GPS and contemporaneous phone calls don’t explain what occurred in the missing minutes or who closed a gap or initiated physical struggle. IMO GZ’a credibility is nil even without GPS or phone calls, but piling on can’t hurt. I think a jury will come to a consensus through different paths that convince individual jurors of various reasons why GZ told a pattern of lies that can be extended into the missing minutes. If the prosecution shows beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ substitutes actions of his own for those of the unarmed teen – which he does IMO regarding “doubling back” then a jury will be outsiders in part on that angle. Others may find the Mia-match of holes in the jacket and undershirt to be significant – GZ omits any actions which his hands may have performed except to say he drew his gun and fired. This fits the pattern of his omission of moving his car to chase the teen. This is the WAY he lies and it fits the pattern of known lies. Voice exemplars may or may not convince experts but the emotional weight of the mother testifying she hears her son crying out for his life will certainly be powerful.
Is this “proof” of murder 2? A jury will have to decide based on the judges instructions,
I wonder what the judge will say to the jury in closing?
Agreed, the possibility exists for a “Perry Mason” style breakdown on the witness stand by the defendant but I wouldn’t bet the farm on it. In the first place, he isn’t at all likely to take the stand, ever, even if it means losing the case. He’d only be digging himself a deeper hole IMO come sentencing time if he allowed himself to be proven a liar on cross-examination.
Perhaps however you are referring to a spontaneous outburst in open court, like GZ calling someone a racial epithet or throwing a temper tantrum like a four year old child when things don’t go “his way.” That seems possible too. This guy is so full of pills that he rattles when he walks, I bet.
What I wish I could see/hear most of all is the FINAL “come to Jebus” meeting between GZ and his lawyer. Someone, somewhere, somehow has got to tell this guy he’s going to lose this case, and why. Will they put it politely and say “a jury simply is not going to find your story believable,” or will they come right out and say, “it’s clear you are a poor liar?”
I still think there is a huge chance that he will plead guilty before a trial ever starts. This last week I guess they got an earful from Dee Dee and they are going to have to assess where they stand now.
MO’M is doing a great deal of work to pander to his supporters but I haven’t seen him make any substantial strategic headway yet in the actual legal battle that is material to obtaining a favorable verdict for George.
MO’M’s best bet is to hope a jury isn’t convinced that the state has proven what happened in the missing minutes, and that DESPITE the obvious fact that his client is a proven liar, somehow the jury feels that the state didn’t prove a crime occurred “beyond a reasonable doubt.” It seems rather insane to hang one’s hopes on that however, so I think in the end they are going for the “dog whistle” approach. They want to get one person on the jury who will buy into the gun nutter’s fantasy of a “clean shoot” and refuse to ever see reason. They will play to both the racist element and also to the gun nut element and hope one or the other or both will convince a juror to be a lone holdout who cannot be swayed by his or her fellow jurors. That way they can at least get a hung jury, and GZ can sit around an apartment on bail for another few months.
Whonoze, today I stumbled across the comment that got you banned.
First one minor point then, a more basic comment about what puzzles me about Jeralyn’s application of her own existing or not existing rules.
I am in fact very, very close to you concerning the influence of police, but what may make the difference between us, is that you do not even need to suggest that there was some type of active influencing going on. To me it feels the witnessing of later events already may have been enough. Meaning explicit influence by the officers is not really necessary. That the officers took GZ’s narrative at face value and minor scratches seemed to support it, is already enough. Remember they all oversaw him surrender to police and admit he had shot Trayvon. Questions like: wouldn’t a murderer flee?, may have entered their minds and make them draw their own conclusions in similar ways as the officers did. Although they may well have felt they thought the same.
That said, the rule you supposedly infringed, although interestingly there is no rule against speculation in her “coming soon”/preliminary rules.
Whonoze is being banned. All he does is argue speculative theories of guilt. He’s been warned not to do this, and he was allowed back here to address his video people were talking about. He’s outworn his welcome and will now be leaving us. I will also be removing his most speculative comments.
Strictly that is not exactly what you did, you speculated about the influence of Ayala (Smith) on the early report of witness # 6
Now isn’t this comment that follows shortly after your banishment, From Below, equally speculating about guilt combined with speculation about guilt, which is never treated as speculation if it follows GZ’s narrative;
I don’t think TM was trying to kill GZ or beat the crap out of him. I think a young man that kept getting punished for doing what he wanted to do, or not doing what he was supposed to do (suspensions), enjoyed having control and being dominant. I think TM initially just wanted to teach the guy following him a lesson, but he enjoyed GZ’s reaction too much and he went too far. He succeeded in making GZ very afraid. IMO.
EDIT: I think there are assumptions by some that either GZ or TM set out to kill the other. I don’t think that’s the case. I think such people have very extremist views. I think, somewhat simply put, GZ was someone that TM believed he could assert himself against. Unfortunately TM decided to do it physically and didn’t stop with the first punch or after GZ screamed ‘uncle’ for about a minute.
Couldn’t one argue that while this lady or gentleman, tries heavily to avoid premediation from my perspective in a hilariously “balanced way”, at the same time she offers and explicit dive into Trayvon’s psyche, which is ultimately as speculative as what you wrote. All the while self-presenting her/himself good and righteous. Wouldn’t this strictly infringe against this rule on her blog?
No character attacks on either Trayvon Martin or George Zimmerman (which means no discussion of school suspensions </blockquote:
Interestingly, this rule has never entered the forum where there are only preliminary rules if I understand correctly. So has she gotten tired of the application of her own rules, which allow character attacks on Trayvon to pass easily? Or is little Caesar simply tired to discuss them? And who informed her about you? I am not a friend of informers, but I think there may have been one in this case.
Seems with all his occasional flaws nomatter_mattermind is still the best commenter next to unitron over there. The rest seems to be an iron clad group consensus, she does not seem to want to have disturbed.
If we are going to engage in speculation about Jeralyn Merrit’s thought process, include me out. I banged my head against her group and her for many months, until I too was banned for asking questions no GZ supporter could provide a credible answer for. There’s no rhyme or reason to it that I could ever detect to what she deletes from her blog/ forums. It’s her blog and she deletes things she doesn’t like or can’t refute. The “rules” have little to do with it, although she often cites reasons for what she does. Any systematic analysis would rule that she does not enforce her own rules, nor does she follow them herself on occasion.
She’s a skilled, experienced criminal defense attorney who has drank the Koolaid since 1974, meaning she’s always going to stick up for the defendant, any defendant and ESPECIALLY the clearly guilty ones. That’s what she has dedicated her life to.
Some of you may not know this, but she worked for over a year defending Timothy McViegh, the Oklahoma City bomber and America’s worst domestic terrorist. She’s a person of strong principals and some of those principals seem to me to paint her as a libertarian extremist. She has a concealed carry permit and advocates for the reform of marijuana laws, which have indeed been rolled back in her home state of Colorado. She’s a progressive on many social issues and was appointed to high position in the Innocence Project, a very worthy anti-death penalty advocate group who do great work.
She hates me, but I kinda admire her, in the similar way that I admire Mark O’Mara. They both operate in a post-modern landscape where they know that one can manufacture consent with enough hot air. It’s not operating from a basis of reality, instead it attempts to create “reality” through sheer force of will and determination. This is the sort of bullshit that got us into a war with Iraq – if you repeat something often enough, a majority of half-intrerested parties will assume it is the truth.
People who “get things done” often bend the rules and see the truth as slant. Lyndon Johnson and Abraham Lincoln come to mind as politicians who “did the wrong thing for the right reasons” on many occasions. But there is another way to look at these things, and that is that these people are qualifying their dishonest actions by saying “the ends justify the means.”
Either we live in a nation of laws or we don’t. I like to hope that we do, but the fact that several known war criminals from the last presidential administration are not in prison after being brought to justice makes me think that we live in a land where the squeaky wheel gets the grease. And laws only apply to the powerless, seldom the powerful. I’ll get off the soapbox here but if I had to hazard a guess I’d say JM is simply a biased gun lover who took a stand early on in this case and can’t let go now without losing face.
We are close Willis, very close, at least what surfaced in your response is close to what this case makes me circle around, socialogical, psycholgical, racial, media studies and the larger Zeitgeist. …
If you don’t mind that people in foreign countries are bombed for no good reason beyond the fact that you are more powerful, why should you care if someone shoots a juvenile on your home ground. Bad luck. That’s about it. The powerful the ones without power a closed system. Not a word about the Iraq war on her blog before 2007, I think.
Xena linked to a symposium on the Trayvon Martin case.at the University of Florida. The above topic was addressed by Faye V. Harrison.(last speaker on the bottom of the page. But there was a multitude of other interesting contribution. And I was reminded of my debate with unison when I found myself on the mainly staff questions concerning Charles Blow’s speech at the end. The golden rule: facts are sacred, while comment is free, were always only part of the puzzle. Just as these questioners, starting with Michael Leslie, I was hunting for research about: Objectivity. A golden Cow that always hid power and interest beneath the news pyramid system, as we call the most important things first than specifics towards the end where people stop to read.
Yes, manufacturing consent was on my mind too concerning her, that’s why I call her “little Caesar” for her enforcement of her own perspective on the case. Enforced by punishing visibly punishing dissenters so the rest learns to stay within limits. Whiffs of totalitarianism.
She hates me, but I kinda admire her, in the similar way that I admire Mark O’Mara.
At one point, I thought I hated her, but the fascination for her as a object of study triumphed. Besides when my adrenaline comes down cannot hate any longer anyway. I surely can’t say, I admire her. The furthest I would go is that I respect her methodical qualities. But once I noticed them, they dissipated for the most part.
I discovered her when I studied extensively the burglary reports versus GZ’s 911 call, and had reached the conclusion that GZ’s shiny media image, that is that he had helped to arrest burglars and prevented crimes were completely wrong. There was strictly no correlation between his calls and the burglary reports. None.
I then looked if anyone had noticed and found this: Searching for Burgess + George Zimmerman. That’s how I found her.
Take a look at the report of a prior burglary on Feb. 7, 2012, just three weeks before the shooting of Trayvon Martin, where a suspect, Emanuel Burgess, initially got away.
Zimmerman was not the one who reported this burglary. The victim reported it, and two witnesses provided descriptions of the suspect. The victim said her home on Retreat View Circle had been broken into and her MacPro stolen. One of the witnesses who gave a description said he thought the person he had seen loitering at the victims’ house had also stolen his bicycle.
Now if you notice that someone strictly has the ability to use his head, but to a large extend suppresses it to streamline his or her audience to a outlook chosen before, I call that an ideolog. It makes you wonder why.
Remember her favorite slogan is media manipulation. So she discovered a media manipulation but dropped it silently? That is the type of people I call ideologues. Or Machiavellians, as you suggest, the ends justify the means. I am very sorry, I cannot admire such people. But yes, I have a basic very German fascination for the type. …
I have to finish something, where I definitively have to be more careful, but this caught my eyes.
Correction: when I found myself on the [side of] mainly staff questions concerning after Charles Blow’s speech at the end [starting with Michael Leslie]
Charles Blow’s cultural critique, is a stereotype. Whenever you had new media over the centuries, you had these decline of culture voices warning of abysmal consequences, no matter if film or radio or mass press. I was reminded of all these theoreticians. He has not even tried to grasp the real sources. Yes, I was slightly disappointed concerning his speech.
The media link does not work as fine anymore. No more screen for the speakers only. In any case Charles Blow’s speech starts at: 02:53:** if you like to leave out his introduction.
willis, I missed my main point in correction or attempts at shortening.
I found the little JM item I choose of special interest because Jeralyn is a proponent of the supposed deceiving media campaign by Benjamin Crump and partners. Now this little item would shine a light on media misrepresentation or pro-Zimmerman image creation as the “successful crime fighter”, which was an early cornerstone for his supporters, after all.
Jeralyn is a proponent of the evil misleading media campaign by Benjamin Crump. So that was evil, not that she states that directly, but this deception is pure?
I’ll shut up about her now, but I sure will continue to study her. Unfortunately she didn’t do me the favor and publish her announced 15 pages about the ABC audio yet.
Oh don’t worry. I’m as fascinated as anyone at her labyrinth of a mind, and her hypocritical reasoning. But it’s sort of an endless and pointless topic ain’t it?
I’m waiting for the day the GZ is found guilty. That’s when I’ll be interested in what she has to say.
The ABC clip is kinda fascinating to me too since one possible narrative one COULD argue about “Crump coached Dee Dee on a separate occasion” involves the concept of the car-to-pedestrian chase. But she’ll never use THAT as an example, even though it could be argues that they both speak of it in terms that could be construed as “already familiar territory.”
I tried watching that…. the academicians were boring. Sorry to be blunt but that guy in the white jacket’s understanding of Focoult wasn’t exactly blowing me away. I gave up long before Charles Blow, who has only thus far impressed me with his anger, not his intellect.
@Whonoze. On Leatherman’s thread, I mentioned having from a reliable source about a State witness with a criminal background. It’s Witness12, the wife of Jon who took the photo of the back of GZ’s head. She has an arrest for failing to appear on a charge of driving on a suspended license. My source reminded me also that we should not forget that Frank Taaffe has an arrest record also.
Thanks Xena. I don’t know how Rene Stutzman can think this hurts the prosecution, since W12 is hardly a significant witness. Failing to appear on a traffic warrant, what a miscreant! 🙂
@whonoze. I listened to the hearing again when the attorney for FDLE addressed the court. He said that a witness was arrested, but the charges were dismissed. So, if that’s Witness 12, it’s nothing to make headlines about.
Wouldn’t we all love to get our hands on this information?
Any and all data in the State’s posession or the State has received regarding any downloads from any phone or phone number connected to George Zimmerman or his wife Shellie Zimmerman or any information that the law enforcement has received, retrieved or investigated concerning George Zimmerman’s phone, phones and or phone numbers.
Didn’t they need to know what the state knew almost a year ago?
It is possible that the State has gps records for both GZ and Trayvon. Imagine that. State could just make an animation of GZ following Trayvon, with DD as the narrator.
“State could just make an animation of GZ following Trayvon, with DD as the narrator.”
Don’t we all wish… but I wouldn’t hold your breath!
I think their wanting the info now and not a year ago may be: a) the State could have more now than back then
b) Deposing DD with her running commentary of Trayvon’s route was a jolt and they want to see if the State could have any GPS or other evidence that backs her up.
c) Until recently they appeared to be going for an SYG, Self Defence or Immunity trial so MAY not have needed it
amsterdam1234
March 27, 2013 at 10:07 AM
Why would they want to wait until the state knows more? That doesn’t make sense. I assumed there was no GPS data, because I would’ve expected an immunity hearing or a plea bargain a long time ago.
Mom didn’t get involved until April last year. They can’t have complete insight about what was on that phone unless they got the data from the state. If they didn’t get it until know, they have no clue about what they may face during trial at this time.
It maybe nothing or it may be very incriminating. Fact is, their request shows they don’t have a clue, and that is bad news for GZ.
wassointeresting
March 27, 2013 at 10:48 AM
Seems like another case of the defense wanting the prosecution to connect the dots for them.
I don’t think the defense wanted to know, what really happened, not a year ago, not a month ago, not today and certainly not tomorrow. Because they already know. Since the odds are that one of the myriad versions GZ has told MOM, one of them has got to be somewhat close to the truth. While there is no version that explains the evidence and witness testimony, that also looks anything like an acceptable defense.
MOM has been at a loss for things to do to fill the long wait until conviction. Poor MOM, where he originally thought that, for once in his miserable life, he had finally grabbed “the brass ring”, only to discover himself locked in a ring of slime, with a toxic defendant too boot.
The expertise of an experienced, tried and true, criminal defense lawyer, would have allowed him to preserve his reputation and even burnish it as a skilled professional. Instead he chose to play it no different than a divorce court lawyer would have (as we’ve learned from our fellow students familiar with such fare) and went on a buck chasing trip, down the road to Gehenna!
The fact that it’s this late in the game, perhaps GZ was not completely honest with his counsel (surprise anyone?) regarding his and Shellie’s communications that night. Either he volunteered something incriminating recently or the defense team realized there’s something amiss, so as unitron said, they have to find out what the state knows or doesn’t know, and perhaps find out what their client isn’t telling them.
BINGO, WSI. I agree that the defense attorney Mark O’Mara knows that George isn’t completely forthcoming with him, and doesn’t want to be BLINDSIDED at trial with things that the state can safely assume it need NOT provide as discovery since the defendant should be telling his lawyer about anyway. Things like who he communicated with on his phone that evening, both before, during and after the incident.
I’ve always figured the “missing minutes” corresponded with a time frame where George had opportunity to make another call to a friend/ ally / tipoff person / accomplice, etc. It’s pure speculation to wonder about this, but hey, it’s there to wonder about.
George probably CAN’T do it, and hasn’t been asked by his lawyer to tell him the whole truth. Defense attorneys play a little game with guilty clients. They ask, “what can you tell me to help me win this case for you?” They do NOT ask, “tell me what you did and I’ll see how we can obscure, obfuscate and omit certain parts and how I can lie for you in open court.”
But they can and do ask their client,” what do you think the prosecution is going to be able to prove? What do you know about that might come up to surprise ME at court?” And sadly, they are at this point at the mercy quite often of well, let’s face it, lying criminals who are not as smart as the people who will be doing the majority of the speaking in court.
I discount the GPS data ever proving anything for anyone. That’s just my hunch. But the who called who when about what and were there any texts messages that might come into play at trial is very very important.
George is so stupid he may have tried to delete things that could be retrieved and not realize, and MOM has to assume he’s not guaranteed to be getting the truth from his client.
Of course I want to know who he called or tired to call when the bloody head photo was taken, and I suspect he may have had some communication before and during the altercation as well that is material to the case.
And I can’t wait to find out.
cheers, all and glad to see some activity here again after a lull.
wassointeresting
March 27, 2013 at 2:25 PM
This talk of communications that night reminded me of something. As far as we know, it was picture-taking cellphone Jon (witness 13?) who called Shellie that night right? Now I know Osterman doesn’t have the most reliable facts, but in his book, the following was what Shellie told him when she first called him after the shooting: “A neighbor called to let me know that George was involved in a shooting, but she said that George is okay. He is sitting in the back of a police car, but she could see George and it looks like he is okay.”
It’s possible that he mixed up the gender, but it sounds like some other female witness who was close enough called Shellie.
None of the witnesses that we know of admitted to knowing the Zimmermans or knowing them that well. So who would have known GZ and known Shellie well enough to have HER cell phone number (because she was supposedly at her dad’s house and not at home when it happened, excluding the possibility that someone could have just reached her by calling the number on the neighborhood watch flyer).
amsterdam1234
March 27, 2013 at 2:42 PM
@wsi
Is it possible that the she is Shellie?
wassointeresting
March 27, 2013 at 3:02 PM
No, the “she” is someone who supposedly called Shellie.
Well the original person asked by GZ to call Shellie was a HE, not a SHE. And this was while they were standing around at the scene.
So anyone seeing GZ “alright in the back of the police car” must have been a LATER caller.
Or MO was making it up, to explain away why they were not terribly worried GZ was injured, without having to admit they “knew” he was the actual shooter.
But somewhere didn’t he say Shellie called to say someone had called her that “GZ had shot someone else”???
wassointeresting
March 28, 2013 at 12:44 PM
IIRC, the “shot someone else” was a comment either on Dr. Phil’s show or on that sit-down interview with a local news station that MO did.
@WSI
Very good points to take on board, and, no, no surprise at all GZ wasn’t honest with MOM. But not merely because he’s a manipulative, scheming and/or compulsive liar, rather, and it goes with all the usual caveats (i.e. IANAL, IIAC, IMBW, IIRC etc.), as officer’s of the court, I believe council’s are not permitted to directly lie and/or mislead the court, so GZ has to be careful otherwise MOM may find it difficult to keep MOM.
That said, according to an interesting paper by Michael Asimow and Richard Weisberg; “When the Lawyer Knows the Client is Guilty” (links below), lawyers (US ones not those in the UK) have ways of getting around it via either “a weak or strong adversarial approach” of which the following struck me as very curious:
A compromise solution (approved in many states including California) allows the client to testify in narrative (without the usual questions and answers). The lawyer should not refer to the client’s perjured testimony in closing argument. This method of presentation tips off the judge and prosecutor to what is going on, but it is unclear what the jury will make of it.
… It seems less problematic than withdrawal or disclosure to the judge and does less damage to the justice system in the event that the lawyer is wrong about whether the client is lying. It allows the judge, during sentencing, to take account of the probablyperjured testimony. Yet this approach preserves the client’s right to tell the story as the client sees it, while minimizing the chance that the jury will acquit a guilty person.
Note the bit about “tips of the prosecutor and the judge”, so if per very small chance GZ does take the stand and simply recites his narrative and no cross from MOM, we can consider ourselves tipped off like the Judge!
(For anyone interested there are two papers bearing the same name, a shorter version by Asimow alone and a longer version by Asimow and Weisberg)
Was wondering why this blog was so silent, then realized I forgot to follow (my lurking over at the CTH all these months must have zapped a few too many brain cells…..)
Crump filed a reply to the second motion asking the court to allow the defense to depose him now that, you know, “Dee Dee lied” and it says the obvious things, like, where do you get off asking for the same thing the judge already ruled against and why don’t you go ahead and finish deposing the witness #8 and quit wasting the time of the court.
It also appears there was a dust-up over the attempt to video tape Dee Dee at her deposition. Apparently the defense is crying to the court about that one, too.
The defense showed up with a video crew at the scheduled meeting at FDLE and BDLR and company refused to allow the deposition to be taped on motion picture/ video and wanted to go forward using audio recording only. The defense claims they had given advance notice, and even tried to CALL the judge for a summary decision on the matter but in the end, after four hours of stalemate, they went ahead and started a deposition using audio recording only. Then quickly the time allotted ran out, and thats why there is a squabble about needed a “second deposition” scheduled.
It warms my heart to know that BDLR stuck up for w8 and put his foot down on the possible intimidation factor inherent in wanting to videotape her face.
“It warms my heart to know that BDLR stuck up for w8 and put his foot down on the possible intimidation factor inherent in wanting to videotape her face.”
If/when she testifies in open court, will she be allowed to wear a mask?
@ unitron, sarcasm aside, I think a more appropriate question to ask would be “Would all of the witnesses who did not willingly speak on camera to the media, and therefore have had their identities protected until now (which means names redacted and their likeness not recorded), be allowed to stay off camera during the trial?”
onlyiamunitron
March 27, 2013 at 2:52 PM
““Would all of the witnesses who did not willingly speak on camera to the media, and therefore have had their identities protected until now (which means names redacted and their likeness not recorded), be allowed to stay off camera during the trial?””
Ask someone who knows how Florida runs its courts, because I couldn’t even tell you the answer to that for my own state.
The question about the mask, however, related to being seen by the people in the courtroom, not by a video camera, because a video of the deposition would only have been seen by people who would have seen her in person at the deposition anyway, unless Bernie really wants to accuse the defense of intending to leak her picture to outsiders.
In general, however, I would think that once a witness takes the stand in this trial their name, at least, would become a matter of public record, barring unusual circumstances.
I do remember the entire Zimmerman clan testifying by telephone during the first bond hearing. Prosecution was more than accomodating to the familie’s wishes to keep their faces out of the media.
Were you as outraged then as you are now?
wassointeresting
March 27, 2013 at 2:41 PM
It’s rather ridiculous isn’t it that the “lie” that DeeDee told was originally to Sabrina for whatever reason we don’t know. Sabrina didn’t really know her (just began hearing her name around Christmas) or the extent of her relationship with her son. Teenagers’ relationships are complex. I told a partial lie this weekend to my friends in order to get out of going to a get-together because I was just uncomfortable seeing some of the other people that were gonna be there. Does that make me a total liar? I should hope not. It’s Mr. Crump’s gaffe for making the hospital story part of the drama, and making DeeDee into TM’s puppy love girlfriend, when she herself did not represent herself that way at all. But does any of this matter? Nope.
onlyiamunitron
March 27, 2013 at 2:59 PM
“Does that make me a total liar?”
If you were being deposed under oath in connection to a murder trial, that suggestion, or questions about your veracity in general, might come up where ordinarily they wouldn’t.
unitron
amsterdam1234
March 27, 2013 at 2:53 PM
I think it is not relevant to the case. Defense uses it to pump up their base. Media likes it, because it gives them something to talk about without having to do real journalistic work.
I love it that MOM had to sent his production team home. It may very well have been DD and her counsel who refused to have her deposition filmed. Good for her. I hope GZ will have to pay that bill.
onlyiamunitron
March 27, 2013 at 3:01 PM
“It may very well have been DD and her counsel who refused to have her deposition filmed.”
And O’Mara just decided to tell the judge it was de la Ronda instead?
That seems rather unlikely.
unitron
onlyiamunitron
March 27, 2013 at 2:54 PM
Who said anything about being outraged?
unitron
amsterdam1234
March 27, 2013 at 2:55 PM
I did. I smell faux outrage.
onlyiamunitron
March 27, 2013 at 3:03 PM
“I did.”
Okay, if you want to be outraged, you just go right ahead.
Apparently the Outhouse mob were boasting they knew who the cameraman was going to be.
There was a big risk of the tape being leaked to circles that would use it to try identifying her, for the purpose of intimidation.
Once she’s on the stand and giving her evidence, it is way too late to try and intimidate her out of doing so. By then it’s safe to show her face. (Of course I’d not blame her if she wore a wig and heavy makeup and tinted glasses).
onlyiamunitron
March 28, 2013 at 11:33 AM
Now you’ve got me picturing her wearing Groucho glasses.
MOM knew in advance that without anything in place, either a court ruling or an agreement, there is no chance he’d get his wish. He should have moved to resolve those issues sooner, instead he wasted his own precious time, trying to obtain some permission that he wasn’t already entitled to. BDLR has no reason to be concerned about how MOM handles solving the problems that face him. But, if MOM attempts to obtain things he has no right to, BDLR is right to stand his ground and refuse, most especially when he has a sensitive witness who would be troubled by what MOM intended to do. MOM is revealing himself to be an ogre.
“It may very well have been DD and her counsel who refused to have her deposition filmed.”
amsterdam
“And O’Mara just decided to tell the judge it was de la Ronda instead?
That seems rather unlikely.”
unitron
I’m not sure it even matters but in questions like this one has to look at there the information is coming from. In this case I THINK it was from Mark O’Mara to the Orlando Sentinel’s whats-her-name who is “covering the case” aka printing stories seemingly favorable to the defense due to the fact that the defense is granting interviews and sending out press releases whereas the prosecution has tried for the most part to keep a tight lid on their comments to the press, mostly as policy in order to shield their trial strategy from the defense, as is standard practice for opposing lawyers in a criminal case.
Assuming MOM even KNEW who was objecting to the deposition being videotaped – and most likely it was EVERYONE in the building besides MOM, he wouldn’t have as much to possibly gain by saying the teenage witness was the one who didn’t want her identity in the form of her face (and likely body type, height, hair style and color, etc) to be in the hands of the defense. MOM gets potential “brownie points” from his supporters and $$$ donors by painting the dust-up as him vs the big bad BDLR, not him beating up on a young teen.
Also we are making the assumption that the reporter who wrote the story and her editor/s got the attribution right in the first place or simply decided to take a partial understanding of the fractious deposition and portray it as MOM vs BDLR having heard the story from a third party, or only partially or tangentially from MOM, etc using a “cut out” deliberately to obfuscate the exact mature of the exchange. I speculate that MOM wouldn’t have had ANY access to DD until he agreed to the terms of audio only, and communicated with her via BDLR. So the objection was “from” BDLR but could have been from DD, clearly and yet MOM was free to say it however he wanted.
Keeping up the pressure and hoping that the prosecution or the judge makes a legal error that can help him win an appeal or a new trial, etc is clearly part of the defense strategy. Filing motion after motion can be a way to play the legal lottery and hope that eventually there is a mistake he can exploit somehow.
Once again DD seems to describe the car-to-pedestrian chase in the letter, without fully explaining the circumstances and significance but to me that only further proves her veracity.
Lots to ponder here, including the notes from BDLR included in same PFD where he declines to mention specifically the car-to-pedestrian chase. This disturbs me to no end. He also confirms that “Dee Dee” is the girl’s OWN nickname and not just a random pseudonym, further jeopardizing her secret identity by handing a clue to those who want to “dox” her.
Regarding the call or calls allegedly informing Shellie of the shooting: GZ has a phone to his ear in the bloody head photo. Yet Shellie hears from a third party, we are told.
So many possibilities here. One is that GZ called her and only had time to say “go move the truck NOW” but hadn’t yet told her about the shooting. Perhaps his call was to someone else. We just don’t know.
If Ofc Tim Smith had his flashers on by the time he reached the vicinity of the shooting and his car was on RVC, maybe GZ saw the flashes of light from between the buildings south of him and knew he only had time for one short conversation.
But the overall point here is that MOM may not have heard the truth from GZ and that’s what he’s worried about regarding the cell phone records. I think we can all agree that’s a possibility to consider.
In a three sentence ruling, Judge Nelson just issued an order denying the prosecution’s second motion to depose Ben Crump.
Orlando sentinel has the report. If the defense is trying to get a reaction out of the judge, so that she will do something that can be brought up on appeal, or in a motion to have her recused, they struck out completely here.
Whoa, did you guys read DeeDee’s written letter to Sabrina on March 19? (attached to BDLR’s rather hilarious response to the defense). She says that TM decided to walk thru ANOTHER COMPLEX. So perhaps he did cut through the adjacent apartment complex to get into RATL?
The State might have looked into the possibility of Trayvon being followed between the time he left the 7-Eleven and entered the Retreat at Twin Lakes. Zimmerman’s phone records may have led them to acquire the M&I Bank video. I am still very curious about that video and whether the man seen on it at around 6:38 p.m. is Osterman.
The thing is, that bank is on the other side of TRATL from the 7-Eleven, so I’m not sure its cameras showed much of relevance except when it was raining how much.
Maybe the state grabbed it before they knew Trayvon’s direction of travel, and were stuck with having to make it part of the “official” body of evidence.
Zimmerman’s phone records might show that his phone and Osterman’s phone were in contact during that time, but there’s no way to prove what was discussed.
I’m surprised there seems to be no surveillance camera footage from the area between the 7-Eleven and TRATL showing Martin walking past.
unitron
wassointeresting
March 29, 2013 at 2:30 AM
I’ve always thought that the only thing that the bank surveillance cameras were good for was to show when it started and stopped raining.
Yes, but not recently, and at the time I put more effort into figuring out that the other person of interest was not Shellie than I did worrying about Osterman.
Many people thought the security guy seen leaving with GZ from jail and the guy in the bank video looked alike. However, since Osterman went on TV, it’s been obvious that neither of those people were Osterman. He looks very different, except for the bald head.
The guy accompanying GZ when he left jail on bond is Osterman. Yes, when he went on Dr. Phil’s to promote his book, Osterman had lost weight, so he looked a little different. There is a side-by-side of Osterman’s photo on Sondra’s Facebook with a still of the M&I Bank video, and there is definitely a resemblance, although I cannot say for certain that they are the same person.
wassointeresting
March 29, 2013 at 3:19 AM
“The guy accompanying GZ when he left jail on bond is Osterman.”
I still have to disagree with that. They paid a security company beaucoup bucks to take GZ from jail. Osterman at the time was keeping mum so I don’t think he’d have walked out to where there were going to be cameras. Also, weight doesn’t change the shape of your nose. (remove spaces from the links below). In the first link, you see the shot of the guy leaving jail with GZ. The 2nd link is Osterman’s interview where you see his face from the same angle. Also, I think their eye colors are different too.
h t t p://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2173340/Revealed-The-ex-cop-best-friend-taught-George-Zimmerman-shoot-hid-weeks-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-accompanies-police-interrogation.html
my original (rough and blurry) screenshots taken from the relevant videos.
MO did look a lot slimmer on Dr. Phil, and was dressed up which also looks slimming. In his Facebook pix he looked about the weight in these two vids^^^ and wore a similar loose T-shirt.
Whoa, maybe things are even worse than we figured. What if Trayvon does come in by FT’s place? Then TM is very late getting back from the store, taking nearly 25 minutes for a less than 13 minute walk. Meaning he’d have had to shelter somewhere along the way.
But then, he comes through the cut through near Taaffe’s and GZ drives past him, circles back and drives behind him all the way to the mail shed. Then this would be the “long tail” that GZ tries to cover up with a lie about parking at the clubhouse. It also explains why TM would be so certain that he was being followed so soon. So that after he leaves the mail shed, GZ mounts a 2nd “long tali” car to pedestrian chase.
That still doesn’t make things coincidental as GZ wants us to believe, since he wasn’t on his way to go shopping, otherwise, his routine dictates, his wife would be with him, or planning to meet him at the store. But there was no money for shopping, his cards were maxxed out and all he had was two quarters. So, some one notified him to come out on the hunt, trouble is that, if this scenario is true, then TM was followed from the 711. Easily accomplished by those 3 stooges who met him at the store. They were traveling by car.
While I see what you are saying Lonnie, I want to clarify that the term I coined, “the long tail” refers not to GZ following TM with his car specifically, but to the idea that TM likely had a steady rate of speed while walking, and that that speed can be calculated variously by making the assumption based on GZ’s and NEN call taker’s words that TM is “near the clubhouse now?”/ “yeah, now he’s walking towards me”
Short version: please don’t say long tail when you mean car-to-pedestrian chase, lest we get confused.
If we assume GZ was where he marked a map (and quickly crossed it out for a second position) then we have two possibilities – one is the most likely, and the one that helps reconcile his inconsistencies and contradictions – the firts position, that seems to put TM at the mail kiosk (as Dee Dee claims) and GZ at or near the first bend in TTL (as the clubhouse video seems to show.)
Now, if we plot the rate of the teen’s walking speed and assume that the “these axxholes always get away” is the general time that GZ’s car is passed by, then we have another 30 seconds of TM likey walking at a similar speed since after than time GZ exclaims the teen is running, and leaves the car to follow.
Logic, evidence and common sense say to me that GZ was at the first bend when the comment was made “now he’s walking towards me” and that the teen was near the cut thru/ second bend when he took off running. Why did he take off running? Because GZ MOVED his car to the second position, the one he readily admits to and claims in his “re-creation” walk thru. And in so doing, he stalked the teen and frightened him into running off the roadway where he hoped a car wouldn’t go. GZ’s also admitted moving his car DURING the NEN call, albeit in a false and misleading manner, claiming he was at the clubhouse parking lot and DIRECTED to move. This entire line of his false narrative is meant to obscure, obfuscate and omit the car to pedestrian chase. He knows it makes him the aggressor, and so he had to invent a way to say it never happened. Too bad for him that what he claims happened is impossible to reconcile with the NEN call recording.
Okay now finally we get to what I call “the long tail,” which refers to where Trayvon would have been had GZ actually been in his “final” position down by the curt thru when TM left being “near the clubhouse” or the mail kiosk – the two are actually interchangeable for the purposes of this exercise, given GZ’s sightlines. Recall that at least in ONE proxy version, this is what Taffe claims he knows happened “According to George.” Here, in testing this theory if you plot the RATE that TM would have to travel to pass GZ’s “never moved behind the teen” car, and then continue to plot the path for the NEXT 30 seconds, the teen would be long gone at the point in time that GZ claims to see him running. HAd hte teen gone into the cut thru, he’s be nearly to RVC if not all the way there. HAd he gone done TTL on the pavement, he’d be way around the bend and probably out of GZ’s sightline as well. This impossible path is what I call “the long tail,” it’s the speculative line that shows the teen couldn’t have been near the clubhouse with GZ already by the cut thru, since he’d be walking so fast that he would have disappeared from view by the time GZ told the NEN call taker he was running.
Also bolstering this timing is the distance from the second GZ position (the one he claims in the re-nactment) to the sidewalk T, which seems to fit the timing of GZ’s fast walk/ jog where we hear the wind noise ending around the moment of “he ran.” Were GZ parked ALWAYS by the mail kiosk, and had never moved, he would not have had time to reach the cut thru T intersection unless he can run very very fast and not make noise that sounds like that.
Instead of “the long tail” I suggest you stick to what I call “the car to pedestrian chase.”
I agree that we now have to CONSIDER the idea that GZ did spot TM near the FT shortcut but I am not yet convinced that this happened. But certainly one explanation of the car/s looping back and forth on RVC could be that GZ was surveilling the teen as he walked from near FT’s to the mail kiosk, and GZ was trying to pretend he was not creeping behind but instead made multiple passes as the teen walked. This is of course a thin ruse and likely unnerved the teen quickly if it indeed is what happened.
It makes much more sense that GZ would be circling as shown in the cctv analysis, around Trayvon’s progress, than that he could somehow miss Trayvon in the mail shed and would leave then get called back.
But what this shows is that GZ didn’t spot Trayvon coming through the cut through, but after he’d already come out on the street and therefore better exposed to view. GZ is trying to fill the time and make Trayvon seem more thuggish, by placing him in the cut through and therefore near Taaffe’s house, so he’d have a house to look in. At the same time he’s making light of his following as “hardly noticeable” rather than so gross as to be fear inducing.
Of course, buh_lack teens are not supposed to be surprised or frightened by having white males follow them in cars in the dark. They’re supposed to expect it and accept it, because the guy following them is merely a crime fighter. Some crime fighter GZ is, first crack out of the box and he’s killed a harmless law abiding child. I shudder to think of what a career in crime fighting would result in.
onlyiamunitron
March 29, 2013 at 2:41 PM
“…that seems to put TM at the mail kiosk (as Dee Dee claims)…”
She puts him near some mail boxes, but not necessarily the ones in TRATL.
unitron
wassointeresting
March 29, 2013 at 1:52 PM
“But there was no money for shopping, his cards were maxxed out and all he had was two quarters.”
This has always kinda bugged me because I’m not sure if we know for sure that he didn’t have his wallet with him. I would LOVE, LOVE LOVE to know that for sure because that would totally debunk his shopping story. But we have to be careful in how we interpret the evidence. I know the quarters were listed in evidence because it came out of his jacket. However, they didn’t list his phone on any document either, because I assumed they gave it back to him when he left the cop shop, so they would have given his wallet back as well.
He did have his wallet with him, they noted that’s where they found his ccwp. No mention of any money, my guess is they would have mentioned money found there, just like they did for the two quarters in a baggie found in his jacket. Police worry about money since they’re often accused of stealing it, so it makes them antsy and so they note it when it turns up.
Also, if you’re going to do enough shopping to do cooking for the week, wouldn’t some kind of shopping list be in order? I often find I need a list for just day shopping, because it’s so easy to get distracted in store and totally forget the main item you came to get.
How many time does one go to the store for say mayonnaise and come home with everything but?
@Lonnie Starr. IDK, but the more I think about it and look at things such as the clubhouse videos, the more I’m convinced that someone was following Trayvon before he entered the R@TL.
Also the more I think about it, there is possibility that GZ picked up the following once Trayvon entered the R@TL. Someone else, such as Osterman, may have conducted the following outside of the gated community.
The timeline should indicate that TM needs to be followed, since, otherwise, there’s no way to be sure that things will line up.
The “3 Stooges” at 711 introduce a 7 minute delay on TM’s return trip. They have a car, so they could even have followed him, by just staying behind, parking on the shoulder and watched Trayvon’s progress. They could also have called Osterman, GZ or anyone else to alert them to Trayvon’s progress. That seems much more likely than GZ suddenly leaving home after Sunset, to go on patrol in the rain (there being no real shopping trip), in the 5 minute window needed to capture sight of Trayvon. Less, to know were to go to find him to boot!
onlyiamunitron
March 30, 2013 at 11:50 AM
Is that timeline your work?
It wouldn’t accept my WordPress.com identity to point out that it has Trayvon’s weight 3 lbs. lighter than at autopsy.
Errr… That’s google’s blogger. I chose blogger because every post gets a reply button, so that makes for better threads. Trouble is there’s so few posts it hardly matters much. heeheehee. Oh, today I’ll be breaking my 10th k viewer. applause!
onlyiamunitron
March 31, 2013 at 6:58 PM
Well, it offered to let me use my WordPress.com “identity”, and when I tried it all went sideways somehow, so I just played the odds and blamed WordPress.
The “3 Stooges” at 711 introduce a 7 minute delay on TM’s return trip. They have a car, so they could even have followed him, by just staying behind, parking on the shoulder and watched Trayvon’s progress.
Speculation, but maybe the 3 Stooges offered to give Trayvon a ride home, and after they came out of the 7-Eleven, said they were going somewhere else, inviting Trayvon to come along. Trayvon wanted to go home so started his walk.
I don’t have a handle on it, but I do think that the 3 Stooges are connected to GZ. As you know, since first hearing about GZ and NW, I suspected he was using it as a cover-up for burglaries. Osterman, being GZ’s mentor, is a con artist, wanting the dealer to pay a “finder’s fee” to a friend in order for Osterman to return the car stolen by the man who hired him as a security guard.
Ride offer makes good sense. And I’d feel inclined to accept it, except for one little wrinkle, these guys are hiding their faces while they’re in the store. That’s an artifact that says they’re up to nothing good. It also says that they’re strangers, that Trayvon isn’t bonded enough to come back into the store with them. So, I have to doubt he’d feel safe getting into a car with them, coupled with them hiding their faces in the store, making them unlikely to want an uninitiated tag along aboard.
They appear to be the types Trayvon would have been warned to watch out for. And… Didn’t he tell DD that he wished his mother was there, as he was making his way to the store? Kind of tells you that Trayvon wasn’t traveling in the happiest of moods at the least. At worst, he held some dread of what was up ahead for some reason. Just as a person would if they’d been given some not-quite-so-sensible reason to meet up, but yet they couldn’t easily refuse.
So, hold on to those suspicions that GZ might have been working with thieves. There’s something about this store encounter that I find troubling. Of course, we may never know, but then again, maybe something will break.
@Lonnie Starr. Until you mentioned that 2 of the guys kept their faces hidden, I had not noticed that. Forgive my seeing in parts, but I now suspect that the 3 stooges engaged Trayvon because they were suppose to meet someone there and wanted to know whether Trayvon saw or knew the person.
So, hold on to those suspicions that GZ might have been working with thieves. There’s something about this store encounter that I find troubling. Of course, we may never know, but then again, maybe something will break.
Here is what I see but through a glass darkly. Something went wrong with the NW cover-up. GZ threw Burgess under the bus. His gang threatened to spill the beans on him unless GZ found a fall-guy. He was given a certain number of days to achieve that but missed his deadline. Someone beat GZ badly that weekend, causing his head boo-boo’s and the scratches on his face with the exception of the nose. The scratches had already scalped when the pics were taken in the police station. A close-up of his head boo-boo’s on Dave’s blog shows that the head boo-boo’s have scalps around the edges.
GZ’s NEN phone call was a cop setup. Based on GZ’s description of Trayvon’s physical movements, had Smith arrived and seen Trayvon alone, he would have suspected him to be armed. GZ was to intimidate Trayvon so he could shoot him at his vehicle, or Trayvon was suppose to have been killed by the SPD officer. The 3 Stooges were suppose to say “Yeah, that’s the guy who had us stealing for him.” The SPD was then suppose to investigate Trayvon, keeping their eyes off GZ and his gang.
