both times my insurance covered it. I suppose it depends on how the policy is written…

        • April 18, 2013 at 2:52 PM

          I’ve recently moved and have no current policy to make a claim against as a renter. It was a foolish decision not to have the gear insured but what’s done is done. I’m a freelancer and recently back in college to get a masters so I can teach what I know now that i’m getting old and too tired to play the freelancer game as hard. Money is very tight w me at present and this was a huge loss.

          I’ve basically lost the tools of my trade and the best way to get the dough to replace them at the same time. I’ll be painting houses this summer for a low wage now for the first time in decades instead of making my money a few days a month shooting little jobs that pay well. Welcome to the new economy.

          Also, precious irreplaceable documentary film footage of a home birth was stolen and won’t be recovered, as well as about half of a client’s wedding.

          It sucks about as much as things can suck without injury or loss of life or limb, which is what it feels like – like I lost my right eyeball kinda. But I’m alive and no one was harmed physically, etc. The thieves have their karma to carry and I’m still a photographer with my same skill set and a bitter lesson to carry around. I may never build up a kit like that again… it’s just too painful to lose it all.

          “No glass or electronics in the vehicle” has been my standard manta for over two decades, and I’ve eaten many a meal either sitting in a van or with a motion picture camera beside me at the table over the years. This time I parked in a different spot, and couldn’t sit where I usually do to see my car at the same time. It was a burger place and I wasn’t there long at all.

          It was a brazen robbery and just one of those things. I’d helped a friend built a skateboard ramp earlier that day for his son’s sixth birthday and a circular saw was on top of the hard cases in the back seat. I think the thieves thought they were getting construction worker tools. They also got my car and bicycle tool box with all my craftsman sockets, etc. Just the sort of stuff that feels so personal, you know? No good deed goes unpunished.

          Thanks for the condolences. I know you probably know how I feel.

        • April 18, 2013 at 5:18 PM

          There are days like this you wish you stayed home. Sorry Willi,

        • April 18, 2013 at 6:03 PM

          @willis

          Not that painting is a bad thing, but can you keep your photo business going by going back to 35mm? The gear is really cheap now, including any good glass that won’t mount on a DSLR even w. an adapter due to the flange focal length (Canon FD, for example). Just a thought…

      • amsterdam1234
        April 18, 2013 at 2:59 PM

        I am sorry about that Willis.

        • April 18, 2013 at 6:55 PM

          thanks. I asked my brother how he would feel if some jerk stole his prized and nearly priceless 1959 Fender Statocaster and he said he’d feel awful but would keep in mind that they didn’t still his ability to call himself a musician, or his skills as a picker. I feel the same way, although I do wish I could know somehow that justice is coming for the wicked.

          It’s coming for GZ.

        • amsterdam1234
          April 18, 2013 at 7:47 PM

          It is diificult to let go, if you are continuously reminded of it in your daily life. Did you check eBay? It sounds like you had a pretty unique collection, maybe you’ll recognize it if someone is trying to sell it.

        • April 18, 2013 at 9:50 PM

          Not just ebay, how about the pawn shops in nearby areas? ring around first and ask if they have any good gear. Don’t be too specific, if they twig you’re maybe the rightful owner they’ll deny having it. If they don’t carry that sort of gear, they might tell you who they nearby who does.

          If you find some of your stuff, it’s up to you if you just buy it back, or make a claim. If you can prove it’s yours, and have made a police report, I do believe you could get them back for free. The shop will be in trouble if they didn’t get good ID off the person they bought it from.

      • 2dogsonly
        April 19, 2013 at 12:04 AM

        Willis, also check Craig’s List. Would your auto ins. cover theft? But I think Craig’s List is best bet. Probably need to make police report in case it is listed and you can write it off own taxes as business loss.

  16. 2dogsonly
    April 18, 2013 at 2:17 PM

    Reading w13 transcribed statement , he says GZ was on phone when he came up to him and when he said I’ll call 911, GZ answered ” I’ve already done that”

  17. April 18, 2013 at 5:15 PM

    whonoze :
    I don’t have time to back and check these out in detail right now, but IIRC Jon’s statement above seems to have some gaps in reference to W18′s account.

    This is why I believe it is very important to try reconstructing the events as told by all witnesses. I believe that if we stick to what is common between the narratives from the various witnesses or to what can be backed with evidences, we should be able to build a robust chain of events from the start of the arguments to the arrival of T. Smith.

    whonoze :
    Again IIRC, W18 says GZ got up and walked toward the T, taking a more or less direct line to her window. And IIRC, she places GZ still up at the T when Jon came around the corner with his flashlight.

    Note that JonW13 says “when I got around the corner I slowed down and I was shining my flashlight on the guy.” JonM doesn’t say what corner. Is it that near the T (north-west corner) or that near RVC (north-east corner)?
    However, JaynW18 sees GZ standing up and walking toward her just seconds before she noticed JonM coming with his flashlight. So, I can deduce that JonM refers to the 1st corner, the one that is at the northeast corner. This is from their that he noticed GZ.

    It would seem they started their small talk there at the T, and then walked back toward the body. At 7:18:38. John reports TWO guys in his back yard with flashlights. Thus, i conclude GZ still had his mini-flashlight at this point and was using it along with W13 using his flashlight, to look at Trayvon’s body.

    I think I remember JonM saying, during one interview, that he noticed the flashlight near the poop station. I believe. If it is confirmed then that flashlight with the key attached to it where on the ground already.

    The fatal shot was fired at 7:16:56. W18 notices GZ walking toward her at 7:17:47 and then almost immediately sees W13 approach the scene (at 7:17:53). So, assuming the times on the 911 calls and Jon’s iPhone are both synched to accurate external clocks, the photo was taken ~65 seconds after John met up with GZ and only about 22 seconds before Smith arrived. So this kind of problematizes Jon’s account of GZ being on the phone when he first saw him, and then squatting down immediately.
    Jon’s not clear about when he called Shellie, whether it was before or after Smith arrived. It would seem it was AFTER since he says he told Shellie, “He’s been handcuffed and he’s going to be held for questioning.”
    Anyway, if GZ putting his hand to his ear as he walked toward the T was him attempting to make a phone call, then he either had the phone to his ear for at least 2 minutes and 15 seconds, or made one (attempted) call, ended that and redialed another (attempted) call.

    You may be omitting Selma & Mary. I believe they are the ones having valuable information about the 1st minute following the shooting. Indeed, the connection time of Mary’s 911 call confirms that she must have been out within seconds from the gunshot as she claims. GZ doesn’t even remember her. However, she and Selma remember him
    and they explained what they saw him doing. He didn’t put his hands to his head immediately. Furthermore, no one said he stayed with his hands to his head for 2minutes.

    If the first thing Jon saw when he arrived was GZ talking on the phone, and the first thing Jon said was, “Should I call 911?” (which we can’t know to be the case, but seems like a logical sequence of events) then the distance in time between Jon’s arrival and the time stamp on the photo points to TWO calls (or attempts) by GZ. We can also postulate that GZ did NOT, in fact, call 911 after the shot because that certainly would have shown up in the police logs.

    I believe you’re right. The sequence of events is probably that after the gun went off, he had a few seconds before Selma/Mary started to try communicating with him. Then he stood up. Tried calling someone using his blackberry, hence the pacing Selma describes. He may have reached that person. Anyhow, JonM arrived and they started interacting. He then tried calling again on his phone when T. Smith arrived. He handed his phone to JonM and asked him to call his wife.

    When (if?) GZ’s phone records are made public, we will be able to coordinate them with Jon’s photo, the witness observations recorded and times thereof established in the 911 calls, and the witness statements to investigators — as pieces of a puzzle fitting together — to obtain a more clear understanding of exactly what occurred and when between the time the shot was fired and GZ was taken into custody by Smith.

    I believe we already start placing the pieces of the puzzle we have.

    Thanks

    • amsterdam1234
      April 18, 2013 at 7:24 PM

      This is why I believe it is very important to try reconstructing the events as told by all witnesses. I believe that if we stick to what is common between the narratives from the various witnesses or to what can be backed with evidences, we should be able to build a robust chain of events from the start of the arguments to the arrival of T. Smith.

      I agree with you. Once you start looking what all of the witnesses are saying, it starts to make sense.

      At 7:17:42 W18 says ” I see the person right now. I see him like walk…walking.” She then goes on giving a description that is close to Selma’s after GZ got up, pacing, putting his hand on his head and walking towards the T.

      At 7:17:48 w18 says “There is a man coming out and people coming out with flashlights”, I think this is when she sees Jon heading towards the T from RVC.

      W19 and Mary Cutcher see Jon at about the same time at 7:18:16 and 7:18:19. Jon must have arrived at the T for them to be able to see him. Jon takes the picture at 17:19:07, at 7:19:28 w18 sees Smith arriving.

      Iirc Jon said he saw GZ 6 to 8 ft south of the T. W18 said GZ was close to the little tree. In her drawing she has him cross the path and walking towards the dogpoop station.

      I think after the first encounter with Jon, GZ may have turned around and walked back towards where the 7 eleven bag is, and squatted there, and Jon probably followed him there.

      Correct me if I’m wrong Willis, but wasn’t the photo Jon took from Trayvon also taken from near the 7 eleven bag?

      • April 18, 2013 at 9:52 PM

        I agree JonW13 noticed GZ before getting to the T and from there they moved south.
        IIRC JeannyW12, Jon’s wife mentioned once that her husband was by their back porch. Of course all that need to be verified.

      • April 19, 2013 at 4:12 PM

        I think the photos of the tactical flashlight and trayvons dying or dead body taken by W13/Jon were both taken with him standing in one spot, but slightly south of the tan bag location.

        Speculation would be about of he walked past GZ curious to see the body or snapped them after Ofc Tim smilths arrival. Unsure of the time stamps on those two shots.

        Presumably before second cop checked pulse

    • April 18, 2013 at 9:54 PM

      Yep, I remember it as Jon saying the key/flashlight was on the ground.

      John seeing two men with lights??? or just two lights? anyway one could have been Jeremy who was closer than John and also went outside after the event.

    • amsterdam1234
      April 18, 2013 at 10:38 PM

      @tchoupi,

      W1 was looking outside within seconds too. Just like Selma and Mary. I went back to listen to interviews. I remember she didn’t make much sense when I first listened to her 10 months ago. It makes perfect sense now.

      19:14 Batchelor: And the body as you’re describing it, that you saw immediately after the gunshot, how was it positioned?
      19:25 W1: Um. It looked like… I’m trying to remember… It looked like it wasn’t straight down. But it was down and it looked like the legs was like this. Sort of like in a running position. But it was like this.
      19:54 Batchelor: Are you describing a face down position or a face up position.
      20:00 W1: Face down.
      20:07 Batchelor: And you only seen, as you are describing, the body.
      20:12 W1: Right.
      20:14 Batchelor: Noone else at that point?
      20:17 W1: Noone.
      20:19 Batchelor: Do you know what the body, or the person, was wearing?
      20:27 W1: I remember a jacket, and sweat pants, and black sneakers.
      20:35 Batchelor: Do you remember colors of the sweat pants or the jacket?
      20:40 W1: Um. I think the sweat pants was gray and the jacket was a reddish color. Wasn’t bright red. But it was in the red family, I guess. Red kinda pinkish, maroonish kind of looking color.
      21:18 Batchelor: And who are you describing the clothing for?
      21:22 W1: It was the body. That’s the only… I didn’t see a second person. The only other person I saw was the cop.

      • April 19, 2013 at 11:44 AM

        I agree with you that W1 can be a valuable witness. I put kind of put her to the side after realizing how poor her sister’s statements are.

        IIRC W1 saw the seconds before the gunshot and then watched through her kitchen window within seconds after the gunshot. That makes a significant difference with MaryW05 & SelmaW16 who where outside within seconds from the gunshot. My impression is that the view was better for everyone outside. It should be a way to evaluate that.

        From the section of the interview you copied, I extract as information that she could not distinguish two individuals. Then when asked about what he was wearing she describes GZ not TM.
        Does it means that GZ was on top of TM right after the gun went off? SeleneW01’s account alone is not sufficient to make that conclusion, but adding JayneW18’s & JeannieW12’s who suggested the same then it becomes a more reasonable conclusion. If you add MaryW05’s & SelmaW16’s statement that they saw GZ straddling TM’s body with both hands pressed on his back/neck (IIRC) then, to me, it tells a story where GZ stood up from being on TM by pushing on his back.
        This is a just a proposal. However, the take away is that seconds after the shooting GZ was on top of TM.

        BTW, the two sisters W01 & W02 are not AA. From their last name, you can tell that they have ancestors from India.

  18. April 18, 2013 at 8:19 PM

    tchoupicaillou :

    I think I remember JonM saying, during one interview, that he noticed the flashlight near the poop station. I believe. If it is confirmed then that flashlight with the key attached to it where on the ground already.

    I wouldn’t call that confirmation. I trust the contemporaneous comments made during the 911 calls more than any witness statements after the fact. John tells the 911 operator that he sees two flashlights. Jon could be confused about when he saw the mini-flashlight on the ground. Or not. But I don’t think John would mistake the light from an iPhone screen or a photo flash for a flashlight. So perhaps the mini-flashlight WAS on the ground when Jon arrived, and GZ’s ‘tactical’ flashlight decided to work for awhile when they went back to look at the body. Or not….

    • April 18, 2013 at 9:39 PM

      I checked JohnW6 911 call again. By that I mean, I listened and read the transcript and checked the time of the call.

      So, here is what I get concerning JohnW6 and the flashlight:
      @7:18:09 JohnW6: “Um No. A guy’s yelling ‘help’. Oh my God!”
      @7:18:14 JohnW6: “Um No. There’s a guy with a flashlight in the backyard now.”
      @7:18:22 JohnW6: “Um I think there is flashlights and there is a guy.”
      @7:18:35 JohnW6: ” There is two guys… There’s one… There is two guys in the backyard with flashlights.”

      It’s not obvious to me that JohnW6 states that there are two flashlights. For sure there are two guys. I’m not sure he knows how many flashlights there are.

      I would admit that the timing is interesting but we should be able to get a consensus on what is going one here.
      7:17:42 JayneW18 sees GZ up and walking
      7:17:48 JayneW18 sees JonW13 coming with a flashlight
      7:18:14 JohnW06 sees one guy with a flashlight
      7:18:22 JohnW06 sees flashlightS but still one guy.
      7:18:35 JohnW06 sees flashlightS but two guys.

      As far as I know, Jayne never mentioned any flashlight when it comes to GZ but was very prompt identifying a flashlight when JonW13 came over.
      AFAIK, SelmaW16, MaryW05 and TeresaW19 all mentioned seeing flashlights. I’m not sure if it was plural or not.

      I tend to think that there is just one flashlight. What about you guys?

      • amsterdam1234
        April 18, 2013 at 10:23 PM

        John should’ve been able to see Jon before Mary and Teresa, so the 7:18:14 would’ve been Jon. At 7:18:34 Jayne said ” Oh my god! He shot, he shot the person. He just said he shot the person.” When John said he sees two guys, Smith is there.

        I think there is just one flashlight.

        • April 19, 2013 at 1:38 AM

          The fact that Jayne could hear them talk suggests that they where standing near her. I think that we should use this kind of information as much as possible

      • amsterdam1234
        April 18, 2013 at 10:28 PM

        Got it wrong, Jayne sees Smith at 7:19:34. But I still think it is one flashlight.

    • April 18, 2013 at 10:12 PM

      Jon said he saw it there. Then they walked back to the scene, he took more pix, GZ got handcuffed etc. If he’d taken that small flashlight back down there with him, Just for John to have a second light to see, HOW did it get BACK to the poop station again?

      K.I.S.S.

      It was there and left there, and what John saw was someone else’s.

      Not much point picking up and trying the “dead” tactical, either. Nothing new for GZ to see. He’d been outside for half an hour, eyes adjusted to the semi-darkness. And knew what had happened. People coming out from well-lit rooms into the darkness would bring lights, to see what’s going on.

      • April 18, 2013 at 10:29 PM

        Actually people might say flashlights plural, the same way as several said gunshotS plural and immediately said, when asked, that it was just one shot. “Gunshots” = gunfire “flashlights” = small light being moved about.

    • April 19, 2013 at 12:21 PM

      I found it. JonW13 had the following interaction during his interview on March 20th:

      ######
      Veaudry: Okay. Did ya… after you went outside with your flashlight and looked around, was there anything laying on the ground that you noticed out of the ordinary?

      W13: No. Along… along with just the kid laying there I saw… I noticed there was one… it looked like one of those tactical flashlights. And then towards the corner on the sidewalk across from where that poop station is, was a… like a little flashlight. I don’t know if it could have been like, it looked like a flashlight to me, anyways. So, it looked like there were just two flashlights on the ground.
      #######

      JonW13 describes the two flashlights on the ground. It makes our life a bit easier as we don’t have to discuss which one he saw.
      It is true that JonW13 did not spontaneously tell about the flashlights. However, the question was about what he noticed on the ground, and not if he noticed flashlights.
      That tells me a few things:
      1) FDLE agents were wondering how the items ended up where they were found.
      2) JonW13 probably saw the flashlights on the crime scene at some point after he went outside. Indeed, on March 20th, date of the interview, there was no information made to the public about items on the ground.
      3) JonW13 either saw it when alone with GZ as he describes it or he confused events before with events after police arrives. We will have to gather more information concerning the little flashlight.