But Trayvon ran. That blew GZ’s plan. And, Trayvon was the wrong Black teen. GZ shot “somebody else” — not a thug — not a Goon — not a kid with a criminal background.
His gang was still going to make good on their threat, so GZ had to pack up and move out after leaving the police station. He could not chance having the police come to his house and find stolen property — maybe even drugs.
The first few times I looked at that 711 cctv tape I was so focused on what Trayvon was doing, I didn’t notice that the other guys were keeping their faces covered. Since they weren’t there doing that, because they were intending to rob the 711, the only other reason they could have, for hiding their faces is, they didn’t want to be associated with Trayvon. That, in turn, means they expected that something was going to happen to Trayvon that they did not want to be connected with.
That, in turn, means they expected that something was going to happen to Trayvon that they did not want to be connected with.
That is a very reasonable conclusion.
An alternative is that they just left somewhere and their planned alibi was that they were not in the area — an alibi necessary in case GZ called the cops to report the azz whipping they gave him.
I don’t get it, if their appearance here at the 711 was to be an alibi, proving that they were not somewhere else, then they’d want the best pictures of themselves on the cctv they could get. So this has to be the opposite, TM waited outside for 30 seconds for them to arrive. So he was meeting them, if not he’d have started for home and been thirty seconds away from the door when they came in. 30 x 3 ft/sec. 90 + feet away from the door. They’d have had to call him back and remove all doubt of a meeting. But, no, unnecessary, you don’t wait in front of a store for 30 seconds with nothing to do. You certainly don’t wait outside 5 minutes for strangers to finish their shopping.
The white guy removes his hat but his large dark glasses are as good as a mask. Finally there’s a good possibility that this guy is the Ransberg(burg) who had Burgess’s stolen laptop in the backpack he was carrying. One is tempted to theorize that the SPD was running a burglary ring(s) in and around the town. I mean, one doesn’t expect a police force to have so damn much to hide.
I don’t get it, if their appearance here at the 711 was to be an alibi, proving that they were not somewhere else, then they’d want the best pictures of themselves on the cctv they could get. So this has to be the opposite,
Okay. You’re right about that. I hadn’t considered that they did not want to be recognized while in the 7-Eleven. Still, I believe there is a connection between them, Osterman, and GZ.
Osterman is a con artist — tried getting a finder’s fee for a friend to return the car paid for with a bad check by the guy who hired Osterman for security. GZ is a silent thief — taking all $18,000 in the Aames case without telling his attorney, neither paying legal fees and costs as agreed. Osterman and GZ are petty con artists, so I can see how they would use NW as a cover-up for thefts.
Thinking — what if the 3 stooges and Burgess still wanted to be paid for the laptop, GZ refused, and that led to a fight and deal to get Burgess off?
Well, we have Ransberg(burg) Burgess, and two more blacks, Osterman, Taaffe the HOA board and a few cops at the SPD. so the field is rich with players and therefore ripe for conspiracy theories galore. I don’t see GZ as a druggie type guy, he’s more of a prescription med and alcohol type. He’d certainly go for any scheme to move stolen merchandise, and obtaining a regular supply would be his likely link to druggies and possibly dealers as well, since drug users are quick to assert that their fence is standing behind their request for credit. A shortage of funds and boom, things begin to get hot really fast.
I could see GZ not realizing how much money a druggie could need, and possibly fronting them a few dollars for fixes, in exchange for them stealing things he could sell on ebay etc.,
But, drug users are cons themselves, so if someone is stupid, they’ll get them tied up in knots if you let them. So, there’s a lot to work with there, but we lack a way of opening these doors.
Now there you go, drugs!!! Lots of money and heavy time, GZ involved with police? A narcotics officer in question? A wide screen phone involved in moving stolen merchandise? There’s a whole lot of possibilities there and some of them would be more than sufficient to cause a murder. Well there’s a lot of material there, but we have no way to put it in order yet.
Now there you go, drugs!!! Lots of money and heavy time, GZ involved with police? A narcotics officer in question? A wide screen phone involved in moving stolen merchandise?
Can’t help it, but that $18,000 that GZ received in July 2011 just stays on my mind. What did he do with it? GZ got busy setting up NW around August-September 2011. The timing with the money he received is weird because he had lived in that community for how long? He wasn’t concerned with organizing a NW until after he came into that money.
He was working full-time, came into $18k, but was broke several months later. That smells like addiction. It’s my gut feeling that GZ’s drug use shall come to light.
Now there you have something. Remember how they covered up the fact that Nicole Brown and Faye Resnick had gone through 1.4 million dollars in under 2 years, in the OJ trial. That was due to drug use.
So 18k is small potatoes for any kind of drug habit. Could Ransberg(burg) have been his pusher as well? That would certainly be a good fit. Enough money in there to reach high into government circles eh? Ransberg(burg) would be well connected enough to always get away, and violent enough to be feared. Hmmm… I see some theories forming up now, but I’ll hold off, I need more information. In fact where any theory along these new lines would have to go, I’d need quite a bit on very strong evidence.
In fact where any theory along these new lines would have to go, I’d need quite a bit on very strong evidence.
True. About the timing:
July 2011– GZ gets the $18,000.
August-Sept. 2011 – GZ organizes NW.
Dec. 2011 – GZ fails his classes and does not graduate.
He does not make any NEN calls reporting suspicious persons thereafter until February 2, 2012. He sees nothing until Burgess is outside of Taaffe’s with Taaffe leaving his doors unlocked and windows open.
Feb. 26, 2012 — GZ kills Trayvon and relates back to Feb. 2, 2012 regarding Taaffe’s house. Although it’s difficult, we have to think like GZ. He sees a correlation with Feb. 2nd justifying his actions on Feb. 26th. We know it’s not because he saw Trayvon standing outside of Taaffe’s house.
This is what leads me to believe that Burgess and the 3 stooges are somehow connected in GZ’s hunt for a “suspect” on 2/26/12.
As do I. But so far all I can put them down for is, possibly luring Trayvon from home for this trip to the store, delaying his return home for 5 to 6 minutes, and possibly tracking and reporting his progress back to RATL.
Of course, I note that because of the timeline and distances to be covered, GZ was still too tardy to have caught Trayvon, if it were not for the rain impeding his progress. That, and GZ slurred speech, makes it seem possible that GZ was impaired going into this thing. But that’s not enough to prove that the result was more than a plan to detain and question Trayvon that went horribly wrong. Of course, the only reason it could have gone so horribly wrong is, GZ decided to kill Trayvon for his own sick personal pleasure.
So, even or especially if you assume this thing started with non-lethal intentions, you still get murder one in the end, because Trayvon mounted no such deadly assault on GZ, thus GZ’s own intentions were unnecessarily deadly.
A kinesologist working with a forensic anthropologist, would be able to establish how much strength Trayvon had available. My guess is he would be too weak to move GZ around at all or obtain any position of advantage over him.
You see, as you develop strength by applying it, you also cause your bones to strengthen as well. A forensic anthropologist will be able to see the strengthened bones or the lack of it, and determine what kind of forces TM could apply. It would not be a pretty picture for GZ. But, I hardly think that is necessary since the SP is going for M2.
Remember we had a discussion about how not all the evidence we were discussing here, was going to be used at trial? Well, I think that’s why BDLR finally released DD’s statement about the apartment complex. I think that up to that point, they weren’t going to use any theory about where GZ first spotted and followed Trayvon from. Since they can easily prove M2 without going into all of that if need be.
My guess is that, after reading some of the speculations going on here on the net, and adding in some other evidence they had collected, they came away with an even more useful theory about what happened that night, and it’s is probably even more devastating than the simple case they were prepared to make.
Well, whatever the new theory of guilt the SP has developed you can be sure it’s a lollapalooza!
Willis “…and frightened him into running off the roadway where he hoped a car wouldn’t go. …”
This is perfectly confirmed by DeeDee in her letter to Sybrina
“….then noticed someone was following him.Then he decided to find a shortcut cause the man (c)(w)ouldn’t follow him. Then he said the man didn’t follow him again…..”
This statement also indicates Trayvon was not aware of GZ running after him on foot. So that again tightens the timelines.
If the “other complex” indicates Trayvon did enter through the back way near Taaffe’s, it still does not mean that is where GZ first saw him. This very brief statement from DeeDee makes no mention of the mailboxes, it starting to rain again etc.or any timing apart from “then” “then” “then” which could be anything from 5 seconds to 5 minutes.
Tchoupi’s lights analysis looks more like GZ cruised through the RVC/TTL intersection 3 times before going down to the mailboxes, which looks more like a search pattern than following someone.
(Where and how is Tchoupi, btw? anyone seen or heard of him???)
A while ago, last fall I think, he appeared briefly when some challenges to his work were issued. He put them to rest, informed us that he’s been snowed under with work and went quiet again. That’s been the last I’ve heard from him.
Yes he DID HAVE A WALLET and no it was NOT kept as evidence, it was given back to him to take home
In Singleton’s interview, she takes his CCW permit FROM HIS WALLET. How she gets the wallet is not explained, I assume he reached in his pocket and gave it her when she asked does he have a permit. Anyway she HAD IT TO LOOK AT.
I’ve said this about 10 times now, look it up if you don’t believe me, it’s in the interview or in her first written statement from the first evidence dump.
However a lot of people carry a wallet even when they are not going shopping, so the presence of a wallet is no evidence of his intentions in that respect.
wassointeresting
March 29, 2013 at 7:05 PM
Oh I believe you Aussie, Thank you for confirming what I had always thought. This “having no money to go shopping” issue bugged me because so I’ve seen so many people say he had no money because only the two quarters were logged into evidence. The fact that something was not logged doesn’t mean he didn’t have it. I mean they didn’t take his underwear, did they, so it wasn’t logged, but we can’t say he wasn’t wearing any underwear (Sorry for putting that image in your head).
And I agree it doesn’t support 100% that he was going shopping. You need to have your driver’s license when you get in the car.
Basically, the lack of money, credit card or a grocery list was secondary or tertiary evidence that there was no shopping trip really planned. The primary evidence was that there was no attempt by GZ’s car to go out the front gate at all, even when there was no Trayvon to be viewed. Because with TM in the mail shed by 6:54 GZ does not leave home early enough to see TM anywhere on the road. So, if GZ was really intending to go shopping, there was nothing to prevent him from simply going out the front gate. Only a phone call could do that.
onlyiamunitron
March 30, 2013 at 1:41 PM
“Basically, the lack of money, credit card or a grocery list was secondary or tertiary evidence that there was no shopping trip really planned.”
Is there an inventory of the contents of Zimmerman’s wallet from that night of which I’m unaware?
No, there’s no inventory of the wallet, except to note that the ccwp was in there. However, just as they inventoried the two quarters they found in the coat pocket, you can be sure that they’d have inventoried any cash they found in the wallet, or anywhere else for that matter.
They would hardly take pains to list two quarters then let a 20 dollar bill go without mention.
onlyiamunitron
March 31, 2013 at 12:50 PM
“No, there’s no inventory of the wallet, except to note that the ccwp was in there. ”
Perhaps his wallet was never taken into custody. Perhaps they were not, on that night, able to show probable cause to search the contents.
Nope, that’s not police procedure. They’ll ask you to take your wallet out and lay it on the table, then they’ll examine it and give it back. They’re not going to give you a chance to avoid a secret compartment, they’re going to feel around to see if there’s anything conceal inside that they can’t find a way to reach.
They have these procedures built up over time, because people have tried to fool them, and they’ve devised these countermeasures.
onlyiamunitron
March 31, 2013 at 6:52 PM
“They’re not going to give you a chance to avoid a secret compartment, they’re going to feel around to see if there’s anything conceal inside that they can’t find a way to reach.”
Would that not constitute what the 4th Amendment would consider a search?
Of course it’s a search. It’s legal because he consented to it.
onlyiamunitron
April 1, 2013 at 4:06 PM
“Of course it’s a search. It’s legal because he consented to it.”
I can’t remember anywhere that they recorded him consenting to a search, as opposed to agreeing to answer questions, but now I’m going to have to find a lawyer to bug about whether the cops finding your wallet in your pocket while checking you for weapons is different from legal grounds to search inside the wallet.
Seems like that would be covered by the “papers and effects” clause, but nowadays you never know what chunks of the Bill of Rights have been silently “disappeared” while we weren’t looking.
Sigh… No wonder everyone suspect you, look at what you’re doing here. GZ is not under arrest, he’s in the station voluntarily assisting with the investigation. They ask him to empty his pockets, he either refuses and demands a warrant and a lawyer, or he complies and allows them to look through his possessions. They find his ccwp, no cash and that’s it.
He consented, he did not refuse, he’s a law student, he’s been mirandized, there’s no issue.
onlyiamunitron
April 2, 2013 at 4:30 PM
If there is no inventory of the contents of Zimmerman’s wallet, it is far more likely that they did not conduct such an inventory than that they did but made no note of it.
What did I say? I said that they would only have inventoried money if they found it, otherwise all they did was note that the wallet contained the ccwp. They inventory money because, they don’t want anyone saying later that they had more money than they left with. Police aren’t generally accused of stealing peoples papers from their wallets, but they are accused of stealing cash all the time. So the procedure of searches is to inventory all cash while in front of the subject, so to preclude any chance for a claim.
Yet here we are still posting on this trivial matter of little to no consequence. All the money George had on him was two quarters and the police inventoried that. As far as his credit card/debit card(s) they are in the statements. GZ was so broke that day he couldn’t pay attention.
Oh, and his prepaid phone, was probably a Walmart phone and it was due to go blank on the 28th. So GZ was in serious need of cash.
It would seem that perhaps he was originally going to remain on Oregon all the way to the front gate, but because of the rain decided to shorten the distance, possibly pausing by mailboxes in the other neighborhood instead of the ones near the clubhouse, but either way this increases the chances that he entered via the shortcut near Frank’s or the other shortcut nearby.
And if he were being followed or stared at suspiciously in the other neighborhood before getting to TRATL, was it by Zimmerman or someone else?
(My version of the 2 person theory is that Zimmerman and the other person didn’t know each other or about each other, and that it was a case of all those old white guys looked alike to Trayvon in the dark and the rain, and at his age anyone over 25 or so is “old”)
Hah! Hence the bald Osterman and GZ with short hair cut switcheroo theories. Why hasn’t anyone twittered that side by side? (Ok, taking tongue out of cheek now).
But if we were to believe any of GZ’s statements, in the re-enactment video, he said that when he spotted TM at taffe’s place, TM was looking around “to see who else….” Then he cut his sentence short. TM was unnerved by somebody, whether it was by GZ at that time, or somebody else that GZ didn’t know of or did know of (aka the “tipster). **Sigh*** we’ll never know.
onlyiamunitron
March 29, 2013 at 2:49 PM
Actually I was thinking along the lines of some other old white guy who lives in the neighborhood to the west of TRATL, one who has never spoken publicly about any of this for whatever reasons.
But of course that’s all based on trying to get the young lady’s statements to work chronologically, which, due in large part to the ineptitude of her two interviewers, does not necessarily lay out in the same sequence as she related the various events.
unitron
wassointeresting
March 29, 2013 at 3:01 PM
SMH, it’s a sad day when we can consider that it’s not unlikely that a stroll through a couple of neighborhoods can get a black teenager such unwanted attention from two different observers, no? Security videos from the neighboring complex were provided in some recent discoveries I think but have yet to be released. I wonder if they show anything.
Can’t tell if it was on the way out or on the way back that he cut through the next complex. It looks more like she was trying to keep the story short. Either that or we haven’t been hearing the whole tape or story that DD told, just excerpts in answer to the questions asked and not a full narration???
Can’t tell if it was on the way out or on the way back that he cut through the next complex.
Am I imagining things, or didn’t DD say in one of the interviews Crump/BDLR that as Trayvon left the 7/11 it started to rain? I could swear I either heard it on tape or read it in one of the transcripts. If DD did say it then her letter statement IMO would read more like it was as he left 7/11.
Either that or we haven’t been hearing the whole tape or story that DD told
IMO we haven’t because DD doesn’t seem to be short of being able to keep up running commentary on the event, with drama included any time they let her run but both interviewers appear to keep interrupting her all the time.
Yes, she did say that it started raining after TM left 711. But, Trayvon had hung up on her, so that she didn’t hear the encounter TM had with those three guys there. He reconnected with her after a while, several minutes into his trip back. Shortly after TM left the 711, Tchoupi’s work shows that the rain began to gradually increase every 3 or four minutes.
The rain, expressed in fractions of an inch don’t seem like much, except that they are in inches per hour.
Exhibit B attached to that response is a handwritten letter from Dee Dee to Sybrina. I transposed it as is.
“March 19,2012
I was on the phone when Trevon decided to go to the Cornerstore. It started to rain so he decided to walk through another complex because it was rainy to hard he started walking then noticed someone was following him.Then he decided to find a shortcut cause the man (c)(w)ouldn’t follow him. Then he said the man didn’t follow him again. Then he looked back and saw the man again. The man started getting closer. Then Trevon turned around and said Why are you following me !! Then I heard him fall, then the phone hung up. I called back.and text.No response. In my mind I thought it was just a fight. Then I found out this tragic story.
Thank you (name blacked out).”
There are a few interesting points in it, from a map-making point of view.
In her interview(s), DD said that TM ran “from the back because it was more easier” However, here, she wrote “Then he decided to find a shortcut cause the man wouldn’t follow him.” This really confirms the fact that TM’s normal route of walking home would be along the sidewalk in front of the houses along TTL. His cutting through the back was so GZ couldn’t follow in his truck.
i think her handwriting says “cause the man WOULN’T follow him” and that this speaks to TM’s confidence that after he ran, the incident should have been over.
It’s a W, not a C in my opinion.
wassointeresting
March 29, 2013 at 2:11 PM
Yep, TM did what he could to avoid the creepy old man. If some guy follows me in the dark behind townhomes, and I had a younger kid waiting at home, I’d have turn around and wouldn’t even ask a question like TM did. It would have been a few straight kicks to the balls, a few jabs with my keys and mace if I had it. And if I’d have been shot after leaving my stalker bleeding, I don’t think the cops would say, Oh the watch guy with a gun was just defending himself, because I’m not a young black male.
Yes, and IMO there can be no question it is a “w” when you compare it with several other of her written words that start with a “w” (“walk”, “was”, “walking”).
here is my first impression, biased of course but I’m only human:
“I was on the phone when Trevon decided to go to the Cornerstore.”
They had been talking all day and she heard about his trip before he left.
“It started to rain so he decided to walk through another complex because it was rainy to hard he started walking then noticed someone was following him.”
AFTER LEAVING the 7Eleven, Travyon took a different route home than he had on the way there. It was raining and he sought a path where he could shelter along the way some, even if he was still moving all the while, or stopping here and there. In the neoghboring complex there were more trees, overhangs, cutting thru the stairwell overhangs, etc. than on the open main road.
IMO she is saying here that someone HAD followed him or WAS watching him. Not that a car-to-pedestrian chase had already begun. OR she’s skipped the mail kiosk at R@TL and moved right on to the point where TM has left the mail kiosk, and is being followed in the car-to-pedestrian chase down TTL.
OR, she is saying that TM was aware he was being followed in a car to pedestrian chase as he entered the R@TL thru either shortcut – the FT one off Oregan ave or the more southernly one from the neighboring complex. This would be bolstered by tchoupi’s light events visible on RVC and that’s GZ trying to be clever by continuing to pass TM and then “doubling back” a time or two to look the teen over, but not overtly creeping along behind him, YET.
There are MANY ways to interpret this passage and it’s pure speculation to say one is right where the others are wrong. Once again we are left with no definitive account.
I don’t tend to think she is claiming he was followed while in a neighboring complex. I attribute the “walk through another complex” as a past tense phrase – the walking thru another complex was over when the next action begins, that action being noticing someone was following him.
I tend to go with the idea that this short sentence tries to cover the route from 7eleven to the mail kiosk, and then the walk from the mail kiosk and the moment before TM took off running to leave the roadway because of what the sentence leads into:
“Then he decided to find a shortcut cause the man (c)(w)ouldn’t follow him”
This to me clearly refers to TM leaving TTL for the cut thru path, having been engaged in an unnerving car-to-pedestrian chase down TTL. But keep in mind my bias. She says “the man couldn’t follow him” because the man was in a car and the teen planned to leave the roadway. Keep in mind that at sometime around this exact moment, their call either dropped or TM hung up so he could concentrate on running fast. I also speculate that TM never looked back once he took off running, and that he was around the corner and into the dog walk area before GZ opened his door, so that even if he had looked back he would not have known the man was exiting his car. Had he seen that, he would have run faster and farther.
“Then he said the man didn’t follow him again.”
She calls him back, and he (tragically) STOPS running to answer the phone and reassure her that the car did not JUMP the curb and continue off-road after him. It’s rainy, and he assumes the incident is over since only a real bad guy with no known rational motive would continue pursuing a kid with skittles, a soda and a lighter with such vigor.
He thinks he’s in the clear, and tells her so. However, soon enough he sees or hears TM puffing and wheezing up to the sidewalk T, banging on his flashlight and speaking into a phone. TM decides to either hold still, or step onto a patio. I think he was near JohnW6’s porch, but IT DOESN’T MATTER where he was or where they went. Let’s not rehash all that. IMO we’ll never know absent a confession or a miracle-worthy GPS tracking technology.
Some time passes, we know and boy is that the mystery. I’m guessing that TM and her simply talked some more and TM watched GZ move off from the T and towards RVC, never fully sure if this was the same person who was in the car or not.
Somewhere in here TM begins again to get frightened and his voice drops. It could be that he walks up towards the T to see if the figure that want towards RVC is still there. We don’t know. We can assume both however are walking around in the dark wary and unsure of the other’s location. GZ knows he’s after a “suspect” he can identify. TM knows a car chased him and that MAYBE a guy got out. He’s sufficiently at ease that he rebuffs DD’s pleas to keep running, at least at first.
“Then he looked back and saw the man again. The man started getting closer”
At this point they engage in a fast-walk footchase that looks like a routine from a silent movie – each wanting to keep up a pretense that they are moving innocently along – TM towards home possibly, or towards open territory/ lights, freedom, whatever and GZ moving in his direction steadily closing the gap. GZ IS CLOSING THE GAP AND IS THE AGGRESSOR.
Then the exchange of words, and the physical struggle begins, after GZ has clearly acted illegally in stalking the teen, having profiled and pursued using car and on foot.
The only thing that is new, is the other complex. BdlR kind of skipped the discussion about Trayvon’s path from the 7 Eleven to RATL. Time wise it would make sense for Trayvon to have made a stop earlier. He’d left the 7 eleven at 6:30 pm for the 15 minute walk to RATL.
I am quite sure Trayvon was hiding from the rain at the mail area when GZ called the nen. I’ve tried out Trayvon walking towards GZ, and GZ proceeding to follow him from other locations, it just doesn’t work.
I agree we will need detailed gps if we are ever to find out the exact path. For now I think our personal biases are to deep. I don’t see how you get Trayvon walking with GZ following him and getting closer, Trayvon looking behind him and eventually turning around to face GZ, to work with Trayvon hanging out on the dog walk after he ran.
I really don’t see it Willis. My theory may be completely wrong, but which ever path they took, I am even more convinced now, GZ followed Trayvon to the T, and that Trayvon when he realized the guy was really going to follow him down that dark path, decided the safe bet was to turn around and face his pursuiter.
Like I said it doesn’t matter, amsterdam. I see your logic, and I see whooze’s and its all possible.
What’s not possible is what GZ claims.
Could be that TM rounded the corner and paused as GZ went by. Then maybe walked back up to the T to see if the guy who passed headed to RVC was coming back, but by then GZ had headed south and circled Jon’s building, only to cut off TM who was headed south by then. They both head north trying to be nonchalant but the chase speeds up until they are both actually running the last steps to Johns’s back year where TM wheels on GZ and they speak and them fight.
Thats close to what whonoze thinks. But they could have gone ANYWHERE they has all the time in the world.
amsterdam1234
March 29, 2013 at 3:39 PM
If Trayvon had his GPS on when the incident occurred, we’ll know. What I’m afraid of, is that he turned it off because his battery was low.
If they did come from the T, Trayvon’s gps records would be enough to show that GZ followed him. If GZ chased him back north towards the T, Trayvon’s gps records could be interpreted as him going back to the T to confront GZ.
Barney seems pretty confident that GZ following and confronting Trayvon is an undisputed fact.
That could also mean he has additional witnesses or GPS data from GZ’s phone.
In the first interview (Crump) DeeDee mutters something about Trayvon sheltering under an apartment awning…….. and the interviewer says something about mailshed and she agrees NOT HAVING EVER BEEN THERE. It is quite possible she DID mean “apartment awning” because Trayvon had said something like that…. he’s in an apartment complex and under the awning.
The place to the west of RATL is apartment blocks, and does have awnings, high wing-shaped things over the entrances to the buildings. Crump, trying to clarify what she meant, perhaps instead succeeded in getting to “accept” a location quite different from what she (and Trayvon) meant. It’s not something she could really dispute as she’s never been there.
Everyone else has then accepted it as being the mailboxes, only because we know from GZ that is one place where he saw Trayvon. And for sure he WAS there, but at a later time in DeeDee’s narrative than is looks like, if the “apartment awning” is taken out of the story.
Now her memory of what was actually said has been tainted, as her mental “movie” of what Trayvon was describing has been altered by that substitution.
Perhaps this will slot back to the right times again if, in the witness box, she can be more specific about the times she meant by “then” and “later”.
onlyiamunitron
March 29, 2013 at 8:06 PM
I don’t believe I’ve ever seen any interview with Zimmerman where he says anything about seeing Martin at the mail kiosk next to the clubhouse.
I don’t believe I’ve ever seen any interview with Zimmerman where he says anything about seeing Martin at the mail kiosk next to the clubhouse.
On Hannity’s program, Zimmerman alluded to seeing Trayvon in the mail shed. He said that Trayvon didn’t look like someone coming out to get their mail and running back inside to get out of the rain. In his NEN call, GZ said that Trayvon was walking about looking at houses and near the clubhouse.
I agree with Unitron. GZ never says anything about the mail kiosk, ever to the SPD.
Of course I think this is because GZ worked very hard NOT to, substituting instead an inconsistent, contradictory and self-serving false narrative.
He saw the kid “near the clubhouse” when the teen started “walking towards me, now.”
This is the moment where one must sync a stopwatch from. Wherever Trayvon is, he is described as “by the clubhouse” when he begins walking towards GZ’s car. That itself describes the mail kiosk, but recall that GZ gives specific (to him, lol) directions to the NEN call taker how to get to where he’s talking about…. and it damn sure ain’t the clubhouse parking lot.
I think a major portion of GZ’s lies all cascaded out when GZ decided to omit, obscure and obfuscate about the car-to-pedestrian chase.
Agreed… There’s a dropped call at around 6:54 that get’s reconnected and puts TM at the mail shed then. The mail shed is ~13 minutes from 711, there’s three more minutes to home.
So TM is in the mail shed quite some time before the NeN call starts.
6:22:32 Two minutes later Trayvon leaves the store
but is not seen outside heading back East
6:23:00 SUNSET 2/26/12
6:29:19 Trayvon is seen outside heading back East
6:30:– Trayvon’s 5:09 call ends
6:30:– Trayvon makes call lasting 13 minutes. ends 6:43
6:38:– Is that Mark Osterman at the M&I bank? SP has
taken the video into evidence.
6:41:– Incoming call lasting 4 minutes ends at 6:45
6:42:19 approx. At mailboxes: ~3452 feet from
711 @ 4.4ft/sec. 13min. (this is a “guesstimate”
based on several factors:
1. Had he run he needed only approx. 7min.30sec.
2. He was being hustled along by an increasing rain.
Rain fall: 6:42 — 0.03
6:47 — 0.04
6:52 — 0.04
See Tchoupi’s Analysis: http://tinyurl.com/8o3ltt7
6:43:– Trayvon’s 6:30 call ends
6:45:– Incoming 6:41 call ends
6:45:– Trayvon makes call lasting 5 minutes ends at 6:50
6:46 :– Trayvon makes call lasting 2 minutes ends at 6:48
6:47:00 CIVIL TWILIGHT ENDS
6:48:– 6:48 call ends
6:49:– Incoming call lasting 4 minutes ends at 6:53
6:50:– Trayvon’s 6:45 call ends.
6:54:– At mailboxes (est. 25 MIN WALKING AT
4.4ft/second = 6600 FEET
Trayvon needed only ~13:04 to reach the
mailboxes from 711.
Or eta of ~6:42:19 @4.4/ft/sec. walking speed.
This puts him easily and securely at the RATL mailboxes by
6:54pm with ~564 feet remaining to home via the dog walk.
A 2 minute 8 seconds walk.
Even cutting back his walking speed to 3.3 ft/sec. doesn’t do much to change things. Oh, now I see where the 4.4 ft/sec comes from. It’s a 16 minute trip from home to the store, so someone [NLME of bcclist.com] used that speed, derived from his earlier works on an animated time line. This was the only speed that made things work.
“It started to rain so he decided to walk through another complex because it was rainy to hard he started walking then noticed someone was following him.”
I don’t buy any theory that has GZ pursuing Trayvon outside of RATL. The security vids are pretty clear that he spots TM for the first time under the RATL mail awning, and rather directly calls the police.
My guess is that DeeDee simply wasn’t clear on the geography, and/or collapsed time greatly in writing that passage in her letter. We don’t know exactly what she (or Trayvon) would have meant by “complex.” Also the route to the shortcut doesn’t really go into the complex west of RATL, it just cuts through it’s front parking lot.
In her interview with BdlR, DeeDee seems pretty firm that Trayvon was under the mail shed when he spotted GZ looking at him.
So either she was mistaken about Trayvon walking through another complex, and everything took place inside RATL, or he did take a shortcut, but did so well before Zimmerman left home. Otherwise the whole timeline we have established with physical evidence blows up. I think the physical evidence is more reliable than DeeDee’s prose descriptions…
I don’t think this statement is inconsistent with the your video analysis. You should look at her statement again. Actually, there is a period after “to hard”, and following word “He” is capitalized This is how it should read:
“It started to rain so he decided to walk through another complex because it was rainy to hard. He started walking then noticed someone was following him.”
Just like in her interviews, whenever DD says “he started walking” or “he started walking again” means that a certain period of time elapsed during his walking and their talking.
This statement was certainly condensed, and she never said that he was under a mail shed in the other complex. Agree that whatever way he went, he still ended up at the mail shed at RATL.
Yes, this statement is very very condensed, just the barest basics, and reads like putting in writing the bare bones of an oral discussion already concluded. Just recapping the main points. Certainly not to be taken as a substitute for her more complete statements.
Oh and this letter was released by “accident”……..we got it as attached to BDLRs rebuffal of MOM’s latest silly motion, for no apparent or explained reason. But in the latest discovery
where this letter is officially released, it says copies are provided to Defense Counsel but copies are not attached to the Discovery Exhibit filed with the Clerk. So the public was “not supposed” to get it.
Agree w all this… This letter is a greatly condensed summation of more complex events. And that pretty much what we up til now thought has happened, happened that way. She’s not wrong, however. She’s just being very brief.
Way back when NLME was posting and his timeline animation was being discussed, the talk around rejecting the use of FT’s cut through was that DD may have mentioned apartments, because TM simply mentioned that he could have sheltered there, but that in fact he did not and kept going down Oregon to the front gate and then to the mail shed. Many months later came Atty Crump’s “He hit the code”, which we believed came from Brandy or Tracey and meant that Trayvon had a code to enter through the front gate. Not that he should have needed one, since the gate wasn’t supposed to be locked until 7pm?
At this point, I am discounting many of Ben Crump’s statements as being fact, not because I think he purposefully lied, but because I think he injected so many of his own impressions into the case, that it’s causing a lot of heartache for the prosecution at this point. He barely talked to W8 before his interview with her and took what he heard from TM’s parents who admittedly didn’t hear her name until around Christmas before the shooting anyway. He got so many things wrong such as W8’s age (saying she was 16 instead of 18), her relationship with TM (calling her a girlfriend, when she was most likely a long-time classmate who only recently started talking to him, not dating, but was maybe “getting there”) and so his saying “had to hit the code”, if it did not come from W8 herself, then it’s just his embellishment of the story from his own mind.
Not disagreeing with you on Atty Crump. Just saying that his effects have been powerful, since he started giving us his impressions, back when we had little to work with. So, many powerful theories were built on the use of the front gate, when they probably should not have been.
Remember back when NLME was around? I was sure that Trayvon had used the cut through near Taaffe’s but, I was convinced that GZ had not seen him there when he came through. Then people started arguing against the Colonial Village route altogether. All I had then, was that DD had mentioned “apartments”, and all I could say was that she must have gotten that word from TM’s mentioning them, as a place where he could shelter if need be, on the way back.
Well, I’m glad to know that’s cleared up now. Meaning that GZ did not see Trayvon at Taaffe’s and that, he dreamed up that part of the story to conceal the fact that someone called him and told him where to look for Trayvon.
Because it was raining, they could not possibly figure out where Trayvon might stop to shelter, or when he might move on. So, it’s because of the variable nature of the weather, Trayvon’s progress had to be monitored all the way back from 711. The small boo booes on the back of GZ’s head are so completely dried, even before he gets to the station, they were likely prepared before he left home, just as I surmised long ago. I know that the Wagoner photo was altered. Because noses do not stretch. The picture I have on my evidence pile, http://tinyurl.com/co9ouag shows in the circled area, that the nose itself has been stretched downwards on the right side. Besides the nose is made up of cartilage, you can’t have that kind of distortion one minute and have it all cleared up minutes, hours or even weeks later.
wassointeresting
March 31, 2013 at 10:41 AM
Hey Lonnie, I’m not sure that it’s cleared up the GZ didn’t see TM at Taaffe’s at some point. I mean it’s always been obvious that that was not the FIRST place that he just HAPPENED to notice TM. Now it’s a question of whether TM was spotted by someone going through those other apartments and the car to pedestrian chase began there, and TM lost him for awhile as he cut through Taaffe’s place only to see GZ back on his tail. Who knows, what I would give for that GPS map right about now!
Now LLMPapa has located GZ’s sister Grace one block away from the Colonial Village Apartments mail kiosk. This whole thing just gets curiouser and curiouser… Please bring on the GPS data.
onlyiamunitron
March 31, 2013 at 12:35 PM
“Well, I’m glad to know that’s cleared up now.”
I think the recently released letter to Sybrina just muddled it up again.
“It started to rain so he decided to walk through another complex because it was raining to hard. ”
I don’t think so The time line shows what time is available. Change the route however you like, but the NEN call must work along with the dropped call at 6:54 pm. So, Trayvon must be in the RATL mail kiosk by 6:54 pm whatever route or other impediment gets thrown in his way.
Because he has to be in the mail shed by 6:54, he has to come through Colonial Village Apartment and FT’s place even earlier. That means he’s not available to be seen by GZ when he comes down RVC. There’s also no way for him to be over there with his sister because, While TM on foot can use the cut throughs, GZ in his truck has to go all the way out and around.
But the vehicle that parks by the mail shed in time to coincide with the start of the NEN call, does not come in the front gate, it comes down RVC west. So, maybe Grace figures into this somehow, but it’s just as easy to have her miss the entire thing as well. She’d have to be monitoring the complex roadways and mail kiosk. Why would she do that on a dark rainy night? The answer is, if she did it, she would not be doing it on her own, but as part of some overall plan in operation. Which means such a theory would have to hook her up with a network that’s monitoring TM’s progress very carefully.
I don’t mind building out theories, in fact you have to build them out to get some idea of just how big a network is required to support it. However, once you see the size of the network and measure it against the available human and other resources, well, involving Grace requires a network size and conspiracy complexity too unwieldy to fit comfortably in mind.
She’s simply too far away and her information is too remote to be critical or even on time for most important event, the start of the NEN call. Her notice would come too soon for GZ to react properly to it as observed. And it would contain too little contemporaneous information being so far away from the RATL kiosk.
That’s pretty much what it sounds like to me. However, I noted something yesterday. When I went to do another synopsis of the 284 page evidence dump pdf, I noticed that where I had previously picked up Serino not recognizing Osterman on page 15. Page 15 on the pdf embed had changed and was now blank.
We all know that anyone can alter pdf files. Then post them to document hosting sites that allow embeds. Change the main/original document and all the embeds, all over the net, will change to. So I have to wonder about some of the information we’re getting. It certainly has been striking to me over the last year to see so much change so dramatically. But, since I had not been keeping notes much, I just put such conflicts down to my error.
In this case that cannot be, because I had both the pdf document and word pad open at the same time, and was reading in one and typing in the other. So keep any eye all.
I agree that the missing page you saw is not evidence yet of tampering. Did you try to download or view the 284 pages more than once, and with more than one browser, and other variables like which ISP you were using? Sounds like a glitch in data downloading to me.
The question to ask is, “who benefits?” Who would have the insane audacity to alter data that anyone can verify is now altered and how does this affect anything other than bragging rights of bloggers? The real “discovery” has already been given to the defense in hard copy.
Vigilance is one thing, slight paranoia is another.
The question “who benefits” is too easy to answer if you’ve spent any time on the net at all.
There are, as you well know, creeps who get their kicks doing every manner of stupid things. Nor does there seem to be anything like too much effort needed, to stop them from mounting these wasteful efforts.
Of course, I also realize it could just be a glitch, but it could just as easily be some kook getting his kicks. I just thought that the net being what it is, better to let people know there’s something to be on the look out for, so that if someone is messing around, we get early discovery. We know the opportunity is there. It’s easy enough to download pdf conversion software, convert a document, alter a page or two, convert back to pdf, then upload to scribd or google drive and start passing around the link. Or, even hack it into a trusted site.
You do realize that most virus writers could be earning substantial salaries as programmers, yet they choose to wreak mayhem for nothing and risk jail.
So, while I’m not saying there be monsters under every bed, let’s not go the other way and pretend there are none at all.
Thanks, it just seemed strange to see just the one page in the whole document blank.
I’ll check it again later maybe as you say, its just a hosting problem.
Wouldn’t it be wild if TM had his GPS on SO that he could navigate a shortcut home thru the neighboring complex? Then checked in a few times along the way, or left it running with a “how to?” or sents some dropped pins?
I just bought an android and gps on was the default setting. We know that Trayvon had his gps on earlier that week. Trayvon would’ve had to make a concious decision to turn it off, if indeed it was off. Maps uses gps information, so do other apps that have nothing to do with directions or tracking. Camera functions for example, may use it. I am not sure when gps data is saved on your phone.
I found a couple of free or cheap tracking apps for android, that would allow runners, bike riders and hikers, to track and save the routes they took. Trayvon loved his bike, according to DD. He may have had one of those apps running in the background.
GPS does use quite a bit of energy, and Trayvon had been talking and walking for over an hour. He may have turned gps off when he noticed that his battery was getting low. I agree with Aussie, if gps was on, we will know what path Trayvon took.
Here is an example of a Blackberry app, that would log gps data on the phone itself. http://www.emacberry.com/gpslogger.html
Sounds like something GZ would use. According to MO he is frugal.
Going on the prosecution’s grins and O”Mara’s crying about getting/not getitng data and not having it interpreted for him, I’d say they DID get GPS data from Trayvon’s phone.
It wouldn’t matter if it’s accurate only to 50 feet. That is the width of the grassy area where the doggie path is. That is close to the distance from the T to where the shooting happened.
If they map it up at 50ft diameter blobs moving through RATL, it will still give a good picture of the route Trayvon took, how long each section took him and where, and for how long, he was stationary.
But did they get any from GZ’s phone???
IF they did, a simple animation with the NEN call playing in the background would show, in under 10 minutes, who was the aggressor. The rest is then just formalities. Nice if they also got some from his truck, but that may have been too late to go after.
We didn’t hear the defense about the gps data anymore. I think they would’ve pushed the conspiracy theory about the unclear chain of custody if, as they claimed, only data for the 26th was missing. I think there is a good chance that they have gps data from Trayvon’s phone.
If they have gps data from GZ’s phone, you are right, just a simple animation with the nen call will do.
Well like we have seen with other issues, we know the defense is not above making a fuss over things that simply are not so regarding what they get and don’t get as discovery.
The possibility that the “hand drawn map” they saw was the diagram for unlocking the code on TM’s phone which then can and probably has blown up into a “map that shows trayvon doubled back and the state is holding back because Obama told them to” once the suggestion is passed on to treepers is an obvious example.
The whining about not getting data from the 26th has produced no further motions from the defense to the judge demanding discovery. That’s what I note.
amsterdam1234
March 30, 2013 at 11:55 AM
Exactly, the whining stopped, and it is never mentioned again. We know Trayvon had gps logging software running on his phone that week. MOM made a remark about the accuracy, but that data for the 26th is missing. MOM then starts picking on the chain of custody of the phone. Next they never mention it again. We know their modus operandus by now. If there wouldn’t have been data for the 26th, they’d never stop talking about it.
I say there is gps data for the 26th. Big question is, does the prosecution have gps data from GZ’s phone?
I think the defense doesn’t know. It is possible GZ doesn’t know. That is why they made this broad discovery request. GZ bought a new phone when the donations started pouring in. He may have sold his old phone.
I think the SPD made an image of GZ’s phone the night of the incident, and again around march 22nd.
If the prosecution has gps data from that night, retrieved from GZ’s phone, you can stick an apple in GZ’s mouth.
I don’t understand why we the people aren’t getting to see the GPS data if it’s part of the discovery that the prosecution filed and gave to the defense. We’ve seen other things that were handed over, have we not?
Is the defense sitting on it for a reason? If so what could that reason be – that the material is exculpatory and proves the innocence of the defendant? I tend to doubt that.
A foia request may be needed. There is one person on FL who files foia’s regularly. There may have been more interesting stuff on Trayvon’s phone. People do film these days as a means to document incidents. Only Trayvon’s phone was found on the ground, all the other stuff stayed in his pockets. We shouldn’t discount that possibility.
The data would be a big pile of meaningless numbers. Ir has been passed on to the defence. Why it wasn’t made public I don’t know.
What they worked out from the data would be work product, and they’d not give that to anyone ahead of the trial. Not even raw, never mind neatly overlaid onto a map of RATL.
If it proved the innocence of the defendant we’d never stop hearing about it from the GZ camp. Their deathly silence on it after the first day rather tends to show the opposite, or they truly have no idea what the numbers mean.
I checked what these low impact gps loggers register. Timestamps and coordinates. It should be pretty easy to feed the data into one of the tracking apps. Or you can just plot it in maps.
Very quiet about this subject on the GZ support sites too.
wassointeresting
March 30, 2013 at 4:13 PM
It’s like crickets after all those months of the treepers screaming about “ping” logs. If I wasn’t too paranoid to actually go over there, I’d post “ping! ping! ping! ping! ping!” in multiple posts until I got banned.
I don’t know if the SP is required to release it to the public or just hand it over to the defense. Most of the documents, I understand, someone has to pay the county for, before they can obtain it to post. At least AxiomAmnesia is fund raising to cover there cost of obtaining documents to post.
In any event I think GPS data would come in the form of these really huge CSV files. (comma delimited files) and so it will take a special software reader to make any sense of it. Otherwise there’s nothing to read. The decoded files may simply be considered work product, since different software will provide different decode results depending on the precision it’s set to, and the number of available fields it can decode.
Of course you can, but you have to know in advance what data each field contains and how to format it for presentation. Just getting CSV file opened is, in most cases meaningless.
If the data is stored in a proprietary format, then you need a proprietary decoder.
I think that by 2009 most cell phones and providers wanted and got military precision GPS, because they wanted to access consumers exact locations, to make targeted advertising and local services available. As usual it’s all about making money, any other benefit is purely accidental and secondary.
OK, I’m aggravated. I was trying to find the document mentioning the surveillance videos of the other apartments. I think it was only mentioned as a demand for specific discovery by the defense on Feb 12 or 13, but the document has disappeared and it’s also not in the state’s website listing all documents connected to the case. I wonder if the defense pulled the motion and why??? Does anyone have the original pdf file?
I was just curious because I think but am not sure that the request was for the surveillance video at the Lakes Edge apartments which are west of colonial village. So the surveillance might have shown TM getting off the main road over on Rhinehart Rd (soon after leaving the 7-11 and not off of Oregon Ave.
…but the document has disappeared and it’s also not in the state’s website listing all documents connected to the case.
The other day lurking at TL, or perhaps DWM, or both, they were complaining GZlegalcase had moved docs so links weren’t working and they are the ones who would be most informed, I suppose.
I was just curious because I think but am not sure that the request was for the surveillance video at the Lakes Edge apartments which are west of colonial village.
It was Lakes Edge. Here’s a handy list I pinched from… nah, you don’t wanna know but I doctored it to avoid whatever! (lists are in alphabetical order not directional)
FDLE checked for CCTV (26/03/12):
Cycle Gear (1157 Rinehart Rd)
Enterprise (1177 Rinehart Rd)
Gold Mine 704 (1129 Rinehart Rd)
Hop Sing’s (1181 Rinehart Rd)
Kohl’s (1371 Rinehart Rd)
Lake’s Edge (Plantation Lakes Cir. & Rinehart Rd)
M&I/BMO Harris Bank (1381 Rinehart Rd)
Platinum Nail & Spa (1173 Rinehart Rd)
Sam’s Club (1101 Rinehart Rd)
Trusco Bank (1185 Rinehart Rd)
Those having CCTV were:
Kohl’s
Lake’s Edge Apartments
M&I/BMO Harris Bank
Sam’s Club
TRUSTCO Bank
Defence requested CCTV tapes NRD18/01/2013
Kohl’s parking lot
Lake’s Edge Apartments
Sam’s Club
OK, because it’s a holiday, I’m going to let my imagination loose (somebody through a lasso around my neck if I run too wild here). To expand on this sister/brother conspiracy theory, GZ did say that he texted his sister that he was going shopping, so was he on the way to the store or maybe back from the store to drop something off for her? Or maybe on a sunday night, he and Shellie were apart because they had a fight (hat tip to Whonoze’s domestic hypothesis), so Shellie goes over to her dad’s place and GZ is at his sister’s place moping, when there goes a black teenager wandering through the neighborhood, and he gets to take his mind of personal troubles as he puts on his crimefighting cape. Jumps into his truck and goes cruising after the teenager. Wouldn’t this corroborate DeeDee’s tale of a long tail? (or car to pedestrian chase, per Willis) and the fact that TM sounded winded if he had been running from two apartment complexes over (starting at Lakes Edge apartments?)
Finally, his sister is the ONLY person he would every cover for, or she would be happy to cover for him. I think he loves her more than Shellie (no, I’m not alluding to any sort of romantic love there, his myspace page declares how much he loves his little sis.)
Again, and pointedly: the long tail is not in reference to a car-to-pedestrian chase directly. It’s about how the timing of what DIDN’T happen doesn’t fit GZ’s lies.
Yes there was a car-to-pedestrian chase and YES Dee Dee speaks fairly clearly of this on multiple occasions, but each time she does so, she’s talking about the time TM left the mail kiosk at RVC and walked past GZ’s car.
I think many things are possible. This sister business may have some merit to it, who knows. What’s clear at the present however is that the evidence we have at present is NOT suggestive of opening up a huge can of worms that points fingers at the sister theory just yet IMO.
IMO it’s something to wait until we know more about, and something to not throw the baby out with the bathwater about.
Dee Dee is very clear that Trayon stopped at ONE mail kiosk. This is her story it’s the one where TM spotted a creepy guy in a car, and then bravely walked for home before all hell broke loose. She’s as clear as she can be about it whenever she is asked intelligent questions.
She knows he left a mail kiosk and was in return chased by a car and this caused him to run away. And she knows her call dropped around this time. I’m too pissed off to lay it all here for the nth time. But this sister-kiosk shit is bunk if you think this is what Dee Dee is talking about regarding Trayvon running away from a moving car with a creepy guy in it. That happened on TTL while GZ was on the phone w the NEN call taker.
Many things are possible. What GZ claimed happened isn’t possible.
I suppose it’s worth re-examining things in light of the comment in passing from Dee Dee’s letter but having done so, it’s not proof of anything at all, especially a wide-eyed conspiracy theory that throws out all the sensible and rational conclusions we’ve painstakingly arrived at thus far.
Yep, the timeline and phone logs sort of precludes TM stopping at two mail sheds for any length of time, such that it makes it possible for GZ to spot him anywhere before 6:54pm.
Obviously he has got to be in the RATL mail shed by 6:54 to make his NEN call work in any event. http://tinyurl.com/bn5e4xe
IMBS but I don’t understand why the one must debunk the other? Trayvon was a very tall lad, tall = long strides = walks fast. He may have ran some from 7/11 to get out of the rain (or to elude GZ if it became clear he was tailing him from there). Couldn’t he still have got to RATL in time for the Mailbox timeline… but a bit tired and out of breath as DD described him near the end?
Wouldn’t this corroborate DeeDee’s tale of a long tail? (or car to pedestrian chase, per Willis) and the fact that TM sounded winded if he had been running from two apartment complexes over (starting at Lakes Edge apartments?)
Yes! Exactly! It would certainly explain how Trayvon was tired and/or out of breath as DD notes. The idea at the lounge that it was normal for a sporty teen to get tired with a walk there and back and a short sprint up TTL was never really satisfactory, more a defence to the criticisms from Team Z.
Oh jesus. I wish LLMPapa would peer review his CTs before posting this crap. He means well but has consistently got things wrong by about 15 degrees off the true heading and personally, I’m tired of it. If that was the “mail kiosk” Trayvon was initially spotted at, I suppose it’s possible, but this is hardly “proof” of anything at all. Increasing the amount of casual speculation is hardly helpful IMO.
Plus, he’s doxing someone without any real reason. Now the defense has ammunition to claim the people who are in support of the family of Trayon Martin are engaged in a tit-fo-tat dangerous game of trying to unmask and put at physical risk the persons material to the case before the trial has started.
For shame. For stupid. For popularity on YouTube. I’m appalled, and he’s not even right about his bullshit theory I’m willing to bet.
@willis, there are many many of papa’s videos at which I shake my head because he doesn’t actually know the totality of the evidence as well as some other bloggers, but provides entertainment value to the crowd.
I did wince when I saw the picture of his sister (although that picture has been floating around the internet, just not in main stream media), kinda like I winced when DeeDee’s supposed picture was posted on Tchoupi’s site and others (at this point, we don’t know which picture is correct and should never have been posted by a Trayvon friendly site). I should HOPE that his sister does not live at that address anymore. So absent her picture and her address, it’s no different than discussing her involvement than discussing Shellie’s involvement. (being that neither voluntarily talked to the media but both did conspire to help hide GZ’s money).
That being said, the only reason why I would ask that we step back from our own months of analysis and prior thinking to consider the possibility that TM did shelter somewhere else earlier than his arrival to RATL. Of course, that would require reanalysis of the rain patterns. Yes, it’s too much to think that he sheltered at two different mail kiosks, but what would prevent us from accepting that he sheltered at the other apartment complex and that’s where DeeDee called in?
Until now, I’ve been VERY SKEPTICAL of any CT’s but, if his sister did live in the direct walking path from the 7-11, past the the clubhouse and then the T, then it’s worth a double take, IMO. GZ’s text messages to his sister that night would be enlightening, such as one that might say “Hey sis, I’ll stop over and fix that light bulb for ya before I go shopping.” I am not thinking that the sister is the tipster, just that GZ was actually over there and that’s where he spotted TM himself, possibly, just possibly.
OK, I’m going to go watch X-files on Netflix to fill my head with more conspiracy theories.
wassointeresting
March 31, 2013 at 3:27 PM
“Hey sis, I’ll stop over and fix that light bulb for ya before I go shopping.”
FYI, that was just a stupid made up hypothetical text to illustrate that GZ had a close relationship with his sister and could have been over there at anytime for any reason, and not a variation of the joke “How many Zimmermans does it take to screw in a light bulb….”
@WSI
First, I am assuming by CT’s you are referring to “conspiracy theories” so if not the case please pay less notice to this.
IMBW, from a reply to me LLMPapa posted me several weeks ago at the lounge when I commented my long held idea that I from DD’s references to a “Plaza” and “another apartment”, “shade”, etc. that Trayvon did not walk the noisy dirty road trying to talk on the phone back to RATL, but crossed through the adjoining complexes on his way home, and from the link he gave me to a map image of the mail shed in Colonial Village he has stored, I don’t think he means that GZ’s sister was involved in the death of Trayvon Martin (the CT, no?), rather that GZ was familiar with the back routes and that he was especially familiar with Colonial Village because his sister lived there which as someone posts above or below could mean he went there that evening to, say, “fix her light bulb”!
I don’t see that this would change, upset or contradict too much of the work you guys have done with such enormous dedication, because Trayvon still had to enter RATL and walk to the dog walk. I must admit I have always found incredible that Trayvon entered RATL through the cut through furthest from the road, i.e. via Taffe’s, to backtrack and go home via the clubhouse when entering via Taffe’s as Taffe told Marinade Dave, would place him on the shortest route to Brandi’s, i.e up RVC, and he would have avoided the dog walk had he gone that way.
I think the importance of this new possibility is that it would place GZ watching and stalking Trayvon for a much longer time, disproving even where he first saw Trayvon which would surely convince any jury his whole tale was a lie from start to finish.
I also think possible GZ may have seen Trayvon leaving RATL via the gate, (with LLMPapa’s information, perhaps on his way to his sister’s), and either followed to 7/11 or left him to go to his sisters for something for whatever and on leaving saw Trayvon, the suspicious guy he saw not 15/30 mins earlier leaving RATL standing/sitting there looking around. He could have then followed him and when Trayvon took the dirt tracks to cross into the next complex GZ could have whipped around on the road, and when he crossed into RATL via the lower cut through, whipped round through the gate and drove up and down RVC once or twice until he spotted Trayvon and from where it more or less picks up with your conclusions, the only problem, Trayvon didn’t stay as long at the mail shed as was thought. (This is a very rough draft as others are so much better at this than I so please feel free to discard, pull to pieces, or use at will, gently as I am not as tough as I may seem!)
wassointeresting
March 31, 2013 at 7:07 PM
@grbrsb, yes CT means conspiracy theory, and I was the one who wrote the “light bulbs” comment. I guess I don’t mean CT in a totally negative light, it’s just my shorthand to mean the involvement of an individual, anyone other than GZ. Here, there’s no evidence at all that his sister actuality lived there at the time, if she was actually there or had anything to do with it all. It’s just a twist that may pan out to be something or nothing whatsoever.
We have to remember that this written statement by DeeDee matches what she says in the cleaned up copy of her interview. It’s not as if she has said anything new or different, it’s just thanks to the incredibly inept interview skills of her interviewers (as unitron puts it) that we didn’t get a clear and complete picture of her testimony, and we still don’t.
However, i do agree with you, amsterdam and whoever else that whatever might have happened before 6:54 doesn’t change TM’s and GZ’s movements down TTL and to the T. We will just have to see if there are any real evidence of the “pursuit of Trayvon Martin” before he entered the RATL complex.
Thanks WSI. One point, it was only today I introduced the sister into my long held theory that Trayvon returned and/went to 7/11 via the neighbouring complexes because of LLMPapa’s video. Whichever route it was a long one and he could have been spotted at any point… I know the motto, everything’s possible but what GZ claims is not possible. I really hope you guys are right and that the GPS or something throws the much needed light!
amsterdam1234
March 31, 2013 at 6:41 PM
@gbrbsb
I think Trayvon was near the mail area around 6:54. That fits the phone records, it also fits that the rain starts coming down very hard right around that time. You can really see it is raining hard around 6:55 6:56 in the east pool video.
Unless GZ never parked on TTL, Trayvon was at the mail area when GZ said “now he is coming towards me”.
@amsterdam
I have no doubt of that but would it affect GZ first seeing Trayvon outside of RATL, or going out of RATL, locating him again in Colonial Village and following him back?
Another point, could it have also rained hard when Trayvon left the 7/11 because in several places, now including this recently disclosed letter or statement, IMO DD clearly indicates that it rained hard when he left the 7/11.
Not really, DD says that soon after Trayvon left 711 he told her it started raining. The localized rain report shows that the rain increased gradually as Trayvon walked back to RATL, getting very heavy within a half minute to a minute before he reached the mail shed, so he had to run the last stretch.
amsterdam1234
March 31, 2013 at 11:50 PM
@gbrbsb
Yes it is possible it rained hard before and that he stopped earlier on his route. I would say it is likely that he stopped earlier. It is only a 15 minute walk froM the 7 eleven to the clubhouse, if Trayvon arrived at the mail area at 6:54 it would’ve taken him 24 minutes to get there.
The point is we just don’t know exactly how he walked. What we do know is that there is a car on TTL at the time the nen call is made. The person in that car seemed very focussed on the mail shed and if that person wasn’t GZ, GZ was not on TTL when he got out of his car to follow Trayvon.
What ever happened earlier, my conclusion is that when GZ called the nen, Trayvon was in the mail area on TTL.
There are two weather report charts here from the 2 closest weather stations, only a mile or two apart, and they show different rain patterns. That on-again off-again rain can be very patchy.
willisnewton :
Oh jesus. I wish LLMPapa would peer review his CTs before posting this crap. He means well but has consistently got things wrong by about 15 degrees off the true heading and personally, I’m tired of it. If that was the “mail kiosk” Trayvon was initially spotted at, I suppose it’s possible, but this is hardly “proof” of anything at all. Increasing the amount of casual speculation is hardly helpful IMO.
Plus, he’s doxing someone without any real reason. Now the defense has ammunition to claim the people who are in support of the family of Trayon Martin are engaged in a tit-fo-tat dangerous game of trying to unmask and put at physical risk the persons material to the case before the trial has started.
For shame. For stupid. For popularity on YouTube. I’m appalled, and he’s not even right about his bullshit theory I’m willing to bet.
That’s okay, he said her address is to the west of the mail “shed” when it’s obvious from the picture that it’s to the east, so all the doxers will be too confused to find it.
: – )
Putting Trayvon on that path would seem to make it more likely he came in through the shortcut Zimmerman claims to have seen him near and not less likely, so I’m not sure how this is supposed to punch holes in Zimmerman’s story.
But someone please tell LLMPapa to turn the music up louder, I could almost still hear what Witness 8 was saying.
S’pose you could, but if he floats you get to burn him at the stake… Hmmm, nice smell… toast!
wassointeresting
April 1, 2013 at 1:58 AM
@unitron, people keep talking about you today, you must be sneezing your head off (that’s what my mama used to tell me was the reason you sneeze for no reason….she also said that if you catch the hiccups, it’s because you stole something. Other than that, she really was a wise woman, rest her soul).
onlyiamunitron
April 1, 2013 at 2:53 AM
“unitron, people keep talking about you today, you must be sneezing your head off …”
Funny you should mention that, I was well into double digits a while ago.
Seriously. Wondered if it was going to stop before I blew out an eardrum or something.
Never noticed any hiccups correlation, though.
Maybe I hiccuped too much or stole too little.
: – )
unitron
wassointeresting
April 1, 2013 at 3:49 AM
@unitron, geez, either you’re gonna blow an eardrum sneezing or somebody’s gonna sneak up and waterboard ya, if not for your comments, then simply for just beating everybody out as the first to “follow” the professor’s posts. Neither fate sounds good. Well, you be careful out there. (I’m still wondering how you survived the school yard days.)
amsterdam1234
April 1, 2013 at 4:30 AM
@gbrbsb
It makes me feel dirty having to share space with a person who exchanges niceties at that cesspool of racists over at the cth.
Putting Trayvon on that path would seem to make it more likely he came in through the shortcut Zimmerman claims to have seen him near and not less likely, so I’m not sure how this is supposed to punch holes in Zimmerman’s story.
It only looks like that in aerial view. To cross through Colonial Village (CV) the direct route is Millwood Drive (MD), running from the covered “mailboxes” to in front of the cut throughs where it stops dead.
Using the dummy on Oregon Av. in satellite view, centred slightly forward in front of the cut throughs if you look back towards CV, you can see how MD. ends as near as damn it directly in front of the cut through nearest Oregon Av., the most obvious to use if walking to Brandi’s via the clubhouse. Furthermore, looking broadside in front of the gap you can see the terrain from MD to Taffe’s cut through is hilly making it more dodgy, especially at night.
You can also see how MD. ends directly in front of the lower cut through, not Taffe’s, by turning Bing’s birds-eye view 180 degrees (I can’t seem to turn any degrees in Google).
I meant “more likely he came in through the shortcut Zimmerman claims to have seen him near” than that he came in the main gate off of Oregon.
I saw your magnum opus “over there” addressed to SearchingMind and I’m wondering if it was only the professor’s new post that distracted enough people to keep you from being savaged from all sides for it.
Maybe they’ll wait a couple of days and then start talking about you behind your back after that thread’s been pushed down the stack by a couple of others.
I meant “more likely he came in through the shortcut Zimmerman claims to have seen him near” than that he came in the main gate off of Oregon.
Oh, OK, so all my mapping work for nothing! Anyway, just in case you didn’t realise there are two cut throughs there, nearer and furthest to OA. The furthest is by Taffe’s where GZ claims, but it just doesn’t make any sense whether Trayvon cross countried through CV or sauntered down OA.
…distracted enough people to keep you from being savaged from all sides for it.
Ooooh, savaged!!! But hold on, I didn’t think I’d written anything even minimally troll like (I think you do a better job at that!) either to Crane or in my reply, because I have no qualms with the letter cum statement anyway… I believe it!
Trouble is it’s becoming difficult to say anything there that can’t be perceived as suspect! Gotta walk on tipytoe… gotta walk on tipytoe… you’d do well writing it 100 times cos more days like yesterday and I see swatted… no, fulminated!
@willis, Good for you for warning the professor about featuring papa’s video. I’m fine with the speculation part, as everything is speculative, but her picture should not be in that video and especially her address if it hasn’t been confirmed that she does not still live there. It could also endanger whoever else that might live there now. I saw Papa’s response to you regarding her address as being provided as evidence and therefore is public record. That may be true, but it’s not as if she intentionally wanted her address out there. Many of the witnesses names and addresses are out there, but responsible bloggers choose to redact the information.
@Whonoze, Please delete my post above with the link to Papa’s video,
@WSI. thanks. Maybe I was too harsh, but it struck me as irresponsible to put the photo and address vicinity into a YouTube video that is mainly out there for sport.
This too shall pass. I’m just not looking forward to hearing MO’M throw this to the press as “evidence” that the New Black Panther Party is out to kill Arfo-Peruvians using drone strikes ordered by Obama and orchestrated by BDLR and Judge Nelson. I hate having to read those inane motions to the court. Waste of good time.
wassointeresting
March 31, 2013 at 8:27 PM
@willis, I am baffled that several who responded to you over at FL did not understand that GZ’s sister never courted the media, unlike RZ Jr. Just because her picture is on GZ’s own social media doesn’t mean it’s fair game to splash it about. Also, her address was on the report of GZ’s past NEN calls but we know that not all documents are properly redacted, and in fact I think her name was redacted from that very same page so there was some effort to conceal her identity even there on a public document. I mean, take GZ’s own mother who HAS talked to the media, but always in shadow, if we found a picture of her, would we publish it? No! I’m very curious to read the professor’s opinion on this.
If I understand LLMPapa did his research, he only posted what was already known to the public. Well, maybe not so widely known, but already released and publicly available info. So there are no privacy issues. Carry on.
Take a deep breath.
DD links her narrative to the disconnected calls. We know the last “hung up” call occurred at 6: 54 pm. If you check the east pool video, you can actually see it is raining very hard around 6:55 pm. If what GZ is true, that he parked his car on TTL, GZ was trolling the mail area around 7:08 pm. There is no other car driving on TTL. There is only one path that has Trayvon walking towards GZ, that fits the timing and the physical evidence.
Is it possible Trayvon stopped in the other complex? Yes, I think so. It would explain why he didn’t arrive at RATL until 6:54 pm.
I haven’t watched LLMPapa’s latest yet. I think he has some great videos, and some I don’t care for too much.
I’m convinced GZ didn’t spot Trayvon near Taffe’s because of the timing and the clubhouse videos. You know as well as I do, there is no car moving in front of the clubhouse and on TTL, consistent with GZ’s narrative. There is however a car moving consistent with DD’s narrative, and what we can hear on the nen call. I am going to stay away from the sister theory because there s just no evidence to back that up.
Exactly. TM may have cut thru the other complex, but it wasn’t where GZ called the NEN that’s for sure. That call begins around 7:08 or so. We know where he was then – trolling the mail kiosk at R@TL unless he has a teleporter too like he claims TM must have.
After having given much thought to the idea of Grace’s involvement, I’ve concluded that her role, if any, would have been too limited to be of much use, and at the same time, would have required an inordinately expanded conspiracy network, much too heavy for the players we have to carry it. Thus, in exchange for having her cover approximately 100 feet of Trayvon’s progress, she’d have had to wait almost an hour, focused on her stretch of the road, while remaining at the ready to issue reports, not one of which would be critical or necessary. Considering that Trayvon makes it to the RATL mail shed by 6:54 no matter what, and that GZ was not prepared to catch him there, and would have missed him if not for the rain.
Conclusion, even if there was a role she was willing to play, there would have been no need for her to be involved at all. When people plan to break rules and do things they believe are so wrong that they must be concealed with lies, they are especially careful to have only the barest minimum of people on board.
@Lonnie
IMBW, but I don’t know if LLMPapa meant to create a CT around GZ’s sister other than that she was living in in Colonial Village which meant GZ would be familiar with the complex and visit it, and that it could be he was there that night and saw Trayvon crossing through or sheltering.
Of course, but the suggestions and implications of what it imports cannot be ignored. They must be dealt with. Anyone claiming to be an investigator, would be remiss to dismiss viable theories out of hand, without good and sufficient reason therefore. While responsible investigators w/authority have more constraining them from examining the more fringe theories available, we on the net have no such constraints and may pursue any theory until it’s “currency” runs out.
LLMPapa did his job, he sparked a debate down a new pathway to be explored. We did our job and found it to be a cul-de-sac. All is right with the world.
Just throwing it out here, someone, I think Trent, had a video way back showing the theory that Trayvon entered via Colonial Village, based partly on the “other complex” statement in DeeDee’s first interview.
The document LMMPapa shows, giving Grace’s age as “early 30s” doesn’t fit with her being “little sis” as that would make her older that GZ.
We don’t know anything about this sister — who is her mother? what was the mother’s relationship with PapaZ ? if it appears from the ages that she was born while Papa and Gladys were married, how come she was in close contact with the family? it would be most unusual for the product of an extra-marital affair to be close to the family, especially as that implies the mother would also be close or at least in regular contact.
How likely is it that a girl, brought up by a mother NOT married to the father, would have the father’s surname????? in most such cases the child is brought up with the mother’s surname, even if the father is known and has acknowledged the child. So I don’t think her name would be Zimmerman anyway.
In fact, what’s the evidence that she’s half-sister through Robert Snr?????
Scenario, while we’re on CTs : R and G get married, turns out they can’t have kids, her sister OR SOMEONE ELSE CLOSE has a number of kids she can’t keep, for one reason or another. R&G adopt them. The half-sister then could be one the birth mother DID keep and/or adopted to someone else. Much more likely on this scenario they’d keep in touch. (GZ and Robert Jnr look so much alike, they had to have had the same father as well). But in fact we have no evidence GZ is not R&G’s son, this whole “he’s G’s sister’s” speculation was tossed in at FL by troll Ajamazin with no evidence, other than Spanish genealogy records for similar names, which we know there’s a lot of about the same.
Trying to find hidden ‘truth’ in the way DeeDee phrases things is an errand for fools. She is not at all precise about time and space questions, ever. She paraphrases sometimes, or simply loses focus and mis-states things. She did tell Crump, once, that GZ said, “What you talking about?” rather than “What you doing around here?” but this is absolutely meaningless, since she told the story numerous times before and after this using the later phrase. This is just the way most people talk in casual conversation: they make approximations and figurative substitutions.
This case has been dry as a bone for real information for some time, so as the Martin/Zimmerman junkies wait for the trial, the tick tocking ever so slowly, they seem to have nothing better to do than let their speculative imaginations run wild, and get sucked into working off/against the ‘blame everything on DeeDee and Crump’ narrative spinning out ad infinitum over at TalkLeft. IMHO it’s a product of boredom, or pent up energy needing to go somewhere, anywhere. But it’s a waste of time. You might as well find something else productive to do for the next couple months — assuming the trial starts on time — because you know you’re going to be glued to the coverage once it does and won’t be getting fuck-all done IRL then.
We can be pretty sure that the defense has nothing but their smear campaign in the works, but we have no idea what the State has as evidence, and what kind of case they’ll present at trial. This is frustrating as it leaves us out in the cold. I hope they make the argument on forensics and facts rather than witness statements, but we don’t know what their strategy will be. Bernie isn’t showing his cards.
If it comes down to ‘he said, she said’ in court, as Jeralyn’s Jesters seem to imagine it will, the outcome could very well hinge on DeeDee, and that could lead to the prosecution’s case hitting one a number of icebergs hard enough to rip a hole of ‘reasonable doubt’ in at least one juror’s mind. This is the age of CSI: forensic cops are all over TV, and anyone at all in tune with pop culture is going to expect that kind of evidence to show up in a big trial IMHO. This is potentially a big advantage for the State, as the defense has nothing to offer here: not a single expert on their witness list. If the State can’t do as well as the blogosphere has — our security cam analyses; clear analyses of the time and space impossibilities of GZ’s account, Papa’s analysis of the blood trails and gravity, and his Knox-busting demonstration of the bullet hole misalignment — they shouldn’t be trying cases. Perhaps Bernie has an ace or two in the hole in the form of GPS data or GZ’s phone records (I’m guessing the later is more likely since one of the first defense motions way back when was to get them sealed). But maybe not…
BTW, speaking of silly CT’s, I ask that Trent Sawyer and his loopy videos not be brought into the discussion here. Leave that shit for the loungers, please.
At the top of the pages you will find the names of the person who created the events and if a leo is dispatched, the name of the person who did the dispatch. Those entries are followed by the terminal nr. they were working on.
The first entry allways shows the empid, and terminal id of the person who created the event. The first entry is allways a cmdid EVA with the name of the employee in the remarks section of the event log.
Cmdid’s EVA and EVM show the name of the employee as shown in the heading under ” created by” and “dispatched by”. You can recognize them by the terminal id’s.
If you check the event beginnining on page 4, you can see that the event is created by MDYCUS on terminal TM03. If you scroll down to page 5, you can read the first entry created on TM03 by empid 103066. The name in the remarks column should say MDYCUS, but the name is blacked out. There is an EVM for empid 103066 a little higher on page 5, again the remarks column should read MDYCUS, again the name is blacked out.
There is one other event where this is done. It is on page 10. This time it is the employee that did the dispatch. The name at the top is KRODRIGI on terminal TM13. You can find the empid for KRODRIGI in the DIS entry. It is empid 106035. This event shows an EVM for emp 106035. The remarks column should read KRODRIGI, again it is blacked out.
These are the only 2 events I could find where the dispatcher’s names were blacked out. They are also the only 2 logs where the names are in capital letters.
They have different employee id’s, so they must be 2 different people. I also couldn’t find these emp id’s in one of the other logs.
One other thing. GZ was a regular caller, but there is whole year without any calls.
Okay I’m interested but pretty confused. Let’s go through this slowly since I am cop-speak and geek-speak challenged.
empid = employee Identification # (ID number?)
Cmdid = something? ID ?
KRODRIG – first name starts with K, last name probably Rodriguez?
MDYCUS – M(ark?) Dycus – someone named Dycus
EVA and EVM = ?
another acronym = ?
I’m guessing that anything that looked like a name, they blacked it out just on general principle.
What I noticed is that that event that begins on page 9 of that mother jones pdf of GZ’s 911 calls is about his “little sister” having a “suspicious person” is at her front door, and George apparently not being able to reach her on the phone after that. He’s driving on Interstate 4 while calling 911 and can’t or wont get off the phone to look up her number so the police can try it? Or her home number or cell number?
perhaps the censor redacted some all upper case names but missed the lower case ones not knowing or caring that they were names of 911 call takers.
I’m not sure at all what the significance of any of this us supposed to be.
There is an address listed under a heading I don’t understand – it says 2015 Nextel NE-W (new?) State RD 434, which is a space of around 23 characters long. Lower on the page it says Little sister is (redacted area around 23 characters long). I suppose I’m doxing her by mentioning it, but there is no such place as 2015 Nextel that I can see. Maybe thats an office number in a Nextel building or store on State Road 434, who knows. She may have been at work alone at the time? The call was placed at 7:04 PM on a friday. Maybe the store was closed and someone was being belligerent wanting to make a last minute transaction.
Again, the significance of this all escapes me but I’m interested enough to ask what anyone else thinks.
To make it simpeler. There are areas redacted in the right hand columns of the event log on page 4 and page 10. What is redacted are the names of 2 employees handeling these calls. Other employee names on those same event logs are not redacted, and no names are redacted on any of the other event logs.
I am just interested why they wanted these names redacted.
In case people didn’t realize it, unitron was the very first commenter on this blog, and he had been on BCCList way before I joined it last summer. AFAIK, he doesn’t post over at TCTH, yes he does blog on talkleft, and ironically has probably been called a troll there for being too Trayvon friendly. Anyway, please don’t let this blog degenerate, and if anyone really feels like calling someone names or dunk them in a virtual toilet, take it to the Lounge. I’d like to keep the floors in this place clean.
@wsi
I can judge for my self, thank you very much. I am not in the business of calling people trolls, but his behavior yesterday on FL, his comments on Diawataman’s blog and his contemptuous denigrating remarks about DD warrant a calling out. Or do you think this mocking of DD on TL is civilized?
Quote from: Evil Chinchilla on March 31, 2013, 05:16:48 PM
…
“Would you say you were feeling ‘puppy love’?”
“Nuh-uh. I got a kitten.”
Now I know why they call you evil.
New keyboard, please.
Accepting bigotry is not civilized in my opinion.
wassointeresting
April 1, 2013 at 7:11 PM
@amsterdam, No I don’t accept bigotry. I don’t know. I haven’t followed every comment made by unitron, but I don’t equate his skepticism with bigotry. Frankly, I’ve seen far worse mocking of GZ’s family and associates at FL’s blog, stuff regarding wishful thinking that the defendant would be convicted and pay for his crime the form of getting sodomized in prison and the offering of money to have GZ donate so many pints of blood that, according to FL himself, would be “draining”. Many laughed right along with that, bloggers who I would otherwise think are normal decent people.
.
I don’t know why I even bother to get in the middle.Alright I’m going to step back, way way back from this, and go into lurk mode to clear my head.
I value your comments as I do those of others on this blog regarding the case. As Whonoze posted, keepin truckin’ folks.
amsterdam1234
April 1, 2013 at 7:44 PM
@wsi
Don’t go into lurking mode. I understand you want to keep the place civil. I just think certain things need to be addressed. Why are we here? We are all disgusted by what happened to Trayvon. Nothing has opened my eyes about what the expression ” walking while black” means, than Trayvon’s murder. It also made me aware that I will never understand what it means to be judged about my character, my intelligence, my worth as a human being simply based on the color of my skin. The least I can do is call it out when I see it, even when it is uncomfortable and apparently disruptive to do so.
I think the real hardcore racist is a minority. The majority of people are just followers. If we can make it socially unacceptabel to act and speak about a class of people in a denigrating manner, that behaviour will become the new norm.
onlyiamunitron
April 1, 2013 at 8:40 PM
The notification email I got says:
amsterdam1234 commented on BCC List Diaspora part 7.
in response to onlyiamunitron:
so if you aimed wrong, don’t blame me.
” I just think certain things need to be addressed. Why are we here?”
I suspect it varies from person to person, but if there was an election to decide which of some of us get to decide that for all of us, I must have missed it, just as I apparently missed the imposition of the inverse-seniority system that says the later you got here the more “ownership” to which you can pretend.
Of course since this isn’t a democracy but a dictatorship, with the dictator being whonoze, who has every right to be.
I’ll either abide by whatever rules he issues or I’ll go elsewhere if I feel I can’t, but until and unless he himself states that he has delegated any “house rules”-making authority to any one else, I’m not about to be dictated to by the johnnies-come-lately.
Oh, and by the way, some of us were well aware long, as in decades, before this case of the scourge of “(fill in the blank) while Black”.
unitron
amsterdam1234
April 1, 2013 at 8:58 PM
No, I didn’t aim wrong. I was well aware that you would get the notification. I am not intimidated by your “seniority”. If I see bigotry I call it out. I don’t care where you hang out, i don’t need to interact with you. But If I see you making these sexist, racist remarks about DD again, I will not let you get away with it.
If Whonoze has a problem with that, I’ll move on. I wouldn’t know what the hell I am here for.
Folks,nobody gets to dictate to anyone here. However, I ask people here to respect each other, and to refrain from making conclusions about other commenters based on a post or two.
(You could say I expect that, FWIW.)
Remember, text based web-forums tend to descend into flame wars because people make assumptions about somebody’s intent, take it personally, fire back in anger, which begets response in kind and so on. The problem is that you can’t hear the tone of a person’s voice in reading their text. Emoticons are too vague to help much. For some reason, lacking the cues of vocal tone, we seem to tend to assume the worst, when something much lighter may have been intended.
It seems to me that unitron rarely writes what he actually thinks about things. He plays the skeptic, poking small jabs and jibes at weaknesses he sees in people’s statements. I do not find this condescending. It’s good to have somebody checking. However unitron’s indirect and sometimes sarcastic method is especially ripe for misinterpretation, so if he catches a certain amount of shit that may not be warranted on merit, a lot of it’s an understandable byproduct of his mode of discourse. If you keep tossing yourself out as bait, you’re probably going to get bitten sooner or later.
amsterdam, if you have an issue with something anyone has written I do not expect you to remain silent about things that upset you. I do ask you to address the COMMENT, and to avoid ad hominem attacks on the person who made it. I also ask you to frame your reading as YOUR READING, not as some defintive fact about a person you only know through these little text boxes.
Perhaps I’m slow, but i don’t see what’s racist about Evil Chinchilla’s puppy and kitten joke. Now, if your complaint is that by sharing a joke with a Zimmietard, unitron is “palling around with racists,” affirming and abetting their venal attitudes in the process, I must humbly disagree.
At the risk of belaboring the obvious, but apparently all too easily forgotten: people are complicated. They are not one-dimensional. I would agree that an element of racism underlies the belief in GZ’s innocense, but I would disagree that this defines the totality of anyone who holds that belief. If you’re going to hang out at a web forum — you know, for actual discussion of some sort — there’s a logic to occasionally engaging their humanity apart from whatever issue is in contention. It’s just civil, and lubricates the discussion in both directions — people will respect your contributions more if you treat them like human beings now and then: make a joke or laugh at one, for example.
… i could ramble on about this for awhile, but I’m too tired. I hope y’all get thje drift. Again, I’m not setting down any kind of rules for these threads, just offering my own thoughts on what I see as an counter-productive tiff.
There are quite a few there with NEXTEL something or other, listed as “Ani/Ali information” . I don’t know what Ani/Ali stands for but it seems fairly plain that is a cell phone tower; Each such entry has a different number in front of it, too, which would be the tower number.
Those 2 event logs are different than all the others. Let’s use little sister as an example. I don’t know exactly what EVM and EVA stands for. I just look for patterns. EVA is allways created when a new event is opened. It shows the employee information of the person answering the phone. EVM also has employee information and name attached to it.
If you look at page 9 at the top of the page, you can see that the person who answered the phone is rbrodeur on terminal TM37. If you look at the bottom of the page you see that the first 2 entries are an EVA and EVM for employee number 105003 on terminal 37. Next to those entries, in the remark section you see the name of rbrodeur.
At the top of the page next to dispatched by you can see which person was responsible for dispatching the officer. Here dispatcher bperry on terminal TM10 did the dispatching.
You will find a DIS entry on the log sheet. That is when bperry dispatched an officer to the scene. The DIS entry shows the dispatch was done from terminal TM10 by employee 105052. If you scroll up the page, you can see what other actions were taken by employee 105052 on TM10. We know that 105052 is bperry on TM10. There is an EVM entry made by that same employee. EVM also shows the name of the employee and as we expect it shows bperry.
The 2 event logs I pointed out, are the only ones that have the names redacted. It looks as if they changed the names in the header and redacted the names on the log sheets.
It doesn’t make sense to redact the names on the detail entries, if you don’t redact them in the header.
What I am saying is that they tried to hide 2 people that have had an interaction with GZ. I have no clue why that is, just found it interesting.
I’m tending to think that maybe some of the names are more recognizable to the censor as names of people than others are. I think it was a pretty sloppy job of redacting and erred on the side of being heavy handed but was not complete in redacting all names.
I doubt the person who redacted these things understood the code acronyms either. They may have been trying to censor the names of people who were mentioned BY cops and whose identity ended up in the chatter.
I can’t imagine anyone except “Sean” the 311 call taker who might be called into court at the trial.
Willis
It is not sloppy. It is very deliberate. It is only 2 names of people taking a call or dispatching an officer in 8 years. And the redactions are on the earlier calls. If they wanted to redact, they could’ve redacted the names in the headers, but that would’ve been very obvious. What they did is change the names in the headers and redacted them in the detail lines. The thinking must have been that people wouldn’t realize that names of employees were redacted by doing it that way. MDYCUS? Give me a break.
These logs were released by the SPD when the pressure started to build. I am telling you that the SPD is hiding the identity of 2 people for what ever the reason may be.
No conspiracy theory is complete without a REASON imagined to explain things…. “whatever it may be” is not good enough. You get an F for this class and have to take it again.
I agree it is strange, in the sense of being a discrepancy, but that’s not enough to call it deliberate without a working theory of why?
More interesting would be to find out where Z was in the whole year he didn’t make any calls.
I don’t have a working ct. I just noted that it is strange. Maybe these people have become undercover agents. There may be a legitimate reason to redact those names, but in that case just redact it.
There are no calls for 2008. When they start again in 2009 the frequency is higher than before the break.
I say deliberate because it looks as if the names in the headers have been altered. It is possible that these 2 names were entered into the system with all caps, but if that is the case and the names in the headers were not changed, the redactions in the details are useless, since the names are at the top of the page.
I can think of only one reason to change the names in the headers instead of redacting them. It would be immediately apparant to a lay person that the SPD is trying to hide the identity of employees. That is why I am saying it was deliberate.
Zimmerman was working for CarMax in 2008. That same year the co-worker who made the statement GZ bullied him, filed a complaint against GZ. That same year GZ was sued for not paying his credit card bills. At the end of 2008 he was no longer employed by CarMax. GZ also applied for a four month law enforcement program given by the Sherrif’s office.
wassointeresting :
In case people didn’t realize it, unitron was the very first commenter on this blog, and he had been on BCCList way before I joined it last summer. AFAIK, he doesn’t post over at TCTH, yes he does blog on talkleft, and ironically has probably been called a troll there for being too Trayvon friendly. Anyway, please don’t let this blog degenerate, and if anyone really feels like calling someone names or dunk them in a virtual toilet, take it to the Lounge. I’d like to keep the floors in this place clean. https://whonoze.wordpress.com/2012/05/27/why-coons-or-punks-doesnt-really-matter/#comments
It appears the “dunking” alludes to what was Xena’s and my playful exchange about Unitron yesterday. I am fairly new here and don’t know the ropes, but I can assure you it was all in fun with no offence intended to anyone, less still Unitron, and I certainly wouldn’t want to do anything that could degenerate this oasis into the din arising at times elsewhere.
Sorry, I seem to have messed up with the quote which has published even the link! Too late I realise now I should have eliminated most of the code or just kept to the more/less signs and blockquote.
My comments about Untrion on FL were not playing. If I don’t like someone, I’m not going to lead them on. That doesn’t mean I hate Unitron — only means that I’m more likely than not to ignore him.
Hey, just learnt something new ! I didn’t know you can read a comment even though it’s being held in moderation! What moderation then?
Was just typing to apologise for getting you wrong about the dunking exchange and this, your second reply, came in. Whew…! Had me worried I had lost the faculty to distinguish between having a dig from murderous thoughts! 😉
@whonoze
I don’t know what to say. I saw red. It tears my heart out when I think about what is happening to this girl. First the experience she went through, the loss of her friend. The way she told BdlR that she feels guilt real guilt. I can imagine the what ifs going through her head, maybe wondering if she hadn’t called back that last time, Trayvon would have gone home just a couple of minutes sooner.
Then having to face Trayvon’s mother. Having to tell the story. Trying to put it on paper.
I found the ” tragic story” very touching and very real. I know the first time I was confronted with the death of someone close to me, that everything you do and say seems profane, but the lack of experience with something as uncomprehensible as the death of a person close to me, made me reach out to words and phrases I’ve heard in movies and read in books because I felt the need to honor the occasion.
I can feel her discomfort early on in her interview with BdlR, in a situation that she is not familiar with, talking with a man who must have felt so alien to her. I learned a lot about DD and BdlR as I could hear her starting to trust him and him beginning to feel empathy for her and a sense of wanting to protect her.
But then that intimate coversation is everywhere and she is ridiculed about the way she speaks, she is accused of being fake, of being a ho who urges her gangster boyfriend to go back and kill the white dude, of being a liar, a slut, a drug addict, lazy, stupid.
Then the threats to her safety, to uncover and expose her identity, the snooping in her personal life.
Now the attempts to get her on video.
This is just an anthology of the things that were said about her on these sites where Unitron rubs virtual elbows.
That joke may seem innocent to you, I hear the contempt of white priveledge devoid of any shame or compassion towards this girl. She is just an inconvenient object that may interfere with GZ’s right to profile, stalk and kill a black teenager who had the audacity to walk outside at 7pm on a sunday evening.
I can understand that I may seem stand offish. That I may not communicate as light hearted as some of you. I am sorry if people feel that way. This case makes me very emotional. I have a very difficult time making sense of this circus like spectacle that involves the unimaginable hurt felt by these people, who feel so real to me. The way I am dealing with these emotions is by detaching and holding on to facts.
I don’t know what I will do next. I don’t want to get into nasty fights, that don’t change anything. I also can’t bear the idea of even one AA teenager accidently reading jokes or other “subtle” remarks, confirming the stereotype, on a supposedly Trayvon friendly site and everybody seems oke with that.
Everytime I hear those terrified screams for help on that 911 call, I have my what ifs going through my mind. What if everybody that heard the screams would’ve turned on their porch lights and stepped outside.