    • April 19, 2013 at 4:33 PM

      There were three confirmed handheld light sources PLUS the two flashlights of George’s – GZs blackberry screen. Jon’s flashlight. Jon’s iPhone that has a screen, a flash and potentially an App that uses the flash as a flashlight or the screen as a dedicated light source.

  19. April 18, 2013 at 9:07 PM

    To all of you using the transcripts. There is a mistake in the one for JohnW6’s 911 call (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tcJFZ83b7wdvuT69Uaq2UQxxVfh6LTsHeKmIiAYgec0/edit).
    The mistake is the start time that is 19:17:15 and not 19:18:00.
    The call at 19:18:00 is from RVC while JohnW6 lives on TTL.
    The 911 log for the call at 19:17:15 matches the street (TTL) and states about the someone one the ground dead. You can also work by elimination (only 3 addresses on TTL) and get to the same conclusion that is JohnW6 called at 19:17:15.

  20. April 19, 2013 at 7:05 AM

    amsterdam1234 :

    JWhen John said he sees two guys, Smith is there.

    No, he’s not. Check the SecCam vid which has various 911 comments all aligned in time.

    • amsterdam1234
      April 19, 2013 at 8:38 AM

      Yes you are right. I was off by a minute.

  21. April 19, 2013 at 10:21 PM

    here’s an old photo illustration I’d like to re-share.

    "567" vs. GZ

    It shows where I think all the evidence was found near the body, and also where GZ claims the shooting took place after he “stumbled” in a mysterious fashion down from the T where he claims he was sucker-punched. It helps me keep things in perspective to see how his bullshit just doesn’t add up. People don’t “stumble” that far and then claim soon after that they were hit and “fell backwards” or were “knocked to the ground” etc.

    I think that in a significant way, Trayvon will “testify” against his killer simply by the fact that his body was found 40 or so feet south of the T. He may have died but he didn’t lie. He was on his way home and GZ was NOT on his way to his vehicle, IMO.

    • April 20, 2013 at 8:56 AM

      Your map shows the mini-flashlight as the outlier, which is why I think we need to be careful about when Jon saw it, and also give thought to John’s statement about two guys with flashlights. The question is ‘when (and how) was the mini-light dropped at the T?’ Of course, if it was dropped at the beginning of the struggle, that helps place the initial confrontation at the T, which I don’t think any of us believe happened, based on other evidence. So what are the other possibilities and their likelihood? (I forget, was this light ON when it was found?)

      I suppose it could have fallen out of GZ’s pocket as he ran down the cut-through sidewalk in his initial foot-pursuit of TM, but I kind of doubt it. It’s also possible GZ planted it there when he walked toward W18’s window after he got up from the body, but that would show an in-credible ability to concoct a detailed cover-up scheme in an extraordinarily short period of time under stress. Besides, if GZ had planted the mini-light, you’d think he would have referred to it in his statements: ‘he hit me and that’s when I dropped my little flashlight’ or something, but he never mentions it.

      Another possibility, and the one that seems the most plausible to me, is that GZ was using it to look over the scene after the shooting, had it in his hand, and as Smith was arriving GZ walked back toward the T from the position where Jon took the photo. When he surrendered, he certainly wouldn’t have wanted the officer to see anything in his hands, so it’s logical he would have dropped it before putting his hands up.

      All of these scenarios are problematic given the information we have. Jon only mentions the mini-light as being on the ground at some indefinite point, and does not mention GZ using it. John may have been using the plural ‘flashlights’ for the singular (as did W18 when she first saw Jon approach). The State has the opportunity we don’t to ask these witnesses to clarify their remarks. ‘John did you see two men each carrying a flashlight, and are you sure they were both flashlights as opposed to say the light from a cellphone screen?’ ‘Jon, did Mr. Zimmerman have anything in his hands at any time you observed him, and if so can you please describe that in detail?’

      My worry is that Bulldog Bernie may be taking a KISS approach that ignores such details, and may not be asking the right questions. The location of the mini-light, in combination with the statements of Ws 6, 11, and 20 is enough to make the Talk Left crowd believe they have irrefutable evidence that the struggle started near the T and then moved to John’s backyard. On the chance a jury member could draw the same conclusion, and lean towards acquittal as a result, it seems to me the State ought not to taking where that little flashlight was found for granted.

      I doubt that’s what’s in GZ’s hand under the black patch, as I don’t see why ABC would feel the need to obscure it, though I suppose if it had been on and pointed in a certain direction, it could have created a distracting hot spot. Seems unlikely though. A more plausible explanation is that they were hiding something that could be considered prejudicial or inflammatory out of context. We know it’s not handcuffs due to the time stamp. Could be the gun, the Skittles, the Arizona, the photo button, but yes that’s all wild speculation. There’s something under there though, and something on the ground was obscured with strokes that bled over into GZ’s sleeve. I hope we see the unedited photo someday.

      I’m also not ready to dismiss racer’s claim that the shadow behind the ear does not jibe with the ear, the part of the sleeve we can see, and the odd tilted ‘7’ lighter area above the patch. However, I can’t see a reason for doing this other than to punch up the dramatic effect of the photo, and help direct the eye toward the blood. (That kind of editing would not be be scandalous for TV news, They’re telling a story, not presenting objective evidence in a court of law. In other words, they probably do that kind of thing a lot, and we just never notice…)

      If the Wagner photo was doctored, as I believe it was, the ‘doctor’ would have had a number of days to work on the operation and make it look good. ABC was working on deadline, and their graphics people may only have had an hour or two to prep Jon’s photo for the story. Thus, the telltale bleed onto the sleeve, and the less than convincing nature of the black patch strike em as testimony to a rush job…

      • April 20, 2013 at 10:43 AM

        The mini keychain flashlight is most definitely the outlier, and it was ON when anyone spotted and and when it was tagged into evidence. I don’t know what happened but I speculate that GZ was using it when he returned to the area by the T and it illuminated Trayvon somehow, given that we know that Jon was able to illuminate GZ from a distance of some 30-45 feet. It could be that GZ saw the teen and immediately dropped the small flashlight in order to go for his handgun.

        One path I always thought was possible was that GZ walked the cut thru to RVC where he ended his call, and then wandered NORTH to see if the teen had also gone north on RVC to make the closest corner and double back towards the clubhouse. I realize everyone has their pet theory about who went where and what w2 saw regarding a N to S foot chase, but there aren’t any theories that explain everything. Some witnesses are just wrong, as in short sleeve shirts and white t-shirts being seen etc.

        In any case it is at least possible (many things are possible) that TM stayed near John/W6’s back yard on the phone as GZ went by, missing him because he, GZ was distracted, the little tree blocked his view, and GZ only looked down the dog walk sidewalk and didn’t look into the grassy area closely enough to see the teen in the dark in his dark hoodie. Then after GZ left the T, headed to RVC Trayvon got curious and went back up near the T to see if the guy who walked past rapidly was gone or returning. Given the timing of GZ walking north, they would have missed one another at that time, and TM naturally may have wandered back towards home, slowly but this time on the sidewalk. GZ returned eventually with a little flashlight in his hands and TM spots him approaching on the cut thru and tells Dee Dee he’s being followed again and the guy is getting closer.

        I honestly think TM may have been afraid to walk south not knowing if he would be cut off by the faster car. He couldn’t know for certain that the man who crossed the cut thru was the same person who followed him in a car. And even if it was the same person, he wouldn’t know if the man turned north or south when he reached RVC. Why go south when he could wait in place and have two or three options of fleeing – south if the man returned on the cut thru and north/ then east or west from the T if he approached from the south? Waitng in the middle makes some sense for TM. It gives him a head start no matter which direction he is approached from, just as a person stealing second base might lead off by a large margin.

        And again, as I keep emphasizing, the only PHYSICAL evidence we have that TM went anywhere at all is the tan bag and the cell phone on the ground, none of which are anywhere near the T. I don’t think Trayvon bothered to run around the far side of the little tree to get out of sight of the car that was stalking him. I think he would have used the footpath visible in the Frank Taaffe news video, the little path that cuts the corner into the dog walk right at the edge of the building.

        And I don’t really want to start up the whole go-round of everyone speculating and repeating ad nauseum where they went in the missing minutes. Many things are possible and I see the merits of whonoze’s ideas and of Amsterdam and think they are very possible too, as well as many many more paths the two may have taken. It’s unimportant to know anything definite to come to the firm conclusion that GZ lied about what he was doing there in the first place, so whatever he claims – EVEN IF IT IS TRUE is immaterial to a self-defense claim. And I don’t think he’s telling the truth by a long shot, the location of the body all but completely rules out his scenario at face value.

        I just wanted to throw out the idea that ONE way the mini-keychain light could have arrived at the T would be if it were used by GZ to spotlight the teen with GZ near the T and TM near the tan bag location. Then, having spotted the teen, GZ readies his firearm and the fast-walk “baseball hotbox” foot chase begins where they both walk south until TM turns to stand his ground, possibly south of W2’s unit, even. GZ closed a gap somewhere, and I think he may have made a grab for the teen but had to run him down over a few yards in a failed “quarterback sneak” by the teen to blow past GZ back to the north. Then they tumble to the ground with TM’s head to the north and his feet to the south, wrestling. (this is the orientation the body was first seen having in JonW13’s picture, and that makes me think they were moving from south to north, back towards the T when they went to ground. GZ may have hit his head as they fell, striking his nose to the ground because his hands were occupied holding onto the teen in a tackle. So many things are possible. They may have slipped on wet grass. TM may have indeed landed a strong punch to the nose of GZ, but if he did it seems most likely it happened near John’s patio since GZ ALWAYS said the blow put him onto the ground/grass right away. The 40 foot “stumble” that GZ pantomimes as a less then 20 foot stumble when GZ tries to suddenly shoehorn it into his account when finally taken to the scene is simply not credible.

        Another good way to get a knock in one’s nose is to have your opponent head butt you as their only option of resistance given that you have them in a standing bear hug. GZ’s inability to account for what he did with his hands, save fire his gun strikes me as a glaring and obvious omission. His hands were somewhere, doing something but the way he tells it they were limp at his sides or not doing anything at all. Such bullshit. He knows that it’s illegal for him to have tried to detain the teen, so he leaves it out.

        Having said all that, I think it COULD be possible that GZ was using the light post-shooting and dropped it as he surrendered but I have doubts because of the way Jon describes seeing it. Also, i think GZ busied himself with his cell phone predominantly post-frisking and only had a short time to do so.

        The one plausible thing I can imagine GZ wanting to call someone about quickly is indeed to ask them to move his truck because there was an open beer in it. I have no evidence to support this other than this is what knuckleheads do, drive around in trucks w guns, beer and hatred because they are LOSERS. (I don’t think I’m speculating much about the loser part. ) We won’t know for certain about this ever, I fear however. But imagine a scenario – you “screw the pooch” and kill an unarmed kid while drunk, with an open beer and the remnants of the twelve pack still in your car sitting in a ice chest all cooled down with a layer of empties on the floorboard. You can’t undo the shooting but you have a chance at least to remove the drugs or alcohol from the equation if you act fast. “Come move my truck, l’ll leave my key by this tree, you’ll find it. Get here fast the cops will be here any second.”

        Did Jon use GZ’s cell phone to call Shellie or was he given his the number by GZ? We should know eventually given GZ’s phone records and further questioning of JonW13.

        I also think GZ is stupid enough to have erased some text messages that might have been recovered. I think as others have said that the prosecution has some very juicy and incriminating bits of evidence to present that we don’t yet know about. GPS could be one but there are so many possibilities.

        Many things are possible. GZ leaves out from his many accounts his making or attempting to make a phone call himself, and yet his truck was moved by a confederate. What GZ claims happened is not possible.

        When in doubt George leaves it out. What George did he blames on the kid.

        And lastly, justice is coming.

        • unitron
          April 25, 2013 at 7:34 AM

          “The one plausible thing I can imagine GZ wanting to call someone about quickly is indeed to ask them to move his truck because there was an open beer in it.”

          He must not have gotten beyond opening the first one, then, if Smith didn’t smell any beer* on his breath while taking his gun, cuffing him, and frisking him, not camera guy, nor the EMTs.

          *nor, apparently, marijuana smoke either, despite the way Zimmerman sounded on the NEN recording.

          I wonder if Officer B shone his flashlight into any of the vehicles he was running plates on.

          Seems like he would, since they were looking for clues to the victims identity.

      • April 20, 2013 at 11:46 AM

        As Willi wrote there are reports of the mini flashlight being on while on the grass.

        Whonoze wrote: “if it was dropped at the beginning of the struggle, that helps place the initial confrontation at the T, which I don’t think any of us believe happened, based on other evidence.”

        Could you remind me why it is impossible that the confrontation started near the T.
        JeremyW20 clearly says the argument was coming from the T. Actually, He had an interesting description of it as turning a corner, but because we don’t have a drawing on a map of what he meant I can’t tell what corner he talked about.
        JenniferW11 is a bit clearer as she states that the argument started on the sideway by their house and it turned the corner and this is then it it turned into a scuffle.
        I have to mention that JenniferW11 & JeremyW20 live in the corner house and that house has a different floorplan with a [kitchen?] window opening on the north branch of the T.
        Their is commonality between Jennifer & Jeremy but, they live in the same townhouse. So, one can argue that they influenced each other. This is why JayneW18 is important as she also heard the argument prior to the cries for help but she makes no comment about where it came from relative to her place.
        It makes statement commonalities from two houses which is a loud argument started near the T and probably west from the T. Considering that JayneW18 made her statement in her 911 call already, it is very likely that what she says is right.
        Now comes the lower levels of commonality when it comes to the early loud argument. JohnW06 explains how living in those townhouses makes you an expert in sound location. He makes that nice statement that someone yelling from 2 or 3 house away will be heard fainted. You will notice that no witness from 3 houses south from the T heard the early loud argument.
        You will also notice that JohnW06 & AmandaW17 who live together right south of JenniferW11 & JeremyW20 did not really heard the argument but heard cries coming toward them. AFAIK, they could not tell the direction.
        Finally, we need to understand what JeannieW12 & JonW13 really heard. IIRC, they did not hear the early loud argument but I believe one of them made a statement about the yells having moved south from about their townhouse to the next.

        To sum that up, it seems to me that witness’ statements put together indicate that the argument, DD also stated, started near the T and possibly on the west branch of the T.

      • unitron
        April 25, 2013 at 6:43 AM

        “If the Wagner photo was doctored, as I believe it was, the ‘doctor’ would have had a number of days to work on the operation and make it look good.”

        But instead of good they decided to go for ‘ridiculous’?

        With friends like that, Zimmerman doesn’t need enemies.

  22. April 20, 2013 at 12:22 PM

    whonoze :
    My worry is that Bulldog Bernie may be taking a KISS approach that ignores such details, and may not be asking the right questions. The location of the mini-light, in combination with the statements of Ws 6, 11, and 20 is enough to make the Talk Left crowd believe they have irrefutable evidence that the struggle started near the T and then moved to John’s backyard. On the chance a jury member could draw the same conclusion, and lean towards acquittal as a result, it seems to me the State ought not to taking where that little flashlight was found for granted.

    What is the KISS approach?

    The fact that the loud argument starts about where GZ states it did can be seen as GZ telling the truth to some. However, there are so many obvious lies in GZ’s statements that it is obvious that anything he says has to be taken carefully. I guess what I mean is that putting some element of reality in a fiction doesn’t make a true story.

    It is hard to understand how the two persons end up so close to the T given the time gap. We can more or less place them on a map (on TTL) but that’s nearly 5 minutes before the gunshot or ~4 minutes before the argument. During that time, TM had time to get home and GZ had too BTW. We know GZ went after TM but his whereabouts are not really known. In any case, even assuming that he ended his NEN call where he claim he did, he still had 2 minutes to get to his car and even take off if he did not feel safe. The obvious answer is that neither men went straight to safety.
    GZ fans would claim that it is evidence that TM went after GZ to confront him. It is possible but it is also possible that he opted not to go straight home. I myself have been stalked at night by a man in a car when I was 18. I chose not to go home straight and preferred trying to lose the person using cuthroughs. It worked for me. It might be that TM was just not as lucky.
    What I mean here is that I can see at least another explanation as of why TM would not be home by 7:16pm. I really don’t see why GZ would not be in his truck waiting for police near the clubhouse by that same time. I really see no other possibility but GZ looking for TM the whole time.

    So, to go back to the original question about where the argument started. If the most obvious conclusion is that it is near the T, then so be it. I really don’t mind much if it matches part of GZ’s narrative because this is not where the case can be judge.

    To me this is where the case is clear cut against GZ:
    1) You cannot tell sure that TM, for whatever reason, chose to double back and confront GZ,
    2) You can tell that GZ was after TM during the whole time, and
    3) GZ is lied even on the obvious.

    • April 20, 2013 at 1:27 PM

      K.I.S.S. = Keep It Simple, Stupid.

      • April 20, 2013 at 1:35 PM

        There is less love in the acronym than in the word. Thanks

      • April 20, 2013 at 2:03 PM

        By which we are saying perhaps BDLR will not introduce GZs statements to SPD at all possibly and thereby force the defense to put GZ on the stand to claim self defense. The legal arguement is that anything less than an affirmative defense would be hearsay. MOM can’t say “this was self defense” only George himself can. George can prevail at trial if a jury feels the state failed to prove a crime. This is not a dismissal on self defense, but an acquittal by virtue of the state not proving beyond a reasonable doubt that a crime happened.

        I’m not a lawyer however so take what I’m saying here with a grain of salt.

        But the simple approach for the state is to say GZ profiled and pursued the teen by using ONLY the NEN recording to show to a jury he left his car somewhere, anywhere, and followed the running teen. Then they bring in Ofc smith to testify GZ admitted shooting the kid and rest their case. This leaves the defense with no choice but to put George on the stand under oath where he is vulnerable to cross examination since he’s locked into a contradictory account fraught with lies. To refute GZs affirmative defense the state can THEN call Sanrina, Dee Dee, forensics experts etc as rebuttal witnesses against anything GZ claims. But as a defense without GZ taking the stand MOM can only refute and rebut what the prosecution enters as evidence of a crime. He’s got a better chance of introducing “reasonable doubt” into a complex case presentation than a simple one.

        • April 20, 2013 at 3:05 PM

          I think I understand what you’re saying Willi. I also think one of my points did not went through so, I’ll try again…

          Of course the NEN call shows GZ going after but it is hardly the only evidence. We also have;
          1) The flashlight he took with him in spite of having one already attached to his car keys,
          2) The time gap after his NEN call ended.

          Point #2 is the one I was referring to in my earlier post that shows that GZ was after TM the entire time. I see no other explanation for him to be at the T 2 minutes after his NEN call ended.

          Two minutes is enough time to walk 500ft to 600ft. A 500ft radius centered on the T brings cover a huge chunk of the RATL including the mailbox, GZ’s truck, TM’s place, the east entrance, the T itself and many other possibilities that leaves everyone scratching his head on how on hearth they ended up at the T. But it doesn’t matter because in the end it shows that GZ NEVER GAVE UP looking for TM.
          Therefore, it is impossible, in my sense, for GZ to claim self defense. You’re not in self defense if you look for troubles and end up in trouble.

          GZ’s narrative attempts to say that 1) He (GZ) never went after TM but rather just tried helping dispatcher Sean, and 2) he was retreating to his vehicle when the scary guy violently attacked him. The NEN call and the time gap demolish those claims.

        • unitron
          April 25, 2013 at 7:42 AM

          ” Then they bring in Ofc smith to testify GZ admitted shooting the kid…”

          Which lets the defense ask Smith everything else that Zimmerman said, like the “I did it because I thought he was about to kill me” part, which puts it back on the prosecution to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it was not self defense but intentional murder.

    • amsterdam1234
      April 21, 2013 at 11:00 AM

      The reason I started looking at paths where Trayvon didn’t run south, was because I think there is evidence the confrontation began near the T. DeeDee’ statements don’t support a resting period, and according to her Trayvon noticed GZ was following him again and was gaining on Trayvon. Maybe more details from DD at the trial will show that Willis or Whonoze were right. For now I don’t see it. That doesn’t mean my theory is right, it’s just the only theory I could think of that was not contradicted by known evidence.

      I was also followed by a guy when I was about that age. I did exactly what you did. What occupied my mind was that I didn’t want someone who was displaying this creepy interest in me, find out where I lived. That is why I can understand why Trayvon may have gone in the opposite direction. I think Trayvon was near the beginning of the cut-through when he started to run. He told DD that he was going to try to lose GZ, so he had a strategy in mind.
      I think GZ was very close behind him. It would make sense to start running at that point where a car can no longer follow you, to get some distance between him and GZ.

      I put this video together for timing purposes. I used video from Marinade Dave. Dave walked and drove through the complex. Part of his walk was from the Mail area to the cut-through. I added this part of the video at the moment GZ said “now he is coming towards me”. I think Trayvon was taller than Dave and younger, so he probably was a bit further than Dave when GZ said ” he is running”.

      • April 21, 2013 at 12:34 PM

        I’ve always thought this video was VERY good at explaining the “car-to-pedestrian” chase timings. Clearly we can’t know exactly where GZ parked facing the mail kiosk, or how fast or slow or STEADY TM’s walking pace was or what manner GZ used to move away from the mail kiosk but the timing is established and the contemporaneous statements are clear – the teen left somewhere “near the clubhouse” and passed GZ’s vehicle at a rate of speed that was NOT running, and so they must have been both up near the clubhouse.

        Then when the teen is observed running GZ thinks it best to exit the vehicle and follow on foot, NOT to drive the vehicle somewhere closer, or ahead, or whatever. His IMMEDIATE decision is to exit the car. This alone suggests he has reached the vicinity of the second curve.

        Examining the possibilities shows us that the teen couldn’t have passed the car were it already down by the second bend in TTL. GZ himself wanted SPD to know that he moved his car during the course of the call.

        It all adds up… to a car-to-pedestrain chase and then a pack of lies, omissions, obfuscations and inconsistent statements to deliberately exclude the truth of what George did and what it caused the teen to do – run away to leave the roadway where the creepy stalking car was following him.

        Then of course we have the map GZ marked… he marked it right and then scratched it out to tell some obvious lies…

        I don’t know and I don’t CARE where “they went thataway” theories take us past the point where we have such clear proof that GZ was stalking the kid. It just doesn’t matter.

        One lied, the other died. One ran away, the other acted quickly to close the gap.

        Once Trayvon was into that darkness of the cut thru, IMO he had every right under the laws of the state of Florida to defend himself by any means at his disposal against an armed, angry aggressor who was in the process of an illegal, harassing pursuit.

  23. April 20, 2013 at 2:12 PM

    tchoupicaillou :

    Could you remind me why it is impossible that the confrontation started near the T.

    Not impossible, just not likely. GZ tells Sean, when he has no reason to lie, that Trayvon is running South toward the back gate. It is improbable that GZ would head North to look for him. It is improbable that Trayvon would only run a few yards, remaining in the vicinity of the T, where there is no good cover to hide without easily being cornered. Too much time passes between GZ losing TM on the NEN call and any probable start-time of the confrontation for both of them to just have been hanging around at the T. In a quiet residential neighborhood, TM would have heard GZ’s truck door open and close, and would likely have assumed he was being pursued on foot. DeeDee condenses time spans at numerous points, but her description of GZ’s foot pursuit immediately prior to the confrontation indicates it took place over a certain time and distance, ‘the man was following him again, Trayvon said he won’t run, the man started getting close, Trayvon still didn’t run, the man got even closer…” (I paraphrase). I can only see this type of pursuit happening in a South to North direction.

    Moreover, if the confrontation had started near the T, as Zimmerman claims, it seems to me he would have been able to come with a reasonable explanation of how the two men got into John’s backyard from there, and he cannot do so.

    Unless DeeDee is just making stuff up, it would seem indisputable that GZ after regained visual contact with TM he pursued him for a number of moments before catching up to him, and they wound up wrestling in John’s back yard. The most likely space for this to occur would be coming up the dogwalk. It’s also possible that GZ was walking South on RVC, and Trayvon, not knowing where GZ was, cut through from the dog walk over to RVC to head for the front door of the Green apartment. Thus it’s possible GZ could have pursued TM S-N up RVC and around the corner, heading back toward the T and then the struggle went back down the dogwalk. But that just seems like a stretch to me.

    As stupid and aggressive as GZ is, I can’t imagine him walking around with a drawn gun, nor can I imagine him dropping his only working flashlight and not picking it up if he was going to walk around with a drawn gun. I also can’t imagine Trayvon would have failed to see a drawn gun, and had he done so, his response would not have been to ask “What you following me for?” but to run like hell.

    I do not consider W11 and W20 to be reliable witnesses. They claim they were inside the whole time, yet W11 is yelling at W20, “Jeremy get in here.” The word “in” strongly implying he was “out” at the time. Jeremy claims to have been in the kitchen (which is in the front of the home) fetching a knife at this time, which seems like BS. In addition the recording of the screams on W11’s call has a tonal quality that suggests line-of-sight path of sound waves, not traveling around corners into an interior. Finally, they have a motive to conceal things they may they know if it implicates GZ, because W11 is an officer of the HOA.

    If the confrontation started at the T, and moved South to come to a conclusion in John’s backyard, why is all the rest of evidence besides the mini-light somewhat South of the body?

    Finally, if GZ dropped the mini-light near the T at the beginning of the confrontation, and it was left on, why wouldn’t he have picked it back up when he walked to the T after getting up from the body and heading toward W18’s window? I doubt he would have been such a good citizen as to avoid disturbing evidence…

    It is beyond me how anyone can look at the passage of time during this event and conclude, as Zimmerman claims, that it all took place in the vicinity of the T. They simply HAD to have been moving afield from that point in order to wind up BACK there after that amount of time…

    Jon’s statements are sketchy on a lot of details, including as we have noted exactly when GZ was using or trying to use his phone. It does not make sense to me to place so much import on his observation of the mini-light, especially when his statement, as quoted above, mentions the tactical flashlight first, which we know was by the body.

    • April 20, 2013 at 3:43 PM

      Whonoze,

      what I read in your post about is the frustration we all have with this story.
      Maybe because I stopped working on the case for a while I finally got in peace with that conclusion. That said you really have to understand that I too am trying to put in place all the pieces of the puzzle. However, without more pieces to it, we cannot complete it.
      Does it matter? Of course knowing more would help. So, it matters.
      But having more pieces to the puzzle is not necessary as the real question is whether GZ took actions with no regard to people’s life including his own.

      Having the loud argument starting at the T is not particularly violating the S-N chase theory you make. Indeed, it could be that GZ caught TM up by the T.
      The same way, the loud argument starting at the T can be compatible with Amsterdam’s theory that TM in fact turned north rather than south maybe after reaching RVC. We can even imagine that GZ, believing that TM went south, walked down that path leaving TM behind. Then follows the S-N chase you’re talking about.
      You can also imagine any combination of walk, run, chase and turns you want and be compatible with GZ chasing TM and ending up with an argument at the T.
      You can even stretch your imagination to stating that TM and GZ accidently bumped in eachother at the T.
      The thing is that whatever path you believe they took, it had to be compatible with evidences we have (timing included) and witness statements.

    • April 20, 2013 at 4:48 PM

      And I forgot to mention that DeeDee places Trayvon’s phone dropping to the ground at the beginning of the confrontation.

      I know WE don’t have information that answers these questions more reliably. I’m merely arguing for the relevance of some of the details, if they can be established in court by the LE folks who have more resources than we do. Re: the mini-flashlight — if the prosecution can establish via witness testimony or photographic evidence that GZ had the mini-flashlight in his possession after the shooting, that would be a valuable rebuttal to any story the defense may introduce about Trayvon attacking GZ at the T. I’m not saying they would necessarily present this during their case in chief, but this is the kind of thing they ought to be looking into instead of resting on what they have.

      The problem with a KISS approach of ““GZ followed the teen, admitted as much on the NEN tape, and clearly soon found the teen and admits he shot the teen. The defense rests.” Is the lack of material evidence beyond DeeDee’s statement that GZ found Trayvon and not vice-versa. As I stated in the first substantive post on this blog, the problem for Team T is that anyone can look at a map and a clock and ask themselves, “How did they get back THERE, so close to the truck?” or “Why didn’t Trayvon just go home in the ‘missing minutes’?” I would, if I was on the jury and the prosecution offered no attempt to explain things any deeper. A juror might conclude that despite GZ’s multiple falsehoods revealed by the same map and clock, the State has not met it’s burden to prove BRD that Trayvon did not ‘double-back’ and attack Zimmerman. This would muddy the waters enough that even a convincing demonstration that GZ did NOT suffer life-threatening injuries, and was not underneath Trayvon when he was bleeding from the back of his head might not be enough to sway a jury.

      A smart prosecutor would not put all his eggs in the basket of a single strategy. He would be prepared to present more evidence than he may think he needs. Casey Anthony’s prosecutor basically let his case come down to “There should never be duct tape over the mouth of a child!” Yet, he had no cause of death, no forensics to tie the duct tape to Casey, and couldn’t even establish whether the tape was applied while Caylee was alive or at some point post mortem. Bye bye case.

      • April 20, 2013 at 5:23 PM

        In order for a jury to consider a “TM doubled back” scenario, it has to be introduced at trial somehow. With a KISS prosecution strategy GZ is almost certainly forced to SAY the teen moved on him in an aggressive manner. To do that he has to take the stand, and then EVERY manner of prosecution theory can THEN be introduced as rebuttal to GZ, not as proof of the crime. The crime is that his bullet was found in an unarmed teen’s body where bullets don’t belong. Not “they went thataway.” “They went thataway” would have to be part of a self defense affirmative defense, where the burden is on the defense.

        It’s possible the defense counsel could fight a KISS strategy by SUGGESTING that the teen MAY have doubled back as a means to introduce some reasonable doubt, but I’m not sure how much traction they would get with that. This suggestion would have no testimony or expert to present it, and so would have to come in opening statement and closing statement by the defense counsel. Statements made without evidence or testimony introduced are allowable but hardly seen as compelling IMO. Also of course any idea that TM doubled back means more scrutiny on the time clock anyway which hardly favors the defense’s inconsistent and contradictory statements to SPD. So if the defense brings up the idea that TM had time to go home, that opens the door for the prosecution on rebuttal to that idea to drag out the statements to SPD that show GZ had time to return to his vehicle and DRIVE home.

        I’m not suggesting that BDLR employ a KISS strategy, but he needs to consider that it’s a possibility to use as a means to force GZ to the stand where he will go down in flames like a lead zeppelin. If BDLR instead presents a “everything but the kitchen sink” case, by virtue of the amount of things to rebut, MOM may create the (false) impression that the state has a case it hasn’t proven by virtue of all the reasonable doubt that can be introduced. If MOM rebuts three things he’ll stand on the fences and crow about them all morning when it comes time to present a summary and that will be the last thing a jury hears, no matter which three things. I’m saying, don’t give him three things. Give him GZ’s OWN words (NEN recording only as the case is resented) and a bullet from an autopsy, and watch him try to refute that. And on the prosecution summation, hammer home to the jury how simple the case is and to keep in mind that unless and until the defense can refute the defendants OWN words somehow and prove that ain’t his bullet there in that baggie on the evidence table, then everything else is a sideshow that the prosecution is prepared to show doesn’t even favor the defense anyway.

        Keep in mind i am not a lawyer however.

        • April 20, 2013 at 8:14 PM

          IANAL as well, but it seems to me MOM can introduce the idea that TM doubled back and attacked GZ in his opening statement, and then question various prosecution witnesses about whether they can rule out that possibility, which I would presume they could not.

        • amsterdam1234
          April 20, 2013 at 11:45 PM

          Information given in the opening or closing statement are not evidence and the jury gets instructions about that.
          I’ve been watching some of the Jodi Arias trial, who claims self defense. The prosecution can introduce parts of GZ statements. There is some rule about completeness, but what I’ve seen in that trial I see no problem for the prosecution to introduce only those statements that can be refuted by forensic evidence or witness statements.

          I think unless the prosecution has solid evidence about the path they took during the missing minutes( gps) the prosecution is going to leave out GZ’s explanation about him looking for the street sign and TM’s doubling back. Prosecution will just use DD’s statement and GZ’s nen call to show Trayvon was trying to get away from GZ.

          The prosecution is also going to leave out the part how GZ explained he got on top of Trayvon after the shooting. Just w1, w5, w12, w16, w18 statements that GZ was on top before or seconds after the shooting. I think GZ will have to get on the stand, but if he does he’ll be shredded to pieces by BDLR.

  24. April 20, 2013 at 4:00 PM

    I hate to get into an argument that has no real point, whonoze but I disagree.

    when you say:
    “GZ tells Sean, when he has no reason to lie, that Trayvon is running South toward the back gate. It is improbable that GZ would head North to look for him. It is improbable that Trayvon would only run a few yards, remaining in the vicinity of the T, where there is no good cover to hide without easily being cornered. ”

    This makes me consider the fact that GZ said later he couldn’t tell if the teen turned south or not. In my mind GZ made a big assumption when he saw TM run. I also think TM ran from nearer TTL than you do, however. You place the teen near the T when he starts running and I think he was near the start of the cut thru sidewalk. I see his “towards the back entrance” comment as one of another of his automobile-centric and befuddled comments. He knew TM was just moments ago “near the clubhouse” (obviously most likely in the mail kiosk) and so wasn’t likely to be running so as to get to RVC and double back by going north and then back the way he came on RVC. So he made an ASSUMPTION that the teen, whom he felt did not belong there, was running for the east entrance and therefor heading south, as GZ himself would if he followed TTL thru the second bend. Think of the RATL as a pinball machine or plumbing – if you start at the top and head onto TTL you come out at the “back” eventually.