When I see these kind of remarks about DD, I feel I have turn on the light and step outside.
I will take a break and think about it. You all carry on.
IMHO you express yourself very well in the post above, and in a manner I think is quite productive. I understand ‘where you’re coming from’ and share many of your feelings about the attacks on DeeDee. You SHOULDN’T be OK with a comment you feel confirms a stereotype, but you can call out the comment without getting medieval on the person who posted it. You HAVE turned on the light with your comment, and managed not to burn anyone here with the hot bulb.
I’m sure you’re familiar with the cliche “keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.” I too rubbed virtual elbows with the Fogenites on TalkLeft before Die Fuhreress banned me. I had my reasons for trying to inject a little sense into the discussion over there, like showing anyone who did stumble onto that forum that the POV over there is hardly universal. unitron is the only voice of dissent who’s been able to survive there. That may be testimony to the lack of vigor and directness in his approach, but IMHO it serves the pubic discourse to have some ‘hold on a minute’ interventions in that stream, however oblique they may be.
unitron’s internet ‘voice’ is dispassionate. For all I know, he may have emotions he keeps to himself, or he may actually be dispassionate. But I think he wants the truth. I think he believes the truth serves all of us, serves justice, and serves the memory of Trayvon Martin. I don’t see this site as ‘Trayvon-friendly’ I see it as truth-seeking friendly, which makes it pretty much an anti-GZ site (and hopefully anti-racist as well, if indirectly so). If we are all united on wanting the truth, lets focus on that. If you need to vent, by all means do, but please don’t single out a fellow truth-seeker for the path of the steam.
amsterdam, i hope you know you are an essential and valued part of this little community, and your work on the case is nothing less than heroic. Do stick around.
But can we just try to have a little more peace in the valley? As a favor to me if nothing else, since these conflicts bum me out, and I’ve got all i can handle IRL right now? Can y’all help a fella out?
** begin ironic voice **
Damn Loree for getting a job and having a real life to distract her from blogging. She knows how to keep the peace, and i doubt the flame wars would keep building if she were here to intervene. So i blame her.
** end irony **
I was thinking about loree too. People like her are the glue that can keep a community together.
I really don’t like myself for blowing up that way and I very much appreciate your hospitality. I tend to bottle up emotions and then explode. I envie and admire the people who are able to express their feelings without creating a crisis. I do care about the people on this site and enjoy reading the banter.
I will try my best to not create another scene like this. I’ll bite my tongue just for you.
Let’s make it work on the home stretch to truth and justice.
That’s what I thought, but I could swear Xena’s reply, quote No 247, to mine (quote No 245), came in when my quote still read “in moderation”. I must have been dreaming!
I meant to thank you long ago for your very tranquil blog here! Thank you.
@Xena. It appears Unitron took our exchange the wrong way so not sure what to reply. I thought he was joking about the dismemberment etc. and was about to tell him to be careful as I used my dad’s 1st edition of “Fox’s book of Martyrs” as a kid to learn to draw when I noticed his missing “wink”. Presumably you’ve read the follow ups by now so all this is going to cross in cyberspace I hope without further misunderstanding or offence.
@gbrbsb. No hard feelings here. I don’t respond to every comment about Unitron because frankly, that is not why we’re here and I won’t make him my focus.
onlyiamunitron
April 3, 2013 at 11:22 PM
“No hard feelings here.”
Oh, thank heavens.
I was so concerned that you might have suffered distress at my having taken exception with being threatened with physical harm.
I can sleep peacefully now with that off of my conscience.
Unitron if you took the exchange seriously I must sincerely apologise as clearly I have offended you, but it is a misunderstanding because believe me on my part the comments were not meant as anything more than a playful dig of the way you have of late of getting the lounge up in arms, and for which no “troll” accusations will ever come from my side because I more often than not see your points, and in my case at least I believe they often help to keep us on our toes without so much complacency so I have no bone with you whatsoever so it saddens me that you appear to have one with me.
Whatever you have with Xena, (I have had my own run-ins with her as well as with others at the lounge), I believe in this case she was having a playful dig too. I don’t know if you read our full exchange but her final reply to me at comment #249:
Oh yeah — the dunking comments were in fun. The comments I made on FL were serious.
I personally have no reason to disbelieve her but you will have to decide what you can believe from your side, but I am not Xena so I hope you can judge me for myself.
This is my last word as I feel I am not making the situation better but worse. It just occurred to me that these wise words of our host just two days ago at quote 233 are relevant to what happened here:
Remember, text based web-forums tend to descend into flame wars because people make assumptions about somebody’s intent, take it personally, fire back in anger, which begets response in kind and so on. The problem is that you can’t hear the tone of a person’s voice in reading their text. Emoticons are too vague to help much. For some reason, lacking the cues of vocal tone, we seem to tend to assume the worst, when something much lighter may have been intended.
I have had run-ins with others and others have had them with me with no lasting animosity from either side as far as I know, but in this case something much lighter WAS intended so after having apologised for hurting your feelings unintentionally, I feel the ball must be now in your court as to whether we can move on too.
I have tried to suss out what construction could be the mailboxes with google and bing maps and searched the web for any mention of it to no avail, so bar phoning the leasing office ((407) 321-1330) who may not tell you anyway, don’t see any other way to find out.
Almost no one in modern construction housing of any sort gets mail at their door anymore. At best the mailboxes are moved to the curb where the mailmen or mail women can access them from a moving vehicle. The economic pressure on the USPS is quite severe at present.
But here’s a word, actually two, about Trayvon’s route to the mail kiosk in the RATL: who cares? The action began when GZ first saw TM and seemingly profiled him. But PROOF of this action isn’t going to be established in a court of law until the NEN call recording begins, unless there are some text messages we don’t know about (and GZ hasn’t told his lawyer about, possibly).
Let’s hear a hypothetical right quick. George Zimmerman, thru “god’s will” attended the birth of Trayvon Williams and watched him every day of his life until the evening he killed him. He followed him to the park and to every pubic place that Trayvon ever went. SO WHAT? It’s not until he reported him as a suspicious person and then chased him with his car that GZ broke the law.
Here’s another hypothetical. Me, “willisnewton” called George to tell him the a black teen was walking thru the adjacent apartments and the George better get his car and go observe him. Yes, folks, I did it. What laws have been broken? None that I know of until GZ called the cops to report the activity, which was not suspicious, as such and then began PROVABLY stalking the teen after the youth left the mail kiosk at RATL and walked past GZ’s car.
George has all the rights of any citizen to go where he pleases. Unless and until he breaks the law, he’s not criminally liable for his behavior.
I am not a lawyer, but this is my understanding of the relevance of all this.
I’m also tired of speculation about who ran where after Trayvon ran off the roadway and into the cut thru area. It doesn’t matter. What matters is that someone closed a gap eventually and the two ended up in a fight of some kind where the unarmed person was shot by the person who leapt from his truck with a loaded gun and ran after the teen, having just previously CHASED the teen with his vehicle. That person was committing a crime already, and cannot claim self defense.
MOM has asked for an appeals court to review the order denying his request to depose Crump.
At the heart of the petition is this:
“Mr. Crump is the only person who truly knows the circumstances surrounding how Witness 8 came to be involved in this case, what she has told him on and off the recorded
portions of the interview Mr. Crump had with her, and what other involvement Mr.
Crump has had with this material witness.”
Of course that isn’t strictly true – Witness 8 knows this stuff, too and the defense is, or was, free to depose her.
As for the “Dee Dee Lied” allegations, the defense is going to need proof that it was her that claimed to be 16 years old, and not Crump himself, possibly even mistakenly.
Then there is the “did you go to the hospital OR SOMETHING” business on the interview with BDLR.
I think the defense is going to encounter an uphill battle here if they want to prove her a liar in open court. They can make the claim in public and to the press all they want, but whatever she said or didn’t say to Crump is quite unlikely to be presented by the prosecution as evidence at trial anyway.
Civil Case settled Wrongful death against HOAhttp://m.globalgrind.com/news/trayvon-martins-parents-tracy-martin-sybrina-fulton-settle-wrongful-death-claim-details
Good for them. The HOA clearly knows it could lose, and lose big if this case went to trial and so it’s likely that their insurance company pushed for the settlement. I’m guessing by what is said in the article that the amount is greater than one million dollars, which is the limit on the policy but we won’t know because the agreement to settle in cases like this always includes a provision not to disclose the amount, and in this case who paid.
Of course the settlement does NOT prohibit another wrongful death suit agains the killer George Zimmerman, which I assume will also be forthcoming. He may not have any assets by the time his trial is over, but if he had seven dollars I hope he has to pay it over, and then some.
Money cannot replace a child but sometimes its the only thing that negligent corporations understand. The HOA allowed GZ to “patrol” with a loaded handgun for months on end and they were just “asking for trouble” IMO.
Money cannot replace a child but sometimes its the only thing that negligent corporations understand. The HOA allowed GZ to “patrol” with a loaded handgun for months on end and they were just “asking for trouble” IMO.
Exactly, if it cost money, they will pay attention. Video cameras that weren’t working, lights directly at working cameras obscuring the view. No lights on the dog walk. Shouldn’t that be the first job of the SPD if they are giving advise about safety? Let the insurance companies pay. That will make them put the pressure on these HOA’s to keep vigilantes at home and proper security measures in place.
Yep, if they want NW then the leader is going to be required to file monthly reports, keep membership records of who’s on the trees etc., patrols if any and if any members have firearms. They will also have to accept complaints from the community and set aside time to hold hearings on these complaints if need be {that is if the complaint isn’t something the HOA can’t handle with a unilateral decision). And they will have to seek to have complaints answered once they’re filed. No more simply hustling the complainant out of the meeting.
If Attorney Crump can prove that a complainant was hustled out of a meeting, instead of having his or her complaint heard/recorded/filed/answered, then the HOA officers are guilty of personal failure to perform their duty as officers of the HOA. Not only should they be sued by Attorney Crump, but they should be sued by the homeowners as well.
Money cannot replace a child but sometimes its the only thing that negligent corporations understand. The HOA allowed GZ to “patrol” with a loaded handgun for months on end and they were just “asking for trouble” IMO.
I understand the bit about negligent corporations learning lessons only via payments but in the UK the payments are fines with the monies going to compensate victims of crime are not so lucky as to be killed by an insured. In fact over here compensation for the wrongful death of a child is tiny (£2,000 each year lost up to 18) as it is to compensate the bereavement not the loss of earnings etc. that obviously has must be factored in for a dead spouse, parent, etc. Even the multi million pound awards given to children left disabled are generally set in trust so as they cover the needs for the victims life, and, iirc, on death return to the public fund ready to serve another victim when awarded.
The thinking behind it is in line with what you say, i.e. no amount can “compensate” a parent for the loss of a child, but for a parent to suddenly become super rich as a consequence of the death of a child in violent circumstances is not seen to be the answer. A friend of mine lost a child in horrible circumstances and despite needing the money she donated every penny in her daughter’s name to building a school in an African village. For her the very thought of getting any pleasure from it filled her with sadness and horror. Her compensation is now visiting the village each year to see how the children their progress. The Martins look like the kind who will use any monies awarded wisely and kindly, perhaps to repay some of the generous help from co workers Sybrina received and to create a foundation to help other victims of SYG. I do hope I am right and not just the “incurable romantic” the bloggers at DWman have called me!
The trouble is, the HOA could not faithfully exercise it’s executive functions, because the individuals who populated it’s official posts, refused to discharge their duties. The faithful discharge of the duties of the HOA’s executive function, would have protected the HOA from much of the liability it suffered thereby.
Obviously the HOA could not do anything itself, it had to rely upon the people who served as it’s operators. Looking at what Caracker did before he ran away from the HOA, and then looking at what a HOA official said and then retracted as a witness to the horrid event, we come to understand that, the HOA was populated with people who did not want to interfere with a process that they personally had approved of secretly.
Thus they personally prevented the HOA from performing it’s executive functions, of accepting and entertaining complaints against the NW and looking into them or demanding an explanation or holding a hearing where the parties could have their say. So they too should be facing suit.
LLMPapa is taking the speculative idea that TM was spotted by GZ in Colonial Village and he’s running with it in his latest video. He uses a twitter message from Robert Z jr, to back up the idea, one where RZjr says that GZ didn’t call the police right away, and that something else besides walking home made him suspicious. It’s a loaded message, I’ll agree but I’m worried about the water getting muddied here. The proof of criminal activity starts with the NEN call and the activity of GZ profiling the teen and then following him with his car as a jury will hear and be shown happened. Events that occurred earlier in the evening may not be as easy to prove, and I’m wondering if someone isn’t maybe trying to sow confusion intentionally here somehow. Not LLMpapa, of course but maybe RZjr?
I don’t know the date of the tweet by RZjr however and mostly I’m just confused at the moment. Does anyone else have a strong opinion on all this?
I also sometimes wonder if RZjr isn’t an agent provocateur, in cahoots with MOM to sow confusion in the ranks of the supporters of TM’s family, and to bait the donors with “dog whistles” and outright racist statements.
I like LLMpapa’s videos just fine, but they seem to have a greater impact on the conventional wisdom of case followers than perhaps they should when he is simply presenting yet another speculative theory that lacks public proof just yet. If someone here had pointed out that tweet, and juxtaposed it with the written letter by W8/Dee Dee, would it have as much weight? I don’t know. I tend to doubt it. It’s A theory, but we all know that many things are possible – and that what GZ claims happened is not possible. But lets face it, after TM left the 7Eleven store, we don’t really know what happened exactly. He seems to have used the short cut, according to Dee Dee but that’s always been a strong possibility anyways.
Maybe the GPS data will back up the idea that GZ was “patrolling” his sister’s complex that night, but even then it’s hardly proof that he spotted TM at the time and then followed him to the RATL. I’m not sure how to make that stick in a court of law as proof of stalking or profiling. For this theory to work in the prosecution’s favor, they are going to need proof of a “tip off” I’d say.
My guess is that BDLR knew of the theory that GZ had somehow had Trayvon followed from the store all the way home. But, since it wasn’t necessary, because he would not use any such theory without hard evidence, he did not release the handwritten statement. NOW, however, something has changed. Perhaps he took a cue from what Tchoupi and Whonoze were able to learn by carefully scrutinizing the cctv’s at RATL, and so he decided to give the other collected cctv discs a thorough going over. If so, they may now have something in their work product, that they do not have to disclose, but that is clear evidence of something much more nefarious, starting even earlier than we believed.
Like, for instance, if those many cameras caught the 3 stooges following Trayvon out and back. That would be devastating. You could even make a M1 case, because of the way these guys hid their faces at the 711. So, who knows? But, because a trial holds the possibility that there may be even more charges, made in a dramatic fashion as someone is uncovered during the course of the trial, woo woo, no plea deal at all for Fogen.
Okay, against my own better judgement I’m going to jump into the colonial village speculation waters and paddle around a little bit. I’ve always thought it was possible that TM used a shortcut to enter the RATL, but even more possible is the idea that GZ conflated the story about what happened months before near Frank Taaffe’s unit out of convenience in the forming of his false narrative, using details from that incident to bolster the supposed veracity of his false narrative, having NOT spotted the teen there at all, but only later when the youth was at the mail kiosk on TTL.
The main problem with using Taaffe’s side of the building as the shortcut is that it isn’t a short cut unless the person using it knows how to thread their way best through the Colonial Village, and if they are that savvy, why not go home the southern route thru the RATL once you have started in that way?
Then there is the idea of the mail kiosk at Colonial Village somehow being a spot where TM may have rested to get out of the rain. Again, it’s NOT the shortest route to stop there. It’s not even close to the shortest route, in fact. If TM was at the mail kiosk in CV, what was his route to get there?
So many questions, so much speculation and not a whole lot of easy logic can explain these problems.
I do think it is probable that TM entered the RATL using a shortcut. I think if I were walking to 7ELeven I’d follow the utility lines that skirt the north edge of CV. At the corner of Rinehart and Town Center, I’d leave to roadway and walk straight along w the wires to the intersection of Oregon and Hillwood. But at that point, why go into the CV complex at all? I’d stay on Oregon, wouldn’t you?
But one thing bothers me – and that is the idea that ‘s proxy spokespersons mentioned the teen going “between the buildings.” Is this a cryptic reference to TM in Colonial Village somehow? I’d have to revisit those exact quotes to truly examine that idea. Because in the composite (false) narrative that GZ told SPD there isn’t any “between the buildings” until TM heads to the dog walk for the second (lol) time after doubling back, and “skipping away” (hannity interview).
We just don’t have information other than DD’s statement. Like you always say “Many things are possible, what GZ claims is not possible”.
Unless that was not GZ’s car on TTL at the time of the nen call, Trayvon was at the Mail shade and GZ didn’t follow him there.
If there are gps records we’ll find out during the trial, if not we’ll probably never know.
One irking thing about all this Colonial Village BS is that in her BdlR interview, DeeDee is quite clear that Trayvon was “under the mail thing… inside the gated community,” i.e. RATL. So all of this speculation about some other mail area just feeds the “DeeDee changes her story after coaching by the Scheme Team” narrative spun out by the CTH and TalkLeft. IMHO, the Loungers will support ANY hypothesis that makes GZ seem more demonic: ‘Yes, he was stalking Trayvon all the way back from the 7-11!” Never mind that this contradicts the sworn statement by your ‘star’ witness, and all the physical evidence. Grrrghhh.
The various conspiracy theories over in the lounge really are starting to get just short of involving UN black helicopters.
I was thinking maybe different “mail thing” because she seems to get him started at it so early in the 18 minute call that having him burn off the time there seems to put him coming through one of the shortcuts somewhere in the vague vicinity of when Zimmerman supposedly first saw him, and I don’t see Zimmerman as having the smarts to have this whole story prepared in advance to serve as a script for the call while whatever’s really happening happens instead.
In other words, I’m still expecting what really happened (whatever that was) to at least in general terms match up with what we hear on the NEN call.
If the NEN call was scripted, how come he goes off script so badly in the post shooting interviews? How does he know someone in a car didn’t drop Martin off at the front gate to dash to the mailboxes to wait out the rain? Someone who would pop up in a day or so and say “Hell no that boy didn’t come through by Taaffe’s house, I gave him a ride!”
Even leaving out the conspiracy theories and trying to apply Occam’s Razor, this case is confusing enough.
Meanwhile back at the lounge, they’re convinced Martin was too terrified to move as Zimmerman pinned him to the ground with only his rear end and knees as he used one hand to grab the sweatshirts and the other hand to fire the gun, and a boy who just a couple of years earlier was regarded by his opponents on the football field as a tough come at you hard competitor just lies there frozen.
And of course the guy who called in a couple of plate numbers is a big part of the police contingent that were in on the conspiracy ahead of time.
Which all wouldn’t be so bad if the answer to “what exactly was the evidence for that?” wasn’t [insert emotional rant here].
unitron
amsterdam1234
April 6, 2013 at 11:37 AM
Meanwhile back at the lounge, they’re convinced Martin was too terrified to move as Zimmerman pinned him to the ground with only his rear end and knees
Isn’t that GZ’s story?
boy who just a couple of years earlier was regarded by his opponents on the football field as a tough come at you hard competitor
By opponents you mean those other tough come at you hard 13 year olds?
onlyiamunitron
April 6, 2013 at 11:49 AM
“By opponents you mean those other tough come at you hard 13 year olds?”
I guantee you that some of the kids he went up against were at least as much bigger than he was then, ratio-wise, as Zimmerman was that night compared to his size at 17.
Just because he wasn’t out mugging tourists in Miami each day doesn’t mean he was a total wimp.
unitron
onlyiamunitron
April 6, 2013 at 11:51 AM
And I do seem to remember Zimmerman’s version of the story, accurate or not, including Martin doing more with his hands than just grabbing a shirt and holding a gun, so, no, that was not GZ’s story.
And what was GZ doing with his hands, while Trayvon pinned him to the ground with his 50lbs lighter ass and knees?
amsterdam1234
April 6, 2013 at 1:37 PM
I guantee you that some of the kids he went up against were at least as much bigger than he was then, ratio-wise, as Zimmerman was that night compared to his size at 17.
You guantee[sic] that? What is your certainty based on? You seem kind of loose with the facts here.
onlyiamunitron
April 7, 2013 at 8:14 AM
“You guantee[sic] that? What is your certainty based on? You seem kind of loose with the facts here.”
Because I’ve seen kids football teams around that age range over a wide range of years this past half century or so, and there’s considerable variation in height and weight.
I don’t know how tall Trayvon was at that age, but from the pictures I know he wasn’t the heaviest kid in the league unless it was a very, very abnormal group of teams specially selected to be so. (which of course doesn’t happen)
He went up against kids as much bigger than him, proportionately, as Zimmerman was that night.
He had some experience in taking a licking and keeping on ticking.
I believe what unitron is referring to is the culture of American football, specifically it’s physicality and machismo. Wimps do not go out for football. Especially in the South. Football players are not thugs, nor do they learn fighting skills. But they learn a ‘fighting’ attitude. The idea is to run in to someone, knock them beack, or knock them down, hitting them with your padded shoulder. And you’re taught not to give up: “when the going gets tough the tough get going” etc. ad infinitum.
Another cliche: It’s not the size of the dog in the fight, but the sie of the fight in the dog. High school kids aren’t that heavy, and as a receiver, Trayvon would rarely if ever have gone hard at any 200 lb-ers. I don’t know when exactly he quit football. I’m pretty sure he wasn’t on the team the year of his death, but I believe he played past 13, maybe through sophomore year? But I can guarantee you that in freshman or sophomore ball in Florida, he would have been taking on defensive backs, who though they may have been even lighter than Trayvon, could open a can of whoop-ass on GZ and leave him looking like a red-headed step-child… and I’m not talking about fisticuffs necessarily, just, you know, “wrestling”.
Of course, I got crucified in the Lounge when I noted that football players are trained NOT to be passive in physical encounters. As Zimmerman must be the demonic slayer in the liturgy there, so must Trayvon be ithe nnocent lamb going gently to the slaughter. As if any resistance on Trayvon’s part somehow makes him partly culpable, which is just utterly ridiculous.
onlyiamunitron
April 7, 2013 at 8:04 AM
Yeah, I wasn’t ready for the sudden onslaught of belief in Trayvon the pussified wimp that seemed to spring up out of nowhere when I tried to get a straight answer as to exactly what forensic evidence proves Zimmerman had Martin pinned to the ground when he shot him, but then Zimmerman’s “combat experience” took me by surprise the other day as well.
unitron
wassointeresting
April 7, 2013 at 8:30 AM
Briefly coming out of lurk mode to say this. People who believe they are for Justice for Trayvon people, while well-intentioned, are not doing his family or his memory a favor by characterizing him as a helpless child. Yes, he was unarmed, innocent of any crimes that may have been suspected of him and did not deserve to be followed, creeped out and shot. So no matter what he was, a clumsy teenager or a football hulk, it was going to be a losing battle against a gun and a paranoid watch guy. Aside from what the implications of a bloody nose and head boo boos would be in court, I’m betting that deep down, his friends and family, all smiled at least internally to think that their son went down fighting, and that it was THEIR son and friend that was standing his ground.
(crawling back into my cave again now…..)
IIRC and IMBW, wasn’t DD’s first word about Trayvon taking shelter “plaza”, then “shade thing” as well as “another apartment” which may have been before or after just can’t remember. I’ll have to read the transcripts and listen to the tapes again but I thought this was the order and that “mail shed” then “mail boxes” came after.
Yes, but note that “apartment” is singular and comes in a context where ‘another’ could well have been used to distinguish the ‘shade thing’ from Brandi Green’s townhome, as to where Trayvon went.
@whonoze
I must go back to tapes and transcripts because to be honest I can’t recall in what context DD first used “another apartment” when recounting her tale. It may be that before it was interpreted as one thing but since DD’s letter “another apartment” is being interpreted as going to “another complex”, i.e. travelling through it, because that is what her “letter” writes but as you note it could refer to something else.
Hmmm… It just occurred to me that GZ didn’t have to be coming from home when the cctv caught him coming north on RVC west. He could very well have been out on the road following TM, making him antsy enough to dodge through CV to avoid him. Then GZ could enter RATL via the east gate and come up north on RVC west the long way around.
Are you saying, Lonnie that GZ was maybe following TM on Rineholt all the way before the colonial village entrance? And then when he lost him he eventually went to the east entrance of RATL? That seems preposterous to me…
Many things are possible; what GZ claims happened is not possible.
To drive slow following TM on Rineholt from the 7Eleven he’d be risking a rear end collision. To pass the north entrance purposefully seems nonsensical as well.
Also of course we don’t know what cars are seen on RVC, they are just headlights IMO. There is that ONE frame that seems to show a vehicle but it’s certainly not proof positive of much.
What we do know, and amsterdam mentions it above, is that a car trolls the mail kiosk at the RATL right before the nen call starts, and then likely returns to a spot the GZ personally marked on a map (before changing his story to something demonstrably false quickly and suspiciously). And that if that car is NOT GZ’s car, then he was never anywhere near the clubhouse at all, and his entire NEN call is a bizarre clairvoyant fantasy that was a prelude to the oddest coincidence in the universe.
In other words, we know what happened already. GZ trolled the mail kiosk and called NEN, doubled back and began stalking the teen with his car and then on foot.
Whatever happened before then is a mystery and is likely to remain so. Maybe the GPS will tell us something but I’m not counting on it. I think it may be more likely that GZ’s texts and phone calls will be suggestive or proof of a tip off, but again it doesn’t matter. The guy is provably lying and is own false narrative is going to sink his credibility with the jury.
Well no… I’m not saying he did that, but I’m simply saying that there is a route he could have taken that would have had the same effects as the one we’ve seen.
You should not say, however, that it would not make any sense for him to pass up the front gate and go to south Oregon ave to enter using the back gate. If this was one of his options, he definitely would avoid the front gate, knowing the cameras would catch him passing the clubhouse. He’d want to use the back gate to avoid them so that; by coming down RVC west, he could pretend that he just left home for the store and spotted TM along the way.
What we need is a full and credible confession from the killer. That seems unlikely. I also don’t think he confided in his wife fully, and I’m not sure if he told Mark Osterman what really happened either. Mark O’Mara knows better than to ask him outright for the truth as well. Trayvon knew what was happening and he told Dee Dee as much as he could. It’s not certain that she is being 100% forthcoming or not, but she seems quite credible to me and I think she will be believed by a jury as well.
We know a truly great deal already, and are fortunate that we live in such an electronic age in some regards I suppose. Had NOTHING been recorded, GZ may have gotten away with murder.
Yes, you have no idea how badly. I’ve discovered a hint of an artifact that could work in GZ’s favor as far as the chase goes, but the reason it doesn’t work is, he never raised it. Instead him and his defense team is cowering behind useless motions and innuendo.
@willisnewton
I agree entirely with your statement:
But at that point, why go into the CV complex at all? I’d stay on Oregon, wouldn’t you?
but I would take it even further, as IMO, it is only worth taking a shortcut through CV if you also taken one through Lakes Edge. By crossing through both complexes you could save maybe a quarter of the total journey while by going via Oregon Av and CV, IMO you would not save anything as well as having the added disadvantage of a road trek with no awnings, buildings or even trees under which to shelter if it suddenly starts to pour.
re: a route thru Lakes Edge and CV to Taaffe’s “shortcut.”
I thought about that route months and months ago. It’s possible but quite complex and if scrutinized to that degree, probably would include a southern route thru the RATL as well.
Also there is topography (hillsides) that are difficult to interpolate between Lakes Edge and Colonial Village as well as some hedges and maybe drystack walls to navigate…
And again none of these routes seems to pass the CV mail kiosk anyway.
Many things are possible, including the idea that GZ saw TM leaving the RATL on his way to 7Eleven, but if he had wouldn’t he assume the suspicious (ie, black) person lived elsewhere and was on a path to return home?
Then finally we get to, how does one prove any of this in court? The best I could come up with would be the idea that GZ texted someone or received a text that would prove a tip off, or that GZ was tailing the teen thru CV, but that GZ in his brilliance deleted the texts and assumed he was in the clear after that, but that the information was retrieved eventually by the state’s investigation. And I think that sounds far fetched as well.
Even if there were GPS of a detailed path both persons took to the 7Eleven and back thru LE and CV, I’m not sure that PROVES much given the built-in non-acuracy of precisely positioning cell phones thru forensics after the fact.
But I’m willing to be surprised… and eagerly await the trial to find out as much as we can about all this.
Again the only thing in support of a LE to CV route theory that I can come up with is the proxy statements of GZ supporters who claim TM was “between the buildings” in a suspicious manner. According to GZ’s combined bullshit, he never actually saw TM between any buildings really until he had a fist in his face. So where did those statements come from? I tend to think they are conflated by GZ’s family members from the overall story, and that’s all, but we don’t know.
There is the POSSIBILITY again that these statements have a genesis in something GZ told family/ friends about inculpatory actions prior to the NEN call, but didn’t tell the SPD. Again, I don’t see this as the most likely occurrence, but one never knows.
Where do I say Trayvon was whimp? Unitron ridicules the idea that GZ would’ve been able to control Trayvon, while at the same time pulling down the shirt with one hand and shooting with the other, conveniently forgetting that having a gun in one hand adds a bit of control rather than subtract.
I reminded Unitron that that is exactly what GZ claims Trayvon did to him. What was GZ doing with his hands? This 200lbs ex-bouncer, who had been arrested for slamming an officer into a wall, would’ve just been laying helpless on the ground? GZ had no defensive wounds on his hands and arms.
Assuming GZ was in control of the situation doesn’t turn Trayvon into a whimp. But the technique necessary to tackle another person is very different than the techniques used to subdue and restrain.
There are several positions that are consistent with the forensic evidence available. Trayvon sitting on top of GZ is not consistent with the forensics. Therefore GZ is lying.
“There are several positions that are consistent with the forensic evidence available. Trayvon sitting on top of GZ is not consistent with the forensics.”
If by forensics you mean the way Zimmerman’s clothes looked much later that night after rubbing against the patrol car seat combined with “Smith is lying about what he saw”…
I believe by “forensic evidence” amsterdam is referring to GZ’s known weight and strength, her own martial arts experience, and the nature of Zimmerman’s wound and the lack thereof on TM. No matter how wiry he might have been, Trayvon could not have sat on top of GZ and pummeled him unless GZ had gone limp as a dishrag and put up no resistance whatsoever. As amsterdam has explained in previous threads, the sitting-on-top just isn’t sustainable against leverage. GZ would have to claim that Trayvon’s ‘first punch’ dazed him so badly he was unable to resist, yet somehow he was staggering, swimming or shimmying the 40 feet from the T to John’s backyard. (MTAPBWZSINP).
unitron’s post above did not “ridicule the idea that GZ would’ve been able to control Trayvon.” It took issue with the idea that through the entire encounter TM was “too terrified to move” and “just lay there frozen.” There was a physical struggle. The two men were “wrestling.” IMHO at some point, either by use of his gun or by some bouncer/air-marshal pain inducing hold GZ gained control and TM began screaming in anguish. So there’s no contradiction between Trayvon actively trying to resist, and Zimmerman using his skills or weapon to overcome that resistance and take control. But bring this up on FLLB and you’ll be raked over the coals. amsterdam began an argument with unitron in response to unitron’s assertion that Trayvon, as an ex-football-player, ws an unlikely candidate for wimphood. Thus, if you have a problem with someone merely saying, ‘I doubt TM was a passive frozen baby’ you may not be saying TM was a wimp, but that’s hardly an unreasonable inference from the point at which you have taken umbrage.
onlyiamunitron
April 7, 2013 at 11:02 PM
“I believe by “forensic evidence” amsterdam is referring to GZ’s known weight and strength, her own martial arts experience, and the nature of Zimmerman’s wound and the lack thereof on TM.”
That requires a remarkably elastic definition of “forensic evidence”.
There are different kinds of evidence.
The above falls into a different category, although “Zimmerman’s wound and the lack of any outside the gunshot and a small abraision on Martin proves Zimmerman had physical dominance of Martin the entire time” falls into the category of “Huh?”.
unitron
amsterdam1234
April 8, 2013 at 12:49 AM
I should’ve been clearer, with forensic evidence I meant the direction of the shot, the range of the shot and the misalignment of the holes in the shirt combined are inconsistent with Trayvon being on top when the shot was fired.
They both could’ve been standing, but I think w18 and w12 would’ve seen that.
They both could’ve been on their knees.
GZ could’ve been on top.
They both could’ve been on their sides.
I was trying to point out that GZ had a gun. You are way more likely not to fight if someone is pointing a gun at you, then if someone is throwing punches at you. If somebody is hitting you in your face, you use your hands and arms to protect your face. GZ has no defensive wounds on his arms and hands.
The witnesses said they weren’t fighting when the shot was fired, they didn’t hear people moving on the ground, they didn’t hear hitting, they didn’t hear grunting, sounds you would expect to hear if a fight was still occuring. If we assume that all things being equal neither party would’ve just played ragdoll, one of them must have had control over the other.
You can’t control someone by sitting on them and putting your hands on their face. You would control them with a hold grip, an armlock, a chokehold or a weapon. GZ didn’t claim Trayvon constrained him using any of these techniques, and we know Trayvon didn’t have a weapon. The shot couldn’t have been fired with Trayvon on top. GZ couldn’t have unholstered his gun from the position he said he was in. In short to quote Willisnewton ” Many things are possible, what GZ claims happened is not possible”.
The prosecution doesn’t have to show what position they were in when the shot was fired, they just have to show that what GZ claims is inconsistent with the evidence.
onlyiamunitron
April 8, 2013 at 1:02 AM
” You are way more likely not to fight if someone is pointing a gun at you…’
If I’m practically nose to nose with someone pointing a gun at me, I’m very unlikely to say “What are you following me for?” and if I think they’re about to pull the trigger I’m very likely to try to spoil their aim while I scream for help.
unitron
amsterdam1234
April 8, 2013 at 2:37 AM
I was talking about means of control. In your original argument you were contending that GZ would have been able to control Trayvon just with his ass and knees, if his hands were occupied with things such as holding a gun. Holding a gun would most definitely be a way to control someone.
You weren’t arguing that the theory was impossible, because Trayvon wouldn’t have been screaming, now were you?
I wasn’t arguing that GZ was holding the gun when the verbal altercation began, was I?
I happen to agree with you, that it is unlikely Trayvon would’ve been screaming if he had known, there was a gun pointed at him.
In my opinion, based on my experience in martial arts, the screams are most consistent with a person being held in an armlock. The most likely position of the 2 people involved, would’ve had the person who was being restrained, on his stomach or on his knees with his back towards the person restraining him.
Just before the shot is fired there is a last help. This help sounds as if the person calling for help is moving away from w11. We know they didn’t move south at that point. This could indicate there was a change in position seconds before the shot. I would say the person was screaming at first with his face towards w11’s patio, but that the last help was done with the person facing south, away from w11’s patio.
I would argue, GZ had Trayvon on his knees or stomach in an arm lock, and that he turned him around seconds before he shot him.
Do I know this for a fact? No, but it is consistent with the forensic evidence we know about.
onlyiamunitron
April 8, 2013 at 3:46 AM
“In your original argument you were contending that GZ would have been able to control Trayvon just with his ass and knees, if his hands were occupied with things such as holding a gun.”
Well, no, actually others were making that claim and I was disagreeing with them.
But so many loungers lept in to obfusticate each other’s ignorance of what kind of evidence is and is not forensic evidence that it’s difficult to keep track of which particular bit of twaddle originated with which.
Were the knees of Trayvon’s pants much more soaked than the rest of them?
That would be forensic evidence pointing to Zimmerman forcing him into a kneeling position, and I’d think that the police would have noticed it early on.
unitron
amsterdam1234
April 8, 2013 at 3:36 AM
I also don’t believe GZ would’ve been screaming, if he were in the position he claimed he was, or doing what he said he was doing. That is not how the brain works. His attention would’ve been focussed on getting out from under Trayvon, or on getting his gun out. If he was being hit or “suffocated” his first instinct would’ve been self-preservation through fight or self-defense. Not by solliciting help from outsiders.
Being held in an armlock however, prevents one from fighting, or fleeing because every movement would excaserbate the pain.
amsterdam1234
April 8, 2013 at 4:26 AM
“In your original argument you were contending that GZ would have been able to control Trayvon just with his ass and knees, if his hands were occupied with things such as holding a gun.”
My mistake, I meant wouldn’t have been able to control Trayvon.
So you agree that your argued that you thought that GZ couldn’t have controlled Trayvon just with his ass and knees, if his hands were occupied with handeling a gun.
That was your argument, not that Trayvon wouldn’t have screamed if a gun was pointed at him.
Were the knees of Trayvon’s pants much more soaked than the rest of them?
That would be forensic evidence pointing to Zimmerman forcing him into a kneeling position, and I’d think that the police would have noticed it early on.
.
Do you have any evidence that any of the police officers made an examination or remarked upon the relative dampness of Trayvon’s clothes?
Or is your argument that since they didn’t make a note of the fact that Tayvon’s knees were relatively more wet than other parts of his clothes, he couldn’t have been straddling GZ, because that would’ve meant his knees would’ve been on the ground?
The tragedy in this is that GZ immediately admitted to doing the shooting. Case closed. And I don’t mean coverup and all that. I mean they know who shot the victim and the shooter is not disputing it. So no NEED to look for a bit more water here, a bit less grass there.
Had they found a body and the shooter had run away, or several people standing around all pointed at each other and said “he dunnit” then they’d have had to look more closely, to see HOW THE SHOOTING HAPPENED.
By the time the “re-enactment” made it obvious that the “how precisely” was going to matter, it was too late to look for dampness.
I favour on their sides. You can do an armlock from that position, rolling the victim partly onto his front by doing it. Also gets you raised off the ground to be able to reach a gun in a hip holster.
But this makes him loosen the armlock a little, where Trayvon (or rather his adrenalin) decides the extra pain is better than getting shot, and tries to roll out of it. He would have to roll onto his back and further, to get enough purchase with his knees to stand up and run. GZ then grabs the shirts, in a tight twisted bunch, to pull him back again.
(In the lie detector thingy video, he VERY clearly demonstrates a grab, pulling towards himself, twisting to the his left which would tighten the fabric against his lower arm. Verbally he calls it wrist control, but the demonstrated position isn’t anywhere an attacker’s wrist could be).
Following through on that grab-and-pull would end up with Trayvon on his stomach, the bottom arm under, the formerly twisted top arm spread out. GZ might have to do a bit of a roll himself to get clear. And may have picked up a bit of grass like Smith said (which would have fallen off in the cruiser, the station bathroom etc). Then roll back onto his back for the frisking.
He wasn’t spreading the arms to restrain him. He was tucking the “loose” arm under him and had to say something in case someone saw that position (as people were out by then).
This is also how GZ does not need 3 hands — ..the left-hand movements (armlock, shirt-grab) are consecutive, not simultaneous, exchanging one control for another as Trayvon tries to get out of the first.
amsterdam1234
April 9, 2013 at 2:48 AM
@Aussiekay,
I like the on their sides position. Austin saw a man from the back, on his side. I’ve always been sure that the 2nd person was blocked from Austin’s view by the person he saw. Austin was outside, so his eyes would’ve been better adjusted to the darkness.
So they are on their right sides, heads in the direction of the T. Trayvon’s back is towards GZ. Trayvon’s face would be towards w11 patio. GZ has Trayvon’s left arm in an armlock with his left hand behind Trayvon’s back. Too bad they didn’t get nail scrapings from GZ. That small cut on Trayvon’s finger may have been caused by GZ’s fingernail.
GZ lifts his right hip or moves sideways to a sitting position, to get his gun. That probably would release the lock on Trayvon’s shoulder enough for him to roll out of the arm lock. He would’ve to roll towards GZ to get his arm free. I think he would’ve rolled to his back and towards a sitting position to get the shoulder released from the lock. So Trayvon may be sitting or moving towards a sitting position facing south east GZ gets into a sitting position facing west, he grabs the shirts with his left hand and pulls Trayvon down and towards him and shoots.
I had to get to this point, visualizing and typing before I got your remark about the loose arm.
I think this is a very likely theory. If this is the case, I think Trayvon would’ve been shot with both of them in a sitting position.
onlyiamunitron
April 9, 2013 at 2:54 AM
“That small cut on Trayvon’s finger…”
…was referred to as an abrasion, not a cut or laceration, by the people who actually did the autopsy.
I hope I am not causing you another headache. I promised I wouldn’t go medieval on Unitron again, and attack the person.
I don’t disagree that some of the theories on Leatherman are baseless and sometimes just ridiculous. But showing that an argument against GZ is not based in fact or reality, is not in it self proof that GZ’s narrative is based in fact or reality.
I think I am applying Unitron’s standards of critical discourse, when I am arguing against his positions. But if the tone bothers you I’ll stop my interactions with unitron.
“But showing that an argument against GZ is not based in fact or reality, is not in it self proof that GZ’s narrative is based in fact or reality.”
Of course it isn’t, but when someone says ” ‘X’ proves ‘Y’ “, it has nothing to do with taking sides to either point out problems with that argument, or to say “Where are you getting ‘X’ from?”.
Unitron
I am not disagreeing with you that some of the theories at Leatherman are not based on facts, as a matter of fact I actually went back to check documents so I could make an informed argument against the Bernosky ct.
But I find your counter arguments not very convincing either. LLMpapa makes some very good arguments in his videos, and some very bad ones. You may not like his style but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have a valuable voice in the discourse.
It is very easy to just cut down and belittle other people’s work, but you would be more believable if you would put something out there yourself for other people to nitpick apart.
onlyiamunitron
April 8, 2013 at 6:03 AM
” LLMpapa makes some very good arguments in his videos, and some very bad ones.”
Hard for me to tell.
When someone turns out videos with carefully selected soundtrack music designed to play to one’s emotions and lots of “look how creative I am” graphic effects (instead of keeping the picture still long enough to let me figure out what I’m looking at), I figure what I’m being offered isn’t information, but something somewhere between propaganda and an editorial, so I rarely bother to look at them.
And his tendency to let said music drown out people’s voices when I’m trying to hear what they’re saying (otherwise why include them if not for them to be heard), well that doesn’t make me any more likely to watch his stuff.
“…you would be more believable if you would put something out there yourself for other people to nitpick apart.”
You learn more by asking questions.
I’m not out to be believable, I’m out to see what (and who) is believable.
I didn’t decide what I believed about what happened that night and only then start looking at the evidence with a great deal of emotional investment in finding confirmation and avoiding contradiction. I started looking at the evidence with an open mind trying to figure out what happened that night.
Students in a classroom are given assignments, books, and study material. They take in knowledge and then ask questions for things they don’t understand or need to have clarify.
Unitron, you have assigned a position to everyone else to be your teacher. There are times you take a position through your questions that conveys you don’t do your homework because it’s more entertaining to just keep asking questions of everyone else.
Personally, I don’t see other bloggers as my teacher neither students but rather, peers. . Many of us have our own area of concentration. At times, the area of concentration is based on experience and/or education. Do I learn from them? Yes. Do I obligate them to answer my questions? No. Do I answer their questions when I know the answer? Yes. Do they obligate me to point them in the direction of evidence if I were to say, for instance, that what they are looking for was stated in the Feb. 5th hearing? No.