    So with that assumption in his head GZ fast walks/jogs to the T and peers down the SIDEWALK. Someone who wanted to go to the “back” as he assumed was happening would be beating their feet down the sidewalk and either visible or easy to hear, and GZ clearly didn’t hear or see the teen at that point. Instead, he says to Sean, “he ran” meaning he’s GONE. At this point GZ has to assume TM continued to RVC and so he does too. Why else did he go to RVC (if indeed he went there)? When he gets there he no doubt looked up and down for the teen. Again, were the teen still running for the back gate he’s be visible going down south on RVC. But he isn’t, IMO and wasn’t. He’s right where he ran to until his phone rang – standing in W6John’s back yard. But GZ has to wonder what happened. If the teen didnt run south on the dog walk, and he didnt run south on RVC, what option is left to explain how he’s so far gone? Well, he must have turned left and headed UP RVC and made the closest corner somehow.

    GZ didnt see him in John;s yard because he didn’t LOOK, and the tree blocked his view, and TM was dressed partly in black and it was quite dark. TM was standing still having answered his call back from DD. GZ was looking on the sidewalk and also still somewhat towards RVC. He missed the kid in who was “hiding” in plain sight. This is partly why TM wasn’t 100% sure he was being followed at all. Someone went by but possibly saw him and continued on. He probably saw GZ well enough and wondered why GZ didnt see him.

    And I don’t think TM heard GZ exit the vehicle, or knew if the car stopped fully or continued on down south of him on TTL. That’s why he stayed put.

    But VERY IMPORTANT – neither of our pet theories makes a damn bit of difference. Someone closed a gap, and that someone seems to have been GZ if Dee Dee is to be believed. Like you say, GZ’s story about being struck at the T is inconsistent, self serving simply hard to fit into the timing. But if it did happen there by some odd explanation, it didn’t happen by TM springing out of “the bushes” and sucker punching him using cheap dialog from an 80s action movie.

    As for what the residents heard, I think anyone can discern volume and tell when someone is getting closer, but standing in an apartment and hearing which way they are moving is much harder. We put a mental picture in our heads of which way when we hear noises like that but it’s just a guess. Imagine standing in a long T shaped hallway at the base of the T, and trying to guess which way noises approached the intersection from the blind top bar. To me that’s how the residents heard the argument moving, our the end of a stovepipe of their shotgun units.

    Also, I don’t think that post-shooitng GZ moved all the way north up to the T necessarily. I’d say the jury is out on that one. Yes he want that WAY but we don’t know how far. Photos tell us he went as far north as the tan bag. Maybe that’s as far as he ever went, I don’t know. Jon went farther SOUTH of the tan bag to shoot his pics of the body and tactical flashlight. Weren’t they talking more or less the whole time until ofc Smith arrived? Again we don’t know. But for people to conflate Jon’s ONE flashlight and some cell phones as TWO flashlights or “flashlights” I think they were closer together than GZ up at the T, dropping his keychain flashlight and Jon way down by the body taking snapshots.

    Keep in mind the units residents lived in have “blinders” on them somewhat if you are looking out the patio window. If John has stayed downstairs, for instance and stood at his patio window I’m not sure he could see as far north as the T itself by virtue of not having a clear view. This affects what people could see if they didn’t go outside.

    I admit I want to rely on objects, the body and photos rather than witnesses. I see the former as “more solid” and the latter as fallible. For those reasons I want to group the people where the objects were found as much as possible. It’s my admitted bias.

    I apologize for getting sucked into this endless speculation. The real point is about what strategy the prosecution can employ at trial to gain a conviction. We’ve both agreed they may not present ANY scenario other than “GZ followed the teen, admitted as much on the NEN tape, and clearly soon found the teen and admits he shot the teen. The defense rests.” Why try to prove anything else? Instead, make the defense prove self-defense and carry the burden of presenting a story that’s going to be flawed and inconsistent no matter what, and attacking and hammering on THESE flaws, not the flaws in any “he went that a way” scenarios the prosecution wanted to present.

    “He went that away” scenarios are for us idle speculators, NOT for BDLR.

    • April 20, 2013 at 4:47 PM

      Willi: “As for what the residents heard, I think anyone can discern volume and tell when someone is getting closer, but standing in an apartment and hearing which way they are moving is much harder. We put a mental picture in our heads of which way when we hear noises like that but it’s just a guess. Imagine standing in a long T shaped hallway at the base of the T, and trying to guess which way noises approached the intersection from the blind top bar. To me that’s how the residents heard the argument moving, our the end of a stovepipe of their shotgun units.”
      #########
      Except is multiple witnesses make common statements.
      Moreover, JohnW06 statement about not hearing much of a cry down 2-3 houses is kind of eye opening to me. You can put on a map what was heard from where and you’ll immediately see that JohnW06 is perfectly right.
      The witnesses who stated hearing loud arguments then the cries for help from inside their home are by the T.
      The ones hearing some noises prior to the cries for help from inside their home are 2-3 houses down from the
      T. The ones hearing only the cries for help from inside their home are 3-4 houses down the T.
      The ones hearing only the cries for help from only after going outside are 4-6 houses down the T.
      One possible exception though: the house by the T of JonW13 & JeannieW12. They did not hear the argument prior to the cries for help. They seem to have heard noises though prior to the cries and IIRC they even indicate the noise moving south. I need to confirm that point. Anyhow, it might be many reasons why they could not hear as clearly as JeremyW20, JenniferW11 & JayneW18: (TV was loud, …)

      The general feeling is clearly that the loud argument happened near the T.

      • April 20, 2013 at 5:02 PM

        More important than the location in some regards is the length and character of the exchange. GZ claims it was one way, and the residents seem to say it was maybe quite a bit more and longer in duration. Dee Dee heard only part before the call ended.

        I wish someone would ask them to recreate it in their own voices in “real time’ as they recalled it. Some are claiming an eight minute gap!

        What’s telling of course is that GZ claims such a fast and quiet startup.

        As for speculations, I can imagine the “what are you following me for?’ coming from near the tan bag and the “what are you doing here?” coming from where the keychain flashlight was found, while GZ shined a light into the teen’s eyes. This exchange may have been repeated, followed by GZ deliberately dropping the keys and charging the teen.

        Then a gap is closed, perhaps even mutually. If GZ was closing in fast TM with malice in his voice may have decided his best bet was to defend himself, as was his legal right after being stalked.

    • April 20, 2013 at 5:16 PM

      GZ told Sean TM was running “DOWN towards the back entrance.” ‘Down’ is the standard indicator for ‘South’ to the Mercatur oriented. It’s quite a stretch to say GZ would have assumed TM was heading for the back gate while TM was still going East on the dog walk. Of COURSE he said he didn’t know which way TM ran later. He’s LYING then.

      You, willis, are the originator of the ‘long tail’ which is based on the considerable number of seconds that pass between the moment TM seems to pass GZ’s truck (GZ stops giving observations and all but pees his pants), and the moment GZ says, “Shit, he’s running!” Time it out. With GZ’s truck assumed to be where we observe ‘it’ in the security vid, and any reasonable walking pace for Trayvon, he’s off TTL and onto the cut-through sidewalk before GZ says “He running.” Of course, it would be nice if SOMEONE had asked DeeDee what the heck she meant by “from the back”, but we can’t expect these people to ask obvious questions (like, ‘when you say “a couple minutes later” do you literally mean a couple minutes, and however long that was, what happened during that time?’) It’s hardly provable that GZ ‘ran Trayvon off the road’. He would have been going that direction anyway. According to DeeDee, even Trayvon used the word ‘following’ to describe GZ’s pursuit, not ‘chase’ or anything of the sort.

      Williis, I do credit your hypothesis that GZ may have had an open container in the truck. His speech is clearly slurred during the NEN call in a way that I have not heard GZ speak in any subsequent recordings. I am sick of the fools who know nothing about pharmacology and would attribute this to GZ’s psych meds. I take Adderal for adult-onset ADD, and I also take a benzo as a sleep aid (GZ had temazepam, I use clonazepam). Believe me, neither of these meds do anything to slur your speech, delay your reactions, make you forget your street numbering system has four digits instead of three, lower your inhibitions, or increase your potential for violent behavior — all of which ARE effects of imbibing good ol’ alcohol. A six pack in the front seat would be reason enough for GZ to want the truck moved, and doesn’t point to any wacky improbable conspiracy. That would also help explain why GZ cancels the meeting at his truck when he realizes the cop might get there before he gets back — whoops forgot about those cans of Coors. (I doubt George, high class guy that he considered himself, would have been nursing a 40…)

      • April 20, 2013 at 6:55 PM

        We should slow down here and figure out what we have achieved a consensus about before we wear out our keyboards disagreeing about what’s probably not knowable anyways. You make a lot of sense. I make different sense, and Tchoupi makes great points as usual. What do we all agree on? That would be what has weight, I’d say.

        I agree that Adderall hardy makes you slur words. In fact it made me feel like I knew EXACTLY what every word should be spoken like, lol. Kinda hyper-aware and very focused the ONE time I took it during a marathon cross-country road trip. But I know other close friends who are prescribed it for the same adult onset ADD, and they don’t slur words either. Until they have a few drinks, of course. Any fool can hear he’s buzzed on that call. No one can prove it however so it’s probably a moot point.

        We just disagree about the exact details of the move from mail kiosk to cut thru sidewalk, whonoze and we probably always will. I see enough “slop” in the theory to see it either way depending on where GZ parked and how long it takes him to exhale and call the kid an axxhole. But the theory holds either way – GZ couldn’t have been already down by the cut thru when TM walked past if he was ANYWHERE “near the clubhouse now.”

        And I agree it’s difficult to characterize the car to pedestrian pursuit or whatever we should call it. One thing it ain’t however is what GZ claims happened.

        Also I think the map GZ marked is a better way to decide where he was parked than the pool video until tests are conducted that establish what’s seen from that view on a rainy night. The car approaches the kiosk but how close? Are the lights going off proof of where it stopped? Hardly. All we know is that it didn’t make the corner fully.

        I wish to heck we had a color scan of the real map GZ marked. I see that as a keystone piece of evidence, and that’s probably why the prosecution buried it in a pile and obscured it’s importance by reproducing it so poorly.

        As for the “down” in “down towards the back,” who can say? I’d hate to be put in the position of defending GZ’s veracity. But in the timing I imagine, GZ is so excited he doesn’t see or can’t register the turn TM makes as the teen blends in with the darkness of the hedges at the corner. GZ’s busy stopping the car and gathering his flashlight and there’s a good chance that even if he possessed the proper visibility that he simply missed the exact moment TM made the turn. If the boy was on the grass path it was a split second thing. He’s not rounding second base on a triple, (at the T) he’s feinting in the basketball lane for a quick drive layup in my mind and dropping out of sight like a marble in one of those tilting maze games.

        I don’t see any reason that TM would run if he managed to walk to the T unimpeded. What intimidated him at that point? Why not just walk south?

        Whereas I can see being intimidated by a (lights off) u Turn or a car reversing itself to creep behind me while still on the E-W part of TTL and running as soon as the opportunity arose for running to accomplish something. Don’t forget the white ford pickup that is “always parked there” may have offered TM some sort of HOPE for cover if he walked behind it before running. it doesn’t actually block the view but it’s cover to a scared teen. Note how GZ’s father or whomever is loitering there by that pickup in the “walk thru” video is obscured somewhat as GZ arrives with the investigators. Also note how GZ isn’t really pointing at the T so much as he may be describing the ducking path I’m talking about from the grass. Don’t let the sidewalks bias your mind. TM’s feet were already wet and he walked where he felt like it. It’s GZ who likely naturally stuck to the sidewalks at first. Human nature on a rainy night.

        Looking at the walk thru video once again just now I wanted to laugh at the idea of how many things happened (the circling the car after doubling back) all the topics GZ says he and sean discussed before he got out “to look for a street sign.” I’m sure one thing we can all agree on, this was no “re-creation” video. He’s not even recreating his own previous lies very well. Each time it’s a new story.

  25. April 20, 2013 at 4:48 PM

    I agree w you tchoupi that GZ went looking for trouble. The difficult part of that is that he has a right to walk wherever he pleases and is breaking no laws walking around in the dark with a flashlight and a gun he has a permit for.

    He doesn’t however have a right to chase the teen with his car and THEN chase the teen on foot with a gun and a flashlight. Hence, his bullshit story about looking for a street sign, and “returning to his vehicle.” Yet STILL in some regard you can say he STUCK to his story of “returning to his vehicle” if one is inclined to see things with a pro-defense bias. He was challenged directly on the matter but never broke down and admitted he is full of shit, or changed his mind as to what he was doing out there on foot in the proverbial dark alley.

    The problem I have with “returning to his vehicle” is that of course like you said he had all the time in the world to do so and yet never made it. He fast walk/jogs away from his car for only a few short moments before being reminded “we don’t need you to do that.” Start a stopwatch THERE and tell me how long it should have taken him to get back. I myself can say I am “returning to Capisrano” with the proverbial migratory Swallows but until and unless I arrive there no one can prove that was my actual intention unless I filed a flight plan with the FAA. If I say this after my flight was interrupted, who is to say where I was really going?

    But again, this speaks to his motive and credibility but is not in and of itself a crime. He’s”returning to his vehicle” the long way, I guess his defenders could say of the GPS shows he moved around in a search pattern of some sort that flies in the face of his account. Of course they will never give up. His PTSD and ADHD and undiagnosed brain injuries made him “befuddled,’ right?

    But that’s why to me the actions PRIOR to the exit of the car are so vital. if you walk past my parked car and later I get out, that’s two unrelated things. If I watch you walk past my car that I searched for you with then parked in a spot I’m lying about, and then FOLLOW you with my car, and then you run away off the roadway and I STOP my car IN ORDER to get out and move after you, then I’ve broken the law.

    Another obvious trouble point for the defense is that GZ NEVER once related to the SPD investigators that TM ran. He only speaks of it when prompted, and his initial statements omit the activity. But for the NEN call recording, the SPD would never have known TM ran at all. Think about that. Why was it so important for GZ to omit this activity? Perhaps because it was HIS ” slow mo car chase” that caused the running in the first place.

    It’s the “depraved mind” aspect that will make or break a murder 2 conviction. And I think the car to pedestrian slow mo pursuit is what will seal the deal if BDLR has his act together.

    And I also agree w tchoupi that the route in the missing minutes is of no real consequence in the end. Someone closed a gap and TM was found on an innocent path leading towards his abode, while GZ was off his “returning to(wards) his vehicle” path.

    What we are really talking about here is what strategy the prosecution needs to employ at trial. I’d love to solve the mystery of “they went thataway” but we need more data to do that.

  26. April 20, 2013 at 9:01 PM

    willisnewton :

    I don’t see any reason that TM would run if he managed to walk to the T unimpeded. What intimidated him at that point? Why not just walk south?

    He was already intimidated, as we agree GZ was following him (or going the same direction…) in the truck, and he told DeeDee that he was afraid before he ran. I think he was trying to play it cool, and waiting to run “from the back” in order to attempt to elude GZ by not giving away his intent to escape until he was close to a place where he could quickly put a sizable building between himself an GZ’s sight line. I think a kid being followed would definitely have his ears open, and he would have heard that GZ HADN’T gotten out of the truck at the time he made his break. He would not have just walked South nor merely hid in the first partitioned back yard because whether he heard the truck door open or not (I hear doors opening and closing from that far away from INSIDE my house) he would have to assume that GZ MIGHT be coming after him, and want to put some distance between them and find a good hiding spot, with an escape route (like the first gap between the buildings…)

    Again, while some witness accounts seem consistent with the confrontation beginning near the T, that can’t be reconciled with DeeDee’s statement. You postulated that DeeDee only heard the beginning of a longer argument bewteen GZ and TM, and that is both plausible and consistent with the witness statements. But she states her contact with Trayvon ended when the phone dropped to the ground. If that happened mid-argument that places the argument South of the body where the phone was found. I don’t think there is any way to reconcile these two pieces of testimony. Someone must be mistaken, but we don’t know who. And then there’s W2 observation of some sort of South to North movement — which I doubt would be Austin chasing his dog, since Austin lost sight of the struggle when the dog broke away, suggesting the pup took off in the opposite direction. (Did any of the Sanford Sherlocks ever bother to ask Austin which way the dog ran exactly? Probably not…) In sum, the evidence for where the confrontation started is too contradictory to make any conclusions.

    As for Trayvon staying near the T, possibly hiding in John’s bag yard, that’s what Zimmerman claims. (Many things are possible, but what… well you know.) He says he was at the T when TM emerged out of nowhere from the South and came up to confront him. If Trayvon was in John’s back yard, then HE has to move to close the gap to allow the confrontation to start at the T, where GZ’s min-light was found.

    [ BTW tchoupi: it is NOT established that the mini-light was attached to “the keys to Zimmerman’s truck”. There was a single Honda key on the ring, and Shellie had a Honda sedan as well a GZ having the Ridgeline. It was probably a spare key to one of their vehicles that GZ too with him when he left the house because it had a flashlight attached. At one point, he tells Sean “They’ll see my truck; the keys are in the ignition.(some people dispute this, but some people don’t have very good ears…) ]

    If we are to believe DeeDee, and if we are to come up with any plausible account of what happened during the missing minutes, we must conclude that Zimmerman relocated Trayvon from some distance away, and gradually closed that distance while tranversing a significant bit of terrain (not just in the vicinity of the T.)The prosecution does not have to prove what route this followed, or even necessarily prove BRD that DeeDee’s account of a somewhat extended foot pursuit is indeed accurate. But they need to be able to establish that such a scenario, or several versions of events that could lead to that description, are at least POSSIBLE, since the ‘common sense’ wisdom WILL be “Why didn’t Trayvon just go home?” and “He must have walked back toward the truck for SOME reason?” From the beginning, the only answer that has made sense to me is that somehow while Trayvon was eluding GZ by hiding or taking a convoluted path initially away from the Green home, GZ got to his South, and Trayvon moved back toward the truck to get away from GZ (and not reveal to his stalker where he and Chad lived). The reason I put my speculative animation about this at the end of the sec cam video is to prove that it’s POSSIBLE — that GZ had enough time at walking speed to get all the way down RVC and zig over the base of TTL to the dogwalk, heading back up it South to North, and THEN have a foot pursuit at walking pace all the way back up to John’s before the confrontation would have began. At least this scenario fills the missing minutes with something plausible each man might do. (TM: hide for awhile then continue toward home. GZ: head down to the back gate, then seeing nothing there, double back to the dog walk.) None of the other scenarios I’ve seen fill the time with equally plausible and possible movements, IMHO.

    • April 20, 2013 at 10:13 PM

      I don’t doubt that this is possible. I never have. I just don’t see it as the most plausible. For one, why would GZ get out of his car at all if he knew for certain which way the teen was running and wanted to intercept or keep tabs on him? Why wouldn’t he just drive south?

      Whereas if the teen ran off the roadway suddenly and into the darkness of the cut thru, and had an unknown path GZ would want to reach the T to see which way he went, which IMO GZ did at a fast pace, and then possibly went to RVC, the next place where there were choices to scope out. GZ made assumptions IMO about the teen’s needing to get to the back entrance to escape and so said any running must be with that in mind. But then when he GOT to the T, he didn’t see or hear anyone on the LONG sidewalk. A person going to the back would still be somewhere on the sidewalk in the time it took GZ to reach the T. So the kid must have gone to RVC. “I don’t know where this kid is,” he tells NEN as he moves between T and RVC. But just before he thought he DID know – headed down to the back. What he thought and said was WRONG, and he’s essentially admitting as much.

      And again I don’t see why TM would wait to run until he was at the T. I think TM never went anywhere near the T, in fact. If he walked to the T then the whole while his threat level was lessening with each step. Why run unless the car jumped the curb? Whereas the idea that he runs from the roadway as a car threatens him puts his panic and/or strategic move occurring at precisely the point where it’s do or die, all or nothing. As TM approached the second bend in TTL he knew if he continued on the roadway south he’d continue to be followed or worse. But if he exited the roadway he might lose the car since cars don’t usually jump the curb and go four wheeling with little to no provocation.

      I think he lost his call connection to Dee Dee at some point before he ran and that was intimidating. He may have even deliberately hung up so she wouldn’t hear him run like a chicken. It’s possible GZ was driving in reverse, lights off. How obvious is that that the person doesn’t like you? It’s also possible GZ pulled AHEAD of the teen in reverse to form a defacto roadblock – even scarier, although I discount this possibility since he’d likely tell Dee Dee some specifics about a nutty move like that, even if he had to do it later. But as I time the move, he’s walking to the corner and freaking out about the car that slides behind him, the car that trolled the mail kiosk and did a uturn already. So he runs away from the roadway executing his plan to run “from the back” it off road.

      And tragically, I think he ran around the grass path and made the corner and ran off some steps when his phone rang, causing him to STOP running. (who knows, had Dee Dee not called back he might have kept running home, or close enough that it wouldn’t have mattered.) But I think he stopped to answer it. He’d achieved his goal – leaving the roadway where a car was moving behind him. He had options, and a friend to consult. Why move? To run south was to risk having the car out run him. To run west to RVC would carry him to another roadway where the car had a clear advantage. To double back would be to face his antagonist. Only a real nutjob would park a car and come after someone in a dark “alley.” Darkness was his friend. Hunker down and wait for things to blow over.

      I also thing TM was engaged in running to an extent and with timing as such that he had no idea that GZ exited his car. He had headphones on, possibly/probably. He ran his arse off and got out of sight quickly maybe not before GZ could stop, put the car in park and open the door, (which makes a lot less noise than closing the door, btw, which took an additional ten seconds or so) but I doubt the kid looked back at all as he ran. It’s just the way I see it happening.

      You and I are going to have to continue to agree to disagree. Again however we are part of a consensus that sees the very strong likelihood that GZ moved his car behind the teen as the two moved frmo clubhouse vicinity to cut thru vicinity and this is a very obvious aggressive move on GZ’s part and likely an actual crime in Florida which blows his self-defense claim clearly out of the water and into a zillion little pieces.

      The rest is literally unimportant – the moment GZ’s foot hit the ground with that gun in his had and he took two steps in the direction he admitted he was going in – “are you following him? /yeah” he has no right to claim self defense and TM has EVERY right to “stand his ground” and meet an attacker with force.

    • April 21, 2013 at 1:09 AM

      Whonoze,

      Indeed, it is not established that the keys were that of the Ridgeline. Good point. Did anyone compared the keys with what Honda provides?

      #######

      I think you should listen again to SuzaneW2’s interviews. Don’t base anything on what she says. She really is problematic. In her 1st interview, she just uses her sister’s account. In her 2nd account she has to tell her story she must have been warned about what it really means. Please, listen again to her interviews and tell me what you think.

      #######

      Concerning DeeDee’s narrative, she is pretty clear that she could hear an argument before the phone dropped. She gives no duration although my interpretation is that everything is short from the start of the argument. In the end I don’t see how it contradicts the fact that the 2 started arguing near the T and moved down while arguing to JohnW06’s backyard. It is actually consistent with the witness’ statements about the argument turning the corner and moving south.

      Finally, I am under the impression that the 2 men actually started their physical confrontation even further south.
      If you look to W03’s drawing, you’ll find that she places the ground fight south from the concrete block that is at the south edge of John’s near hers. Even if she points to the wrong concrete block in that drawing, the only other one that would really make it is the one right next to where TM’s cell phone was. It is located south from where TM’s body is found.
      I then compared W03’s drawing with JohnW06’s drawing and realized that he actually places the 2 men a bit to the north of where W03 places them but still south from where TM’s body is found.
      All that to say that it looks to me like the ground fight moved South-to-North while the loud argument moved North-to-South. That can explain the distribution of items found on the ground.

      Super-Finally,
      I find it also interesting that the white t-shirt W03 saw could easily be TM’s or GZ’s shirts as they both are light grey.
      It is a particularly interesting to point that out as the last DeeDee heard before the phone went dead is “Get off!!! Get Off!!!” (IIRC). That would put GZ on top at the very beginning of the ground fight, and that could be what W03 saw.

      • April 21, 2013 at 2:26 AM

        I have a different take on W2 and her second account: I think she may have realized by then they the SPD was grooming her to be the star witness for the prosecution and she didn’t want the job, so she backed off on her “certainty” levels but didn’t “recant” anything.

        But here’s my question: what would she say if you put her on the witness stand and asked her to read her first interview transcript and tell the court if she was telling the truth when she says she saw a two-person foot chase? Would she say she was lying then? Serino was pretty specific with her in asking what she saw and she told a clear story of what she says she saw.

        Remember, in NO version of anything could GZ be said to have described a two person foot chase, no matter the direction of travel or who chased whom.

        • amsterdam1234
          April 21, 2013 at 8:08 AM

          The problem with w2 is that in her very first interview, she says she was in the kitchen cooking. That was her sisters story. Later she said she saw it from the upstairs window.

          I am wondering if the rumor about the 8 year old that saw the entire incident from a screened in porch, may have been w2’s daughter and/or her friend. Their house is the only non corner house with a screened in porch. She may not have wanted her daughter to testify.

        • April 21, 2013 at 2:32 PM

          W1 and W2 do not have a screened in porch.

      • amsterdam1234
        April 21, 2013 at 8:13 AM

        I am fascinated by that white t-shirt. Your explanation does seem the only logical one. What I find interesting is that John changed his statement from GZ wearing a red jacket to GZ wearing a white or red top.

  27. April 20, 2013 at 9:18 PM

    whonoze :
    IANAL as well, but it seems to me MOM can introduce the idea that TM doubled back and attacked GZ in his opening statement, and then question various prosecution witnesses about whether they can rule out that possibility, which I would presume they could not.

    That assumes that the prosecution cares to call any witnesses at all for the defense to challenge the notion that anyone went anywhere ever beside out of a car and into John’s back yard. Under the strict KISS approach, they would call someone to verify the authenticity of the NEN call recording and maybe someone to say yes, it’s George speaking on it or that the call came from his phone. And they would call ofc Tim Smith possibly to testify that GZ admitted shooting the kid on the minutes after. I’m not sure they would even need to do that, but they probably would.

    The KISS prosecution idea is to force GZ to the stand to CLAIM self defense by presenting ONLY facts that would likely not be in dispute were the trial larger in scope and rhetoric. “Does the defense deny that on the night in question the defendant exited a vehicle to follow a pedestrian into a dark area after treating him like a suspect, aka profiling him and declaring it looked like he was up to no good? If so would they care to call to the stand someone who can rebut the words he said to the NEN call taker because that’s whats on the recording?”

    Would the defense like at this time to rebut the idea that the defendant shot an unarmed teenager? Because we just presented an experienced officer of the law who head him say he did.

    Does the defense deny that this is the gun and bullet that was used and recovered at the scene and in the deceased chest?

    Ladies and gents of the jury, the state asserts that the defendant showed a depraved mind when he exited his car gun in hand to pursue and shoot this unarmed minor who ran away, and asks that you vote in a guilty verdict. We have heard that he profiled the kid. We have heard that he pursued the kid, it’s obvious he found what he sought in the dark, and harbored ill will and a depraved mindset – what person follows and then shoots an unarmed minor who is running away from him? And we have heard testimony that he admits he shot the kid and we have seen the proof that it was his gun and his bullet that ended the life of a good kid who was not breaking any law. The defense rests, it’s your case, mister O’Mara.

    In what way could the defense refute this?

    The argument that “It MIGHT have been self defense” isn’t proof it was self defense, and it isn’t proof that the state failed to show a depraved mind and a killing attributable to the defendant. It’s a doubt against the case the state is presenting but not a reasonable one unless there are some “reasons” aka testimony asserting as much, testimony that is not hearsay.

    MOM as I understand it can’t do that for him. If you want to say you shot someone but you did it in self defense, the burden is on YOU to make that claim. Otherwise you just shot someone, which is murder.

    Whatever anyone besides GZ says that GZ told them is hearsay and in-admissable in court in regards to self-defense as an affirmative defense as I understand it. .

    MOM has already waived the idea of an immunity hearing before the trial. He claims the privilege of doing so later and this MAY be because he wishes the state to present its’ fullest case instead of the KISS one. If for whatever reason the prosecution is unable to prove murder or a lesser crime when they rest their case, then MOM can petition the judge to say so and he need never present a defense at all, but instead proceed to file a motion asking for an immunity hearing to follow. This has about as much chance as happening as a snowball in hell has, but in theory as I understand it this is what he is planning for.

    Were he to attempt to prove self defense at an immunity hearing before the trial, he needs to put GZ on the stand. He cannot do that and so he isn’t going to try. IMO the best he can do for his client at this point, besides try to stall, is to hope that the state cannot prove M2 during their opening presentation at trial and hope that they can’t prove manslaughter either by virtue of lacking a witness to the start of the scuffle and MOM knocking down any proof they present by introducing reasonable doubt to the evidence presented, AS he cross examines and rebuts what the state presents, and then MOM arguing in a written motion that the state did not prove its’ case and so the judge issue a summary dismissal for lack of evidence.

    But MOM he CANNOT argue that what happened was self-defense. He’s got no way to introduce the concept that would not be instantly objected to by BDLR. He can only argue that the state didn’t prove a murder happened that his client was responsible for.

    And if BDLR limits what he presents, MOM may not have anything much to inject reasonable doubt into on cross examination.

    Call me crazy but this might be the best way to convict GZ.

    • April 20, 2013 at 9:47 PM

      Indeed, it might be. But if that’s the only arrow in Bernie’s quiver when he goes into court, he could be in for a surprise.

      MOM: Mr. Noffke, what time was it when Mr Zimmerman indicated he had lost sight of Mr. Martin? Do you know where Mr. Martin went after that point? Do you know what Mr. Martin was doing between the end of Mr. Zimmerman’s call and the time their physical confrontation began? Can you confirm that X minutes passed between the end of the NEN call and the start of the first 911 call. Let me show you a map of RATL marked with distances. It’s X yards from the point Mr. Zimmerman last observed Mr. Martin to the door of Ms. Green’s home. How long would you say it would take you to walk that far?
      Bernie: Objection!
      But how does Judge Nelson rule, and how does the jury un-hear the question…

      Nvertheless, if I had to guess, I’d guess GZ will testify. I have the feeling he’s driving the truck and MOM is just fulfilling his professional responsibilities as he watches his client drive the Ridgeline over the cliff and into the slammer. I suspect GZ is delusional and is just itching to have his day in court and spin out his story for the jury. The defense witness list is full of people whose only seeming relevance would be as character witnesses for GZ. MOM has to know that if he calls any of them, he’s going to face W9 among others in rebuttal testimony. So methinks if MOM is in control he’s bluffing, but he may not be in control and GZ may demand he call all his buddies to testify what a great good guy the jury is seeing in Ol’ Tugboat.

      Bernie may not have to force GZ to do anything. But if MOM is running the show, GZ won’t testify, and MOM won’t just sit on his hands if Bernie tries the KISS strategy. He’ll make every attempt to get elements of GZ’s take in through the back door, no matter how many times Nelson shuts him down, and that could even make the jury sympathetic to GZ, as in ‘what is it the prosecution doesn’t want to talk about? Hmmm.” Fred Leatherman is not on the bench, and Xena won’t be in the jury box.

      • April 20, 2013 at 11:04 PM

        It’s courtroom television in Florida. We’re in for a show, I’ll agree on that!

        I tend to think MOM was grandstanding hoping for a plea deal with favorable terms but I also tend to think it isn’t going to be offered. He’s gotta be the one to ask for it, and when or if he does they will laugh in his face. This may have happened already for all we know. Sadly he’s got nothing much to offer besides “to spare the state the expense of a trail,” which at this point is probably the cheapest item on the balance sheet. The investigation cost plenty I bet.

        He was smart in some ways to bluff as long as he did but it’s getting to be showdown time very very soon and the state didn’t fold.

        Also lawyers say when you “got nothing” just try to force your opponent into being so annoyed they commit an error – either the prosecution or the judge, so you can file an appeal. He’s on that path already but it only worked a little bit, if you count getting Judge Lester off the case a “victory” for George. It may have bought him a month more of house arrest.

        And yeah, George may be driving the ridgeline over the cliff or planning to testify eventually but I think MOM has let him know there is a chance that the prosecution can’t really prove the crime when it’s their turn at bat, and that the defense should wait and see. This is pretty much standard procedure since the prosecution has to go first anyway. One can hope they are incompetent or make a fatal mistake.

        Of course, when they do hear what BDLR and his investigators have to present, it may finally finally be time for GZ to accept his fate somewhat. They will limply go thru the motions to present a defense of some sort, and introduce some doubt into some of the prosecution’s case and MOM may even have a good opening he can’t really deliver on, or a decent summation worthy of Jeralyn Merrit’s caliber of semi-convincing but for the elephant in the room bullshit, but I doubt that GZ will take the stand. His goose is likely cooked by text messages, or GPS, or god knows what. I think it’s cooked by a map and a stopwatch and the NEN call but don’t forget there is Dee Dee, Sabrina and forensics to be presented too. I don’t see a big role for any of the resident witnesses but that’s just me. They will be there and they will testify but the jury will rule on George’s lack of credibility and the fact that he’s caught in some huge lie that is so obvious we’ll all kick ourselves for a month for having worried about anything.

        And then George will go to prison for a very long time while some other lawyer tries to get him an appeal (and fails). MOM will write his book and go on cable tv news as a talking head.

      • April 20, 2013 at 11:14 PM

        Also I don’t see the KISS prosecution as only one arrow in a quiver since it’s a two pronged approach – first they make a very simple case and THEN whatever the defense introduces they shoot down with fifty cannons all at once – SPD statement contradictions, omission, obfuscations, lies, inconsistencies, and strong circumstantial forensics, devastating rebuttal witnesses, highly articulate experts, Dee Dee, Sabrina, audio analysis and stopwatch/maps, GPS etc etc etc. The whole kitchen sink and then some, but ONLY as rebuttal to defense witnesses and testimony and experts etc. and always with the reminder present “that this case is quite simple” and that “these are the last acts of a desperate man” and that until the defense can actually refute the very very basic idea that there is a bullet in the kid’s chest that killed him which came out of THAT liar over there sitting at the table’s gun then we are all just wasting the jury’s time.

      • amsterdam1234
        April 21, 2013 at 7:53 AM

        Those kind of questions for Sean will not be allowed. He can only testify about the call. BdlR will ask him questions like “did you in anyway suggest to mr. Zimmerman that he should get out of his car and follow mr. Martin?” and “what was the reason you asked “are you following him?””.