IOWs, if you want to learn, it requires that you put time into the subject and then if you have a question, ask it.
Personally again, there are times I read your questions and responses and think of you as a 13 year old practicing on how to upset girls as a form of flirting.
amsterdam1234
April 8, 2013 at 6:59 AM
Obviously LLMpapa’s videos are not for you. But guess what your opinions and tastes are not the gold standard.
You learn more by asking questions.
If the answer is already implied in the question, asking questions is used as a rethorical device, not as a way to learn from others. I don’t object to using that device, I’ve used it myself in a couple comments to you earlier, which by the way you didn’t bother to reply to. Pretending that you are seeking information in those cases, signals to me that you are not interested in having a serious debate about the facts.
For example this sentence written by you
I didn’t decide what I believed about what happened that night and only then start looking at the evidence with a great deal of emotional investment in finding confirmation and avoiding contradiction.
Here you are making an argument who you are not like without specifying who that person you are not like is. You are not saying anything about yourself.
Who is this person you are talking about who decided first what happened that night and only then started looking at evidence with a great deal of emotional investment in finding confirmation and avoiding contradiction?
How did you find out all this information about this person, without looking at that person with a great deal of emotional investment in order to find confirmation and avoid contradiction about the nature of this person you claim not to be like?
And what makes this undefined person relevant to the conversation we are having?
I don’t object to using that device, I’ve used it myself in a couple comments to you earlier, which by the way you didn’t bother to reply to.
He did the same to me a few days ago on Leatherman’s blog. First, he started out answering, but his answers included the kitchen sink. He refused to stay on the subject and continued referring to Witness 8 when the subject had nothing to do with her. After I told him I was staying on point, he said he needed to get some sleep and would answer later. However, he continued posting comments to others — more questions — twisted and belittling.
I don’t totally disregard him, but I do make an effort not to get into the personal back and forth. If you noticed, I’ve held my tongue for several days now.
amsterdam1234
April 8, 2013 at 7:37 AM
Hi xena,
Yes I noticed. Whonoze and others on this site have a different opinion about Unitron. They are of the opinion Unitron is cynical, but at heart is trying to find the truth. I value their opinion, so I am trying to find that honest truth seeking core in Unitron, in my own not to subtle pitbull terrier way.
In my opinion, a real cynic stays true to his cynicisme when observing himself.
amsterdam1234
April 8, 2013 at 11:49 AM
@Xena,
I guess I hadn’t seen the latest intteration yet. 😒
It is kind frustrating to see that LLMpapa’s video about the other complex is now the new truth on FL.
Let me give you the facts, so maybe you can help keep things on the straight and narrow on FL.
There was a car trolling the mail area on TTL around the time of the nen call. If that was not GZ in his car, he never was on TTL during the nen call. I don’t think that is likely. The way the car moved and stopped in front of the mail area, makes it clear that the person in that car was observing someone standing in the mail shade.
It takes about 14 to 15 minutes to walk from the 7 eleven to the mail area in RATL. Trayvon left the 7 eleven at 6:30 pm. At 6:55 pm you can see that it is raining hard in the eastpool video. It seems relatively dry from 6:46 to 6:54 in the eastpool video.
At 6:38 in the bank video, it appears it is raining. So somewhere between 6:38 and 6:46 it stopped raining or at least the rain turned into a drizzle.
If we are to believe DD, and I have no reason not to, Trayvon ran into the complex and under the mail shade at 6:54. That would mean it took him about 24 minutes, or 10 minutes longer than Google indicates the walk from the 7 eleven to the mail shade at RATL would take. It would make sense he stopped earlier to take cover from the rain in one of the breezeways in
CV. The mail area in CV is on the west side of the complex.
Somebody on TL has taken pictures of CV, the mail area there, the breezeways and the dirt path connecting Rinehart rd and Oregon ave.
The person who took the pictures, couldn’t find a way to get into LE during the day. I think it is a safe bet, Trayvon couldn’t get in there at night.
If Trayvon would’ve entered CV, before the main entrance into the complex, he would’ve left the dirt path and ran towards the appartment buildings via the parkinglot bordering the dirt path.
Past the main entrance, the appartment buildings bordering Oregon ave.
Even if he had entered via the main entrance, the mail area wouldn’t be the obvious place, to hide from the rain, since it is of of the main road.
I do think Trayon found shelter at CV for a short while. I actually always thought he may have, because of the time it took him to get to RATL.
The most logical spot for him to take cover, would’ve been one of the breezeways, not the mail shade.
I’ll post this now before I lose it, I’ll get you a link to the photos.
amsterdam1234
April 8, 2013 at 12:04 PM
@ Xena
Here is a set of pictures that includes 2 pictures of the dirt path. One of them looking towards Rinehart, the other towards Oregon ave.
@amsterdam1234 Thanks for the pictures. I’ve not placed much interest into examining the where’s of Trayvon — think that the clubhouse videos are very damaging to GZ’s story. What I have and still do wonder about is the importance of the M&I Bank video in support of the State’s case. If someone at that bank called GZ, and with the State having GZ’s phone records, they will know. They might not know the content of the conversation, but they will know the timing.
amsterdam1234
April 8, 2013 at 12:08 PM
@Xena,
Here is a set of Colonial village. The first photo is a shot of the appartment buildings from Oregon Ave.
amsterdam1234
April 8, 2013 at 12:21 PM
It is itteration not intteration. If you think auto correct is an irritant, you’ve never tried typing english while your ipad insists on replacing your words with dutch words.
You’re arguing the substance, not making an ad hominem attack. And you’re not being snarky about it, but taking the debate seriously. You’re getting Enlightenment on some ideas rather than getting medieval on anyone’s tuchas. Carry on.
I am sorry to say I am largely responsible for the fresh CV-mailbox issue over there.
When it came out as attachment to BDLR’s brilliant rebuttal of O’mara, I typed up DeeDee’s “letter”. And remarked that it mentioned the other complex, which she had also mentioned in the first interview tape. .I even mentioned someone, I think Trent Sawyer, making a video showing Trayvon walking through there.
So they grab and run with it. Not really knowing the evidence at all. (Getting a bit sick of that, eg at least 10 times now I’ve had to post that GZ DID have a wallet with him).
Anyway. DeeDee never said “mailbox” or “mail-shed”. She said “awning” or “overhang” at the point where she was referring to the other complex (CV). The interviewer/interrupter is the first to mention mail something, shed or boxes, I can’t recall. And she sort of agrees, imagining that he knows what the place looks like, so yes that must have been the spot Trayvon mentioned as awning.
This “drags” Trayvon to the RATL mailboxes maybe 5 to 10 minutes earlier than he really got there. DeeDee said nothing to indicate he was at the MAIL in Colonial Village. Just awnings or cover. So Amsterdam’s breezeways fit that nicely. DeeDee says nothing about his being followed or stared at until 2 or 3 “and then he says” later, each of which could be covering 2 to 5 minutes.
The melodrama about “little sis” being the tipster…. well. There was one of his police calls worried about a “little sister” living in Colonial Village. But that was in 2005. Someone dug up a Grace Zimmerman on some website, with a CV address. But (a) aged mid 30s which would not make her LITTLE sis and (b) we don’t know her second name is Zimmerman and in fact I think that would be highly unlikely. This story was coming along very nicely about on par, for factual content, with the 3 stooges at 7-11 buying T and blunt and him selling them some weed.
That’s not to say GZ would not be familiar with CV, I’m sure he’d have driven around in there just for being a sticky-beak.
But he didn’t SEE Trayvon until he’d trolled up and down RVC looking for him, based on a tip-off long enough ago that T was no longer there by the time G got there…. so he had to go searching the likely route. Heaps of evidence pointing to this, ZERO pointing to seeing him in CV.
It is amazing isn’t it? It always fascinates me why and how people’s cognitive processes can be so different from each other.
I never paid much attention to his wallet, simply because the police didn’t process his car. It doesn’t matter to the case whether he had his wallet on his person or not, since he can always claim his wallet was in the car.
But after you mentioned it, I did go looking for it, and I couldn’t find Singleton mentioning the permit. I did find an interview with Smith, where Smith said GZ had a permit in his wallet. Now Smith assisted Serino, when GZ’s clothes were taken into custody after Shellie got the change of clothes for him.
Are you sure Singleton mentioned it too? Like I said, I don’t think it is relevant to the case, but it would be an interesting detail.
What fascinates me is how major pieces of evidence can be ignored by the vast majority of supposed case followers. The map that Singleton printed out and asked GZ to mark his positions on is to me a vital piece of evidence in the case and suggests the nature of GZ’s false narrative by including the probable position of his car facing the mail kiosk, as seen in the clubhouse pool video. GZ marked the placement of his car and then IMMEDIATELY retracted it and replaced the story with an obvious lie. How can so many people miss the connection?
People are flocking like birds to the “colonial village” theory which lacks any substantial proof whatsoever but ignore something made in the killer’s own handwriting that explains his false narrative so well…
You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him think.
In all fairness though, Willis, that hand drawn map was dreadful, a photocopy of a screenshot of a google map, barely legible. And the markings made no sense unless viewed in conjunction with listening to the Singleton interview.
It requires a lot of work. I don’t know how you guys process the information, but I’ve walked Tayvon’s path more times than I care to remember. The timing, the pieces of evidence, things people have said have become like a holodeck movie to me. When a new piece of evidence becomes available, I have to walk the path again to see where it fits and what its effect is on the complete picture. A new piece of evidence sometimes clarifies or solidefies the picture I have in my mind. Sometimes it destroys the picture and I have to start all over again.
I also think that one of the reasons may be what I consider the American habit to mythologize. This need to see one of two as all evil and the other as all good. I sometimes get the impression the answers people are looking for, is not the truth but that which confirms their myths. I see GZ and I see a guy with poor judgement and poor anger management skills, who should never have been allowed to walk around with a gun. I see Trayvon as a regular teenager. It bothers me when people talk about what a good kid he was, a kid who was going to be someone, a kid that mattered. That may very well be true about Trayvon, but I don’t think a kid that would’ve been caught stealing a cheap piece of electronics, deserves to be executed on a dog walk. If Trayvon would’ve been that kid, a social and economic failure like GZ, would’ve been bestowed with that hero status he so desperately needs.
Sometimes I think people are looking to have their myths confirmed, and reality s not what thy are interested in.
“I sometimes get the impression the answers people are looking for, is not the truth but that which confirms their myths….Sometimes I think people are looking to have their myths confirmed, and reality s not what thy are interested in.”
Who are you and what have you done with the real amsterdam1234?
Interrogating the evidence in high-publicity 'hate crimes', and the way it has been used and misused in the media, and by parties to the matter..
This site also has a broader goal: in the tradition of the Errol Morris film "The Thin Blue Line" it aims to use the specific case at hand to shed a bit of light onto broader questions of epistemology: how is it that we come to think we 'know' something, and what kinds of errors lead to bad conclusions? This site also has a more specific interest in what can an cannot be concluded from audio/visual media, and the many mistakes of omission and commission commonly made in the interpretation of A/V material
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Comments offering actual evidence in the cases under discussion, or rational analysis of either evidence or news coverage, are welcome. All comments will be moderated, and reviewed before appearing on the site (which might take me awhile,sorry). Any comments expressing bigotry against any parties will be deleted, and the authors will be banned. Any 'facts' derived from external sources must be clearly attributed with proper citations. A certain degree of speculation is allowable, as long as it is consistent with known facts, and clearly labeled as speculation.
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unitron
Re prosecution’s likelyhood of proving M2.
GPS and contemporaneous phone calls don’t explain what occurred in the missing minutes or who closed a gap or initiated physical struggle. IMO GZ’a credibility is nil even without GPS or phone calls, but piling on can’t hurt. I think a jury will come to a consensus through different paths that convince individual jurors of various reasons why GZ told a pattern of lies that can be extended into the missing minutes. If the prosecution shows beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ substitutes actions of his own for those of the unarmed teen – which he does IMO regarding “doubling back” then a jury will be outsiders in part on that angle. Others may find the Mia-match of holes in the jacket and undershirt to be significant – GZ omits any actions which his hands may have performed except to say he drew his gun and fired. This fits the pattern of his omission of moving his car to chase the teen. This is the WAY he lies and it fits the pattern of known lies. Voice exemplars may or may not convince experts but the emotional weight of the mother testifying she hears her son crying out for his life will certainly be powerful.
Is this “proof” of murder 2? A jury will have to decide based on the judges instructions,
I wonder what the judge will say to the jury in closing?
Spelling / auto correct errors
:jury will be outside = jury will be convinced
Mia-matched = mismatched
All this assuming no self incriminating outburst from GZ.
Agreed, the possibility exists for a “Perry Mason” style breakdown on the witness stand by the defendant but I wouldn’t bet the farm on it. In the first place, he isn’t at all likely to take the stand, ever, even if it means losing the case. He’d only be digging himself a deeper hole IMO come sentencing time if he allowed himself to be proven a liar on cross-examination.
Perhaps however you are referring to a spontaneous outburst in open court, like GZ calling someone a racial epithet or throwing a temper tantrum like a four year old child when things don’t go “his way.” That seems possible too. This guy is so full of pills that he rattles when he walks, I bet.
What I wish I could see/hear most of all is the FINAL “come to Jebus” meeting between GZ and his lawyer. Someone, somewhere, somehow has got to tell this guy he’s going to lose this case, and why. Will they put it politely and say “a jury simply is not going to find your story believable,” or will they come right out and say, “it’s clear you are a poor liar?”
I still think there is a huge chance that he will plead guilty before a trial ever starts. This last week I guess they got an earful from Dee Dee and they are going to have to assess where they stand now.
MO’M is doing a great deal of work to pander to his supporters but I haven’t seen him make any substantial strategic headway yet in the actual legal battle that is material to obtaining a favorable verdict for George.
MO’M’s best bet is to hope a jury isn’t convinced that the state has proven what happened in the missing minutes, and that DESPITE the obvious fact that his client is a proven liar, somehow the jury feels that the state didn’t prove a crime occurred “beyond a reasonable doubt.” It seems rather insane to hang one’s hopes on that however, so I think in the end they are going for the “dog whistle” approach. They want to get one person on the jury who will buy into the gun nutter’s fantasy of a “clean shoot” and refuse to ever see reason. They will play to both the racist element and also to the gun nut element and hope one or the other or both will convince a juror to be a lone holdout who cannot be swayed by his or her fellow jurors. That way they can at least get a hung jury, and GZ can sit around an apartment on bail for another few months.
Whonoze, today I stumbled across the comment that got you banned.
First one minor point then, a more basic comment about what puzzles me about Jeralyn’s application of her own existing or not existing rules.
I am in fact very, very close to you concerning the influence of police, but what may make the difference between us, is that you do not even need to suggest that there was some type of active influencing going on. To me it feels the witnessing of later events already may have been enough. Meaning explicit influence by the officers is not really necessary. That the officers took GZ’s narrative at face value and minor scratches seemed to support it, is already enough. Remember they all oversaw him surrender to police and admit he had shot Trayvon. Questions like: wouldn’t a murderer flee?, may have entered their minds and make them draw their own conclusions in similar ways as the officers did. Although they may well have felt they thought the same.
That said, the rule you supposedly infringed, although interestingly there is no rule against speculation in her “coming soon”/preliminary rules.
Strictly that is not exactly what you did, you speculated about the influence of Ayala (Smith) on the early report of witness # 6
Now isn’t this comment that follows shortly after your banishment, From Below, equally speculating about guilt combined with speculation about guilt, which is never treated as speculation if it follows GZ’s narrative;
Couldn’t one argue that while this lady or gentleman, tries heavily to avoid premediation from my perspective in a hilariously “balanced way”, at the same time she offers and explicit dive into Trayvon’s psyche, which is ultimately as speculative as what you wrote. All the while self-presenting her/himself good and righteous. Wouldn’t this strictly infringe against this rule on her blog?
combined with speculation about guilt intention.
I find it very strange she feels so comfortable among this mindset. But that is of course me, and I think she is more intelligent than that.
If we are going to engage in speculation about Jeralyn Merrit’s thought process, include me out. I banged my head against her group and her for many months, until I too was banned for asking questions no GZ supporter could provide a credible answer for. There’s no rhyme or reason to it that I could ever detect to what she deletes from her blog/ forums. It’s her blog and she deletes things she doesn’t like or can’t refute. The “rules” have little to do with it, although she often cites reasons for what she does. Any systematic analysis would rule that she does not enforce her own rules, nor does she follow them herself on occasion.
She’s a skilled, experienced criminal defense attorney who has drank the Koolaid since 1974, meaning she’s always going to stick up for the defendant, any defendant and ESPECIALLY the clearly guilty ones. That’s what she has dedicated her life to.
Some of you may not know this, but she worked for over a year defending Timothy McViegh, the Oklahoma City bomber and America’s worst domestic terrorist. She’s a person of strong principals and some of those principals seem to me to paint her as a libertarian extremist. She has a concealed carry permit and advocates for the reform of marijuana laws, which have indeed been rolled back in her home state of Colorado. She’s a progressive on many social issues and was appointed to high position in the Innocence Project, a very worthy anti-death penalty advocate group who do great work.
She hates me, but I kinda admire her, in the similar way that I admire Mark O’Mara. They both operate in a post-modern landscape where they know that one can manufacture consent with enough hot air. It’s not operating from a basis of reality, instead it attempts to create “reality” through sheer force of will and determination. This is the sort of bullshit that got us into a war with Iraq – if you repeat something often enough, a majority of half-intrerested parties will assume it is the truth.
People who “get things done” often bend the rules and see the truth as slant. Lyndon Johnson and Abraham Lincoln come to mind as politicians who “did the wrong thing for the right reasons” on many occasions. But there is another way to look at these things, and that is that these people are qualifying their dishonest actions by saying “the ends justify the means.”
Either we live in a nation of laws or we don’t. I like to hope that we do, but the fact that several known war criminals from the last presidential administration are not in prison after being brought to justice makes me think that we live in a land where the squeaky wheel gets the grease. And laws only apply to the powerless, seldom the powerful. I’ll get off the soapbox here but if I had to hazard a guess I’d say JM is simply a biased gun lover who took a stand early on in this case and can’t let go now without losing face.
We are close Willis, very close, at least what surfaced in your response is close to what this case makes me circle around, socialogical, psycholgical, racial, media studies and the larger Zeitgeist. …
If you don’t mind that people in foreign countries are bombed for no good reason beyond the fact that you are more powerful, why should you care if someone shoots a juvenile on your home ground. Bad luck. That’s about it. The powerful the ones without power a closed system. Not a word about the Iraq war on her blog before 2007, I think.
Xena linked to a symposium on the Trayvon Martin case.at the University of Florida. The above topic was addressed by Faye V. Harrison.(last speaker on the bottom of the page. But there was a multitude of other interesting contribution. And I was reminded of my debate with unison when I found myself on the mainly staff questions concerning Charles Blow’s speech at the end. The golden rule: facts are sacred, while comment is free, were always only part of the puzzle. Just as these questioners, starting with Michael Leslie, I was hunting for research about: Objectivity. A golden Cow that always hid power and interest beneath the news pyramid system, as we call the most important things first than specifics towards the end where people stop to read.
Yes, manufacturing consent was on my mind too concerning her, that’s why I call her “little Caesar” for her enforcement of her own perspective on the case. Enforced by punishing visibly punishing dissenters so the rest learns to stay within limits. Whiffs of totalitarianism.
At one point, I thought I hated her, but the fascination for her as a object of study triumphed. Besides when my adrenaline comes down cannot hate any longer anyway. I surely can’t say, I admire her. The furthest I would go is that I respect her methodical qualities. But once I noticed them, they dissipated for the most part.
I discovered her when I studied extensively the burglary reports versus GZ’s 911 call, and had reached the conclusion that GZ’s shiny media image, that is that he had helped to arrest burglars and prevented crimes were completely wrong. There was strictly no correlation between his calls and the burglary reports. None.
I then looked if anyone had noticed and found this: Searching for Burgess + George Zimmerman. That’s how I found her.
Now if you notice that someone strictly has the ability to use his head, but to a large extend suppresses it to streamline his or her audience to a outlook chosen before, I call that an ideolog. It makes you wonder why.
Remember her favorite slogan is media manipulation. So she discovered a media manipulation but dropped it silently? That is the type of people I call ideologues. Or Machiavellians, as you suggest, the ends justify the means. I am very sorry, I cannot admire such people. But yes, I have a basic very German fascination for the type. …
I have to finish something, where I definitively have to be more careful, but this caught my eyes.
Correction: when I found myself on the [side of] mainly staff questions
concerningafter Charles Blow’s speech at the end [starting with Michael Leslie]Charles Blow’s cultural critique, is a stereotype. Whenever you had new media over the centuries, you had these decline of culture voices warning of abysmal consequences, no matter if film or radio or mass press. I was reminded of all these theoreticians. He has not even tried to grasp the real sources. Yes, I was slightly disappointed concerning his speech.
The media link does not work as fine anymore. No more screen for the speakers only. In any case Charles Blow’s speech starts at: 02:53:** if you like to leave out his introduction.
willis, I missed my main point in correction or attempts at shortening.
I found the little JM item I choose of special interest because Jeralyn is a proponent of the supposed deceiving media campaign by Benjamin Crump and partners. Now this little item would shine a light on media misrepresentation or pro-Zimmerman image creation as the “successful crime fighter”, which was an early cornerstone for his supporters, after all.
Jeralyn is a proponent of the evil misleading media campaign by Benjamin Crump. So that was evil, not that she states that directly, but this deception is pure?
I’ll shut up about her now, but I sure will continue to study her. Unfortunately she didn’t do me the favor and publish her announced 15 pages about the ABC audio yet.
Oh don’t worry. I’m as fascinated as anyone at her labyrinth of a mind, and her hypocritical reasoning. But it’s sort of an endless and pointless topic ain’t it?
I’m waiting for the day the GZ is found guilty. That’s when I’ll be interested in what she has to say.
The ABC clip is kinda fascinating to me too since one possible narrative one COULD argue about “Crump coached Dee Dee on a separate occasion” involves the concept of the car-to-pedestrian chase. But she’ll never use THAT as an example, even though it could be argues that they both speak of it in terms that could be construed as “already familiar territory.”
follow
I tried watching that…. the academicians were boring. Sorry to be blunt but that guy in the white jacket’s understanding of Focoult wasn’t exactly blowing me away. I gave up long before Charles Blow, who has only thus far impressed me with his anger, not his intellect.
@Whonoze. On Leatherman’s thread, I mentioned having from a reliable source about a State witness with a criminal background. It’s Witness12, the wife of Jon who took the photo of the back of GZ’s head. She has an arrest for failing to appear on a charge of driving on a suspended license. My source reminded me also that we should not forget that Frank Taaffe has an arrest record also.
Thanks Xena. I don’t know how Rene Stutzman can think this hurts the prosecution, since W12 is hardly a significant witness. Failing to appear on a traffic warrant, what a miscreant! 🙂
@whonoze. I listened to the hearing again when the attorney for FDLE addressed the court. He said that a witness was arrested, but the charges were dismissed. So, if that’s Witness 12, it’s nothing to make headlines about.
Wouldn’t we all love to get our hands on this information?
The defense didn’t post this request for specific discovery on their front page, but on their documents page. http://www.gzdocs.com/documents/0313/discovery_demand_326.pdf
I am just kind of surprised that they are asking for this information so late in the game.
What do you all think triggered this request?
They need to know what the state knows.
They need to know what the state doesn’t know.
unitron
Didn’t they need to know what the state knew almost a year ago?
It is possible that the State has gps records for both GZ and Trayvon. Imagine that. State could just make an animation of GZ following Trayvon, with DD as the narrator.
Don’t we all wish… but I wouldn’t hold your breath!
I think their wanting the info now and not a year ago may be: a) the State could have more now than back then
b) Deposing DD with her running commentary of Trayvon’s route was a jolt and they want to see if the State could have any GPS or other evidence that backs her up.
c) Until recently they appeared to be going for an SYG, Self Defence or Immunity trial so MAY not have needed it
Why would they want to wait until the state knows more? That doesn’t make sense. I assumed there was no GPS data, because I would’ve expected an immunity hearing or a plea bargain a long time ago.
Mom didn’t get involved until April last year. They can’t have complete insight about what was on that phone unless they got the data from the state. If they didn’t get it until know, they have no clue about what they may face during trial at this time.
It maybe nothing or it may be very incriminating. Fact is, their request shows they don’t have a clue, and that is bad news for GZ.
Seems like another case of the defense wanting the prosecution to connect the dots for them.
yeah, an animation like you, amsterdam, and many others have already done!
I don’t think the defense wanted to know, what really happened, not a year ago, not a month ago, not today and certainly not tomorrow. Because they already know. Since the odds are that one of the myriad versions GZ has told MOM, one of them has got to be somewhat close to the truth. While there is no version that explains the evidence and witness testimony, that also looks anything like an acceptable defense.
MOM has been at a loss for things to do to fill the long wait until conviction. Poor MOM, where he originally thought that, for once in his miserable life, he had finally grabbed “the brass ring”, only to discover himself locked in a ring of slime, with a toxic defendant too boot.
The expertise of an experienced, tried and true, criminal defense lawyer, would have allowed him to preserve his reputation and even burnish it as a skilled professional. Instead he chose to play it no different than a divorce court lawyer would have (as we’ve learned from our fellow students familiar with such fare) and went on a buck chasing trip, down the road to Gehenna!
“What do you all think triggered this request?”
The fact that it’s this late in the game, perhaps GZ was not completely honest with his counsel (surprise anyone?) regarding his and Shellie’s communications that night. Either he volunteered something incriminating recently or the defense team realized there’s something amiss, so as unitron said, they have to find out what the state knows or doesn’t know, and perhaps find out what their client isn’t telling them.
BINGO, WSI. I agree that the defense attorney Mark O’Mara knows that George isn’t completely forthcoming with him, and doesn’t want to be BLINDSIDED at trial with things that the state can safely assume it need NOT provide as discovery since the defendant should be telling his lawyer about anyway. Things like who he communicated with on his phone that evening, both before, during and after the incident.
I’ve always figured the “missing minutes” corresponded with a time frame where George had opportunity to make another call to a friend/ ally / tipoff person / accomplice, etc. It’s pure speculation to wonder about this, but hey, it’s there to wonder about.
George probably CAN’T do it, and hasn’t been asked by his lawyer to tell him the whole truth. Defense attorneys play a little game with guilty clients. They ask, “what can you tell me to help me win this case for you?” They do NOT ask, “tell me what you did and I’ll see how we can obscure, obfuscate and omit certain parts and how I can lie for you in open court.”
But they can and do ask their client,” what do you think the prosecution is going to be able to prove? What do you know about that might come up to surprise ME at court?” And sadly, they are at this point at the mercy quite often of well, let’s face it, lying criminals who are not as smart as the people who will be doing the majority of the speaking in court.
I discount the GPS data ever proving anything for anyone. That’s just my hunch. But the who called who when about what and were there any texts messages that might come into play at trial is very very important.
George is so stupid he may have tried to delete things that could be retrieved and not realize, and MOM has to assume he’s not guaranteed to be getting the truth from his client.
Of course I want to know who he called or tired to call when the bloody head photo was taken, and I suspect he may have had some communication before and during the altercation as well that is material to the case.
And I can’t wait to find out.
cheers, all and glad to see some activity here again after a lull.
This talk of communications that night reminded me of something. As far as we know, it was picture-taking cellphone Jon (witness 13?) who called Shellie that night right? Now I know Osterman doesn’t have the most reliable facts, but in his book, the following was what Shellie told him when she first called him after the shooting: “A neighbor called to let me know that George was involved in a shooting, but she said that George is okay. He is sitting in the back of a police car, but she could see George and it looks like he is okay.”
It’s possible that he mixed up the gender, but it sounds like some other female witness who was close enough called Shellie.
None of the witnesses that we know of admitted to knowing the Zimmermans or knowing them that well. So who would have known GZ and known Shellie well enough to have HER cell phone number (because she was supposedly at her dad’s house and not at home when it happened, excluding the possibility that someone could have just reached her by calling the number on the neighborhood watch flyer).
@wsi
Is it possible that the she is Shellie?
No, the “she” is someone who supposedly called Shellie.
Well the original person asked by GZ to call Shellie was a HE, not a SHE. And this was while they were standing around at the scene.
So anyone seeing GZ “alright in the back of the police car” must have been a LATER caller.
Or MO was making it up, to explain away why they were not terribly worried GZ was injured, without having to admit they “knew” he was the actual shooter.
But somewhere didn’t he say Shellie called to say someone had called her that “GZ had shot someone else”???
IIRC, the “shot someone else” was a comment either on Dr. Phil’s show or on that sit-down interview with a local news station that MO did.
@WSI
Very good points to take on board, and, no, no surprise at all GZ wasn’t honest with MOM. But not merely because he’s a manipulative, scheming and/or compulsive liar, rather, and it goes with all the usual caveats (i.e. IANAL, IIAC, IMBW, IIRC etc.), as officer’s of the court, I believe council’s are not permitted to directly lie and/or mislead the court, so GZ has to be careful otherwise MOM may find it difficult to keep MOM.
That said, according to an interesting paper by Michael Asimow and Richard Weisberg; “When the Lawyer Knows the Client is Guilty” (links below), lawyers (US ones not those in the UK) have ways of getting around it via either “a weak or strong adversarial approach” of which the following struck me as very curious:
Note the bit about “tips of the prosecutor and the judge”, so if per very small chance GZ does take the stand and simply recites his narrative and no cross from MOM, we can consider ourselves tipped off like the Judge!
(For anyone interested there are two papers bearing the same name, a shorter version by Asimow alone and a longer version by Asimow and Weisberg)
Was wondering why this blog was so silent, then realized I forgot to follow (my lurking over at the CTH all these months must have zapped a few too many brain cells…..)
Crump filed a reply to the second motion asking the court to allow the defense to depose him now that, you know, “Dee Dee lied” and it says the obvious things, like, where do you get off asking for the same thing the judge already ruled against and why don’t you go ahead and finish deposing the witness #8 and quit wasting the time of the court.
It also appears there was a dust-up over the attempt to video tape Dee Dee at her deposition. Apparently the defense is crying to the court about that one, too.
The defense showed up with a video crew at the scheduled meeting at FDLE and BDLR and company refused to allow the deposition to be taped on motion picture/ video and wanted to go forward using audio recording only. The defense claims they had given advance notice, and even tried to CALL the judge for a summary decision on the matter but in the end, after four hours of stalemate, they went ahead and started a deposition using audio recording only. Then quickly the time allotted ran out, and thats why there is a squabble about needed a “second deposition” scheduled.
It warms my heart to know that BDLR stuck up for w8 and put his foot down on the possible intimidation factor inherent in wanting to videotape her face.
“It warms my heart to know that BDLR stuck up for w8 and put his foot down on the possible intimidation factor inherent in wanting to videotape her face.”
If/when she testifies in open court, will she be allowed to wear a mask?
unitron
@ unitron, sarcasm aside, I think a more appropriate question to ask would be “Would all of the witnesses who did not willingly speak on camera to the media, and therefore have had their identities protected until now (which means names redacted and their likeness not recorded), be allowed to stay off camera during the trial?”
““Would all of the witnesses who did not willingly speak on camera to the media, and therefore have had their identities protected until now (which means names redacted and their likeness not recorded), be allowed to stay off camera during the trial?””
Ask someone who knows how Florida runs its courts, because I couldn’t even tell you the answer to that for my own state.
The question about the mask, however, related to being seen by the people in the courtroom, not by a video camera, because a video of the deposition would only have been seen by people who would have seen her in person at the deposition anyway, unless Bernie really wants to accuse the defense of intending to leak her picture to outsiders.
In general, however, I would think that once a witness takes the stand in this trial their name, at least, would become a matter of public record, barring unusual circumstances.
But I’m not an expert on Florida’s court system.
unitron
I do remember the entire Zimmerman clan testifying by telephone during the first bond hearing. Prosecution was more than accomodating to the familie’s wishes to keep their faces out of the media.
Were you as outraged then as you are now?
It’s rather ridiculous isn’t it that the “lie” that DeeDee told was originally to Sabrina for whatever reason we don’t know. Sabrina didn’t really know her (just began hearing her name around Christmas) or the extent of her relationship with her son. Teenagers’ relationships are complex. I told a partial lie this weekend to my friends in order to get out of going to a get-together because I was just uncomfortable seeing some of the other people that were gonna be there. Does that make me a total liar? I should hope not. It’s Mr. Crump’s gaffe for making the hospital story part of the drama, and making DeeDee into TM’s puppy love girlfriend, when she herself did not represent herself that way at all. But does any of this matter? Nope.
“Does that make me a total liar?”
If you were being deposed under oath in connection to a murder trial, that suggestion, or questions about your veracity in general, might come up where ordinarily they wouldn’t.
unitron
I think it is not relevant to the case. Defense uses it to pump up their base. Media likes it, because it gives them something to talk about without having to do real journalistic work.
I love it that MOM had to sent his production team home. It may very well have been DD and her counsel who refused to have her deposition filmed. Good for her. I hope GZ will have to pay that bill.
“It may very well have been DD and her counsel who refused to have her deposition filmed.”
And O’Mara just decided to tell the judge it was de la Ronda instead?
That seems rather unlikely.
unitron
Who said anything about being outraged?
unitron
I did. I smell faux outrage.
“I did.”
Okay, if you want to be outraged, you just go right ahead.
unitron
Thank you.
Apparently the Outhouse mob were boasting they knew who the cameraman was going to be.
There was a big risk of the tape being leaked to circles that would use it to try identifying her, for the purpose of intimidation.
Once she’s on the stand and giving her evidence, it is way too late to try and intimidate her out of doing so. By then it’s safe to show her face. (Of course I’d not blame her if she wore a wig and heavy makeup and tinted glasses).
Now you’ve got me picturing her wearing Groucho glasses.
: – )
unitron
MOM knew in advance that without anything in place, either a court ruling or an agreement, there is no chance he’d get his wish. He should have moved to resolve those issues sooner, instead he wasted his own precious time, trying to obtain some permission that he wasn’t already entitled to. BDLR has no reason to be concerned about how MOM handles solving the problems that face him. But, if MOM attempts to obtain things he has no right to, BDLR is right to stand his ground and refuse, most especially when he has a sensitive witness who would be troubled by what MOM intended to do. MOM is revealing himself to be an ogre.
quoting above exchange:
“It may very well have been DD and her counsel who refused to have her deposition filmed.”
amsterdam
“And O’Mara just decided to tell the judge it was de la Ronda instead?
That seems rather unlikely.”
unitron
I’m not sure it even matters but in questions like this one has to look at there the information is coming from. In this case I THINK it was from Mark O’Mara to the Orlando Sentinel’s whats-her-name who is “covering the case” aka printing stories seemingly favorable to the defense due to the fact that the defense is granting interviews and sending out press releases whereas the prosecution has tried for the most part to keep a tight lid on their comments to the press, mostly as policy in order to shield their trial strategy from the defense, as is standard practice for opposing lawyers in a criminal case.
Assuming MOM even KNEW who was objecting to the deposition being videotaped – and most likely it was EVERYONE in the building besides MOM, he wouldn’t have as much to possibly gain by saying the teenage witness was the one who didn’t want her identity in the form of her face (and likely body type, height, hair style and color, etc) to be in the hands of the defense. MOM gets potential “brownie points” from his supporters and $$$ donors by painting the dust-up as him vs the big bad BDLR, not him beating up on a young teen.
Also we are making the assumption that the reporter who wrote the story and her editor/s got the attribution right in the first place or simply decided to take a partial understanding of the fractious deposition and portray it as MOM vs BDLR having heard the story from a third party, or only partially or tangentially from MOM, etc using a “cut out” deliberately to obfuscate the exact mature of the exchange. I speculate that MOM wouldn’t have had ANY access to DD until he agreed to the terms of audio only, and communicated with her via BDLR. So the objection was “from” BDLR but could have been from DD, clearly and yet MOM was free to say it however he wanted.
Keeping up the pressure and hoping that the prosecution or the judge makes a legal error that can help him win an appeal or a new trial, etc is clearly part of the defense strategy. Filing motion after motion can be a way to play the legal lottery and hope that eventually there is a mistake he can exploit somehow.
I think of whats-her-name as the tool.
Did you see Nelson’s order denying the motion for reconsideration and clarification?
Click to access SKMBT_363-V13032809400.pdf
Once again DD seems to describe the car-to-pedestrian chase in the letter, without fully explaining the circumstances and significance but to me that only further proves her veracity.
Lots to ponder here, including the notes from BDLR included in same PFD where he declines to mention specifically the car-to-pedestrian chase. This disturbs me to no end. He also confirms that “Dee Dee” is the girl’s OWN nickname and not just a random pseudonym, further jeopardizing her secret identity by handing a clue to those who want to “dox” her.
JUDGE NELSON’S ORDER DENYING DEFENSE MOTION FOR RECONSIDERATION OF ORDER DENYING DEPOSITION OF BENJAMIN CRUMP, ESQ
@ WSI, aussiekay:
Regarding the call or calls allegedly informing Shellie of the shooting: GZ has a phone to his ear in the bloody head photo. Yet Shellie hears from a third party, we are told.
So many possibilities here. One is that GZ called her and only had time to say “go move the truck NOW” but hadn’t yet told her about the shooting. Perhaps his call was to someone else. We just don’t know.
If Ofc Tim Smith had his flashers on by the time he reached the vicinity of the shooting and his car was on RVC, maybe GZ saw the flashes of light from between the buildings south of him and knew he only had time for one short conversation.
But the overall point here is that MOM may not have heard the truth from GZ and that’s what he’s worried about regarding the cell phone records. I think we can all agree that’s a possibility to consider.
In a three sentence ruling, Judge Nelson just issued an order denying the prosecution’s second motion to depose Ben Crump.
Orlando sentinel has the report. If the defense is trying to get a reaction out of the judge, so that she will do something that can be brought up on appeal, or in a motion to have her recused, they struck out completely here.
Whoa, did you guys read DeeDee’s written letter to Sabrina on March 19? (attached to BDLR’s rather hilarious response to the defense). She says that TM decided to walk thru ANOTHER COMPLEX. So perhaps he did cut through the adjacent apartment complex to get into RATL?
Click to access states-response-to-ds-motion-for-sanctions-against-state-attorneys-office-for-discovery-violations-3-28-13.pdf
The State might have looked into the possibility of Trayvon being followed between the time he left the 7-Eleven and entered the Retreat at Twin Lakes. Zimmerman’s phone records may have led them to acquire the M&I Bank video. I am still very curious about that video and whether the man seen on it at around 6:38 p.m. is Osterman.
The thing is, that bank is on the other side of TRATL from the 7-Eleven, so I’m not sure its cameras showed much of relevance except when it was raining how much.
Maybe the state grabbed it before they knew Trayvon’s direction of travel, and were stuck with having to make it part of the “official” body of evidence.
Zimmerman’s phone records might show that his phone and Osterman’s phone were in contact during that time, but there’s no way to prove what was discussed.
I’m surprised there seems to be no surveillance camera footage from the area between the 7-Eleven and TRATL showing Martin walking past.
unitron
I’ve always thought that the only thing that the bank surveillance cameras were good for was to show when it started and stopped raining.
The clubhouse videos show the rain, particularly the one of the pool. Rain can be observed in a downpour at one time.
Unitron, have you watched the M&I Bank video?
Yes, but not recently, and at the time I put more effort into figuring out that the other person of interest was not Shellie than I did worrying about Osterman.
unitron
Many people thought the security guy seen leaving with GZ from jail and the guy in the bank video looked alike. However, since Osterman went on TV, it’s been obvious that neither of those people were Osterman. He looks very different, except for the bald head.
The guy accompanying GZ when he left jail on bond is Osterman. Yes, when he went on Dr. Phil’s to promote his book, Osterman had lost weight, so he looked a little different. There is a side-by-side of Osterman’s photo on Sondra’s Facebook with a still of the M&I Bank video, and there is definitely a resemblance, although I cannot say for certain that they are the same person.
“The guy accompanying GZ when he left jail on bond is Osterman.”
I still have to disagree with that. They paid a security company beaucoup bucks to take GZ from jail. Osterman at the time was keeping mum so I don’t think he’d have walked out to where there were going to be cameras. Also, weight doesn’t change the shape of your nose. (remove spaces from the links below). In the first link, you see the shot of the guy leaving jail with GZ. The 2nd link is Osterman’s interview where you see his face from the same angle. Also, I think their eye colors are different too.
h t t p://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2173340/Revealed-The-ex-cop-best-friend-taught-George-Zimmerman-shoot-hid-weeks-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-accompanies-police-interrogation.html
h t t p://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yK9VwtdaY5c
my original (rough and blurry) screenshots taken from the relevant videos.
MO did look a lot slimmer on Dr. Phil, and was dressed up which also looks slimming. In his Facebook pix he looked about the weight in these two vids^^^ and wore a similar loose T-shirt.
Whoa, maybe things are even worse than we figured. What if Trayvon does come in by FT’s place? Then TM is very late getting back from the store, taking nearly 25 minutes for a less than 13 minute walk. Meaning he’d have had to shelter somewhere along the way.
But then, he comes through the cut through near Taaffe’s and GZ drives past him, circles back and drives behind him all the way to the mail shed. Then this would be the “long tail” that GZ tries to cover up with a lie about parking at the clubhouse. It also explains why TM would be so certain that he was being followed so soon. So that after he leaves the mail shed, GZ mounts a 2nd “long tali” car to pedestrian chase.
That still doesn’t make things coincidental as GZ wants us to believe, since he wasn’t on his way to go shopping, otherwise, his routine dictates, his wife would be with him, or planning to meet him at the store. But there was no money for shopping, his cards were maxxed out and all he had was two quarters. So, some one notified him to come out on the hunt, trouble is that, if this scenario is true, then TM was followed from the 711. Easily accomplished by those 3 stooges who met him at the store. They were traveling by car.
While I see what you are saying Lonnie, I want to clarify that the term I coined, “the long tail” refers not to GZ following TM with his car specifically, but to the idea that TM likely had a steady rate of speed while walking, and that that speed can be calculated variously by making the assumption based on GZ’s and NEN call taker’s words that TM is “near the clubhouse now?”/ “yeah, now he’s walking towards me”
Short version: please don’t say long tail when you mean car-to-pedestrian chase, lest we get confused.
If we assume GZ was where he marked a map (and quickly crossed it out for a second position) then we have two possibilities – one is the most likely, and the one that helps reconcile his inconsistencies and contradictions – the firts position, that seems to put TM at the mail kiosk (as Dee Dee claims) and GZ at or near the first bend in TTL (as the clubhouse video seems to show.)
Now, if we plot the rate of the teen’s walking speed and assume that the “these axxholes always get away” is the general time that GZ’s car is passed by, then we have another 30 seconds of TM likey walking at a similar speed since after than time GZ exclaims the teen is running, and leaves the car to follow.
Logic, evidence and common sense say to me that GZ was at the first bend when the comment was made “now he’s walking towards me” and that the teen was near the cut thru/ second bend when he took off running. Why did he take off running? Because GZ MOVED his car to the second position, the one he readily admits to and claims in his “re-creation” walk thru. And in so doing, he stalked the teen and frightened him into running off the roadway where he hoped a car wouldn’t go. GZ’s also admitted moving his car DURING the NEN call, albeit in a false and misleading manner, claiming he was at the clubhouse parking lot and DIRECTED to move. This entire line of his false narrative is meant to obscure, obfuscate and omit the car to pedestrian chase. He knows it makes him the aggressor, and so he had to invent a way to say it never happened. Too bad for him that what he claims happened is impossible to reconcile with the NEN call recording.