        MOM will ask him if he has the authority to tell someone not to follow.

        That will be about it for Sean.

      • unitron
        April 25, 2013 at 8:58 AM

        “Fred Leatherman is not on the bench, and Xena won’t be in the jury box.”

        : – )

        : – )

        : – )

    • unitron
      April 25, 2013 at 8:55 AM

      “Ladies and gents of the jury, the state asserts that the defendant showed a depraved mind when he exited his car gun in hand…”

      At which point O’Mara’s objection that the state has no evidence that Zimmerman ever touched the gun until just before firing it brings things to a screeching halt.

  28. amsterdam1234
    April 21, 2013 at 8:44 AM

    whonoze :
    IANAL as well, but it seems to me MOM can introduce the idea that TM doubled back and attacked GZ in his opening statement, and then question various prosecution witnesses about whether they can rule out that possibility, which I would presume they could not.

    IANAL either but I don’t think that is how it works. You can’t ask witnesses to speculate about something. You can probably have a person who is recognized by the court as an expert witness, make an educated guess based on the evidence. The other witnesses can only testify to what they heard or saw.

    • April 21, 2013 at 2:39 PM

      Also, all of the prosecution witnesses are on the defense witness list, including half of the SPD. Especially for those the prosecution does not call. the defense can call and not be limited by the bounds of cross-examination from their direct. It’s just wishful thinking to imagine that there is no way MOM can get elements of GZ’s take introduced through the back door. Only GZ himself can claim self-defense, but certain particulars that might support that claim, for example the fact that Trayvon would have had time to get home, can be gleaned from other witnesses.

      • amsterdam1234
        April 21, 2013 at 4:05 PM

        I don’t know Whonoze. It has been fascinating for me to watch procedures in a self defense case.

        In your example, nobody can claim to know where Trayvon was when he ran and in what direction. GZ can make a claim about that, but he would have to get on the stand. So how can anybody claim to know how much time it would’ve taken Trayvon to run home?

        • April 21, 2013 at 4:23 PM

          That’s what fascinates me too. The KISS approach to a prosecution trial strategy seems hard to beat for the defense. It’s pretty much posed as , “is that your bullet we dig out of that dead body, pal? What’s that? You don’t wanna talk? Well boys, get a rope. This guy is guilty.”

        • amsterdam1234
          April 21, 2013 at 4:44 PM

          GZ is damned if does and damned if he doesn’t. I think he will have to get on the stand. If he doesn’t get on the stand, no “I couldn’t remember the name of the street”, no “I wasn’t running, it was windy”, no ” he came back and circled my car”, no “he hit me on the nose at the T” and I flew 40 ft through the sky, no “he slammed my head in the ground and he smothered me” and very important no “people were coming outside and I was on top of him trying to restrain him”.

  29. amsterdam1234
    April 21, 2013 at 4:07 PM

    whonoze :
    W1 and W2 do not have a screened in porch.

    Go check the photos, they do.

    • April 21, 2013 at 5:00 PM

      http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/trayvon-zimmerman-case-photos/?album=1&gallery=7&nggpage=2

      look at pics 2 and 10 on this page. The patio is screened in.

      • amsterdam1234
        April 21, 2013 at 5:07 PM

        Check photo 78 from this set. I think this photo was taken from where the body was. If someone was on that patio and the lights were off, they would’ve had a front row seat.
        http://www.wtsp.com/news/photo-gallery.aspx?storyid=255685

      • amsterdam1234
        April 21, 2013 at 5:10 PM

        Actually those are on the south end of the dogwalk.

    • April 21, 2013 at 6:03 PM

      My bad. I did find a photo that shows 1 & 2’s rear door (for sure), and the little overhang is screened in.

      Whether a person behind a screen can see well, or be seen from the exterior, depends on the light from behind the screen. If the lights were off in the exterior, and the porch light was off, someone would have had a clear view of the scene w/o being able to be detected. If either the porch light or the interior lights were on, that would have muddied the view out somewhat (though not entirely) but would definitely show the person behind the screen as a clear silhouette to anyone on the outside.

      When ABC took a night-vision video of the area, everything on W11 and W20’s screened in porch is clearly visible marked out by the porch-light and the light from the interior of the unit.

      If Jeremy had been out on the porch (as he denies, but I suspect) GZ would easily have been able to see him, and could have called to him for help in ‘restraining’ TM. I doubt this cry was to John, because I think John had already retreated to the upstairs by the time GZ got any kind of control over TM.

  30. April 21, 2013 at 6:18 PM

    amsterdam1234 :

    So how can anybody claim to know how much time it would’ve taken Trayvon to run home?

    Distance, time, average walking speed for an adult. Trayvon wouldn’t have needed to run. He could easily have walked home. Except, of course, he was hiding from or trying to dodge a strange man that was following him. Not knowing where the creepy man was, he would have been foolish to walk right home and risk revealing where he lived.

    Of course, MOM wouldn’t need to ask specifically about Trayvon for that point, “Given that the average walking speed is X, could someone walking at that pace have walked from the T to the Green home in the missing minutes? Could someone have walked from the T to the Green home, and back again to the T in that time?”

    And he can also ask what possiblities the evidence fails to exclude in more specific terms. MOM: “Detective, did your investigation reveal any concrete evidence as to what path Travvon Martin took during the minutes before the shooting? Can you absolutely rule out, for example, that he might have walked toward the Green home, turned around, and walked back towards the T?”

    Of course, i think Trayvon DID walk toward the Green home, turn around and head back for the T, not to double-back to catch-up with Zimmerman, but doubling-back to get AWAY from Zimmerman, who had worked his way to the South end of the dogwalk…

    • amsterdam1234
      April 22, 2013 at 1:14 AM

      Who places him at the T? The only person who claimed Trayvon was near the T at that time was GZ. DD most certainly doesn’t, she places him at the mail area and said he started walking and then ran somewhere to get rid of GZ. Nobody, except for GZ can place Trayvon anywhere near the T.

  31. April 21, 2013 at 11:18 PM

    amsterdam1234 :
    The problem with w2 is that in her very first interview, she says she was in the kitchen cooking. That was her sisters story. Later she said she saw it from the upstairs window.
    I am wondering if the rumor about the 8 year old that saw the entire incident from a screened in porch, may have been w2′s daughter and/or her friend. Their house is the only non corner house with a screened in porch. She may not have wanted her daughter to testify.

    Could you tell me more about that rumor? I never heard about it.

  32. April 21, 2013 at 11:45 PM

    willisnewton :
    I have a different take on W2 and her second account: I think she may have realized by then they the SPD was grooming her to be the star witness for the prosecution and she didn’t want the job, so she backed off on her “certainty” levels but didn’t “recant” anything.
    But here’s my question: what would she say if you put her on the witness stand and asked her to read her first interview transcript and tell the court if she was telling the truth when she says she saw a two-person foot chase? Would she say she was lying then? Serino was pretty specific with her in asking what she saw and she told a clear story of what she says she saw.
    Remember, in NO version of anything could GZ be said to have described a two person foot chase, no matter the direction of travel or who chased whom.

    I think you’re too nice with SuzaneW02, Willi.

    Serino interviewed her in front of her sister’s house, that was her first interview and that was before her sister SeleneW01 got interviewed too. The account she (W02) gives to Serino happens to be essentially that of her sister. But telling a story that is not hers was not enough as she also gave details that are not part of her sister’s story and that she herself would not confirm in are following version of her story. The two person’s chase and the fist fight are not part of her sister’s story and not part of her following accounts of the events.

    SeleneW01 has a consistent story. There is nothing fantastic in that story. As Amsterdam noted in an earlier post, W01 is one of the witnesses of the few second after the gunshot. But, in that story, her sister W02 did not even realize that there was a gunshot. She thought the bang was something dropped by W01. In short, she missed it all. I can’t believe she even saw shadows or heard steps.

    I don’t know why W02 gave that 1st account. What I know is that it was seriously wrong. It puts her character into question and it helps nobody but GZ.

    • amsterdam1234
      April 22, 2013 at 5:49 AM

      W1 and w2 didn’t call 911 and didn’t give statements that evening. I think it is possible w2 didn’t see anything but her daughter may have seen important parts of the incident. Maybe w2 wanted to protect her daughter, but later felt guilty for with holding important information and made up a story with details she learned from her sister and daughter and reported that story as her own. Maybe when she realized she was a key witness, she started to withdraw her statements.

      A lot of maybees, but I think there is some evidence that this could’ve happened.

      I am glad I found the report about the search for the 8 year old eyewitness. I had forgotten most of the details. So Batchelor didn’t check back with W2’s place because he already had statements.

      Who wants to speculate why this report was released in December?
      I am hoping they found the witness after all, and they want to use this report to show this witness told her story in the weeks following the murder, and not at a much later date.

    • April 22, 2013 at 7:21 AM

      @tchoupicaillo
      As Whonoze notes Dave’s video makes it look really dark but according to another gentleman (he is much calmer and less wacky of late) you probably know but unnameable here who also filmed two YT videos at night walking the routes Trayvon might have taken, in the actual commentary he notes that although witness say it was very dark down the dog walk (his video is pretty dark albeit not as dark as Dave’s), according to him it is NOT that dark. He also notes the sloped lawns either side of the paving, and he picked up one of the sprinkler or whatever covers seen in the evidence photos that were thought could be what GZ got his head wounds from but says they are really thin plastic and very unlikely to have caused them. I hope I don’t get too harsh a bollocking for this… or worse! I have been discreet and the info could be useful.

      • April 23, 2013 at 11:13 AM

        This isn’t the Lounge, and you can name handles of anyone who posts on YT, TalkLeft, the Treehouse or anyplace else, and post links or even embed videos if you believe they are relevant. I’m not familiar with the videos you mention. Are they by DiwataMan? AFAIK he does not live in FL, and I would guess he would have to have gotten the footage from someone else. I know one of the other Talk Left regulars (I forget who) does live in FL and was working with NMNM to get stills of various stuff at RATL…

        • April 23, 2013 at 2:23 PM

          @whonoze
          Thanks whonoze. I know you are open and I really appreciate that, as I am sure all coming here does too, but precisely on this one I’m not so sure because something I am sure of is I read a comment only recently kindly requesting we not bring in stuff from this YT poster for being too “wacky”, and to be honest I only decided to suggest it to Tchoupi because RATL la nuit videos are a rarity and I thought it just might help with his ponderings.

          Please say you now who I mean so I may avoid having to type the handle and risk finding myself wandering cyberspace looking for a relevant, intelligent, friendly, and quiet blog to post in where one isn’t looked on as a troll every so often.
          ; – )

  33. April 21, 2013 at 11:58 PM

    I guess everyone has seen David K.’s video of RATL by night on Feb. 26th.

    The big lesson is that it was really dark and probably impossible to see anything or anybody away from a light source.
    Too bad David did not show what the T looks like when seen from TTL in the night. However, at 3:20, you can seen TTL from the dogwalk through one of the little cutthroughs.

    What I take from it is that GZ could not have seen, from his truck on TTL, TM running south from the T.

  34. April 22, 2013 at 1:15 AM

    tchoupicaillou :

    The big lesson is that it was really dark and probably impossible to see anything or anybody away from a light source….

    What I take from it is that GZ could not have seen, from his truck on TTL, TM running south from the T.

    Tchoupi:
    All you are seeing in Dave’s video is the imaging characteristics of the pickup chip in his video camera, and the auto-exposure function of the aperture. Small format color video has bupkiss for contrast range, and loses all shadow detail. The human eye is MUCH more sensitive under such conditions. If GZ turned his truck around facing East he would easily have been able to see Trayvon in his headlight beams, and even if the truck was facing West as willis has speculated he probably could have perceived dark shadowy shapes where Dave’s video shows only utter blackness. This video is beyond worthless as evidence. (I say this having years of experience with available light videography using prosumer grade cameras that are better than what Dave was using. My students constantly took shots of things they could see fine with their naked eye that turned to murk on the recorded footage…)

    As to willis’s hypothesis that GZ’s truck pursuit of TM took place only in reverse: there is a repeated rustling sound in the NEN call that appears to come from someone in a nylon jacket turning the steering wheel of the vehicle sharply. This contradicts the all-in-reverse speculation. It is also too late in the sequence of events to be a forward U-turn from the first bend on RATL. The problem is that if GZ made a Y-turn, as I speculated in the sec cam video, there would logically have been TWO of these sequences, with a short pause in between. But we hear only one. It’s possible GZ went in reverse but angling himself,to the opposite side of the street, from which he COULD make a single motion U-turn and wind up on the North side of the street facing East, but that’s kind of counter-intuitive…

    • April 22, 2013 at 6:34 PM

      Again let’s review what we can seemingly all agree on. It was dark and rainy that night. Proximity to GZ affected his ability to make out details like the button on his hoodie. Were George’s headlights on as he moved towards the cut thru, we would see them or the tail lights possibly if his car left the blind spot created by the sconce lights that appear upper right in the pool video. We don’t know how much of TTL is precisely visible in the pool video. GZ seems to have moved his car while the call was being recoded. Trayvon ran someplace. George opened his door quickly but took a moment before he started moving after the teen.

      Can we all agree so far?

    • April 23, 2013 at 2:48 AM

      I hear a lot of sounds after “these axxholes always get away” but I don’t know which ones you attribute to a nylon jacket. Whatever ones they are, could they also not be him looking over his shoulder to see which way to drive in reverse? Perhaps throwing his elbow over the seat?

      I don’t know what all those noise are. It would be great if someone would do some tests to see if they could be reproduced. But the fact remains that the move from clubhouse vicinity to cut thru vicinity is the best way to make sense of the whole sequence of events and a map.

      Maybe he backed up, maybe he did a Y turn. Maybe he backed all the way and at the end hooked around. He darn sure moved his car in that direction IMO.

      I hope we eventually see dash cam from smiths cop car, or some like it, arriving and finally learn which way he was facing. If the SOA has that material tho you would think it would be in the discovery documents, would it not? Or does “Brady” ony have to cover potentially exculpatory material, and evidence of lies are not exculpatory? I’m no lawyer.

      • April 23, 2013 at 9:40 AM

        Repetitive noises that sound like steering wheel turning: 7:11:15 – 7:11:16.

  35. April 23, 2013 at 11:07 AM

    Re-viewing the sec vid animation, I completely disagree that there is enough ‘slop’ in the recorded facts of time and distance for TM to have broken into a run on TTL or on the Western parts of the cut-through sidewalk. I have tried to explain before that creating a credible animation that syncs with the audio closed down many possibilities. I could not fit the facts to my assumptions, I had to adjust my assumptions to plausible depictions of time and space.

    Even slight changes would throw the whole thing out of kilter. For example, I spent hours and hours moving the precise position of the truck near the first bend of TTL, and putting it any closer than I have it just makes it take TM way to long to get across the distance in the gap between the point where GZ see’s him moving and the point he passes the truck. And of course, moving one data point throws off all the other data points down-stream. I don’t think you can really understand how this all works unless you went through the process, so you’ll just have to take my word for it. There is much less possibility for plausible deviation from the animation than you would think.

    In the end, of course, we know almost nothing ‘for sure’ and we are dealing in probabilities. I do not think it productive to attempt to pick at strong probabilities by asserting the slight possibilities on the other side of the ledger. This is mere sophistry unless you can bring strong evidence or argument that shifts the scales.

    E.g. the probability that TM ran to the South is massively larger than the probability he ran in another direction.
    1. TM’s home was in that direction. This not only put him closer to safety but on more familiar terrain.
    2. GZ gives a clear directional marker, repeats it and says it all with clarity an definitiveness in a report in which he is otherwise often tentative at best (“the best address I can give you… I think he’s black” etc. etc.)
    3. It fits the time/space particulars established by the NEN call and the security vids better than any other hypothesis.

    “why would GZ get out of his car at all if he knew for certain which way the teen was running and wanted to intercept or keep tabs on him? Why wouldn’t he just drive south?”
    1. Half-intoxicated control freaks are not known for the cunning cool calculation of their decisions. GZ saw TM run and his chase instinct kicked in with the knobs to eleven. That’s apparent from the shift in the vocal tone on the NEN call, the fact he began running, etc. He even left his keys in the ignition.
    2. His intent, by his own words at the time, was to follow TM.
    3. That fact GZ said TM was going towards something, giving a directional marker, does not mean he was CERTAIN this was TM’s intended destination.
    4. The idea to head over to RVC and surveil the back gate seems to to have occurred to GZ until a) he reached the T and could see no trace of Trayvon, and b) Sean suggested he cease following the teen. These two things seem to have happened at about the same time.

    • April 23, 2013 at 12:21 PM

      Whonoze wrote:
      “Even slight changes would throw the whole thing out of kilter. For example, I spent hours and hours moving the precise position of the truck near the first bend of TTL, and putting it any closer than I have it just makes it take TM way to long to get across the distance in the gap between the point where GZ see’s him moving and the point he passes the truck.”

      This is something I can actually connect to. I remember NMLE made some evaluations and ended with the conclusion that GZ was located near the the middle between the two curves. My personal work suggested the same. However, there are a lot of unknowns: What was TM’s pace? What was his exact path? Was GZ parked or was he moving?