Okay now finally we get to what I call “the long tail,” which refers to where Trayvon would have been had GZ actually been in his “final” position down by the curt thru when TM left being “near the clubhouse” or the mail kiosk – the two are actually interchangeable for the purposes of this exercise, given GZ’s sightlines. Recall that at least in ONE proxy version, this is what Taffe claims he knows happened “According to George.” Here, in testing this theory if you plot the RATE that TM would have to travel to pass GZ’s “never moved behind the teen” car, and then continue to plot the path for the NEXT 30 seconds, the teen would be long gone at the point in time that GZ claims to see him running. HAd hte teen gone into the cut thru, he’s be nearly to RVC if not all the way there. HAd he gone done TTL on the pavement, he’d be way around the bend and probably out of GZ’s sightline as well. This impossible path is what I call “the long tail,” it’s the speculative line that shows the teen couldn’t have been near the clubhouse with GZ already by the cut thru, since he’d be walking so fast that he would have disappeared from view by the time GZ told the NEN call taker he was running.
Also bolstering this timing is the distance from the second GZ position (the one he claims in the re-nactment) to the sidewalk T, which seems to fit the timing of GZ’s fast walk/ jog where we hear the wind noise ending around the moment of “he ran.” Were GZ parked ALWAYS by the mail kiosk, and had never moved, he would not have had time to reach the cut thru T intersection unless he can run very very fast and not make noise that sounds like that.
Instead of “the long tail” I suggest you stick to what I call “the car to pedestrian chase.”
I agree that we now have to CONSIDER the idea that GZ did spot TM near the FT shortcut but I am not yet convinced that this happened. But certainly one explanation of the car/s looping back and forth on RVC could be that GZ was surveilling the teen as he walked from near FT’s to the mail kiosk, and GZ was trying to pretend he was not creeping behind but instead made multiple passes as the teen walked. This is of course a thin ruse and likely unnerved the teen quickly if it indeed is what happened.
Gotcha… Car to pedestrian chase it is.
It makes much more sense that GZ would be circling as shown in the cctv analysis, around Trayvon’s progress, than that he could somehow miss Trayvon in the mail shed and would leave then get called back.
But what this shows is that GZ didn’t spot Trayvon coming through the cut through, but after he’d already come out on the street and therefore better exposed to view. GZ is trying to fill the time and make Trayvon seem more thuggish, by placing him in the cut through and therefore near Taaffe’s house, so he’d have a house to look in. At the same time he’s making light of his following as “hardly noticeable” rather than so gross as to be fear inducing.
Of course, buh_lack teens are not supposed to be surprised or frightened by having white males follow them in cars in the dark. They’re supposed to expect it and accept it, because the guy following them is merely a crime fighter. Some crime fighter GZ is, first crack out of the box and he’s killed a harmless law abiding child. I shudder to think of what a career in crime fighting would result in.
“…that seems to put TM at the mail kiosk (as Dee Dee claims)…”
She puts him near some mail boxes, but not necessarily the ones in TRATL.
unitron
“But there was no money for shopping, his cards were maxxed out and all he had was two quarters.”
This has always kinda bugged me because I’m not sure if we know for sure that he didn’t have his wallet with him. I would LOVE, LOVE LOVE to know that for sure because that would totally debunk his shopping story. But we have to be careful in how we interpret the evidence. I know the quarters were listed in evidence because it came out of his jacket. However, they didn’t list his phone on any document either, because I assumed they gave it back to him when he left the cop shop, so they would have given his wallet back as well.
He did have his wallet with him, they noted that’s where they found his ccwp. No mention of any money, my guess is they would have mentioned money found there, just like they did for the two quarters in a baggie found in his jacket. Police worry about money since they’re often accused of stealing it, so it makes them antsy and so they note it when it turns up.
Also, if you’re going to do enough shopping to do cooking for the week, wouldn’t some kind of shopping list be in order? I often find I need a list for just day shopping, because it’s so easy to get distracted in store and totally forget the main item you came to get.
How many time does one go to the store for say mayonnaise and come home with everything but?
@Lonnie Starr. IDK, but the more I think about it and look at things such as the clubhouse videos, the more I’m convinced that someone was following Trayvon before he entered the R@TL.
Also the more I think about it, there is possibility that GZ picked up the following once Trayvon entered the R@TL. Someone else, such as Osterman, may have conducted the following outside of the gated community.
YEP XENA, HERE’S A LINK FOR THOSE NOT YET UP TO SPEED
The timeline should indicate that TM needs to be followed, since, otherwise, there’s no way to be sure that things will line up.
The “3 Stooges” at 711 introduce a 7 minute delay on TM’s return trip. They have a car, so they could even have followed him, by just staying behind, parking on the shoulder and watched Trayvon’s progress. They could also have called Osterman, GZ or anyone else to alert them to Trayvon’s progress. That seems much more likely than GZ suddenly leaving home after Sunset, to go on patrol in the rain (there being no real shopping trip), in the 5 minute window needed to capture sight of Trayvon. Less, to know were to go to find him to boot!
Is that timeline your work?
It wouldn’t accept my WordPress.com identity to point out that it has Trayvon’s weight 3 lbs. lighter than at autopsy.
unitron
Thanks I’m changing it to 158 as we speak.
“Thanks I’m changing it to 158 as we speak.”
Thank you.
unitron
You should be able to post as anonymous, I don’t have any restrictions set.
My motto is, when in doubt, blame WordPress.com
: – )
unitron
Errr… That’s google’s blogger. I chose blogger because every post gets a reply button, so that makes for better threads. Trouble is there’s so few posts it hardly matters much. heeheehee. Oh, today I’ll be breaking my 10th k viewer. applause!
Well, it offered to let me use my WordPress.com “identity”, and when I tried it all went sideways somehow, so I just played the odds and blamed WordPress.
: – )
unitron
@Lonnie Starr
Speculation, but maybe the 3 Stooges offered to give Trayvon a ride home, and after they came out of the 7-Eleven, said they were going somewhere else, inviting Trayvon to come along. Trayvon wanted to go home so started his walk.
I don’t have a handle on it, but I do think that the 3 Stooges are connected to GZ. As you know, since first hearing about GZ and NW, I suspected he was using it as a cover-up for burglaries. Osterman, being GZ’s mentor, is a con artist, wanting the dealer to pay a “finder’s fee” to a friend in order for Osterman to return the car stolen by the man who hired him as a security guard.
Ride offer makes good sense. And I’d feel inclined to accept it, except for one little wrinkle, these guys are hiding their faces while they’re in the store. That’s an artifact that says they’re up to nothing good. It also says that they’re strangers, that Trayvon isn’t bonded enough to come back into the store with them. So, I have to doubt he’d feel safe getting into a car with them, coupled with them hiding their faces in the store, making them unlikely to want an uninitiated tag along aboard.
They appear to be the types Trayvon would have been warned to watch out for. And… Didn’t he tell DD that he wished his mother was there, as he was making his way to the store? Kind of tells you that Trayvon wasn’t traveling in the happiest of moods at the least. At worst, he held some dread of what was up ahead for some reason. Just as a person would if they’d been given some not-quite-so-sensible reason to meet up, but yet they couldn’t easily refuse.
So, hold on to those suspicions that GZ might have been working with thieves. There’s something about this store encounter that I find troubling. Of course, we may never know, but then again, maybe something will break.
@Lonnie Starr. Until you mentioned that 2 of the guys kept their faces hidden, I had not noticed that. Forgive my seeing in parts, but I now suspect that the 3 stooges engaged Trayvon because they were suppose to meet someone there and wanted to know whether Trayvon saw or knew the person.
Here is what I see but through a glass darkly. Something went wrong with the NW cover-up. GZ threw Burgess under the bus. His gang threatened to spill the beans on him unless GZ found a fall-guy. He was given a certain number of days to achieve that but missed his deadline. Someone beat GZ badly that weekend, causing his head boo-boo’s and the scratches on his face with the exception of the nose. The scratches had already scalped when the pics were taken in the police station. A close-up of his head boo-boo’s on Dave’s blog shows that the head boo-boo’s have scalps around the edges.
GZ’s NEN phone call was a cop setup. Based on GZ’s description of Trayvon’s physical movements, had Smith arrived and seen Trayvon alone, he would have suspected him to be armed. GZ was to intimidate Trayvon so he could shoot him at his vehicle, or Trayvon was suppose to have been killed by the SPD officer. The 3 Stooges were suppose to say “Yeah, that’s the guy who had us stealing for him.” The SPD was then suppose to investigate Trayvon, keeping their eyes off GZ and his gang.
But Trayvon ran. That blew GZ’s plan. And, Trayvon was the wrong Black teen. GZ shot “somebody else” — not a thug — not a Goon — not a kid with a criminal background.
His gang was still going to make good on their threat, so GZ had to pack up and move out after leaving the police station. He could not chance having the police come to his house and find stolen property — maybe even drugs.
The first few times I looked at that 711 cctv tape I was so focused on what Trayvon was doing, I didn’t notice that the other guys were keeping their faces covered. Since they weren’t there doing that, because they were intending to rob the 711, the only other reason they could have, for hiding their faces is, they didn’t want to be associated with Trayvon. That, in turn, means they expected that something was going to happen to Trayvon that they did not want to be connected with.
@Lonnie Starr
That is a very reasonable conclusion.
An alternative is that they just left somewhere and their planned alibi was that they were not in the area — an alibi necessary in case GZ called the cops to report the azz whipping they gave him.
I don’t get it, if their appearance here at the 711 was to be an alibi, proving that they were not somewhere else, then they’d want the best pictures of themselves on the cctv they could get. So this has to be the opposite, TM waited outside for 30 seconds for them to arrive. So he was meeting them, if not he’d have started for home and been thirty seconds away from the door when they came in. 30 x 3 ft/sec. 90 + feet away from the door. They’d have had to call him back and remove all doubt of a meeting. But, no, unnecessary, you don’t wait in front of a store for 30 seconds with nothing to do. You certainly don’t wait outside 5 minutes for strangers to finish their shopping.
The white guy removes his hat but his large dark glasses are as good as a mask. Finally there’s a good possibility that this guy is the Ransberg(burg) who had Burgess’s stolen laptop in the backpack he was carrying. One is tempted to theorize that the SPD was running a burglary ring(s) in and around the town. I mean, one doesn’t expect a police force to have so damn much to hide.
@Lonnie Starr
Okay. You’re right about that. I hadn’t considered that they did not want to be recognized while in the 7-Eleven. Still, I believe there is a connection between them, Osterman, and GZ.
Osterman is a con artist — tried getting a finder’s fee for a friend to return the car paid for with a bad check by the guy who hired Osterman for security. GZ is a silent thief — taking all $18,000 in the Aames case without telling his attorney, neither paying legal fees and costs as agreed. Osterman and GZ are petty con artists, so I can see how they would use NW as a cover-up for thefts.
Thinking — what if the 3 stooges and Burgess still wanted to be paid for the laptop, GZ refused, and that led to a fight and deal to get Burgess off?
Well, we have Ransberg(burg) Burgess, and two more blacks, Osterman, Taaffe the HOA board and a few cops at the SPD. so the field is rich with players and therefore ripe for conspiracy theories galore. I don’t see GZ as a druggie type guy, he’s more of a prescription med and alcohol type. He’d certainly go for any scheme to move stolen merchandise, and obtaining a regular supply would be his likely link to druggies and possibly dealers as well, since drug users are quick to assert that their fence is standing behind their request for credit. A shortage of funds and boom, things begin to get hot really fast.
I could see GZ not realizing how much money a druggie could need, and possibly fronting them a few dollars for fixes, in exchange for them stealing things he could sell on ebay etc.,
But, drug users are cons themselves, so if someone is stupid, they’ll get them tied up in knots if you let them. So, there’s a lot to work with there, but we lack a way of opening these doors.
Now there you go, drugs!!! Lots of money and heavy time, GZ involved with police? A narcotics officer in question? A wide screen phone involved in moving stolen merchandise? There’s a whole lot of possibilities there and some of them would be more than sufficient to cause a murder. Well there’s a lot of material there, but we have no way to put it in order yet.
@Lonnie Starr
Can’t help it, but that $18,000 that GZ received in July 2011 just stays on my mind. What did he do with it? GZ got busy setting up NW around August-September 2011. The timing with the money he received is weird because he had lived in that community for how long? He wasn’t concerned with organizing a NW until after he came into that money.
He was working full-time, came into $18k, but was broke several months later. That smells like addiction. It’s my gut feeling that GZ’s drug use shall come to light.
Now there you have something. Remember how they covered up the fact that Nicole Brown and Faye Resnick had gone through 1.4 million dollars in under 2 years, in the OJ trial. That was due to drug use.
So 18k is small potatoes for any kind of drug habit. Could Ransberg(burg) have been his pusher as well? That would certainly be a good fit. Enough money in there to reach high into government circles eh? Ransberg(burg) would be well connected enough to always get away, and violent enough to be feared. Hmmm… I see some theories forming up now, but I’ll hold off, I need more information. In fact where any theory along these new lines would have to go, I’d need quite a bit on very strong evidence.
@Lonnie Starr
True. About the timing:
July 2011– GZ gets the $18,000.
August-Sept. 2011 – GZ organizes NW.
Dec. 2011 – GZ fails his classes and does not graduate.
He does not make any NEN calls reporting suspicious persons thereafter until February 2, 2012. He sees nothing until Burgess is outside of Taaffe’s with Taaffe leaving his doors unlocked and windows open.
Feb. 26, 2012 — GZ kills Trayvon and relates back to Feb. 2, 2012 regarding Taaffe’s house. Although it’s difficult, we have to think like GZ. He sees a correlation with Feb. 2nd justifying his actions on Feb. 26th. We know it’s not because he saw Trayvon standing outside of Taaffe’s house.
This is what leads me to believe that Burgess and the 3 stooges are somehow connected in GZ’s hunt for a “suspect” on 2/26/12.
As do I. But so far all I can put them down for is, possibly luring Trayvon from home for this trip to the store, delaying his return home for 5 to 6 minutes, and possibly tracking and reporting his progress back to RATL.
Of course, I note that because of the timeline and distances to be covered, GZ was still too tardy to have caught Trayvon, if it were not for the rain impeding his progress. That, and GZ slurred speech, makes it seem possible that GZ was impaired going into this thing. But that’s not enough to prove that the result was more than a plan to detain and question Trayvon that went horribly wrong. Of course, the only reason it could have gone so horribly wrong is, GZ decided to kill Trayvon for his own sick personal pleasure.
So, even or especially if you assume this thing started with non-lethal intentions, you still get murder one in the end, because Trayvon mounted no such deadly assault on GZ, thus GZ’s own intentions were unnecessarily deadly.
A kinesologist working with a forensic anthropologist, would be able to establish how much strength Trayvon had available. My guess is he would be too weak to move GZ around at all or obtain any position of advantage over him.
You see, as you develop strength by applying it, you also cause your bones to strengthen as well. A forensic anthropologist will be able to see the strengthened bones or the lack of it, and determine what kind of forces TM could apply. It would not be a pretty picture for GZ. But, I hardly think that is necessary since the SP is going for M2.
Remember we had a discussion about how not all the evidence we were discussing here, was going to be used at trial? Well, I think that’s why BDLR finally released DD’s statement about the apartment complex. I think that up to that point, they weren’t going to use any theory about where GZ first spotted and followed Trayvon from. Since they can easily prove M2 without going into all of that if need be.
My guess is that, after reading some of the speculations going on here on the net, and adding in some other evidence they had collected, they came away with an even more useful theory about what happened that night, and it’s is probably even more devastating than the simple case they were prepared to make.
Well, whatever the new theory of guilt the SP has developed you can be sure it’s a lollapalooza!
Willis “…and frightened him into running off the roadway where he hoped a car wouldn’t go. …”
This is perfectly confirmed by DeeDee in her letter to Sybrina
“….then noticed someone was following him.Then he decided to find a shortcut cause the man (c)(w)ouldn’t follow him. Then he said the man didn’t follow him again…..”
This statement also indicates Trayvon was not aware of GZ running after him on foot. So that again tightens the timelines.
If the “other complex” indicates Trayvon did enter through the back way near Taaffe’s, it still does not mean that is where GZ first saw him. This very brief statement from DeeDee makes no mention of the mailboxes, it starting to rain again etc.or any timing apart from “then” “then” “then” which could be anything from 5 seconds to 5 minutes.
Tchoupi’s lights analysis looks more like GZ cruised through the RVC/TTL intersection 3 times before going down to the mailboxes, which looks more like a search pattern than following someone.
(Where and how is Tchoupi, btw? anyone seen or heard of him???)
A while ago, last fall I think, he appeared briefly when some challenges to his work were issued. He put them to rest, informed us that he’s been snowed under with work and went quiet again. That’s been the last I’ve heard from him.
Wassointersting…..
Yes he DID HAVE A WALLET and no it was NOT kept as evidence, it was given back to him to take home
In Singleton’s interview, she takes his CCW permit FROM HIS WALLET. How she gets the wallet is not explained, I assume he reached in his pocket and gave it her when she asked does he have a permit. Anyway she HAD IT TO LOOK AT.
I’ve said this about 10 times now, look it up if you don’t believe me, it’s in the interview or in her first written statement from the first evidence dump.
However a lot of people carry a wallet even when they are not going shopping, so the presence of a wallet is no evidence of his intentions in that respect.
Oh I believe you Aussie, Thank you for confirming what I had always thought. This “having no money to go shopping” issue bugged me because so I’ve seen so many people say he had no money because only the two quarters were logged into evidence. The fact that something was not logged doesn’t mean he didn’t have it. I mean they didn’t take his underwear, did they, so it wasn’t logged, but we can’t say he wasn’t wearing any underwear (Sorry for putting that image in your head).
And I agree it doesn’t support 100% that he was going shopping. You need to have your driver’s license when you get in the car.
Basically, the lack of money, credit card or a grocery list was secondary or tertiary evidence that there was no shopping trip really planned. The primary evidence was that there was no attempt by GZ’s car to go out the front gate at all, even when there was no Trayvon to be viewed. Because with TM in the mail shed by 6:54 GZ does not leave home early enough to see TM anywhere on the road. So, if GZ was really intending to go shopping, there was nothing to prevent him from simply going out the front gate. Only a phone call could do that.
“Basically, the lack of money, credit card or a grocery list was secondary or tertiary evidence that there was no shopping trip really planned.”
Is there an inventory of the contents of Zimmerman’s wallet from that night of which I’m unaware?
unitron
No, there’s no inventory of the wallet, except to note that the ccwp was in there. However, just as they inventoried the two quarters they found in the coat pocket, you can be sure that they’d have inventoried any cash they found in the wallet, or anywhere else for that matter.
They would hardly take pains to list two quarters then let a 20 dollar bill go without mention.
“No, there’s no inventory of the wallet, except to note that the ccwp was in there. ”
Perhaps his wallet was never taken into custody. Perhaps they were not, on that night, able to show probable cause to search the contents.
unitron
Nope, that’s not police procedure. They’ll ask you to take your wallet out and lay it on the table, then they’ll examine it and give it back. They’re not going to give you a chance to avoid a secret compartment, they’re going to feel around to see if there’s anything conceal inside that they can’t find a way to reach.
They have these procedures built up over time, because people have tried to fool them, and they’ve devised these countermeasures.
“They’re not going to give you a chance to avoid a secret compartment, they’re going to feel around to see if there’s anything conceal inside that they can’t find a way to reach.”
Would that not constitute what the 4th Amendment would consider a search?
unitron
Of course it’s a search. It’s legal because he consented to it.
“Of course it’s a search. It’s legal because he consented to it.”
I can’t remember anywhere that they recorded him consenting to a search, as opposed to agreeing to answer questions, but now I’m going to have to find a lawyer to bug about whether the cops finding your wallet in your pocket while checking you for weapons is different from legal grounds to search inside the wallet.
Seems like that would be covered by the “papers and effects” clause, but nowadays you never know what chunks of the Bill of Rights have been silently “disappeared” while we weren’t looking.
unitron
Sigh… No wonder everyone suspect you, look at what you’re doing here. GZ is not under arrest, he’s in the station voluntarily assisting with the investigation. They ask him to empty his pockets, he either refuses and demands a warrant and a lawyer, or he complies and allows them to look through his possessions. They find his ccwp, no cash and that’s it.
He consented, he did not refuse, he’s a law student, he’s been mirandized, there’s no issue.
If there is no inventory of the contents of Zimmerman’s wallet, it is far more likely that they did not conduct such an inventory than that they did but made no note of it.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
unitron
What did I say? I said that they would only have inventoried money if they found it, otherwise all they did was note that the wallet contained the ccwp. They inventory money because, they don’t want anyone saying later that they had more money than they left with. Police aren’t generally accused of stealing peoples papers from their wallets, but they are accused of stealing cash all the time. So the procedure of searches is to inventory all cash while in front of the subject, so to preclude any chance for a claim.
Yet here we are still posting on this trivial matter of little to no consequence. All the money George had on him was two quarters and the police inventoried that. As far as his credit card/debit card(s) they are in the statements. GZ was so broke that day he couldn’t pay attention.
Oh, and his prepaid phone, was probably a Walmart phone and it was due to go blank on the 28th. So GZ was in serious need of cash.
It would seem that perhaps he was originally going to remain on Oregon all the way to the front gate, but because of the rain decided to shorten the distance, possibly pausing by mailboxes in the other neighborhood instead of the ones near the clubhouse, but either way this increases the chances that he entered via the shortcut near Frank’s or the other shortcut nearby.
And if he were being followed or stared at suspiciously in the other neighborhood before getting to TRATL, was it by Zimmerman or someone else?
(My version of the 2 person theory is that Zimmerman and the other person didn’t know each other or about each other, and that it was a case of all those old white guys looked alike to Trayvon in the dark and the rain, and at his age anyone over 25 or so is “old”)
The more we learn, the more questions it raises.
unitron
“case of all those old white guys looked alike”
Hah! Hence the bald Osterman and GZ with short hair cut switcheroo theories. Why hasn’t anyone twittered that side by side? (Ok, taking tongue out of cheek now).
But if we were to believe any of GZ’s statements, in the re-enactment video, he said that when he spotted TM at taffe’s place, TM was looking around “to see who else….” Then he cut his sentence short. TM was unnerved by somebody, whether it was by GZ at that time, or somebody else that GZ didn’t know of or did know of (aka the “tipster). **Sigh*** we’ll never know.
Actually I was thinking along the lines of some other old white guy who lives in the neighborhood to the west of TRATL, one who has never spoken publicly about any of this for whatever reasons.
But of course that’s all based on trying to get the young lady’s statements to work chronologically, which, due in large part to the ineptitude of her two interviewers, does not necessarily lay out in the same sequence as she related the various events.
unitron
SMH, it’s a sad day when we can consider that it’s not unlikely that a stroll through a couple of neighborhoods can get a black teenager such unwanted attention from two different observers, no? Security videos from the neighboring complex were provided in some recent discoveries I think but have yet to be released. I wonder if they show anything.
Can’t tell if it was on the way out or on the way back that he cut through the next complex. It looks more like she was trying to keep the story short. Either that or we haven’t been hearing the whole tape or story that DD told, just excerpts in answer to the questions asked and not a full narration???
@Lonnie
Am I imagining things, or didn’t DD say in one of the interviews Crump/BDLR that as Trayvon left the 7/11 it started to rain? I could swear I either heard it on tape or read it in one of the transcripts. If DD did say it then her letter statement IMO would read more like it was as he left 7/11.
IMO we haven’t because DD doesn’t seem to be short of being able to keep up running commentary on the event, with drama included any time they let her run but both interviewers appear to keep interrupting her all the time.
Yes, she did say that it started raining after TM left 711. But, Trayvon had hung up on her, so that she didn’t hear the encounter TM had with those three guys there. He reconnected with her after a while, several minutes into his trip back. Shortly after TM left the 711, Tchoupi’s work shows that the rain began to gradually increase every 3 or four minutes.
The rain, expressed in fractions of an inch don’t seem like much, except that they are in inches per hour.
Wonderfully written and full of great digs at the defence, BDLR’s response to MOM’s motion
Click to access states-response-to-ds-motion-for-sanctions-against-state-attorneys-office-for-discovery-violations-3-28-13.pdf
Exhibit B attached to that response is a handwritten letter from Dee Dee to Sybrina. I transposed it as is.
“March 19,2012
I was on the phone when Trevon decided to go to the Cornerstore. It started to rain so he decided to walk through another complex because it was rainy to hard he started walking then noticed someone was following him.Then he decided to find a shortcut cause the man (c)(w)ouldn’t follow him. Then he said the man didn’t follow him again. Then he looked back and saw the man again. The man started getting closer. Then Trevon turned around and said Why are you following me !! Then I heard him fall, then the phone hung up. I called back.and text.No response. In my mind I thought it was just a fight. Then I found out this tragic story.
Thank you (name blacked out).”
There are a few interesting points in it, from a map-making point of view.
In her interview(s), DD said that TM ran “from the back because it was more easier” However, here, she wrote “Then he decided to find a shortcut cause the man wouldn’t follow him.” This really confirms the fact that TM’s normal route of walking home would be along the sidewalk in front of the houses along TTL. His cutting through the back was so GZ couldn’t follow in his truck.
agree.
Me too. Agree.
i think her handwriting says “cause the man WOULN’T follow him” and that this speaks to TM’s confidence that after he ran, the incident should have been over.
It’s a W, not a C in my opinion.
Yep, TM did what he could to avoid the creepy old man. If some guy follows me in the dark behind townhomes, and I had a younger kid waiting at home, I’d have turn around and wouldn’t even ask a question like TM did. It would have been a few straight kicks to the balls, a few jabs with my keys and mace if I had it. And if I’d have been shot after leaving my stalker bleeding, I don’t think the cops would say, Oh the watch guy with a gun was just defending himself, because I’m not a young black male.
Yes, and IMO there can be no question it is a “w” when you compare it with several other of her written words that start with a “w” (“walk”, “was”, “walking”).
here is my first impression, biased of course but I’m only human:
“I was on the phone when Trevon decided to go to the Cornerstore.”
They had been talking all day and she heard about his trip before he left.
“It started to rain so he decided to walk through another complex because it was rainy to hard he started walking then noticed someone was following him.”
AFTER LEAVING the 7Eleven, Travyon took a different route home than he had on the way there. It was raining and he sought a path where he could shelter along the way some, even if he was still moving all the while, or stopping here and there. In the neoghboring complex there were more trees, overhangs, cutting thru the stairwell overhangs, etc. than on the open main road.
IMO she is saying here that someone HAD followed him or WAS watching him. Not that a car-to-pedestrian chase had already begun. OR she’s skipped the mail kiosk at R@TL and moved right on to the point where TM has left the mail kiosk, and is being followed in the car-to-pedestrian chase down TTL.
OR, she is saying that TM was aware he was being followed in a car to pedestrian chase as he entered the R@TL thru either shortcut – the FT one off Oregan ave or the more southernly one from the neighboring complex. This would be bolstered by tchoupi’s light events visible on RVC and that’s GZ trying to be clever by continuing to pass TM and then “doubling back” a time or two to look the teen over, but not overtly creeping along behind him, YET.
There are MANY ways to interpret this passage and it’s pure speculation to say one is right where the others are wrong. Once again we are left with no definitive account.
I don’t tend to think she is claiming he was followed while in a neighboring complex. I attribute the “walk through another complex” as a past tense phrase – the walking thru another complex was over when the next action begins, that action being noticing someone was following him.
I tend to go with the idea that this short sentence tries to cover the route from 7eleven to the mail kiosk, and then the walk from the mail kiosk and the moment before TM took off running to leave the roadway because of what the sentence leads into:
“Then he decided to find a shortcut cause the man (c)(w)ouldn’t follow him”
This to me clearly refers to TM leaving TTL for the cut thru path, having been engaged in an unnerving car-to-pedestrian chase down TTL. But keep in mind my bias. She says “the man couldn’t follow him” because the man was in a car and the teen planned to leave the roadway. Keep in mind that at sometime around this exact moment, their call either dropped or TM hung up so he could concentrate on running fast. I also speculate that TM never looked back once he took off running, and that he was around the corner and into the dog walk area before GZ opened his door, so that even if he had looked back he would not have known the man was exiting his car. Had he seen that, he would have run faster and farther.
“Then he said the man didn’t follow him again.”
She calls him back, and he (tragically) STOPS running to answer the phone and reassure her that the car did not JUMP the curb and continue off-road after him. It’s rainy, and he assumes the incident is over since only a real bad guy with no known rational motive would continue pursuing a kid with skittles, a soda and a lighter with such vigor.
He thinks he’s in the clear, and tells her so. However, soon enough he sees or hears TM puffing and wheezing up to the sidewalk T, banging on his flashlight and speaking into a phone. TM decides to either hold still, or step onto a patio. I think he was near JohnW6’s porch, but IT DOESN’T MATTER where he was or where they went. Let’s not rehash all that. IMO we’ll never know absent a confession or a miracle-worthy GPS tracking technology.
Some time passes, we know and boy is that the mystery. I’m guessing that TM and her simply talked some more and TM watched GZ move off from the T and towards RVC, never fully sure if this was the same person who was in the car or not.
Somewhere in here TM begins again to get frightened and his voice drops. It could be that he walks up towards the T to see if the figure that want towards RVC is still there. We don’t know. We can assume both however are walking around in the dark wary and unsure of the other’s location. GZ knows he’s after a “suspect” he can identify. TM knows a car chased him and that MAYBE a guy got out. He’s sufficiently at ease that he rebuffs DD’s pleas to keep running, at least at first.
“Then he looked back and saw the man again. The man started getting closer”
At this point they engage in a fast-walk footchase that looks like a routine from a silent movie – each wanting to keep up a pretense that they are moving innocently along – TM towards home possibly, or towards open territory/ lights, freedom, whatever and GZ moving in his direction steadily closing the gap. GZ IS CLOSING THE GAP AND IS THE AGGRESSOR.
Then the exchange of words, and the physical struggle begins, after GZ has clearly acted illegally in stalking the teen, having profiled and pursued using car and on foot.
just my 2 cents. YMMV.
The only thing that is new, is the other complex. BdlR kind of skipped the discussion about Trayvon’s path from the 7 Eleven to RATL. Time wise it would make sense for Trayvon to have made a stop earlier. He’d left the 7 eleven at 6:30 pm for the 15 minute walk to RATL.
I am quite sure Trayvon was hiding from the rain at the mail area when GZ called the nen. I’ve tried out Trayvon walking towards GZ, and GZ proceeding to follow him from other locations, it just doesn’t work.
I agree we will need detailed gps if we are ever to find out the exact path. For now I think our personal biases are to deep. I don’t see how you get Trayvon walking with GZ following him and getting closer, Trayvon looking behind him and eventually turning around to face GZ, to work with Trayvon hanging out on the dog walk after he ran.
I really don’t see it Willis. My theory may be completely wrong, but which ever path they took, I am even more convinced now, GZ followed Trayvon to the T, and that Trayvon when he realized the guy was really going to follow him down that dark path, decided the safe bet was to turn around and face his pursuiter.
Like I said it doesn’t matter, amsterdam. I see your logic, and I see whooze’s and its all possible.
What’s not possible is what GZ claims.
Could be that TM rounded the corner and paused as GZ went by. Then maybe walked back up to the T to see if the guy who passed headed to RVC was coming back, but by then GZ had headed south and circled Jon’s building, only to cut off TM who was headed south by then. They both head north trying to be nonchalant but the chase speeds up until they are both actually running the last steps to Johns’s back year where TM wheels on GZ and they speak and them fight.
Thats close to what whonoze thinks. But they could have gone ANYWHERE they has all the time in the world.
If Trayvon had his GPS on when the incident occurred, we’ll know. What I’m afraid of, is that he turned it off because his battery was low.
If they did come from the T, Trayvon’s gps records would be enough to show that GZ followed him. If GZ chased him back north towards the T, Trayvon’s gps records could be interpreted as him going back to the T to confront GZ.
Barney seems pretty confident that GZ following and confronting Trayvon is an undisputed fact.
That could also mean he has additional witnesses or GPS data from GZ’s phone.
In the first interview (Crump) DeeDee mutters something about Trayvon sheltering under an apartment awning…….. and the interviewer says something about mailshed and she agrees NOT HAVING EVER BEEN THERE. It is quite possible she DID mean “apartment awning” because Trayvon had said something like that…. he’s in an apartment complex and under the awning.
The place to the west of RATL is apartment blocks, and does have awnings, high wing-shaped things over the entrances to the buildings. Crump, trying to clarify what she meant, perhaps instead succeeded in getting to “accept” a location quite different from what she (and Trayvon) meant. It’s not something she could really dispute as she’s never been there.
Everyone else has then accepted it as being the mailboxes, only because we know from GZ that is one place where he saw Trayvon. And for sure he WAS there, but at a later time in DeeDee’s narrative than is looks like, if the “apartment awning” is taken out of the story.
Now her memory of what was actually said has been tainted, as her mental “movie” of what Trayvon was describing has been altered by that substitution.
Perhaps this will slot back to the right times again if, in the witness box, she can be more specific about the times she meant by “then” and “later”.
I don’t believe I’ve ever seen any interview with Zimmerman where he says anything about seeing Martin at the mail kiosk next to the clubhouse.
unitron
@unitron
On Hannity’s program, Zimmerman alluded to seeing Trayvon in the mail shed. He said that Trayvon didn’t look like someone coming out to get their mail and running back inside to get out of the rain. In his NEN call, GZ said that Trayvon was walking about looking at houses and near the clubhouse.
I agree with Unitron. GZ never says anything about the mail kiosk, ever to the SPD.
Of course I think this is because GZ worked very hard NOT to, substituting instead an inconsistent, contradictory and self-serving false narrative.
He saw the kid “near the clubhouse” when the teen started “walking towards me, now.”
This is the moment where one must sync a stopwatch from. Wherever Trayvon is, he is described as “by the clubhouse” when he begins walking towards GZ’s car. That itself describes the mail kiosk, but recall that GZ gives specific (to him, lol) directions to the NEN call taker how to get to where he’s talking about…. and it damn sure ain’t the clubhouse parking lot.
I think a major portion of GZ’s lies all cascaded out when GZ decided to omit, obscure and obfuscate about the car-to-pedestrian chase.
Agreed… There’s a dropped call at around 6:54 that get’s reconnected and puts TM at the mail shed then. The mail shed is ~13 minutes from 711, there’s three more minutes to home.
So TM is in the mail shed quite some time before the NeN call starts.
HERE, from my master revisable timeline, please leave comments about any needed corrections
6:22:32 Two minutes later Trayvon leaves the store
but is not seen outside heading back East
6:23:00 SUNSET 2/26/12
6:29:19 Trayvon is seen outside heading back East
6:30:– Trayvon’s 5:09 call ends
6:30:– Trayvon makes call lasting 13 minutes. ends 6:43
6:38:– Is that Mark Osterman at the M&I bank? SP has
taken the video into evidence.
6:41:– Incoming call lasting 4 minutes ends at 6:45
6:42:19 approx. At mailboxes: ~3452 feet from
711 @ 4.4ft/sec. 13min. (this is a “guesstimate”
based on several factors:
1. Had he run he needed only approx. 7min.30sec.
2. He was being hustled along by an increasing rain.
Rain fall: 6:42 — 0.03
6:47 — 0.04
6:52 — 0.04
See Tchoupi’s Analysis:
http://tinyurl.com/8o3ltt7
6:43:– Trayvon’s 6:30 call ends
6:45:– Incoming 6:41 call ends
6:45:– Trayvon makes call lasting 5 minutes ends at 6:50
6:46 :– Trayvon makes call lasting 2 minutes ends at 6:48
6:47:00 CIVIL TWILIGHT ENDS
6:48:– 6:48 call ends
6:49:– Incoming call lasting 4 minutes ends at 6:53
6:50:– Trayvon’s 6:45 call ends.
6:54:– At mailboxes (est. 25 MIN WALKING AT
4.4ft/second = 6600 FEET
Trayvon needed only ~13:04 to reach the
mailboxes from 711.
Or eta of ~6:42:19 @4.4/ft/sec. walking speed.
6:54:– Incoming call lasting 18 minutes — ends 7:14:– ?
This puts him easily and securely at the RATL mailboxes by
6:54pm with ~564 feet remaining to home via the dog walk.
A 2 minute 8 seconds walk.
Even cutting back his walking speed to 3.3 ft/sec. doesn’t do much to change things. Oh, now I see where the 4.4 ft/sec comes from. It’s a 16 minute trip from home to the store, so someone [NLME of bcclist.com] used that speed, derived from his earlier works on an animated time line. This was the only speed that made things work.
“It started to rain so he decided to walk through another complex because it was rainy to hard he started walking then noticed someone was following him.”
I don’t buy any theory that has GZ pursuing Trayvon outside of RATL. The security vids are pretty clear that he spots TM for the first time under the RATL mail awning, and rather directly calls the police.
My guess is that DeeDee simply wasn’t clear on the geography, and/or collapsed time greatly in writing that passage in her letter. We don’t know exactly what she (or Trayvon) would have meant by “complex.” Also the route to the shortcut doesn’t really go into the complex west of RATL, it just cuts through it’s front parking lot.
In her interview with BdlR, DeeDee seems pretty firm that Trayvon was under the mail shed when he spotted GZ looking at him.
So either she was mistaken about Trayvon walking through another complex, and everything took place inside RATL, or he did take a shortcut, but did so well before Zimmerman left home. Otherwise the whole timeline we have established with physical evidence blows up. I think the physical evidence is more reliable than DeeDee’s prose descriptions…
I don’t think this statement is inconsistent with the your video analysis. You should look at her statement again. Actually, there is a period after “to hard”, and following word “He” is capitalized This is how it should read:
“It started to rain so he decided to walk through another complex because it was rainy to hard. He started walking then noticed someone was following him.”
Just like in her interviews, whenever DD says “he started walking” or “he started walking again” means that a certain period of time elapsed during his walking and their talking.
This statement was certainly condensed, and she never said that he was under a mail shed in the other complex. Agree that whatever way he went, he still ended up at the mail shed at RATL.
Yes, this statement is very very condensed, just the barest basics, and reads like putting in writing the bare bones of an oral discussion already concluded. Just recapping the main points. Certainly not to be taken as a substitute for her more complete statements.
Oh and this letter was released by “accident”……..we got it as attached to BDLRs rebuffal of MOM’s latest silly motion, for no apparent or explained reason. But in the latest discovery
Click to access states_13_redacted.pdf
where this letter is officially released, it says copies are provided to Defense Counsel but copies are not attached to the Discovery Exhibit filed with the Clerk. So the public was “not supposed” to get it.
Thanks, Bernie!!!!
Agree w all this… This letter is a greatly condensed summation of more complex events. And that pretty much what we up til now thought has happened, happened that way. She’s not wrong, however. She’s just being very brief.
Way back when NLME was posting and his timeline animation was being discussed, the talk around rejecting the use of FT’s cut through was that DD may have mentioned apartments, because TM simply mentioned that he could have sheltered there, but that in fact he did not and kept going down Oregon to the front gate and then to the mail shed. Many months later came Atty Crump’s “He hit the code”, which we believed came from Brandy or Tracey and meant that Trayvon had a code to enter through the front gate. Not that he should have needed one, since the gate wasn’t supposed to be locked until 7pm?
Anyway here’s my developing timeline, in case it’s of any help to visualize.
At this point, I am discounting many of Ben Crump’s statements as being fact, not because I think he purposefully lied, but because I think he injected so many of his own impressions into the case, that it’s causing a lot of heartache for the prosecution at this point. He barely talked to W8 before his interview with her and took what he heard from TM’s parents who admittedly didn’t hear her name until around Christmas before the shooting anyway. He got so many things wrong such as W8’s age (saying she was 16 instead of 18), her relationship with TM (calling her a girlfriend, when she was most likely a long-time classmate who only recently started talking to him, not dating, but was maybe “getting there”) and so his saying “had to hit the code”, if it did not come from W8 herself, then it’s just his embellishment of the story from his own mind.
Not disagreeing with you on Atty Crump. Just saying that his effects have been powerful, since he started giving us his impressions, back when we had little to work with. So, many powerful theories were built on the use of the front gate, when they probably should not have been.
Remember back when NLME was around? I was sure that Trayvon had used the cut through near Taaffe’s but, I was convinced that GZ had not seen him there when he came through. Then people started arguing against the Colonial Village route altogether. All I had then, was that DD had mentioned “apartments”, and all I could say was that she must have gotten that word from TM’s mentioning them, as a place where he could shelter if need be, on the way back.
Well, I’m glad to know that’s cleared up now. Meaning that GZ did not see Trayvon at Taaffe’s and that, he dreamed up that part of the story to conceal the fact that someone called him and told him where to look for Trayvon.
Because it was raining, they could not possibly figure out where Trayvon might stop to shelter, or when he might move on. So, it’s because of the variable nature of the weather, Trayvon’s progress had to be monitored all the way back from 711. The small boo booes on the back of GZ’s head are so completely dried, even before he gets to the station, they were likely prepared before he left home, just as I surmised long ago. I know that the Wagoner photo was altered. Because noses do not stretch. The picture I have on my evidence pile, http://tinyurl.com/co9ouag shows in the circled area, that the nose itself has been stretched downwards on the right side. Besides the nose is made up of cartilage, you can’t have that kind of distortion one minute and have it all cleared up minutes, hours or even weeks later.
Hey Lonnie, I’m not sure that it’s cleared up the GZ didn’t see TM at Taaffe’s at some point. I mean it’s always been obvious that that was not the FIRST place that he just HAPPENED to notice TM. Now it’s a question of whether TM was spotted by someone going through those other apartments and the car to pedestrian chase began there, and TM lost him for awhile as he cut through Taaffe’s place only to see GZ back on his tail. Who knows, what I would give for that GPS map right about now!
Now LLMPapa has located GZ’s sister Grace one block away from the Colonial Village Apartments mail kiosk. This whole thing just gets curiouser and curiouser… Please bring on the GPS data.
“Well, I’m glad to know that’s cleared up now.”
I think the recently released letter to Sybrina just muddled it up again.
“It started to rain so he decided to walk through another complex because it was raining to hard. ”
unitron
I don’t think so The time line shows what time is available. Change the route however you like, but the NEN call must work along with the dropped call at 6:54 pm. So, Trayvon must be in the RATL mail kiosk by 6:54 pm whatever route or other impediment gets thrown in his way.
Because he has to be in the mail shed by 6:54, he has to come through Colonial Village Apartment and FT’s place even earlier. That means he’s not available to be seen by GZ when he comes down RVC. There’s also no way for him to be over there with his sister because, While TM on foot can use the cut throughs, GZ in his truck has to go all the way out and around.
But the vehicle that parks by the mail shed in time to coincide with the start of the NEN call, does not come in the front gate, it comes down RVC west. So, maybe Grace figures into this somehow, but it’s just as easy to have her miss the entire thing as well. She’d have to be monitoring the complex roadways and mail kiosk. Why would she do that on a dark rainy night? The answer is, if she did it, she would not be doing it on her own, but as part of some overall plan in operation. Which means such a theory would have to hook her up with a network that’s monitoring TM’s progress very carefully.