      I believe that was TM’s plan to loose his follower by suddenly going off road. So, he must have fled from the east curve on TTL to the cut through.
      The fact that GZ says “Shit! He’s running” indicates that GZ was caught by surprise. But most importantly, GZ exits his truck only after TM took off. So, GZ realized that he had to be on foot himself only at that moment. I mean following the kid by car became impossible only at that moment, so the TM went on the the dogwalk exactly as he started running.

      It might be other possibilities though. For example: GZ may have not been able to follow TM by car because he was facing the wrong way and as TM started running, it became clear that making a turn would have taken too much time to keep an eye on him. In this case, when TM tells DeeDee that he’ll run from the back, he possibly meant from the back of GZ’s truck rather than the back of houses.

    • April 23, 2013 at 2:33 PM

      Your animation, while excellent and obviously the product of hard work and much experimentation confirms to me that the two moved in concert on some portion of TTL. IMO however it does not and cannot account for exact timing or movements because we don’t know the relative positions and the timing and point of origin of Trayvon’s start point, nor can we know exactly what rate he walked TOWARDS GZ’s vehicle or the exact rate he walked AWAY for the vehicle and if they are equal or not. It’s likely he walked towards the car at one speed and away at another, but I’ll not speculate which was faster, just that this can introduce “slop” into any animation.

      We also don’t know the exact moment when Trayvon started moving, nor where he started from, only that is “near the clubhouse (now)” and that by the time GZ tells Sean he’s moving, he could have been moving for a few seconds already. More slop.

      And lastly we don’t know how far TM ran before GZ noticed it and said as much. Certainly if GZ was backing up his car he would not have his eyes on the teen at all times.

      Assuming TM walked from the mail kiosk to pass GZ vehicle at 4 fps gets one result, if you calculate that this took 30 seconds. What if it took him 33 seconds? etc.

      Assuming TM walks past GZ at 4.5 feet per second gets another result.

      Then you have to wonder, did TM speed up his walk as he walked away from the car? Did he speed up his walking pace AS the car started following him? How much, and when?

      And so on.

      Here’s what I see as the things we can reliably put into an equation.

      GZ was somewhere where he could see TM when he saw him move away from “near the clubhouse.”.

      GZ’s car was passed by TM causing two different reactions – the “here he comes/ there he goes” reaction that is signaled by his demeanor in his speech, changing around the time of “these axxholes always get away.”

      GZ saw the teen run, and said so around the moment he noticed it.

      GZ stopped his car quickly and opened his door. leaving the car in park somewhere.

      The timing is somewhere in the ballpark of walking towards the car for 30 seconds and walking away for 34 seconds.

      I’m not sure what else can be said to be reliable as a basis for speculation. Dee Dee places the teen under the mail kiosk at some point, but I think that’s essentially the same thing as “near the clubhouse” for the purposes of speculation. The pool video seems to show GZ’s car stop facing the mail kiosk on TTL somewhere, but you have to place him there anyway for any model to make sense. I see those things as supporting the obvious.

      Are we in agreement on where to start speculating from? Again I wish to concentrate on what we can all find a consensus regarding. As individuals, we are always going to disagree on particulars.

  36. April 23, 2013 at 12:58 PM

    Folks, I have added color images of the stains on GZ’s Jacket to my http://imgur.com/a/bcAII album.
    My goal here is to have a direct visual impression of the blood distribution. It helps me realize that 1) A chunk of the stains is not even blood, & 2) Most of GZ’s blood stains are concentrated to a few spots.

    I’m working on GZ”s shirt now.

    • April 23, 2013 at 3:04 PM

      Nice idea. Just took a glance and what struck me is how little blood in all there is. Don’t know if normal or not, just that there doesn’t appear to have been that much.

      • April 23, 2013 at 4:50 PM

        No, you’re right there is not much blood because:
        1) There are not many blood stains, and
        2) The blood stains are tiny.

    • April 23, 2013 at 5:23 PM

      I have uploaded the images of GZ’s shirt.
      This is weird to find again that GZ’s blood is concentrated on mostly two spots: 1 on the back & 1 on the chest. I can explain the spots on the chest assuming GZ’s jacket was open but what about the one in the middle of the back.
      So, I wonder if most of blood stains are not contamination from when GZ had to strip his shirt away and give it to SPD.

      • April 24, 2013 at 12:19 PM

        Could the blood on the back have soaked through from the front when the shirt was taken off and laid out flat like it is in thr picture??

        • amsterdam1234
          April 25, 2013 at 7:39 AM

          The stains are tiny and GZ didn’t change his clothes until after 11 pm that evening. Those stains would’ve been dry by then.

  37. April 23, 2013 at 1:16 PM

    tchoupicaillou :

    there are a lot of unknowns: What was TM’s pace? What was his exact path? Was GZ parked or was he moving?

    My point is that once you get down to the nitty gritty of making different scenarios fit into a concrete timeline the unknowns begin to eliminate one another. There are only so many plausible paces, so many plausible paths, and so many plausible combinations of the two.

    One thing we can agree on is that we don’t know which way the truck was facing, and both directions are possible given the limited info at this point. We can also agree that whether or not GZ turned his truck around, for at least some period of time he was following TM (going on the same direction) with the truck in reverse. Any other possibility would have yielded a light event outside the area obscured by the pool sconce.

    For heaven’s sake tchoupi, it’s not “suddenly going off road” if TM is continuing onto the Eastbound sidewalk after walking Eastbound on TTL. It’s a straight line.

    Repeat: there is NO plausible pace and path that puts TM only at the start of the cut-through sidewalk at the point GZ says, “He’s running.” Too much time has passed-by since TM left the mail shed — unless you think he did actually walk in a circle around GZ’s parked car— which would help account for the total time elapsed, but not the specific points before and after certain remarks.

    TM was still quite close to TTL when GZ reached his final parking spot. You can tell when GZ stops on the NEN call because there is the last sound there consistent with the truck being stopped. (7:11:29). After that there are no truck noises until GZ opens the door. (It actually sounds like he puts the truck in Park even earlier at 7:11:19, which would make the tail before TM runs even longer, but if 7:11;129 is the stopping point of the truck, it’s hard to see how it gets to a position near the second curve.) A full ten seconds elapse between the last point when GZ could have stopped his truck and the point where he notices TM running. There is 0% probability that TM could have still been on TTL during this 10 second interval. End of story.

    As TM walked toward the T, GZ was distracted by his attempt to explain the location of the truck to Sean. He had been lulled into losing focus on TM because TM was still walking, and still in GZ’s line of sight. Then, suddenly, TM broke into a run, changing direction, and quickly escaping GZ’s direct line of vision. I still think GZ got out of the truck operating mainly on instinct and boozed bravado, pumped up because the fact TM ran indicated to GZ that TM was afraid, but a foot pursuit was also his best chance to re-establish visual contact with TM quickly.

    • April 23, 2013 at 4:47 PM

      I have to admit that my evaluations has not been very sophisticated.

      I would enjoy seeing your work, and not only the final conclusion.

      What I did, and I’m reading my notes here, is using Googlemap’s measuring tool and assumed different paths from the mailbox to the start of the dogwalk. I assumed that TM walked on the pavement only and found that the length is somewhere between 270ft & 290ft depending on whether he walked along the right edge or the left edge. I see the NEN call is ~65sec long between “Now he’s coming towards me” & “Shit! He’s running”. So, it makes a walking pace between 4.1ft/s & 4.5ft/sec which is slow but doesn’t strike me as impossible.

      ####

      Concerning the sounds, I have to say that it’s really hard for me to identify what is going on, particularly between 1:30 & 2:00 when it seems that TM walked past GZ’s truck.

      There are a few instances that I found interesting and I would like to get people’s opinions on one of them.
      It’s when GZ exits its truck between 2:06 & 2:17. There is a couple of clacking sounds that many claimed being evidence of someone in the truck with GZ. I was thinking that it would be evidence of GZ stepping away from his truck in order to close the door. I put a figure there (http://i.imgur.com/1EvDXeth.png) in order to help. You probably want to listen to the tape, though.
      Why doe it matter? Well, if this is what I think it is then GZ jumped from his seat to the pavement rather then the grass. So, the driver’s side could not have been on the grass side as GZ claims it is in the reenactment. In other words, the steps I hear suggest that GZ’s truck was facing the clubhouse and not the T.

      ####

      Whonoze: “For heaven’s sake tchoupi, it’s not “suddenly going off road” if TM is continuing onto the Eastbound sidewalk after walking Eastbound on TTL. It’s a straight line.”

      That’s right but I don’t think it is my comment. My comment was that GZ could stay in his truck as long as TM was walking on the street. TM going to the dogwalk necessarily removed that option. So, GZ’s exit of the truck is, in my mind at least, the evidence that TM went on the dogwalk.

      #####

      Whonoze: “unless you think he did actually walk in a circle around GZ’s parked car”

      I would not know you Whonoze, I would take it as an insult.

      • April 23, 2013 at 9:22 PM

        I think his car reversed to follow the teen, and one reason I think this is because if it made any sort of a turn we would see it on the clubhouse video, if only the brake lights for one frame, or a light area of some kind being blocked. We don’t, yet it’s clear the car moved, and GZ says he moved the car during the call as well.

        If we are to think for argument’s sake that GZ lied about moving the car during the call, why would he every lie about that? It’s nonsensical.

        I also see that reversing action as a more intimidating move since there is no mistaking the intent – this is now definitely NOT a random car, it’s a car that is following someone. Even a U turn could have a more random reason for being mere happenstance.

        I listened for the footfalls and I hear SOMETHING there that might be feet on asphalt but I couldn’t say that’s what it is. It does make “story sense” to me tho.

        • April 23, 2013 at 9:42 PM

          Thanks for checking for what I think are step the sounds.

          I checked again the chime specs and listen to the NEN and then I asked a colleague I if could check his Honda’s Ridgeline, my conclusion is unchanged: When GZ open his car door, the keys are not in the ignition and the lights are either on or in park mode.

      • amsterdam1234
        April 24, 2013 at 12:34 AM

        It could be the sound of opening/closing one of the storage compartments. Check between 3:45 and 4:15.

        • April 24, 2013 at 12:47 AM

          This is another possibility.
          That’s what I hate with those sounds. I’ll listen again after a rest. Maybe, I’ll find some differences.

  38. April 23, 2013 at 6:36 PM

    If GZ kerb-crawled Trayvon along TTL in reverse, he really snookered himself. He can’t easily reverse around the bend if Trayvon chooses to keep to the road. Nor can he easily chuck a quick U or Y turn. So he’s really committed himself to HAVING to continue on foot, once he gets to the second TTL bend.

    Trayvon kept his cool and showed no fear, just kept walking at a normal pace, until he felt it safe to start running. This would be when he’s level with or a bit past the rear of the vehicle, hopefully in the blind spot. He would certainly have heard the car door opening and closing behind him. As well as GZ talking on the phone. Maybe clearly enough to make out the words. (Sound carries: I often hear people talking on phones from 150 ft away at night, even with some traffic noise in the background). That would be when he decides to duck into the first available cover and lie low.

    • April 23, 2013 at 10:49 PM

      I agree that GZ snookered himself if he reversed the car – and that certainly fits the pattern of his entire life, too. But what we don’t see on the clubhouse videos is his headlights coming back on, and what we do hear seems to be him jamming the car into park. And again, we know that GZ admits he moved the car during the call, so he wasn’t already at the end of the TTL by the cut thru path at all when the call began.

      Imagine for a moment how chilling it would have been to the teen to have a car troll the mail kiosk, then “double back” to stare at you, headlights off for a while. Then when you walk past it, it goes into reverse and shadows you down the lane.

      I think Trayvon showed fairly good judgement in leaving the roadway at first opportunity, running or walking, whichever it was. I think he ran and whonoze thinks somehow he was still walking. He may have waited until he was slightly behind the pickup truck parked on the corner as seen in many photos. While not really hiding him, it at least offered the illusion of cover depending on where GZ was at the moment.

      Maybe in the trial we will somehow learn what the exact time was that Dee Dee called TM back and what exact time he answered, because I think that was probably the time he stopped running. If we knew what that time was we could make some guesses as to where he ran, possibly.

      I don’t however think TM heard the car door open or GZ speaking on the phone. I tend to think he was engaged in running his best and fastest to get away and concentrated on that. The reason I feel like this was the case was because of what Dee Dee says about thinking he was safe off and nearly home, etc and being unsure if he lost the guy at the same time.

      I think GZ wasn’t too far behind and that TM was on the phone when GZ passed on the cut thru path talking on the phone, tapping on his flashlight and looking for the teen. I see it as likely that TM watched from the darkness somewhere as this all happened. He may have heard the jogging/fast walk sounds of GZ approaching the end of the building and had time to hide himself somehow. So what he would have heard would be GZ speaking and fast-walk jogging towards the T, not the actual exit from the car. If this were the case he couldn’t be 100% sure that the guy on the cut thru was the same guy who was in the car. And he couldn’t know if the car was continuing to search for him or not, either. He’d likely have to assume the worst, that one person was on foot after him and another was still in a car. No wonder he was scared.

  39. April 23, 2013 at 6:50 PM

    Was there more witness statement released in the past few month?

    I read SelmaW16’s interviews and found this story about a girl she interacted with as she was outside.

    Selma: “No. The girl from this house, she was trying to go out and she was opened her sliding doors in her porch. And when they called me back, ‘Come on, there’s a shot. What are you doing? Their standing right there.’ So, I told her, ‘Oh my, come back in it’s a shooting. Go back home.’. And apparently this girl go on the front a while. I don’t know.”

    Any idea Who that could be? Per what I know, no girl stated going outside their back porch right after the shooting.

  40. April 23, 2013 at 7:19 PM

    tchoupicaillou :

    I have to admit that my evaluations has not been very sophisticated.

    What I did, and I’m reading my notes here, is using Googlemap’s measuring tool and assumed different paths from the mailbox to the start of the dogwalk. I assumed that TM walked on the pavement only and found that the length is somewhere between 270ft & 290ft depending on whether he walked along the right edge or the left edge. I see the NEN call is ~65sec long between “Now he’s coming towards me” & “Shit! He’s running”. So, it makes a walking pace between 4.1ft/s & 4.5ft/sec which is slow but doesn’t strike me as impossible.

    It’s not clear what you mean by ‘the start of the dogwalk’. I have been using ‘the dogwalk’ to refer only to the North-South section of sidewalk, and ‘the cut through sidewalk’ to refer to the West- East segment between TTL and RVC.

    A slow pace that is merely ‘not impossible’ is not good enough. People do not lollygag when they are scared, and they are prone to walking briskly when it rains. It’s also not just a matter of the total distance traveled but plausible intermediate points for GZ’s fearful reaction, his change of tone, the sounds in the vehicle etc.

    GZ is trying to describe the location of his truck for the 20 secs. before he says “He running.” This suggests the truck is stationary or near to it at that time and GZ has no intention of moving it. The nature of the exchange with Sean isn’t even remotely consistent with GZ ‘running TM off the road’. Besides, had GZ come that close to TM with the moving truck, he would hardly have been surprised that the kid took off running, yet he’s taken utterly unawares. “Shit!”

    Please make timing references using the clock times established in the security cam video, not the elapsed time into the audio recordings. The sec cam video has sound, time and visual material all synched and readily comparable and saves needless going back and forth.

    I cannot show you my method for doing the timing of the animation. It was trial and error. I moved the location and timings of key frames to different points then had to render the files then watch them back to see if they made sense moving through space in sync with the video and audio — which they usually didn’t — and then I made small adjustments and tried it again, and again, and again. Yes, I’m pissy about it. It took me fucking MONTHS to do, and when I tell you it would all fall apart if you started moving things around it’s because I tried lots of deviations far less extreme than this ‘TM ran from TTL’ bullpuckey, and everything fell apart when I did.

    • April 23, 2013 at 8:03 PM

      Could you put a link to the video? It will be easier for me to follow what you’re talking about. Thanks

  41. April 23, 2013 at 9:02 PM

    I hate to say it this way but it seems to me like you are outvoted, Whonoze when it comes to how fast we think TM walked from near the clubhouse to wherever he was when he ran. Amsterdam’s video of Dave’s walk is pretty much dead on to what I see as most likely, and that puts her, me and probably tchoupi on one side of a ledger and you alone on the the other.

    Keep in mind your animation “worked out” a certain way because you keep the teen on a steady rate of moving, when that may not have been the case at all. Also, as odd as it may seem, TM may have indeed circled GZs vehicle in some partial or whole fashion, we really can’t know what route he took. GZ marked his path as on the grass it seems when he drew on Singleton’s map. Boy I hope we someday see the full-res version of that.

    Not that it matters a damn bit. What we all agree on is that the car moved behind the teen and that this is something GZ lied to investigators to conceal. HE thought it was worth lying about and that means he felt it was part of a crime he committed.

    I really don’t see the point in arguing about it. We could all be wrong anyway on the particulars but seem to have found consensus on the important aspect of the matter.

    Hoping to add speculation onto more speculation by saying “they went thataway” in the “missing minutes” with any authority is an exercise in futility as I see it, and not material to proving guilt in a court of law either.

    4.0 to 4.6 feet per second is a perfectly reasonable walking pace for an overall average rate IMO. I think he walked around 140 feet to pass the car, and another similar distance before he ran. I also would guess he walked slower towards the car and faster after passing it. But of course that’s just an estimate and cannot be made accurate because we haven’t the data to establish for certain where things were.

    It seems to me that you have the teen walking around 250 feet in 30 seconds, which is a pace that is almost surely a jog or running. Maybe I’ve got you all wrong tho. Please help me understand what your reasoning is.

    I’m not sure how far you think TM walked to pass the vehicle, so I can’t say why I feel you are coming up with a result that is different from me and amsterdam. By the way, what fault do you find, if any, with the video Amsterdam did that aligns the call with the video of a walking person covering the same ground?

    • April 23, 2013 at 10:08 PM

      Whonoze, I still don’t know what video we’re talking about but if the end result is TM moving at 8.3ft/sec as Willi suggests then you’re assuming TM was speeding maybe even jogging.

      The preferred walking speed for a human ranges from 4.2ft/sec to 5ft/sec with the typical value at 4.6ft/sec.
      The estimate of TM’s speed, I was referring to in an earlier post, is 4.1ft/sec to 4.5ft/sec. So, that puts TM’s pace in a slow but normal walking pace.

      The value of 8.3ft/sec (9km/h) is considered the high limit for a walking speed. Beyond that, you’re probably jogging or in walkrace mode.

      • April 23, 2013 at 10:29 PM

        the video he’s talking about is here, and no it’s not a seven hour long video… he’s referring to the times he feels are the actual time when events shown are taking place. Look for those numbers in a timecode style graphic in the picture window itself.

        If you haven’t seen it, then you missed something impressive. Whonoze did a great job presenting what he has to say and most of it reflects the strong consensus from bcclist-ers, you, me and amsterdam included.

        I don’t think that an exact sync point exists but this may be as close as you can get to one that shows the clubhouse videos with the NEN call synced to it.

        http ://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pw4utMiNido#!

        remove spaces to find link, and settle in. Its 47 minutes long.

  42. April 23, 2013 at 11:47 PM

    tchoupicaillou :

    I still don’t know what video we’re talking about but if the end result is TM moving at 8.3ft/sec as Willi suggests then you’re assuming TM was speeding maybe even jogging.

    I have no idea where willis gets that number. 68 seconds pass between the time Trayvon leaves the mailboxes and when he starts to run. That’s a minimum of 102 yards at standard walking speed, more of TM was walking briskjly but not jogging. Taking a quick look back it seems i have Trayvon moving somewhat too fast. The animation is far too complex to go back and correct this – as i say, chnge on thing and everything else falls apart. So that probably means the whole aniimation of TM and GZ moving East on TTL is worthless.

    Unfortunately I do not know how to use that Google thing that measures distances bewteen two points. As best I can tell on a quick look, and adjusted pace would put Trayvon starting to run about halfway between the beginning of the cut-through sidewalk and the T intersection.

    The whole derivation of this argument was a claim by Willis that the prosecutution could establish that GZ had already committed a crime by running TM off the road, thus making who may have closed on whom during the missing minutes irrelevant. This is projection and fantasy as there is no way the prosecution can prove this scenario BRD. The missing minutes cann;t be wished away, and as of know the only thing the state can offer about hat happened during that time is DeeDee’s statement, which is far less than bulletproof.

    • April 24, 2013 at 12:38 AM

      Whonoze: “Unfortunately I do not know how to use that Google thing that measures distances bewteen two points. As best I can tell on a quick look, and adjusted pace would put Trayvon starting to run about halfway between the beginning of the cut-through sidewalk and the T intersection.”

      This is something I may be able to help you with.
      1) Open a googlemap page with your favorite browser.
      2) At the very bottom of the left margin there are small links: “report a problem”, Maps Labs”, “Help”. Click on “Maps Labs”.
      3) An options window must have popped up. Enable the measurement tool if it is not enabled yet.
      4) click on the button “Save changes” to close the options window.
      5) Now, you have have within the map, next to the horizontal scale, a small icon that roughly represents vertical blue ruler. It is very small and very discrete. Click on that icon.
      6) You should have noticed that the left margin changed to measurement tool. You pick your unit.
      7) You’re ready to measure distance between points. You click on the map to create a point. You can add as many points as you went to draw a path on the map. The tool will calculate the distance from the 1st to the last point via all intermediate points.
      8) have fun.

    • April 24, 2013 at 12:42 AM

      BTW, I calculated the average speed of your TM in your movie. It is ~5.8ft/sec. It is faster than the maximum preferred walk speed but it is still a walk.

    • April 24, 2013 at 7:49 AM

      OK, I found some old notes and that jogged my memory. I have the distance Trayvon walks East in the animation before cutting South as approx. 115 yards in my notes but it’s more like 130 yards. My reference says normal walking speed is 1.5 yards/sec. 130 yards in 68 seconds is 1.9 yards/sec, or 127% of average walking speed.

      My problem with matching Dave K.’s walk-through to the NEN call to get timing for Trayvon is exactly that he’s not walking fast enough. He’s a middle-aged man holding a video camera to his eye, and believe me, looking through a viewfinder slows you down. Trayvon was a long legged teenager, he was scared, it was raining, and he told DeeDee he was going to walk fast.

      t comes back to me now that the reason I wound up with the speed for TM that the animation shows, is that making him walk any slower resulted in the sprites colliding when GZ moved his truck. We do know that GZ did not run over TM, so I didn’t want the animation to look like that happened.

      Again, it’s not just a question of average speed and distance. There are also the contextual cues from the NEN call. As I noted, GZ has reached his final parking spot on the second curve of TTL and is trying to explain his location to Sean for a minimum of 10 seconds (and possibly more like 20 seconds) before GZ notices TM running. This means TM has to be a minimum of 10 seconds East of truck at that time, and probably a bit more. This would put Trayvon, at a minimum, halfway between the T and beginning of the cut-through sidewalk when he broke into his run, just as I had guessed above. But I’d have to dig back into the guts of the animation in a way I simply can’t do now to see if slowing down TM that much would result in an unlikely collision on TTL.

      To get out of the fine weeds of the timing details and back to the somewhat larger point: there is substantial evidence that TM ran South down the dogwalk, and that GZ saw him head in that direction. There is no evidence for any other scenario, only intuitive speculations and arguments that “it’s not impossible.”

      After review, i shall stand by the gist of the animation, if not the precise pace of TM and the exact point he reached on the map when he began running. But it’s close.

  43. April 24, 2013 at 10:19 AM

    Reviewing the animation, I think I question myself most now on the movement of GZ’s truck, taking that later more quiet sound (7:11:29) as the point it comes to a stop and not the earlier more definitive gear-shift like sound. (7:11:17). If the earlier sound indeed marks GZ’s final parking spot, that would mean several things. 1) That position couldn’t be as close to the second curve as we’ve imagined, 2) GZ’s ‘following’ of TM down TTL is less marked and prolonged. He basically would only have time to turn the truck around, not follow down the road afterward. As for going in reverse all the way, I don’t think it fits the sound patterns. Not only is there the shoop-shoop sound I take to be the turning of the steering wheel at 7:11:15 – 7:11:16, but the sound I am taking to be a shift lever is a definite cha-chunk, consistent with the shift lever of an automatic transmission going from Drive, through Reverse, into Park, but not with just going from Reverse to Park, which would only make a single chunk.

    If we made that adjustment to the animation, it would make it even less likely that GZ ‘ran TM off the road’ or that ‘TM ran from the back of the truck’ or similar. But all of these hypotheses strike me as overplaying the key point: the fact that GZ moved his truck in ANY way for ANY distance that allowed him to keep an eye on TM, once Trayvon had passed the truck, would have been apparent to TM (even if he hadn’t turned back to look, he would have heard the motor noises etc.), and would have been intimidating. In one way or another, to a SIGNIFICANT degree, as willis has always contended, GZ followed TM in the truck before getting out.

    Now, the question for the trial again would seem to be, is there enough evidence of the particulars of this following that it could be proven to be a CRIME — stalking whatever — that would undercut if not moot altogether any possibility of a self-defense claim by GZ. I would say the answer to that is clearly, “no.” Not that I’m saying what GZ did in the truck was necessarily NOT criminal, just that it can’t be proven to be criminal BRD.

    • April 24, 2013 at 12:12 PM

      You pprobably already listened to the various noises in the video Amsterdam found on YT.
      If you did not, then have a try. It may help you. I’m definitely not the best person at this game.

  44. April 24, 2013 at 10:36 AM

    gbrbsb :

    @whonoze
    I read a comment only recently kindly requesting we not bring in stuff from this YT poster for being too “wacky”…

    Ah, now i get you. You’re talking about Trent Sawyer! Yes, I do not want to waste bandwidth here swatting Trent’s wacky theories about. But you can embed a video without endorsing it’s POV if you find the footage in it to be useful evidence on it’s own. Like D-Man, I’m sure Trent has some material he’s dug up that others don’t have or haven’t noticed, and there’s no reason to reinvent the wheel by seeking it elsewhere if it’s laid out.

    There is still no video that can show you how light or dark an area appears to the naked eye. It’s not just that you can’t know which exposure is ‘right’ it’s that NO exposure is right because the eye works so differently from an image sensor. But if there was a first person report from someone inside RATL after dark noting what things they could and couldn’t see from various positions, that would have some evidenciary value, although in practice visibility at the T or up and down the dogwalk would probably depend on the combination of porchlights that were on or off at the time, and also the spill from brightly lit rooms facing the rear, none of which would likely be the same on any two occasions.

  45. April 24, 2013 at 10:47 AM

    tchoupicaillou :

    When GZ open his car door, the keys are not in the ignition and the lights are either on or in park mode.

    I am 100% certain that GZ tells Sean “They’ll see my truck: the keys are in the ignition.” Of course, that doesn’t mean the keys ARE in the ignition, what with GZ’s dicey memory and all. He could have pulled the keys from the ignition and dropped them on the floor or seat absent-mindedly, and then a few minutes later, realizing he didn’t have them in his pocket, assume they were in the ignition as he spoke to Sean. (I mean, even I do stuff like that all the time…)

    I remain convinced that the key attached to the mini-flashlight was not the key GZ used to operate the Ridgeline.

    • April 24, 2013 at 11:45 AM

      I obviously cannot tell about the Honda keys found by the poop station, but the chimes won’t lie. When GZ opens his driver’s side door:
      1) The engine is not running,
      2) there is no key in the ignition,
      3) headlights are either on or in park mode, and taillights are on.

      I have a Mazda MPV and my wife has a Honda Insight. Both cars have a chime signal indicating the same events:
      1) Key left in the ignition has a dominant chime. I mean, that signal goes off as soon as the driver’s side door is open independently of the position of the headlight’s switch.
      2) If no key in the ignition, then the headlight chime is active and goes off at opening of the driver’s side door.
      3) Whether the headlight switch is in on position or park position, taillights are on.
      4) There is no chime if the engine is running.

      The ton of the Mazda’s chimes are very different to that of the Honda. The Insight’s chime are the same as or very similar to the chimes of my colleague’s Ridgeline and that on GZ’s NEN call.

      • April 24, 2013 at 12:11 PM

        So our primary take-away is that his lights were shining when he left the truck, and they probably turned off automatically at some point thereafter, is that correct?

        • April 24, 2013 at 12:18 PM

          That’s correct that headlights and and taillights were shining when he left his truck and went off 15sec later.
          However, we cannot tell whether the headlights were in on position or park position, the latter being significantly dimmer and would not create the kind of light beam we see in the EP video when the car faces the clubhouse.

          I never thought about checking for high beam mode to see if it makes any difference. It just crossed my mind now.

  46. April 24, 2013 at 4:28 PM

    I’m trying to time the witnesses’ actions. For that, I need your opinion about the bang noise that’s heard 17sec before the gunshot in JenniferW11’s 911 call. I think this is JohnW06 shutting the door to his back porch.

    If I’m right, then it is a good marker as many witnesses saw and/or heard JohnW06 outside. They remember where they were at that exact moment.

    Wits who saw or heard JohnW06: W01, W11, W12, W17 W19
    Wits who missed JohnW06: W02, W03, W05, W13, W14, W16 & W18

    • April 24, 2013 at 8:03 PM

      I doubt it’s John’s door. The back doors at RATL slide rather than swinging open and closed. There’s also a bit too much presence on the sound for it to be that distance i relation to the screams…. I have no idea what that sound is, but there seems to be a similar one a few seconds later, and an even louder one a few seconds after that. That one is probably something in the interior of W11/W20’s unit.

      • April 24, 2013 at 9:43 PM

        I also thought about the noise coming from inside Jennifer’s house. Particularly after Jeremy stated that he was looking for a knife. So, he may have been closing drawers too.

        However, I never thought that the bang could be that of a swinging door. I really picture the sound as coming from a sliding door as they can be slammed too.

        More opinions?

  47. April 24, 2013 at 6:04 PM

    @whonoze

    “Ah, now i get you.”

    Yes you did… finally!

    OK, here goes first video of RATL la nuit by SOTI (aka TS) for whoever hasn’t seen it. I will post the second of 5 mins in following post as twice bitten twice shy… don’t like purgatory! I can’t warn about expletives because Trent is really discreet in these videos so apart from George’s “shit” and one f*****g in a shortish rant at the end of the first and a couple in another short rant at the end of the second, I didn’t hear any more. Anyway whatever his commentary and theories he has some useful info and you are all thinking guys able to make up your own minds! I personally am very fond of TS because he has a good heart and done a lot of work however you see his result. BTW he has changed a lot of his theories over time as new evidence was released.

  48. April 24, 2013 at 6:08 PM

    @whonoze

    “Ah, now i get you.”

    2nd video RATL la nuit by SOTI (aka TS) and so sorry I yet again forgot the forward slash for the end blockquote in the previous!

    • April 24, 2013 at 9:35 PM

      At least SOTI/TS is really passionate about GZ’s case and goes all the way to the bottom of his thoughts. Too bad facts and details can’t stop him. I’m not going to enumerate what’s wrong. It is faster to go through what’s good.

      1) Some images in both videos may be good enough to get an idea of the views at different angles. We should try to extract as much as we can. One I found interesting is how bright the front porch lights can be and how they may explain the snowman. I was also interested in the view of the mailbox kiosk from between the 2 curves.

      2) He shows one more time that time and space can’t fit in the frame of GZ’s narrative. Too bad that he tried fitting the wrong part of the narrative.

      3) He made me recall a question I had at the very beginning of that whole story that was what GZ meant by cutthrough. At that time I was wondering if he meant TTL as it goes through the complex.

      4) He made some comments about the very local topography and how thick grass is. Things that we cannot see from googlemap. We should take advantage of that too.

      • April 24, 2013 at 10:32 PM

        The smaller space than how we see it on the maps and the slope I found very interesting as well as the lighting both at the front of the houses as well as down the dog walk albeit it would always depend on who had their porch lights on (back and front), kitchen lights, etc. etc. And he does give another proof of how long it takes to walk some of the distances, i.e. from Taffe’s to mailboxes and from the T back to TTL.

      • April 25, 2013 at 9:17 AM

        Tchoupi, just to remind you in case it slipped by, in one of SOTI’s videos he talks a lot about Witness 11 but makes the mistake and says Witness 18. He corrects it onscreen with a pink warning box but in case you blinked or turned away you may not have seen it.

        • April 25, 2013 at 11:23 AM

          Thanks. I missed it indeed. To be honest, I quickly stopped listening to what he says as I hate when the witnesses are blamed, and SOTI blames them all. It’s horrible. But, I focused on the images trying to find some good ones.

  49. April 24, 2013 at 10:10 PM

    One thing I see semi-uesful from TS’s odd videos is that at one point he walks from the T back to near the mail kiosk. He’s going the opposite direction that TM seemed to travel but the timing at least can be estimated for a person walking along the same distance.

    • April 25, 2013 at 9:59 AM

      Willi,

      It looks like the snowman was partially caused by front porch lights.

      • April 25, 2013 at 10:31 AM

        Can’t tell from that pic what building it is and taken from what camera position. Can you specify the addresses shown and the direction of the lens?

        • April 25, 2013 at 11:19 AM

          The EP video is the one showing what we called the snowman at some point (http://i.imgur.com/4080F.png). We’ve been debating what it could be for some time. AFAIK, we never came to a firm conclusion.

          This (http://i.imgur.com/520CzBH.png) is a snapshot from SOTI’s 1st movie linked above by gbrbsb.
          The image shows TTL from near the mailbox kiosk awning. Gives an idea of what TM must have seen when on the phone with DeeDee at the mailbox.

          The light spot hanging high is the street lamp we suspected to be the top spot of the snowman. That street lamp is located at the east curve on the south side of the street.

          The bottom row of 6 lamps are the front porch lamps. They are located on each side of each garage door. Two of the 6 lights probably form the bottom of the snowman.

          If it is not that, I really don’t see what else can cause the snowman.

        • April 25, 2013 at 12:37 PM

          Actually I’m wrong. The 6 lights are from 2 different buildings.
          The 4 lights on the right are from the house block on the south of TTL while the 2 lights on the left are from the house block on the east where live John, Jennifer, & W03.

  50. April 25, 2013 at 10:26 AM
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