I don’t mind building out theories, in fact you have to build them out to get some idea of just how big a network is required to support it. However, once you see the size of the network and measure it against the available human and other resources, well, involving Grace requires a network size and conspiracy complexity too unwieldy to fit comfortably in mind.
She’s simply too far away and her information is too remote to be critical or even on time for most important event, the start of the NEN call. Her notice would come too soon for GZ to react properly to it as observed. And it would contain too little contemporaneous information being so far away from the RATL kiosk.
That’s pretty much what it sounds like to me. However, I noted something yesterday. When I went to do another synopsis of the 284 page evidence dump pdf, I noticed that where I had previously picked up Serino not recognizing Osterman on page 15. Page 15 on the pdf embed had changed and was now blank.
We all know that anyone can alter pdf files. Then post them to document hosting sites that allow embeds. Change the main/original document and all the embeds, all over the net, will change to. So I have to wonder about some of the information we’re getting. It certainly has been striking to me over the last year to see so much change so dramatically. But, since I had not been keeping notes much, I just put such conflicts down to my error.
In this case that cannot be, because I had both the pdf document and word pad open at the same time, and was reading in one and typing in the other. So keep any eye all.
These documents are widely distributed, I can’t imagine this being done on purpose. It is probably a problem with the document hosting site.
I’ve download most of the documents. If you need it, I can give it to you.
I agree that the missing page you saw is not evidence yet of tampering. Did you try to download or view the 284 pages more than once, and with more than one browser, and other variables like which ISP you were using? Sounds like a glitch in data downloading to me.
The question to ask is, “who benefits?” Who would have the insane audacity to alter data that anyone can verify is now altered and how does this affect anything other than bragging rights of bloggers? The real “discovery” has already been given to the defense in hard copy.
Vigilance is one thing, slight paranoia is another.
The question “who benefits” is too easy to answer if you’ve spent any time on the net at all.
There are, as you well know, creeps who get their kicks doing every manner of stupid things. Nor does there seem to be anything like too much effort needed, to stop them from mounting these wasteful efforts.
Of course, I also realize it could just be a glitch, but it could just as easily be some kook getting his kicks. I just thought that the net being what it is, better to let people know there’s something to be on the look out for, so that if someone is messing around, we get early discovery. We know the opportunity is there. It’s easy enough to download pdf conversion software, convert a document, alter a page or two, convert back to pdf, then upload to scribd or google drive and start passing around the link. Or, even hack it into a trusted site.
You do realize that most virus writers could be earning substantial salaries as programmers, yet they choose to wreak mayhem for nothing and risk jail.
So, while I’m not saying there be monsters under every bed, let’s not go the other way and pretend there are none at all.
Thanks, it just seemed strange to see just the one page in the whole document blank.
I’ll check it again later maybe as you say, its just a hosting problem.
@Aussiekay
I like the way you think. And BDLR is steely-eyed missile man! he da MAN.
@ amsterdan re: GPS.
Wouldn’t it be wild if TM had his GPS on SO that he could navigate a shortcut home thru the neighboring complex? Then checked in a few times along the way, or left it running with a “how to?” or sents some dropped pins?
@willis
I just bought an android and gps on was the default setting. We know that Trayvon had his gps on earlier that week. Trayvon would’ve had to make a concious decision to turn it off, if indeed it was off. Maps uses gps information, so do other apps that have nothing to do with directions or tracking. Camera functions for example, may use it. I am not sure when gps data is saved on your phone.
I found a couple of free or cheap tracking apps for android, that would allow runners, bike riders and hikers, to track and save the routes they took. Trayvon loved his bike, according to DD. He may have had one of those apps running in the background.
GPS does use quite a bit of energy, and Trayvon had been talking and walking for over an hour. He may have turned gps off when he noticed that his battery was getting low. I agree with Aussie, if gps was on, we will know what path Trayvon took.
Here is an example of a Blackberry app, that would log gps data on the phone itself.
http://www.emacberry.com/gpslogger.html
Sounds like something GZ would use. According to MO he is frugal.
Going on the prosecution’s grins and O”Mara’s crying about getting/not getitng data and not having it interpreted for him, I’d say they DID get GPS data from Trayvon’s phone.
It wouldn’t matter if it’s accurate only to 50 feet. That is the width of the grassy area where the doggie path is. That is close to the distance from the T to where the shooting happened.
If they map it up at 50ft diameter blobs moving through RATL, it will still give a good picture of the route Trayvon took, how long each section took him and where, and for how long, he was stationary.
But did they get any from GZ’s phone???
IF they did, a simple animation with the NEN call playing in the background would show, in under 10 minutes, who was the aggressor. The rest is then just formalities. Nice if they also got some from his truck, but that may have been too late to go after.
We didn’t hear the defense about the gps data anymore. I think they would’ve pushed the conspiracy theory about the unclear chain of custody if, as they claimed, only data for the 26th was missing. I think there is a good chance that they have gps data from Trayvon’s phone.
If they have gps data from GZ’s phone, you are right, just a simple animation with the nen call will do.
Well like we have seen with other issues, we know the defense is not above making a fuss over things that simply are not so regarding what they get and don’t get as discovery.
The possibility that the “hand drawn map” they saw was the diagram for unlocking the code on TM’s phone which then can and probably has blown up into a “map that shows trayvon doubled back and the state is holding back because Obama told them to” once the suggestion is passed on to treepers is an obvious example.
The whining about not getting data from the 26th has produced no further motions from the defense to the judge demanding discovery. That’s what I note.
Exactly, the whining stopped, and it is never mentioned again. We know Trayvon had gps logging software running on his phone that week. MOM made a remark about the accuracy, but that data for the 26th is missing. MOM then starts picking on the chain of custody of the phone. Next they never mention it again. We know their modus operandus by now. If there wouldn’t have been data for the 26th, they’d never stop talking about it.
I say there is gps data for the 26th. Big question is, does the prosecution have gps data from GZ’s phone?
I think the defense doesn’t know. It is possible GZ doesn’t know. That is why they made this broad discovery request. GZ bought a new phone when the donations started pouring in. He may have sold his old phone.
I think the SPD made an image of GZ’s phone the night of the incident, and again around march 22nd.
If the prosecution has gps data from that night, retrieved from GZ’s phone, you can stick an apple in GZ’s mouth.
I don’t understand why we the people aren’t getting to see the GPS data if it’s part of the discovery that the prosecution filed and gave to the defense. We’ve seen other things that were handed over, have we not?
Is the defense sitting on it for a reason? If so what could that reason be – that the material is exculpatory and proves the innocence of the defendant? I tend to doubt that.
A foia request may be needed. There is one person on FL who files foia’s regularly. There may have been more interesting stuff on Trayvon’s phone. People do film these days as a means to document incidents. Only Trayvon’s phone was found on the ground, all the other stuff stayed in his pockets. We shouldn’t discount that possibility.
The data would be a big pile of meaningless numbers. Ir has been passed on to the defence. Why it wasn’t made public I don’t know.
What they worked out from the data would be work product, and they’d not give that to anyone ahead of the trial. Not even raw, never mind neatly overlaid onto a map of RATL.
If it proved the innocence of the defendant we’d never stop hearing about it from the GZ camp. Their deathly silence on it after the first day rather tends to show the opposite, or they truly have no idea what the numbers mean.
I checked what these low impact gps loggers register. Timestamps and coordinates. It should be pretty easy to feed the data into one of the tracking apps. Or you can just plot it in maps.
Very quiet about this subject on the GZ support sites too.
It’s like crickets after all those months of the treepers screaming about “ping” logs. If I wasn’t too paranoid to actually go over there, I’d post “ping! ping! ping! ping! ping!” in multiple posts until I got banned.
I don’t know if the SP is required to release it to the public or just hand it over to the defense. Most of the documents, I understand, someone has to pay the county for, before they can obtain it to post. At least AxiomAmnesia is fund raising to cover there cost of obtaining documents to post.
In any event I think GPS data would come in the form of these really huge CSV files. (comma delimited files) and so it will take a special software reader to make any sense of it. Otherwise there’s nothing to read. The decoded files may simply be considered work product, since different software will provide different decode results depending on the precision it’s set to, and the number of available fields it can decode.
We’ll probably just have to wait and see.
Lonnie,
You can convert CSV files to excel or another spreadsheet without using special software.
Of course you can, but you have to know in advance what data each field contains and how to format it for presentation. Just getting CSV file opened is, in most cases meaningless.
If the data is stored in a proprietary format, then you need a proprietary decoder.
I think that by 2009 most cell phones and providers wanted and got military precision GPS, because they wanted to access consumers exact locations, to make targeted advertising and local services available. As usual it’s all about making money, any other benefit is purely accidental and secondary.
Holy smokes, batman! did GZ’s sister really live one street over from the mail kiosk of the apartment complex neighboring RATL?
Speaking of “holy”, Happy Easter! to anyone observing the day, both the religious devout and the egg chasing pagans. 🙂
OK, I’m aggravated. I was trying to find the document mentioning the surveillance videos of the other apartments. I think it was only mentioned as a demand for specific discovery by the defense on Feb 12 or 13, but the document has disappeared and it’s also not in the state’s website listing all documents connected to the case. I wonder if the defense pulled the motion and why??? Does anyone have the original pdf file?
http://gzlegalcase.com/index.php/court-documents?start=18
I was just curious because I think but am not sure that the request was for the surveillance video at the Lakes Edge apartments which are west of colonial village. So the surveillance might have shown TM getting off the main road over on Rhinehart Rd (soon after leaving the 7-11 and not off of Oregon Ave.
@wassointeresting
The other day lurking at TL, or perhaps DWM, or both, they were complaining GZlegalcase had moved docs so links weren’t working and they are the ones who would be most informed, I suppose.
It was Lakes Edge. Here’s a handy list I pinched from… nah, you don’t wanna know but I doctored it to avoid whatever! (lists are in alphabetical order not directional)
FDLE checked for CCTV (26/03/12):
Cycle Gear (1157 Rinehart Rd)
Enterprise (1177 Rinehart Rd)
Gold Mine 704 (1129 Rinehart Rd)
Hop Sing’s (1181 Rinehart Rd)
Kohl’s (1371 Rinehart Rd)
Lake’s Edge (Plantation Lakes Cir. & Rinehart Rd)
M&I/BMO Harris Bank (1381 Rinehart Rd)
Platinum Nail & Spa (1173 Rinehart Rd)
Sam’s Club (1101 Rinehart Rd)
Trusco Bank (1185 Rinehart Rd)
Those having CCTV were:
Kohl’s
Lake’s Edge Apartments
M&I/BMO Harris Bank
Sam’s Club
TRUSTCO Bank
Defence requested CCTV tapes NRD18/01/2013
Kohl’s parking lot
Lake’s Edge Apartments
Sam’s Club
OK, because it’s a holiday, I’m going to let my imagination loose (somebody through a lasso around my neck if I run too wild here). To expand on this sister/brother conspiracy theory, GZ did say that he texted his sister that he was going shopping, so was he on the way to the store or maybe back from the store to drop something off for her? Or maybe on a sunday night, he and Shellie were apart because they had a fight (hat tip to Whonoze’s domestic hypothesis), so Shellie goes over to her dad’s place and GZ is at his sister’s place moping, when there goes a black teenager wandering through the neighborhood, and he gets to take his mind of personal troubles as he puts on his crimefighting cape. Jumps into his truck and goes cruising after the teenager. Wouldn’t this corroborate DeeDee’s tale of a long tail? (or car to pedestrian chase, per Willis) and the fact that TM sounded winded if he had been running from two apartment complexes over (starting at Lakes Edge apartments?)
Finally, his sister is the ONLY person he would every cover for, or she would be happy to cover for him. I think he loves her more than Shellie (no, I’m not alluding to any sort of romantic love there, his myspace page declares how much he loves his little sis.)
Again, and pointedly: the long tail is not in reference to a car-to-pedestrian chase directly. It’s about how the timing of what DIDN’T happen doesn’t fit GZ’s lies.
Yes there was a car-to-pedestrian chase and YES Dee Dee speaks fairly clearly of this on multiple occasions, but each time she does so, she’s talking about the time TM left the mail kiosk at RVC and walked past GZ’s car.
I think many things are possible. This sister business may have some merit to it, who knows. What’s clear at the present however is that the evidence we have at present is NOT suggestive of opening up a huge can of worms that points fingers at the sister theory just yet IMO.
IMO it’s something to wait until we know more about, and something to not throw the baby out with the bathwater about.
Dee Dee is very clear that Trayon stopped at ONE mail kiosk. This is her story it’s the one where TM spotted a creepy guy in a car, and then bravely walked for home before all hell broke loose. She’s as clear as she can be about it whenever she is asked intelligent questions.
She knows he left a mail kiosk and was in return chased by a car and this caused him to run away. And she knows her call dropped around this time. I’m too pissed off to lay it all here for the nth time. But this sister-kiosk shit is bunk if you think this is what Dee Dee is talking about regarding Trayvon running away from a moving car with a creepy guy in it. That happened on TTL while GZ was on the phone w the NEN call taker.
Many things are possible. What GZ claimed happened isn’t possible.
I suppose it’s worth re-examining things in light of the comment in passing from Dee Dee’s letter but having done so, it’s not proof of anything at all, especially a wide-eyed conspiracy theory that throws out all the sensible and rational conclusions we’ve painstakingly arrived at thus far.
Yep, the timeline and phone logs sort of precludes TM stopping at two mail sheds for any length of time, such that it makes it possible for GZ to spot him anywhere before 6:54pm.
Obviously he has got to be in the RATL mail shed by 6:54 to make his NEN call work in any event. http://tinyurl.com/bn5e4xe
Baby with bath water… never!
IMBS but I don’t understand why the one must debunk the other? Trayvon was a very tall lad, tall = long strides = walks fast. He may have ran some from 7/11 to get out of the rain (or to elude GZ if it became clear he was tailing him from there). Couldn’t he still have got to RATL in time for the Mailbox timeline… but a bit tired and out of breath as DD described him near the end?
@WSI
Yes! Exactly! It would certainly explain how Trayvon was tired and/or out of breath as DD notes. The idea at the lounge that it was normal for a sporty teen to get tired with a walk there and back and a short sprint up TTL was never really satisfactory, more a defence to the criticisms from Team Z.
Oh jesus. I wish LLMPapa would peer review his CTs before posting this crap. He means well but has consistently got things wrong by about 15 degrees off the true heading and personally, I’m tired of it. If that was the “mail kiosk” Trayvon was initially spotted at, I suppose it’s possible, but this is hardly “proof” of anything at all. Increasing the amount of casual speculation is hardly helpful IMO.
Plus, he’s doxing someone without any real reason. Now the defense has ammunition to claim the people who are in support of the family of Trayon Martin are engaged in a tit-fo-tat dangerous game of trying to unmask and put at physical risk the persons material to the case before the trial has started.
For shame. For stupid. For popularity on YouTube. I’m appalled, and he’s not even right about his bullshit theory I’m willing to bet.
If you’re going to say anything less than totally worshipful about LLMPapa over at Leatherman’s, could you
a. Save it for the next thread there instead of the current one, which has forked too many times already,
and
b. Give me some advance notice so that I know to duck and cover and then not go into that thread without full protective gear,
and finally,
c. Also co-ordinate with me on who brings the popcorn?
: – )
unitron
Too late, he’s already posted that video in the current thread over at the lounge, taking it even further away from the original topic.
unitron
@willis, there are many many of papa’s videos at which I shake my head because he doesn’t actually know the totality of the evidence as well as some other bloggers, but provides entertainment value to the crowd.
I did wince when I saw the picture of his sister (although that picture has been floating around the internet, just not in main stream media), kinda like I winced when DeeDee’s supposed picture was posted on Tchoupi’s site and others (at this point, we don’t know which picture is correct and should never have been posted by a Trayvon friendly site). I should HOPE that his sister does not live at that address anymore. So absent her picture and her address, it’s no different than discussing her involvement than discussing Shellie’s involvement. (being that neither voluntarily talked to the media but both did conspire to help hide GZ’s money).
That being said, the only reason why I would ask that we step back from our own months of analysis and prior thinking to consider the possibility that TM did shelter somewhere else earlier than his arrival to RATL. Of course, that would require reanalysis of the rain patterns. Yes, it’s too much to think that he sheltered at two different mail kiosks, but what would prevent us from accepting that he sheltered at the other apartment complex and that’s where DeeDee called in?
Until now, I’ve been VERY SKEPTICAL of any CT’s but, if his sister did live in the direct walking path from the 7-11, past the the clubhouse and then the T, then it’s worth a double take, IMO. GZ’s text messages to his sister that night would be enlightening, such as one that might say “Hey sis, I’ll stop over and fix that light bulb for ya before I go shopping.” I am not thinking that the sister is the tipster, just that GZ was actually over there and that’s where he spotted TM himself, possibly, just possibly.
OK, I’m going to go watch X-files on Netflix to fill my head with more conspiracy theories.
“Hey sis, I’ll stop over and fix that light bulb for ya before I go shopping.”
FYI, that was just a stupid made up hypothetical text to illustrate that GZ had a close relationship with his sister and could have been over there at anytime for any reason, and not a variation of the joke “How many Zimmermans does it take to screw in a light bulb….”
@WSI
First, I am assuming by CT’s you are referring to “conspiracy theories” so if not the case please pay less notice to this.
IMBW, from a reply to me LLMPapa posted me several weeks ago at the lounge when I commented my long held idea that I from DD’s references to a “Plaza” and “another apartment”, “shade”, etc. that Trayvon did not walk the noisy dirty road trying to talk on the phone back to RATL, but crossed through the adjoining complexes on his way home, and from the link he gave me to a map image of the mail shed in Colonial Village he has stored, I don’t think he means that GZ’s sister was involved in the death of Trayvon Martin (the CT, no?), rather that GZ was familiar with the back routes and that he was especially familiar with Colonial Village because his sister lived there which as someone posts above or below could mean he went there that evening to, say, “fix her light bulb”!
I don’t see that this would change, upset or contradict too much of the work you guys have done with such enormous dedication, because Trayvon still had to enter RATL and walk to the dog walk. I must admit I have always found incredible that Trayvon entered RATL through the cut through furthest from the road, i.e. via Taffe’s, to backtrack and go home via the clubhouse when entering via Taffe’s as Taffe told Marinade Dave, would place him on the shortest route to Brandi’s, i.e up RVC, and he would have avoided the dog walk had he gone that way.
I think the importance of this new possibility is that it would place GZ watching and stalking Trayvon for a much longer time, disproving even where he first saw Trayvon which would surely convince any jury his whole tale was a lie from start to finish.
I also think possible GZ may have seen Trayvon leaving RATL via the gate, (with LLMPapa’s information, perhaps on his way to his sister’s), and either followed to 7/11 or left him to go to his sisters for something for whatever and on leaving saw Trayvon, the suspicious guy he saw not 15/30 mins earlier leaving RATL standing/sitting there looking around. He could have then followed him and when Trayvon took the dirt tracks to cross into the next complex GZ could have whipped around on the road, and when he crossed into RATL via the lower cut through, whipped round through the gate and drove up and down RVC once or twice until he spotted Trayvon and from where it more or less picks up with your conclusions, the only problem, Trayvon didn’t stay as long at the mail shed as was thought. (This is a very rough draft as others are so much better at this than I so please feel free to discard, pull to pieces, or use at will, gently as I am not as tough as I may seem!)
@grbrsb, yes CT means conspiracy theory, and I was the one who wrote the “light bulbs” comment. I guess I don’t mean CT in a totally negative light, it’s just my shorthand to mean the involvement of an individual, anyone other than GZ. Here, there’s no evidence at all that his sister actuality lived there at the time, if she was actually there or had anything to do with it all. It’s just a twist that may pan out to be something or nothing whatsoever.
We have to remember that this written statement by DeeDee matches what she says in the cleaned up copy of her interview. It’s not as if she has said anything new or different, it’s just thanks to the incredibly inept interview skills of her interviewers (as unitron puts it) that we didn’t get a clear and complete picture of her testimony, and we still don’t.
However, i do agree with you, amsterdam and whoever else that whatever might have happened before 6:54 doesn’t change TM’s and GZ’s movements down TTL and to the T. We will just have to see if there are any real evidence of the “pursuit of Trayvon Martin” before he entered the RATL complex.
Thanks WSI. One point, it was only today I introduced the sister into my long held theory that Trayvon returned and/went to 7/11 via the neighbouring complexes because of LLMPapa’s video. Whichever route it was a long one and he could have been spotted at any point… I know the motto, everything’s possible but what GZ claims is not possible. I really hope you guys are right and that the GPS or something throws the much needed light!
@gbrbsb
I think Trayvon was near the mail area around 6:54. That fits the phone records, it also fits that the rain starts coming down very hard right around that time. You can really see it is raining hard around 6:55 6:56 in the east pool video.
Unless GZ never parked on TTL, Trayvon was at the mail area when GZ said “now he is coming towards me”.
@amsterdam
I have no doubt of that but would it affect GZ first seeing Trayvon outside of RATL, or going out of RATL, locating him again in Colonial Village and following him back?
Another point, could it have also rained hard when Trayvon left the 7/11 because in several places, now including this recently disclosed letter or statement, IMO DD clearly indicates that it rained hard when he left the 7/11.
Not really, DD says that soon after Trayvon left 711 he told her it started raining. The localized rain report shows that the rain increased gradually as Trayvon walked back to RATL, getting very heavy within a half minute to a minute before he reached the mail shed, so he had to run the last stretch.
@gbrbsb
Yes it is possible it rained hard before and that he stopped earlier on his route. I would say it is likely that he stopped earlier. It is only a 15 minute walk froM the 7 eleven to the clubhouse, if Trayvon arrived at the mail area at 6:54 it would’ve taken him 24 minutes to get there.
The point is we just don’t know exactly how he walked. What we do know is that there is a car on TTL at the time the nen call is made. The person in that car seemed very focussed on the mail shed and if that person wasn’t GZ, GZ was not on TTL when he got out of his car to follow Trayvon.
What ever happened earlier, my conclusion is that when GZ called the nen, Trayvon was in the mail area on TTL.
We don’t know where exactly he walked.
We also don’t know where exactly it rained.
There are two weather report charts here from the 2 closest weather stations, only a mile or two apart, and they show different rain patterns. That on-again off-again rain can be very patchy.
http://imgur.com/a/bcAII
That’s okay, he said her address is to the west of the mail “shed” when it’s obvious from the picture that it’s to the east, so all the doxers will be too confused to find it.
: – )
Putting Trayvon on that path would seem to make it more likely he came in through the shortcut Zimmerman claims to have seen him near and not less likely, so I’m not sure how this is supposed to punch holes in Zimmerman’s story.
But someone please tell LLMPapa to turn the music up louder, I could almost still hear what Witness 8 was saying.
unitron
Everytime I read one of your comments, I want to take a shower.
What ???. Is it catching ???
Most times when I read Unitron’s comments, I’d like to dunk his head under water. 🙂
I reckon he’d float! 😉
@gbrbsb
But can I hold him under — just a little bit? For a few seconds?
S’pose you could, but if he floats you get to burn him at the stake… Hmmm, nice smell… toast!
@unitron, people keep talking about you today, you must be sneezing your head off (that’s what my mama used to tell me was the reason you sneeze for no reason….she also said that if you catch the hiccups, it’s because you stole something. Other than that, she really was a wise woman, rest her soul).
“unitron, people keep talking about you today, you must be sneezing your head off …”
Funny you should mention that, I was well into double digits a while ago.
Seriously. Wondered if it was going to stop before I blew out an eardrum or something.
Never noticed any hiccups correlation, though.
Maybe I hiccuped too much or stole too little.
: – )
unitron
@unitron, geez, either you’re gonna blow an eardrum sneezing or somebody’s gonna sneak up and waterboard ya, if not for your comments, then simply for just beating everybody out as the first to “follow” the professor’s posts. Neither fate sounds good. Well, you be careful out there. (I’m still wondering how you survived the school yard days.)
@gbrbsb
It makes me feel dirty having to share space with a person who exchanges niceties at that cesspool of racists over at the cth.
@amsterdam
Yeah. For one side a really thick skin… for the other a really bunged up nose!
@wsi
I think you are mistaken dogwhistles for social awkwardness. There is a difference you know. I am calling it for what it is.
@unitron
It only looks like that in aerial view. To cross through Colonial Village (CV) the direct route is Millwood Drive (MD), running from the covered “mailboxes” to in front of the cut throughs where it stops dead.
Using the dummy on Oregon Av. in satellite view, centred slightly forward in front of the cut throughs if you look back towards CV, you can see how MD. ends as near as damn it directly in front of the cut through nearest Oregon Av., the most obvious to use if walking to Brandi’s via the clubhouse. Furthermore, looking broadside in front of the gap you can see the terrain from MD to Taffe’s cut through is hilly making it more dodgy, especially at night.
You can also see how MD. ends directly in front of the lower cut through, not Taffe’s, by turning Bing’s birds-eye view 180 degrees (I can’t seem to turn any degrees in Google).
I meant “more likely he came in through the shortcut Zimmerman claims to have seen him near” than that he came in the main gate off of Oregon.
I saw your magnum opus “over there” addressed to SearchingMind and I’m wondering if it was only the professor’s new post that distracted enough people to keep you from being savaged from all sides for it.
Maybe they’ll wait a couple of days and then start talking about you behind your back after that thread’s been pushed down the stack by a couple of others.
unitron
Oh, OK, so all my mapping work for nothing! Anyway, just in case you didn’t realise there are two cut throughs there, nearer and furthest to OA. The furthest is by Taffe’s where GZ claims, but it just doesn’t make any sense whether Trayvon cross countried through CV or sauntered down OA.
Ooooh, savaged!!! But hold on, I didn’t think I’d written anything even minimally troll like (I think you do a better job at that!) either to Crane or in my reply, because I have no qualms with the letter cum statement anyway… I believe it!
Trouble is it’s becoming difficult to say anything there that can’t be perceived as suspect! Gotta walk on tipytoe… gotta walk on tipytoe… you’d do well writing it 100 times cos more days like yesterday and I see swatted… no, fulminated!
I don’t know what to think or say. I’ll be happy when the trial starts.
People have to admit they are following this case for the sheer entertainment value it provides sometimes.
IMO this is speculation for the purposes of speculation. Too many variables to produce a suable result given the lack of real info to process.
@willis, Good for you for warning the professor about featuring papa’s video. I’m fine with the speculation part, as everything is speculative, but her picture should not be in that video and especially her address if it hasn’t been confirmed that she does not still live there. It could also endanger whoever else that might live there now. I saw Papa’s response to you regarding her address as being provided as evidence and therefore is public record. That may be true, but it’s not as if she intentionally wanted her address out there. Many of the witnesses names and addresses are out there, but responsible bloggers choose to redact the information.
@Whonoze, Please delete my post above with the link to Papa’s video,
@WSI. thanks. Maybe I was too harsh, but it struck me as irresponsible to put the photo and address vicinity into a YouTube video that is mainly out there for sport.
This too shall pass. I’m just not looking forward to hearing MO’M throw this to the press as “evidence” that the New Black Panther Party is out to kill Arfo-Peruvians using drone strikes ordered by Obama and orchestrated by BDLR and Judge Nelson. I hate having to read those inane motions to the court. Waste of good time.
@willis, I am baffled that several who responded to you over at FL did not understand that GZ’s sister never courted the media, unlike RZ Jr. Just because her picture is on GZ’s own social media doesn’t mean it’s fair game to splash it about. Also, her address was on the report of GZ’s past NEN calls but we know that not all documents are properly redacted, and in fact I think her name was redacted from that very same page so there was some effort to conceal her identity even there on a public document. I mean, take GZ’s own mother who HAS talked to the media, but always in shadow, if we found a picture of her, would we publish it? No! I’m very curious to read the professor’s opinion on this.
If I understand LLMPapa did his research, he only posted what was already known to the public. Well, maybe not so widely known, but already released and publicly available info. So there are no privacy issues. Carry on.
Take a deep breath.
DD links her narrative to the disconnected calls. We know the last “hung up” call occurred at 6: 54 pm. If you check the east pool video, you can actually see it is raining very hard around 6:55 pm. If what GZ is true, that he parked his car on TTL, GZ was trolling the mail area around 7:08 pm. There is no other car driving on TTL. There is only one path that has Trayvon walking towards GZ, that fits the timing and the physical evidence.
Is it possible Trayvon stopped in the other complex? Yes, I think so. It would explain why he didn’t arrive at RATL until 6:54 pm.
I haven’t watched LLMPapa’s latest yet. I think he has some great videos, and some I don’t care for too much.
I’m convinced GZ didn’t spot Trayvon near Taffe’s because of the timing and the clubhouse videos. You know as well as I do, there is no car moving in front of the clubhouse and on TTL, consistent with GZ’s narrative. There is however a car moving consistent with DD’s narrative, and what we can hear on the nen call. I am going to stay away from the sister theory because there s just no evidence to back that up.
Exactly. TM may have cut thru the other complex, but it wasn’t where GZ called the NEN that’s for sure. That call begins around 7:08 or so. We know where he was then – trolling the mail kiosk at R@TL unless he has a teleporter too like he claims TM must have.
After having given much thought to the idea of Grace’s involvement, I’ve concluded that her role, if any, would have been too limited to be of much use, and at the same time, would have required an inordinately expanded conspiracy network, much too heavy for the players we have to carry it. Thus, in exchange for having her cover approximately 100 feet of Trayvon’s progress, she’d have had to wait almost an hour, focused on her stretch of the road, while remaining at the ready to issue reports, not one of which would be critical or necessary. Considering that Trayvon makes it to the RATL mail shed by 6:54 no matter what, and that GZ was not prepared to catch him there, and would have missed him if not for the rain.
Conclusion, even if there was a role she was willing to play, there would have been no need for her to be involved at all. When people plan to break rules and do things they believe are so wrong that they must be concealed with lies, they are especially careful to have only the barest minimum of people on board.
@Lonnie
IMBW, but I don’t know if LLMPapa meant to create a CT around GZ’s sister other than that she was living in in Colonial Village which meant GZ would be familiar with the complex and visit it, and that it could be he was there that night and saw Trayvon crossing through or sheltering.
Of course, but the suggestions and implications of what it imports cannot be ignored. They must be dealt with. Anyone claiming to be an investigator, would be remiss to dismiss viable theories out of hand, without good and sufficient reason therefore. While responsible investigators w/authority have more constraining them from examining the more fringe theories available, we on the net have no such constraints and may pursue any theory until it’s “currency” runs out.
LLMPapa did his job, he sparked a debate down a new pathway to be explored. We did our job and found it to be a cul-de-sac. All is right with the world.
Just throwing it out here, someone, I think Trent, had a video way back showing the theory that Trayvon entered via Colonial Village, based partly on the “other complex” statement in DeeDee’s first interview.
The document LMMPapa shows, giving Grace’s age as “early 30s” doesn’t fit with her being “little sis” as that would make her older that GZ.
We don’t know anything about this sister — who is her mother? what was the mother’s relationship with PapaZ ? if it appears from the ages that she was born while Papa and Gladys were married, how come she was in close contact with the family? it would be most unusual for the product of an extra-marital affair to be close to the family, especially as that implies the mother would also be close or at least in regular contact.
How likely is it that a girl, brought up by a mother NOT married to the father, would have the father’s surname????? in most such cases the child is brought up with the mother’s surname, even if the father is known and has acknowledged the child. So I don’t think her name would be Zimmerman anyway.
In fact, what’s the evidence that she’s half-sister through Robert Snr?????
Scenario, while we’re on CTs : R and G get married, turns out they can’t have kids, her sister OR SOMEONE ELSE CLOSE has a number of kids she can’t keep, for one reason or another. R&G adopt them. The half-sister then could be one the birth mother DID keep and/or adopted to someone else. Much more likely on this scenario they’d keep in touch. (GZ and Robert Jnr look so much alike, they had to have had the same father as well). But in fact we have no evidence GZ is not R&G’s son, this whole “he’s G’s sister’s” speculation was tossed in at FL by troll Ajamazin with no evidence, other than Spanish genealogy records for similar names, which we know there’s a lot of about the same.
@ aussie, Good catch with the early 30’s age not being consistent with the “little sister”, Now I’m thoroughly confused….
Trying to find hidden ‘truth’ in the way DeeDee phrases things is an errand for fools. She is not at all precise about time and space questions, ever. She paraphrases sometimes, or simply loses focus and mis-states things. She did tell Crump, once, that GZ said, “What you talking about?” rather than “What you doing around here?” but this is absolutely meaningless, since she told the story numerous times before and after this using the later phrase. This is just the way most people talk in casual conversation: they make approximations and figurative substitutions.
This case has been dry as a bone for real information for some time, so as the Martin/Zimmerman junkies wait for the trial, the tick tocking ever so slowly, they seem to have nothing better to do than let their speculative imaginations run wild, and get sucked into working off/against the ‘blame everything on DeeDee and Crump’ narrative spinning out ad infinitum over at TalkLeft. IMHO it’s a product of boredom, or pent up energy needing to go somewhere, anywhere. But it’s a waste of time. You might as well find something else productive to do for the next couple months — assuming the trial starts on time — because you know you’re going to be glued to the coverage once it does and won’t be getting fuck-all done IRL then.
We can be pretty sure that the defense has nothing but their smear campaign in the works, but we have no idea what the State has as evidence, and what kind of case they’ll present at trial. This is frustrating as it leaves us out in the cold. I hope they make the argument on forensics and facts rather than witness statements, but we don’t know what their strategy will be. Bernie isn’t showing his cards.
If it comes down to ‘he said, she said’ in court, as Jeralyn’s Jesters seem to imagine it will, the outcome could very well hinge on DeeDee, and that could lead to the prosecution’s case hitting one a number of icebergs hard enough to rip a hole of ‘reasonable doubt’ in at least one juror’s mind. This is the age of CSI: forensic cops are all over TV, and anyone at all in tune with pop culture is going to expect that kind of evidence to show up in a big trial IMHO. This is potentially a big advantage for the State, as the defense has nothing to offer here: not a single expert on their witness list. If the State can’t do as well as the blogosphere has — our security cam analyses; clear analyses of the time and space impossibilities of GZ’s account, Papa’s analysis of the blood trails and gravity, and his Knox-busting demonstration of the bullet hole misalignment — they shouldn’t be trying cases. Perhaps Bernie has an ace or two in the hole in the form of GPS data or GZ’s phone records (I’m guessing the later is more likely since one of the first defense motions way back when was to get them sealed). But maybe not…
BTW, speaking of silly CT’s, I ask that Trent Sawyer and his loopy videos not be brought into the discussion here. Leave that shit for the loungers, please.
Here is something that has fascinated me for a long time.
Here are GZ’s 911 calls.
http://www.motherjones.com/documents/327330-george-zimmerrman-911-call-history
At the top of the pages you will find the names of the person who created the events and if a leo is dispatched, the name of the person who did the dispatch. Those entries are followed by the terminal nr. they were working on.
The first entry allways shows the empid, and terminal id of the person who created the event. The first entry is allways a cmdid EVA with the name of the employee in the remarks section of the event log.
Cmdid’s EVA and EVM show the name of the employee as shown in the heading under ” created by” and “dispatched by”. You can recognize them by the terminal id’s.
If you check the event beginnining on page 4, you can see that the event is created by MDYCUS on terminal TM03. If you scroll down to page 5, you can read the first entry created on TM03 by empid 103066. The name in the remarks column should say MDYCUS, but the name is blacked out. There is an EVM for empid 103066 a little higher on page 5, again the remarks column should read MDYCUS, again the name is blacked out.
There is one other event where this is done. It is on page 10. This time it is the employee that did the dispatch. The name at the top is KRODRIGI on terminal TM13. You can find the empid for KRODRIGI in the DIS entry. It is empid 106035. This event shows an EVM for emp 106035. The remarks column should read KRODRIGI, again it is blacked out.
These are the only 2 events I could find where the dispatcher’s names were blacked out. They are also the only 2 logs where the names are in capital letters.
They have different employee id’s, so they must be 2 different people. I also couldn’t find these emp id’s in one of the other logs.
One other thing. GZ was a regular caller, but there is whole year without any calls.
Okay I’m interested but pretty confused. Let’s go through this slowly since I am cop-speak and geek-speak challenged.
empid = employee Identification # (ID number?)
Cmdid = something? ID ?
KRODRIG – first name starts with K, last name probably Rodriguez?
MDYCUS – M(ark?) Dycus – someone named Dycus
EVA and EVM = ?
another acronym = ?
I’m guessing that anything that looked like a name, they blacked it out just on general principle.
What I noticed is that that event that begins on page 9 of that mother jones pdf of GZ’s 911 calls is about his “little sister” having a “suspicious person” is at her front door, and George apparently not being able to reach her on the phone after that. He’s driving on Interstate 4 while calling 911 and can’t or wont get off the phone to look up her number so the police can try it? Or her home number or cell number?
perhaps the censor redacted some all upper case names but missed the lower case ones not knowing or caring that they were names of 911 call takers.
I’m not sure at all what the significance of any of this us supposed to be.
There is an address listed under a heading I don’t understand – it says 2015 Nextel NE-W (new?) State RD 434, which is a space of around 23 characters long. Lower on the page it says Little sister is (redacted area around 23 characters long). I suppose I’m doxing her by mentioning it, but there is no such place as 2015 Nextel that I can see. Maybe thats an office number in a Nextel building or store on State Road 434, who knows. She may have been at work alone at the time? The call was placed at 7:04 PM on a friday. Maybe the store was closed and someone was being belligerent wanting to make a last minute transaction.
Again, the significance of this all escapes me but I’m interested enough to ask what anyone else thinks.
To make it simpeler. There are areas redacted in the right hand columns of the event log on page 4 and page 10. What is redacted are the names of 2 employees handeling these calls. Other employee names on those same event logs are not redacted, and no names are redacted on any of the other event logs.
I am just interested why they wanted these names redacted.
Some of what’s here:
http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php?topic=2187.0
as well as what the links go to, may be of use.
unitron
(who hasn’t been called anything nasty in at least 10 or 15 minutes and is starting to feel ignored)
: – )
Hey unitron:
You’re “anything nasty”!
Hope that makes you feel loved.
wn
In case people didn’t realize it, unitron was the very first commenter on this blog, and he had been on BCCList way before I joined it last summer. AFAIK, he doesn’t post over at TCTH, yes he does blog on talkleft, and ironically has probably been called a troll there for being too Trayvon friendly. Anyway, please don’t let this blog degenerate, and if anyone really feels like calling someone names or dunk them in a virtual toilet, take it to the Lounge. I’d like to keep the floors in this place clean.
@wsi
I can judge for my self, thank you very much. I am not in the business of calling people trolls, but his behavior yesterday on FL, his comments on Diawataman’s blog and his contemptuous denigrating remarks about DD warrant a calling out. Or do you think this mocking of DD on TL is civilized?
Accepting bigotry is not civilized in my opinion.
@amsterdam, No I don’t accept bigotry. I don’t know. I haven’t followed every comment made by unitron, but I don’t equate his skepticism with bigotry. Frankly, I’ve seen far worse mocking of GZ’s family and associates at FL’s blog, stuff regarding wishful thinking that the defendant would be convicted and pay for his crime the form of getting sodomized in prison and the offering of money to have GZ donate so many pints of blood that, according to FL himself, would be “draining”. Many laughed right along with that, bloggers who I would otherwise think are normal decent people.
.
I don’t know why I even bother to get in the middle.Alright I’m going to step back, way way back from this, and go into lurk mode to clear my head.
I value your comments as I do those of others on this blog regarding the case. As Whonoze posted, keepin truckin’ folks.
@wsi
Don’t go into lurking mode. I understand you want to keep the place civil. I just think certain things need to be addressed. Why are we here? We are all disgusted by what happened to Trayvon. Nothing has opened my eyes about what the expression ” walking while black” means, than Trayvon’s murder. It also made me aware that I will never understand what it means to be judged about my character, my intelligence, my worth as a human being simply based on the color of my skin. The least I can do is call it out when I see it, even when it is uncomfortable and apparently disruptive to do so.
I think the real hardcore racist is a minority. The majority of people are just followers. If we can make it socially unacceptabel to act and speak about a class of people in a denigrating manner, that behaviour will become the new norm.
The notification email I got says:
so if you aimed wrong, don’t blame me.
” I just think certain things need to be addressed. Why are we here?”
I suspect it varies from person to person, but if there was an election to decide which of some of us get to decide that for all of us, I must have missed it, just as I apparently missed the imposition of the inverse-seniority system that says the later you got here the more “ownership” to which you can pretend.
Of course since this isn’t a democracy but a dictatorship, with the dictator being whonoze, who has every right to be.
I’ll either abide by whatever rules he issues or I’ll go elsewhere if I feel I can’t, but until and unless he himself states that he has delegated any “house rules”-making authority to any one else, I’m not about to be dictated to by the johnnies-come-lately.
Oh, and by the way, some of us were well aware long, as in decades, before this case of the scourge of “(fill in the blank) while Black”.
unitron
No, I didn’t aim wrong. I was well aware that you would get the notification. I am not intimidated by your “seniority”. If I see bigotry I call it out. I don’t care where you hang out, i don’t need to interact with you. But If I see you making these sexist, racist remarks about DD again, I will not let you get away with it.
If Whonoze has a problem with that, I’ll move on. I wouldn’t know what the hell I am here for.
@ amsterdam
@ unitron
Folks,nobody gets to dictate to anyone here. However, I ask people here to respect each other, and to refrain from making conclusions about other commenters based on a post or two.
(You could say I expect that, FWIW.)
Remember, text based web-forums tend to descend into flame wars because people make assumptions about somebody’s intent, take it personally, fire back in anger, which begets response in kind and so on. The problem is that you can’t hear the tone of a person’s voice in reading their text. Emoticons are too vague to help much. For some reason, lacking the cues of vocal tone, we seem to tend to assume the worst, when something much lighter may have been intended.
It seems to me that unitron rarely writes what he actually thinks about things. He plays the skeptic, poking small jabs and jibes at weaknesses he sees in people’s statements. I do not find this condescending. It’s good to have somebody checking. However unitron’s indirect and sometimes sarcastic method is especially ripe for misinterpretation, so if he catches a certain amount of shit that may not be warranted on merit, a lot of it’s an understandable byproduct of his mode of discourse. If you keep tossing yourself out as bait, you’re probably going to get bitten sooner or later.
amsterdam, if you have an issue with something anyone has written I do not expect you to remain silent about things that upset you. I do ask you to address the COMMENT, and to avoid ad hominem attacks on the person who made it. I also ask you to frame your reading as YOUR READING, not as some defintive fact about a person you only know through these little text boxes.
Perhaps I’m slow, but i don’t see what’s racist about Evil Chinchilla’s puppy and kitten joke. Now, if your complaint is that by sharing a joke with a Zimmietard, unitron is “palling around with racists,” affirming and abetting their venal attitudes in the process, I must humbly disagree.
At the risk of belaboring the obvious, but apparently all too easily forgotten: people are complicated. They are not one-dimensional. I would agree that an element of racism underlies the belief in GZ’s innocense, but I would disagree that this defines the totality of anyone who holds that belief. If you’re going to hang out at a web forum — you know, for actual discussion of some sort — there’s a logic to occasionally engaging their humanity apart from whatever issue is in contention. It’s just civil, and lubricates the discussion in both directions — people will respect your contributions more if you treat them like human beings now and then: make a joke or laugh at one, for example.
… i could ramble on about this for awhile, but I’m too tired. I hope y’all get thje drift. Again, I’m not setting down any kind of rules for these threads, just offering my own thoughts on what I see as an counter-productive tiff.
Thank you.
and thank you for your hospitality here.
unitron
There are quite a few there with NEXTEL something or other, listed as “Ani/Ali information” . I don’t know what Ani/Ali stands for but it seems fairly plain that is a cell phone tower; Each such entry has a different number in front of it, too, which would be the tower number.
Those 2 event logs are different than all the others. Let’s use little sister as an example. I don’t know exactly what EVM and EVA stands for. I just look for patterns. EVA is allways created when a new event is opened. It shows the employee information of the person answering the phone. EVM also has employee information and name attached to it.
If you look at page 9 at the top of the page, you can see that the person who answered the phone is rbrodeur on terminal TM37. If you look at the bottom of the page you see that the first 2 entries are an EVA and EVM for employee number 105003 on terminal 37. Next to those entries, in the remark section you see the name of rbrodeur.
At the top of the page next to dispatched by you can see which person was responsible for dispatching the officer. Here dispatcher bperry on terminal TM10 did the dispatching.
You will find a DIS entry on the log sheet. That is when bperry dispatched an officer to the scene. The DIS entry shows the dispatch was done from terminal TM10 by employee 105052. If you scroll up the page, you can see what other actions were taken by employee 105052 on TM10. We know that 105052 is bperry on TM10. There is an EVM entry made by that same employee. EVM also shows the name of the employee and as we expect it shows bperry.
The 2 event logs I pointed out, are the only ones that have the names redacted. It looks as if they changed the names in the header and redacted the names on the log sheets.
It doesn’t make sense to redact the names on the detail entries, if you don’t redact them in the header.
What I am saying is that they tried to hide 2 people that have had an interaction with GZ. I have no clue why that is, just found it interesting.
I’m tending to think that maybe some of the names are more recognizable to the censor as names of people than others are. I think it was a pretty sloppy job of redacting and erred on the side of being heavy handed but was not complete in redacting all names.
I doubt the person who redacted these things understood the code acronyms either. They may have been trying to censor the names of people who were mentioned BY cops and whose identity ended up in the chatter.
I can’t imagine anyone except “Sean” the 311 call taker who might be called into court at the trial.
Willis
It is not sloppy. It is very deliberate. It is only 2 names of people taking a call or dispatching an officer in 8 years. And the redactions are on the earlier calls. If they wanted to redact, they could’ve redacted the names in the headers, but that would’ve been very obvious. What they did is change the names in the headers and redacted them in the detail lines. The thinking must have been that people wouldn’t realize that names of employees were redacted by doing it that way. MDYCUS? Give me a break.
These logs were released by the SPD when the pressure started to build. I am telling you that the SPD is hiding the identity of 2 people for what ever the reason may be.
Two people who took 2 calls years ago?????
No conspiracy theory is complete without a REASON imagined to explain things…. “whatever it may be” is not good enough. You get an F for this class and have to take it again.
I agree it is strange, in the sense of being a discrepancy, but that’s not enough to call it deliberate without a working theory of why?
More interesting would be to find out where Z was in the whole year he didn’t make any calls.
I don’t have a working ct. I just noted that it is strange. Maybe these people have become undercover agents. There may be a legitimate reason to redact those names, but in that case just redact it.
There are no calls for 2008. When they start again in 2009 the frequency is higher than before the break.
I say deliberate because it looks as if the names in the headers have been altered. It is possible that these 2 names were entered into the system with all caps, but if that is the case and the names in the headers were not changed, the redactions in the details are useless, since the names are at the top of the page.
I can think of only one reason to change the names in the headers instead of redacting them. It would be immediately apparant to a lay person that the SPD is trying to hide the identity of employees. That is why I am saying it was deliberate.
Zimmerman was working for CarMax in 2008. That same year the co-worker who made the statement GZ bullied him, filed a complaint against GZ. That same year GZ was sued for not paying his credit card bills. At the end of 2008 he was no longer employed by CarMax. GZ also applied for a four month law enforcement program given by the Sherrif’s office.
Right, so everyone was after him, so he had no time to be after other people. Hey maybe he didn’t even have a working cell phone for a while?
I don’t know. I don’t have a working ct for you.
@WSI
It appears the “dunking” alludes to what was Xena’s and my playful exchange about Unitron yesterday. I am fairly new here and don’t know the ropes, but I can assure you it was all in fun with no offence intended to anyone, less still Unitron, and I certainly wouldn’t want to do anything that could degenerate this oasis into the din arising at times elsewhere.
Sorry, I seem to have messed up with the quote which has published even the link! Too late I realise now I should have eliminated most of the code or just kept to the more/less signs and blockquote.
My comments about Untrion on FL were not playing. If I don’t like someone, I’m not going to lead them on. That doesn’t mean I hate Unitron — only means that I’m more likely than not to ignore him.
And the two accidental links I didn’t mean to post have placed the comment in moderation!
Oh yeah — the dunking comments were in fun. The comments I made on FL were serious.
Hey, just learnt something new ! I didn’t know you can read a comment even though it’s being held in moderation! What moderation then?
Was just typing to apologise for getting you wrong about the dunking exchange and this, your second reply, came in. Whew…! Had me worried I had lost the faculty to distinguish between having a dig from murderous thoughts! 😉
LOL@gbrbsb. No murderous thoughts from me. 🙂 Zimmerman’s murderous thoughts is why I’m here.
Comforting to know… both ways!
@whonoze
I don’t know what to say. I saw red. It tears my heart out when I think about what is happening to this girl. First the experience she went through, the loss of her friend. The way she told BdlR that she feels guilt real guilt. I can imagine the what ifs going through her head, maybe wondering if she hadn’t called back that last time, Trayvon would have gone home just a couple of minutes sooner.
Then having to face Trayvon’s mother. Having to tell the story. Trying to put it on paper.
I found the ” tragic story” very touching and very real. I know the first time I was confronted with the death of someone close to me, that everything you do and say seems profane, but the lack of experience with something as uncomprehensible as the death of a person close to me, made me reach out to words and phrases I’ve heard in movies and read in books because I felt the need to honor the occasion.
I can feel her discomfort early on in her interview with BdlR, in a situation that she is not familiar with, talking with a man who must have felt so alien to her. I learned a lot about DD and BdlR as I could hear her starting to trust him and him beginning to feel empathy for her and a sense of wanting to protect her.
But then that intimate coversation is everywhere and she is ridiculed about the way she speaks, she is accused of being fake, of being a ho who urges her gangster boyfriend to go back and kill the white dude, of being a liar, a slut, a drug addict, lazy, stupid.
Then the threats to her safety, to uncover and expose her identity, the snooping in her personal life.
Now the attempts to get her on video.
This is just an anthology of the things that were said about her on these sites where Unitron rubs virtual elbows.
That joke may seem innocent to you, I hear the contempt of white priveledge devoid of any shame or compassion towards this girl. She is just an inconvenient object that may interfere with GZ’s right to profile, stalk and kill a black teenager who had the audacity to walk outside at 7pm on a sunday evening.
I can understand that I may seem stand offish. That I may not communicate as light hearted as some of you. I am sorry if people feel that way. This case makes me very emotional. I have a very difficult time making sense of this circus like spectacle that involves the unimaginable hurt felt by these people, who feel so real to me. The way I am dealing with these emotions is by detaching and holding on to facts.
I don’t know what I will do next. I don’t want to get into nasty fights, that don’t change anything. I also can’t bear the idea of even one AA teenager accidently reading jokes or other “subtle” remarks, confirming the stereotype, on a supposedly Trayvon friendly site and everybody seems oke with that.
Everytime I hear those terrified screams for help on that 911 call, I have my what ifs going through my mind. What if everybody that heard the screams would’ve turned on their porch lights and stepped outside.
When I see these kind of remarks about DD, I feel I have turn on the light and step outside.
I will take a break and think about it. You all carry on.
@ amsterdam
IMHO you express yourself very well in the post above, and in a manner I think is quite productive. I understand ‘where you’re coming from’ and share many of your feelings about the attacks on DeeDee. You SHOULDN’T be OK with a comment you feel confirms a stereotype, but you can call out the comment without getting medieval on the person who posted it. You HAVE turned on the light with your comment, and managed not to burn anyone here with the hot bulb.
I’m sure you’re familiar with the cliche “keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.” I too rubbed virtual elbows with the Fogenites on TalkLeft before Die Fuhreress banned me. I had my reasons for trying to inject a little sense into the discussion over there, like showing anyone who did stumble onto that forum that the POV over there is hardly universal. unitron is the only voice of dissent who’s been able to survive there. That may be testimony to the lack of vigor and directness in his approach, but IMHO it serves the pubic discourse to have some ‘hold on a minute’ interventions in that stream, however oblique they may be.
unitron’s internet ‘voice’ is dispassionate. For all I know, he may have emotions he keeps to himself, or he may actually be dispassionate. But I think he wants the truth. I think he believes the truth serves all of us, serves justice, and serves the memory of Trayvon Martin. I don’t see this site as ‘Trayvon-friendly’ I see it as truth-seeking friendly, which makes it pretty much an anti-GZ site (and hopefully anti-racist as well, if indirectly so). If we are all united on wanting the truth, lets focus on that. If you need to vent, by all means do, but please don’t single out a fellow truth-seeker for the path of the steam.
amsterdam, i hope you know you are an essential and valued part of this little community, and your work on the case is nothing less than heroic. Do stick around.
But can we just try to have a little more peace in the valley? As a favor to me if nothing else, since these conflicts bum me out, and I’ve got all i can handle IRL right now? Can y’all help a fella out?
** begin ironic voice **
Damn Loree for getting a job and having a real life to distract her from blogging. She knows how to keep the peace, and i doubt the flame wars would keep building if she were here to intervene. So i blame her.
** end irony **
Thanks Whonoze,
I was thinking about loree too. People like her are the glue that can keep a community together.
I really don’t like myself for blowing up that way and I very much appreciate your hospitality. I tend to bottle up emotions and then explode. I envie and admire the people who are able to express their feelings without creating a crisis. I do care about the people on this site and enjoy reading the banter.
I will try my best to not create another scene like this. I’ll bite my tongue just for you.
Let’s make it work on the home stretch to truth and justice.
You can see your own posts when they’re in moderation, but no one else can.
That’s what I thought, but I could swear Xena’s reply, quote No 247, to mine (quote No 245), came in when my quote still read “in moderation”. I must have been dreaming!
I meant to thank you long ago for your very tranquil blog here! Thank you.
“I meant to thank you long ago for your very tranquil blog here! Thank you.”
Yeah, there’s nothing like theats of torture and death and a medieval witch trial to help a guy really mellow out.
If only dismemberment had been included.
unitron
Unitron, you got me worried… no usual wink? You didn’t really take me seriously, did you? It was a play to Xenas dunking, an affectionate joke!
Yeah, that Xena’s got a real killer sense of humor. See it in the lounge all the time.
unitron
I have a dry sense of humor — just like you, Unitron.
@gbrbsb. Not to worry. I can dismember Unitron’s hair from his head while dunking it under water.
@Xena. It appears Unitron took our exchange the wrong way so not sure what to reply. I thought he was joking about the dismemberment etc. and was about to tell him to be careful as I used my dad’s 1st edition of “Fox’s book of Martyrs” as a kid to learn to draw when I noticed his missing “wink”. Presumably you’ve read the follow ups by now so all this is going to cross in cyberspace I hope without further misunderstanding or offence.
@gbrbsb. No hard feelings here. I don’t respond to every comment about Unitron because frankly, that is not why we’re here and I won’t make him my focus.
“No hard feelings here.”
Oh, thank heavens.
I was so concerned that you might have suffered distress at my having taken exception with being threatened with physical harm.
I can sleep peacefully now with that off of my conscience.
unitron
Unitron if you took the exchange seriously I must sincerely apologise as clearly I have offended you, but it is a misunderstanding because believe me on my part the comments were not meant as anything more than a playful dig of the way you have of late of getting the lounge up in arms, and for which no “troll” accusations will ever come from my side because I more often than not see your points, and in my case at least I believe they often help to keep us on our toes without so much complacency so I have no bone with you whatsoever so it saddens me that you appear to have one with me.
Whatever you have with Xena, (I have had my own run-ins with her as well as with others at the lounge), I believe in this case she was having a playful dig too. I don’t know if you read our full exchange but her final reply to me at comment #249:
I personally have no reason to disbelieve her but you will have to decide what you can believe from your side, but I am not Xena so I hope you can judge me for myself.
@Unitron
This is my last word as I feel I am not making the situation better but worse. It just occurred to me that these wise words of our host just two days ago at quote 233 are relevant to what happened here:
I have had run-ins with others and others have had them with me with no lasting animosity from either side as far as I know, but in this case something much lighter WAS intended so after having apologised for hurting your feelings unintentionally, I feel the ball must be now in your court as to whether we can move on too.
Does anyone happen to know how and where the good folk (and the rest of them for that matter) at Lakes Edge Apartments get their mail?
unitron
I have tried to suss out what construction could be the mailboxes with google and bing maps and searched the web for any mention of it to no avail, so bar phoning the leasing office ((407) 321-1330) who may not tell you anyway, don’t see any other way to find out.
I don’t KNOW, but most apartment buildings have mailboxes in the entryways or foyers of each individual building.
Almost no one in modern construction housing of any sort gets mail at their door anymore. At best the mailboxes are moved to the curb where the mailmen or mail women can access them from a moving vehicle. The economic pressure on the USPS is quite severe at present.
But here’s a word, actually two, about Trayvon’s route to the mail kiosk in the RATL: who cares? The action began when GZ first saw TM and seemingly profiled him. But PROOF of this action isn’t going to be established in a court of law until the NEN call recording begins, unless there are some text messages we don’t know about (and GZ hasn’t told his lawyer about, possibly).
Let’s hear a hypothetical right quick. George Zimmerman, thru “god’s will” attended the birth of Trayvon Williams and watched him every day of his life until the evening he killed him. He followed him to the park and to every pubic place that Trayvon ever went. SO WHAT? It’s not until he reported him as a suspicious person and then chased him with his car that GZ broke the law.
Here’s another hypothetical. Me, “willisnewton” called George to tell him the a black teen was walking thru the adjacent apartments and the George better get his car and go observe him. Yes, folks, I did it. What laws have been broken? None that I know of until GZ called the cops to report the activity, which was not suspicious, as such and then began PROVABLY stalking the teen after the youth left the mail kiosk at RATL and walked past GZ’s car.
George has all the rights of any citizen to go where he pleases. Unless and until he breaks the law, he’s not criminally liable for his behavior.
I am not a lawyer, but this is my understanding of the relevance of all this.
I’m also tired of speculation about who ran where after Trayvon ran off the roadway and into the cut thru area. It doesn’t matter. What matters is that someone closed a gap eventually and the two ended up in a fight of some kind where the unarmed person was shot by the person who leapt from his truck with a loaded gun and ran after the teen, having just previously CHASED the teen with his vehicle. That person was committing a crime already, and cannot claim self defense.
MOM has asked for an appeals court to review the order denying his request to depose Crump.
At the heart of the petition is this:
“Mr. Crump is the only person who truly knows the circumstances surrounding how Witness 8 came to be involved in this case, what she has told him on and off the recorded
portions of the interview Mr. Crump had with her, and what other involvement Mr.
Crump has had with this material witness.”
Of course that isn’t strictly true – Witness 8 knows this stuff, too and the defense is, or was, free to depose her.
As for the “Dee Dee Lied” allegations, the defense is going to need proof that it was her that claimed to be 16 years old, and not Crump himself, possibly even mistakenly.
Then there is the “did you go to the hospital OR SOMETHING” business on the interview with BDLR.
I think the defense is going to encounter an uphill battle here if they want to prove her a liar in open court. They can make the claim in public and to the press all they want, but whatever she said or didn’t say to Crump is quite unlikely to be presented by the prosecution as evidence at trial anyway.
Civil Case settled Wrongful death against HOAhttp://m.globalgrind.com/news/trayvon-martins-parents-tracy-martin-sybrina-fulton-settle-wrongful-death-claim-details
Sorry..here is clickable link
http://touch.orlandosentinel.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-75229786/
Good for them. The HOA clearly knows it could lose, and lose big if this case went to trial and so it’s likely that their insurance company pushed for the settlement. I’m guessing by what is said in the article that the amount is greater than one million dollars, which is the limit on the policy but we won’t know because the agreement to settle in cases like this always includes a provision not to disclose the amount, and in this case who paid.
Of course the settlement does NOT prohibit another wrongful death suit agains the killer George Zimmerman, which I assume will also be forthcoming. He may not have any assets by the time his trial is over, but if he had seven dollars I hope he has to pay it over, and then some.
Money cannot replace a child but sometimes its the only thing that negligent corporations understand. The HOA allowed GZ to “patrol” with a loaded handgun for months on end and they were just “asking for trouble” IMO.
Exactly, if it cost money, they will pay attention. Video cameras that weren’t working, lights directly at working cameras obscuring the view. No lights on the dog walk. Shouldn’t that be the first job of the SPD if they are giving advise about safety? Let the insurance companies pay. That will make them put the pressure on these HOA’s to keep vigilantes at home and proper security measures in place.
Yep, if they want NW then the leader is going to be required to file monthly reports, keep membership records of who’s on the trees etc., patrols if any and if any members have firearms. They will also have to accept complaints from the community and set aside time to hold hearings on these complaints if need be {that is if the complaint isn’t something the HOA can’t handle with a unilateral decision). And they will have to seek to have complaints answered once they’re filed. No more simply hustling the complainant out of the meeting.
If Attorney Crump can prove that a complainant was hustled out of a meeting, instead of having his or her complaint heard/recorded/filed/answered, then the HOA officers are guilty of personal failure to perform their duty as officers of the HOA. Not only should they be sued by Attorney Crump, but they should be sued by the homeowners as well.
@willisnewton
I understand the bit about negligent corporations learning lessons only via payments but in the UK the payments are fines with the monies going to compensate victims of crime are not so lucky as to be killed by an insured. In fact over here compensation for the wrongful death of a child is tiny (£2,000 each year lost up to 18) as it is to compensate the bereavement not the loss of earnings etc. that obviously has must be factored in for a dead spouse, parent, etc. Even the multi million pound awards given to children left disabled are generally set in trust so as they cover the needs for the victims life, and, iirc, on death return to the public fund ready to serve another victim when awarded.
The thinking behind it is in line with what you say, i.e. no amount can “compensate” a parent for the loss of a child, but for a parent to suddenly become super rich as a consequence of the death of a child in violent circumstances is not seen to be the answer. A friend of mine lost a child in horrible circumstances and despite needing the money she donated every penny in her daughter’s name to building a school in an African village. For her the very thought of getting any pleasure from it filled her with sadness and horror. Her compensation is now visiting the village each year to see how the children their progress. The Martins look like the kind who will use any monies awarded wisely and kindly, perhaps to repay some of the generous help from co workers Sybrina received and to create a foundation to help other victims of SYG. I do hope I am right and not just the “incurable romantic” the bloggers at DWman have called me!
The trouble is, the HOA could not faithfully exercise it’s executive functions, because the individuals who populated it’s official posts, refused to discharge their duties. The faithful discharge of the duties of the HOA’s executive function, would have protected the HOA from much of the liability it suffered thereby.
Obviously the HOA could not do anything itself, it had to rely upon the people who served as it’s operators. Looking at what Caracker did before he ran away from the HOA, and then looking at what a HOA official said and then retracted as a witness to the horrid event, we come to understand that, the HOA was populated with people who did not want to interfere with a process that they personally had approved of secretly.
Thus they personally prevented the HOA from performing it’s executive functions, of accepting and entertaining complaints against the NW and looking into them or demanding an explanation or holding a hearing where the parties could have their say. So they too should be facing suit.
LLMPapa is taking the speculative idea that TM was spotted by GZ in Colonial Village and he’s running with it in his latest video. He uses a twitter message from Robert Z jr, to back up the idea, one where RZjr says that GZ didn’t call the police right away, and that something else besides walking home made him suspicious. It’s a loaded message, I’ll agree but I’m worried about the water getting muddied here. The proof of criminal activity starts with the NEN call and the activity of GZ profiling the teen and then following him with his car as a jury will hear and be shown happened. Events that occurred earlier in the evening may not be as easy to prove, and I’m wondering if someone isn’t maybe trying to sow confusion intentionally here somehow. Not LLMpapa, of course but maybe RZjr?
I don’t know the date of the tweet by RZjr however and mostly I’m just confused at the moment. Does anyone else have a strong opinion on all this?
I also sometimes wonder if RZjr isn’t an agent provocateur, in cahoots with MOM to sow confusion in the ranks of the supporters of TM’s family, and to bait the donors with “dog whistles” and outright racist statements.
I like LLMpapa’s videos just fine, but they seem to have a greater impact on the conventional wisdom of case followers than perhaps they should when he is simply presenting yet another speculative theory that lacks public proof just yet. If someone here had pointed out that tweet, and juxtaposed it with the written letter by W8/Dee Dee, would it have as much weight? I don’t know. I tend to doubt it. It’s A theory, but we all know that many things are possible – and that what GZ claims happened is not possible. But lets face it, after TM left the 7Eleven store, we don’t really know what happened exactly. He seems to have used the short cut, according to Dee Dee but that’s always been a strong possibility anyways.
Maybe the GPS data will back up the idea that GZ was “patrolling” his sister’s complex that night, but even then it’s hardly proof that he spotted TM at the time and then followed him to the RATL. I’m not sure how to make that stick in a court of law as proof of stalking or profiling. For this theory to work in the prosecution’s favor, they are going to need proof of a “tip off” I’d say.
My guess is that BDLR knew of the theory that GZ had somehow had Trayvon followed from the store all the way home. But, since it wasn’t necessary, because he would not use any such theory without hard evidence, he did not release the handwritten statement. NOW, however, something has changed. Perhaps he took a cue from what Tchoupi and Whonoze were able to learn by carefully scrutinizing the cctv’s at RATL, and so he decided to give the other collected cctv discs a thorough going over. If so, they may now have something in their work product, that they do not have to disclose, but that is clear evidence of something much more nefarious, starting even earlier than we believed.
Like, for instance, if those many cameras caught the 3 stooges following Trayvon out and back. That would be devastating. You could even make a M1 case, because of the way these guys hid their faces at the 711. So, who knows? But, because a trial holds the possibility that there may be even more charges, made in a dramatic fashion as someone is uncovered during the course of the trial, woo woo, no plea deal at all for Fogen.
Okay, against my own better judgement I’m going to jump into the colonial village speculation waters and paddle around a little bit. I’ve always thought it was possible that TM used a shortcut to enter the RATL, but even more possible is the idea that GZ conflated the story about what happened months before near Frank Taaffe’s unit out of convenience in the forming of his false narrative, using details from that incident to bolster the supposed veracity of his false narrative, having NOT spotted the teen there at all, but only later when the youth was at the mail kiosk on TTL.
The main problem with using Taaffe’s side of the building as the shortcut is that it isn’t a short cut unless the person using it knows how to thread their way best through the Colonial Village, and if they are that savvy, why not go home the southern route thru the RATL once you have started in that way?
Then there is the idea of the mail kiosk at Colonial Village somehow being a spot where TM may have rested to get out of the rain. Again, it’s NOT the shortest route to stop there. It’s not even close to the shortest route, in fact. If TM was at the mail kiosk in CV, what was his route to get there?
So many questions, so much speculation and not a whole lot of easy logic can explain these problems.
I do think it is probable that TM entered the RATL using a shortcut. I think if I were walking to 7ELeven I’d follow the utility lines that skirt the north edge of CV. At the corner of Rinehart and Town Center, I’d leave to roadway and walk straight along w the wires to the intersection of Oregon and Hillwood. But at that point, why go into the CV complex at all? I’d stay on Oregon, wouldn’t you?
But one thing bothers me – and that is the idea that ‘s proxy spokespersons mentioned the teen going “between the buildings.” Is this a cryptic reference to TM in Colonial Village somehow? I’d have to revisit those exact quotes to truly examine that idea. Because in the composite (false) narrative that GZ told SPD there isn’t any “between the buildings” until TM heads to the dog walk for the second (lol) time after doubling back, and “skipping away” (hannity interview).
We just don’t have information other than DD’s statement. Like you always say “Many things are possible, what GZ claims is not possible”.
Unless that was not GZ’s car on TTL at the time of the nen call, Trayvon was at the Mail shade and GZ didn’t follow him there.
If there are gps records we’ll find out during the trial, if not we’ll probably never know.
One irking thing about all this Colonial Village BS is that in her BdlR interview, DeeDee is quite clear that Trayvon was “under the mail thing… inside the gated community,” i.e. RATL. So all of this speculation about some other mail area just feeds the “DeeDee changes her story after coaching by the Scheme Team” narrative spun out by the CTH and TalkLeft. IMHO, the Loungers will support ANY hypothesis that makes GZ seem more demonic: ‘Yes, he was stalking Trayvon all the way back from the 7-11!” Never mind that this contradicts the sworn statement by your ‘star’ witness, and all the physical evidence. Grrrghhh.
The various conspiracy theories over in the lounge really are starting to get just short of involving UN black helicopters.
I was thinking maybe different “mail thing” because she seems to get him started at it so early in the 18 minute call that having him burn off the time there seems to put him coming through one of the shortcuts somewhere in the vague vicinity of when Zimmerman supposedly first saw him, and I don’t see Zimmerman as having the smarts to have this whole story prepared in advance to serve as a script for the call while whatever’s really happening happens instead.
In other words, I’m still expecting what really happened (whatever that was) to at least in general terms match up with what we hear on the NEN call.
If the NEN call was scripted, how come he goes off script so badly in the post shooting interviews? How does he know someone in a car didn’t drop Martin off at the front gate to dash to the mailboxes to wait out the rain? Someone who would pop up in a day or so and say “Hell no that boy didn’t come through by Taaffe’s house, I gave him a ride!”
Even leaving out the conspiracy theories and trying to apply Occam’s Razor, this case is confusing enough.
Meanwhile back at the lounge, they’re convinced Martin was too terrified to move as Zimmerman pinned him to the ground with only his rear end and knees as he used one hand to grab the sweatshirts and the other hand to fire the gun, and a boy who just a couple of years earlier was regarded by his opponents on the football field as a tough come at you hard competitor just lies there frozen.
And of course the guy who called in a couple of plate numbers is a big part of the police contingent that were in on the conspiracy ahead of time.
Which all wouldn’t be so bad if the answer to “what exactly was the evidence for that?” wasn’t [insert emotional rant here].
unitron
Isn’t that GZ’s story?
By opponents you mean those other tough come at you hard 13 year olds?
“By opponents you mean those other tough come at you hard 13 year olds?”
I guantee you that some of the kids he went up against were at least as much bigger than he was then, ratio-wise, as Zimmerman was that night compared to his size at 17.
Just because he wasn’t out mugging tourists in Miami each day doesn’t mean he was a total wimp.
unitron
And I do seem to remember Zimmerman’s version of the story, accurate or not, including Martin doing more with his hands than just grabbing a shirt and holding a gun, so, no, that was not GZ’s story.
unitron
Hahaha… Real Bruce Willis types, eh?
And what was GZ doing with his hands, while Trayvon pinned him to the ground with his 50lbs lighter ass and knees?
You guantee[sic] that? What is your certainty based on? You seem kind of loose with the facts here.
“You guantee[sic] that? What is your certainty based on? You seem kind of loose with the facts here.”
Because I’ve seen kids football teams around that age range over a wide range of years this past half century or so, and there’s considerable variation in height and weight.
I don’t know how tall Trayvon was at that age, but from the pictures I know he wasn’t the heaviest kid in the league unless it was a very, very abnormal group of teams specially selected to be so. (which of course doesn’t happen)
He went up against kids as much bigger than him, proportionately, as Zimmerman was that night.
He had some experience in taking a licking and keeping on ticking.
I’m not sure I can say the same for Zimmerman.
unitron
@ amsterdam
I believe what unitron is referring to is the culture of American football, specifically it’s physicality and machismo. Wimps do not go out for football. Especially in the South. Football players are not thugs, nor do they learn fighting skills. But they learn a ‘fighting’ attitude. The idea is to run in to someone, knock them beack, or knock them down, hitting them with your padded shoulder. And you’re taught not to give up: “when the going gets tough the tough get going” etc. ad infinitum.
Another cliche: It’s not the size of the dog in the fight, but the sie of the fight in the dog. High school kids aren’t that heavy, and as a receiver, Trayvon would rarely if ever have gone hard at any 200 lb-ers. I don’t know when exactly he quit football. I’m pretty sure he wasn’t on the team the year of his death, but I believe he played past 13, maybe through sophomore year? But I can guarantee you that in freshman or sophomore ball in Florida, he would have been taking on defensive backs, who though they may have been even lighter than Trayvon, could open a can of whoop-ass on GZ and leave him looking like a red-headed step-child… and I’m not talking about fisticuffs necessarily, just, you know, “wrestling”.
Of course, I got crucified in the Lounge when I noted that football players are trained NOT to be passive in physical encounters. As Zimmerman must be the demonic slayer in the liturgy there, so must Trayvon be ithe nnocent lamb going gently to the slaughter. As if any resistance on Trayvon’s part somehow makes him partly culpable, which is just utterly ridiculous.
Yeah, I wasn’t ready for the sudden onslaught of belief in Trayvon the pussified wimp that seemed to spring up out of nowhere when I tried to get a straight answer as to exactly what forensic evidence proves Zimmerman had Martin pinned to the ground when he shot him, but then Zimmerman’s “combat experience” took me by surprise the other day as well.
unitron
Briefly coming out of lurk mode to say this. People who believe they are for Justice for Trayvon people, while well-intentioned, are not doing his family or his memory a favor by characterizing him as a helpless child. Yes, he was unarmed, innocent of any crimes that may have been suspected of him and did not deserve to be followed, creeped out and shot. So no matter what he was, a clumsy teenager or a football hulk, it was going to be a losing battle against a gun and a paranoid watch guy. Aside from what the implications of a bloody nose and head boo boos would be in court, I’m betting that deep down, his friends and family, all smiled at least internally to think that their son went down fighting, and that it was THEIR son and friend that was standing his ground.
(crawling back into my cave again now…..)
IIRC and IMBW, wasn’t DD’s first word about Trayvon taking shelter “plaza”, then “shade thing” as well as “another apartment” which may have been before or after just can’t remember. I’ll have to read the transcripts and listen to the tapes again but I thought this was the order and that “mail shed” then “mail boxes” came after.
Yes, but note that “apartment” is singular and comes in a context where ‘another’ could well have been used to distinguish the ‘shade thing’ from Brandi Green’s townhome, as to where Trayvon went.
@whonoze
I must go back to tapes and transcripts because to be honest I can’t recall in what context DD first used “another apartment” when recounting her tale. It may be that before it was interpreted as one thing but since DD’s letter “another apartment” is being interpreted as going to “another complex”, i.e. travelling through it, because that is what her “letter” writes but as you note it could refer to something else.
Hmmm… It just occurred to me that GZ didn’t have to be coming from home when the cctv caught him coming north on RVC west. He could very well have been out on the road following TM, making him antsy enough to dodge through CV to avoid him. Then GZ could enter RATL via the east gate and come up north on RVC west the long way around.
Well we’ll see.
Are you saying, Lonnie that GZ was maybe following TM on Rineholt all the way before the colonial village entrance? And then when he lost him he eventually went to the east entrance of RATL? That seems preposterous to me…
Many things are possible; what GZ claims happened is not possible.
To drive slow following TM on Rineholt from the 7Eleven he’d be risking a rear end collision. To pass the north entrance purposefully seems nonsensical as well.
Also of course we don’t know what cars are seen on RVC, they are just headlights IMO. There is that ONE frame that seems to show a vehicle but it’s certainly not proof positive of much.
What we do know, and amsterdam mentions it above, is that a car trolls the mail kiosk at the RATL right before the nen call starts, and then likely returns to a spot the GZ personally marked on a map (before changing his story to something demonstrably false quickly and suspiciously). And that if that car is NOT GZ’s car, then he was never anywhere near the clubhouse at all, and his entire NEN call is a bizarre clairvoyant fantasy that was a prelude to the oddest coincidence in the universe.
In other words, we know what happened already. GZ trolled the mail kiosk and called NEN, doubled back and began stalking the teen with his car and then on foot.
Whatever happened before then is a mystery and is likely to remain so. Maybe the GPS will tell us something but I’m not counting on it. I think it may be more likely that GZ’s texts and phone calls will be suggestive or proof of a tip off, but again it doesn’t matter. The guy is provably lying and is own false narrative is going to sink his credibility with the jury.
Well no… I’m not saying he did that, but I’m simply saying that there is a route he could have taken that would have had the same effects as the one we’ve seen.
You should not say, however, that it would not make any sense for him to pass up the front gate and go to south Oregon ave to enter using the back gate. If this was one of his options, he definitely would avoid the front gate, knowing the cameras would catch him passing the clubhouse. He’d want to use the back gate to avoid them so that; by coming down RVC west, he could pretend that he just left home for the store and spotted TM along the way.
That theory implies he expects Trayvon to go through to RATL, ie knows he belongs there or at least has seen him there before.
Otherwise he’d just follow him into CV.
oh we SO SO BADLY need GPS from GZ’s phone. But even just the truck would do.
What we need is a full and credible confession from the killer. That seems unlikely. I also don’t think he confided in his wife fully, and I’m not sure if he told Mark Osterman what really happened either. Mark O’Mara knows better than to ask him outright for the truth as well. Trayvon knew what was happening and he told Dee Dee as much as he could. It’s not certain that she is being 100% forthcoming or not, but she seems quite credible to me and I think she will be believed by a jury as well.
We know a truly great deal already, and are fortunate that we live in such an electronic age in some regards I suppose. Had NOTHING been recorded, GZ may have gotten away with murder.
Haha, yes, well, failing GPS a full confession would do, too.
Trouble is would we believe it? by now I’d have doubts if he just said the sky is blue.
Or maybe GZ first saw Trayvon going out of RATL?
Yes, you have no idea how badly. I’ve discovered a hint of an artifact that could work in GZ’s favor as far as the chase goes, but the reason it doesn’t work is, he never raised it. Instead him and his defense team is cowering behind useless motions and innuendo.
@willisnewton
I agree entirely with your statement:
but I would take it even further, as IMO, it is only worth taking a shortcut through CV if you also taken one through Lakes Edge. By crossing through both complexes you could save maybe a quarter of the total journey while by going via Oregon Av and CV, IMO you would not save anything as well as having the added disadvantage of a road trek with no awnings, buildings or even trees under which to shelter if it suddenly starts to pour.
re: a route thru Lakes Edge and CV to Taaffe’s “shortcut.”
I thought about that route months and months ago. It’s possible but quite complex and if scrutinized to that degree, probably would include a southern route thru the RATL as well.
Also there is topography (hillsides) that are difficult to interpolate between Lakes Edge and Colonial Village as well as some hedges and maybe drystack walls to navigate…
And again none of these routes seems to pass the CV mail kiosk anyway.
Many things are possible, including the idea that GZ saw TM leaving the RATL on his way to 7Eleven, but if he had wouldn’t he assume the suspicious (ie, black) person lived elsewhere and was on a path to return home?
Then finally we get to, how does one prove any of this in court? The best I could come up with would be the idea that GZ texted someone or received a text that would prove a tip off, or that GZ was tailing the teen thru CV, but that GZ in his brilliance deleted the texts and assumed he was in the clear after that, but that the information was retrieved eventually by the state’s investigation. And I think that sounds far fetched as well.
Even if there were GPS of a detailed path both persons took to the 7Eleven and back thru LE and CV, I’m not sure that PROVES much given the built-in non-acuracy of precisely positioning cell phones thru forensics after the fact.
But I’m willing to be surprised… and eagerly await the trial to find out as much as we can about all this.
Again the only thing in support of a LE to CV route theory that I can come up with is the proxy statements of GZ supporters who claim TM was “between the buildings” in a suspicious manner. According to GZ’s combined bullshit, he never actually saw TM between any buildings really until he had a fist in his face. So where did those statements come from? I tend to think they are conflated by GZ’s family members from the overall story, and that’s all, but we don’t know.
There is the POSSIBILITY again that these statements have a genesis in something GZ told family/ friends about inculpatory actions prior to the NEN call, but didn’t tell the SPD. Again, I don’t see this as the most likely occurrence, but one never knows.
@whonoze,
Where do I say Trayvon was whimp? Unitron ridicules the idea that GZ would’ve been able to control Trayvon, while at the same time pulling down the shirt with one hand and shooting with the other, conveniently forgetting that having a gun in one hand adds a bit of control rather than subtract.
I reminded Unitron that that is exactly what GZ claims Trayvon did to him. What was GZ doing with his hands? This 200lbs ex-bouncer, who had been arrested for slamming an officer into a wall, would’ve just been laying helpless on the ground? GZ had no defensive wounds on his hands and arms.
Assuming GZ was in control of the situation doesn’t turn Trayvon into a whimp. But the technique necessary to tackle another person is very different than the techniques used to subdue and restrain.
There are several positions that are consistent with the forensic evidence available. Trayvon sitting on top of GZ is not consistent with the forensics. Therefore GZ is lying.
“There are several positions that are consistent with the forensic evidence available. Trayvon sitting on top of GZ is not consistent with the forensics.”
If by forensics you mean the way Zimmerman’s clothes looked much later that night after rubbing against the patrol car seat combined with “Smith is lying about what he saw”…
unitron
I believe by “forensic evidence” amsterdam is referring to GZ’s known weight and strength, her own martial arts experience, and the nature of Zimmerman’s wound and the lack thereof on TM. No matter how wiry he might have been, Trayvon could not have sat on top of GZ and pummeled him unless GZ had gone limp as a dishrag and put up no resistance whatsoever. As amsterdam has explained in previous threads, the sitting-on-top just isn’t sustainable against leverage. GZ would have to claim that Trayvon’s ‘first punch’ dazed him so badly he was unable to resist, yet somehow he was staggering, swimming or shimmying the 40 feet from the T to John’s backyard. (MTAPBWZSINP).
unitron’s post above did not “ridicule the idea that GZ would’ve been able to control Trayvon.” It took issue with the idea that through the entire encounter TM was “too terrified to move” and “just lay there frozen.” There was a physical struggle. The two men were “wrestling.” IMHO at some point, either by use of his gun or by some bouncer/air-marshal pain inducing hold GZ gained control and TM began screaming in anguish. So there’s no contradiction between Trayvon actively trying to resist, and Zimmerman using his skills or weapon to overcome that resistance and take control. But bring this up on FLLB and you’ll be raked over the coals. amsterdam began an argument with unitron in response to unitron’s assertion that Trayvon, as an ex-football-player, ws an unlikely candidate for wimphood. Thus, if you have a problem with someone merely saying, ‘I doubt TM was a passive frozen baby’ you may not be saying TM was a wimp, but that’s hardly an unreasonable inference from the point at which you have taken umbrage.
“I believe by “forensic evidence” amsterdam is referring to GZ’s known weight and strength, her own martial arts experience, and the nature of Zimmerman’s wound and the lack thereof on TM.”
That requires a remarkably elastic definition of “forensic evidence”.
There are different kinds of evidence.
The above falls into a different category, although “Zimmerman’s wound and the lack of any outside the gunshot and a small abraision on Martin proves Zimmerman had physical dominance of Martin the entire time” falls into the category of “Huh?”.
unitron
I should’ve been clearer, with forensic evidence I meant the direction of the shot, the range of the shot and the misalignment of the holes in the shirt combined are inconsistent with Trayvon being on top when the shot was fired.
They both could’ve been standing, but I think w18 and w12 would’ve seen that.
They both could’ve been on their knees.
GZ could’ve been on top.
They both could’ve been on their sides.
I was trying to point out that GZ had a gun. You are way more likely not to fight if someone is pointing a gun at you, then if someone is throwing punches at you. If somebody is hitting you in your face, you use your hands and arms to protect your face. GZ has no defensive wounds on his arms and hands.
The witnesses said they weren’t fighting when the shot was fired, they didn’t hear people moving on the ground, they didn’t hear hitting, they didn’t hear grunting, sounds you would expect to hear if a fight was still occuring. If we assume that all things being equal neither party would’ve just played ragdoll, one of them must have had control over the other.
You can’t control someone by sitting on them and putting your hands on their face. You would control them with a hold grip, an armlock, a chokehold or a weapon. GZ didn’t claim Trayvon constrained him using any of these techniques, and we know Trayvon didn’t have a weapon. The shot couldn’t have been fired with Trayvon on top. GZ couldn’t have unholstered his gun from the position he said he was in. In short to quote Willisnewton ” Many things are possible, what GZ claims happened is not possible”.
The prosecution doesn’t have to show what position they were in when the shot was fired, they just have to show that what GZ claims is inconsistent with the evidence.
” You are way more likely not to fight if someone is pointing a gun at you…’
If I’m practically nose to nose with someone pointing a gun at me, I’m very unlikely to say “What are you following me for?” and if I think they’re about to pull the trigger I’m very likely to try to spoil their aim while I scream for help.
unitron
I was talking about means of control. In your original argument you were contending that GZ would have been able to control Trayvon just with his ass and knees, if his hands were occupied with things such as holding a gun. Holding a gun would most definitely be a way to control someone.
You weren’t arguing that the theory was impossible, because Trayvon wouldn’t have been screaming, now were you?
I wasn’t arguing that GZ was holding the gun when the verbal altercation began, was I?
I happen to agree with you, that it is unlikely Trayvon would’ve been screaming if he had known, there was a gun pointed at him.
In my opinion, based on my experience in martial arts, the screams are most consistent with a person being held in an armlock. The most likely position of the 2 people involved, would’ve had the person who was being restrained, on his stomach or on his knees with his back towards the person restraining him.
Just before the shot is fired there is a last help. This help sounds as if the person calling for help is moving away from w11. We know they didn’t move south at that point. This could indicate there was a change in position seconds before the shot. I would say the person was screaming at first with his face towards w11’s patio, but that the last help was done with the person facing south, away from w11’s patio.
I would argue, GZ had Trayvon on his knees or stomach in an arm lock, and that he turned him around seconds before he shot him.
Do I know this for a fact? No, but it is consistent with the forensic evidence we know about.
“In your original argument you were contending that GZ would have been able to control Trayvon just with his ass and knees, if his hands were occupied with things such as holding a gun.”
Well, no, actually others were making that claim and I was disagreeing with them.
But so many loungers lept in to obfusticate each other’s ignorance of what kind of evidence is and is not forensic evidence that it’s difficult to keep track of which particular bit of twaddle originated with which.
Were the knees of Trayvon’s pants much more soaked than the rest of them?
That would be forensic evidence pointing to Zimmerman forcing him into a kneeling position, and I’d think that the police would have noticed it early on.
unitron
I also don’t believe GZ would’ve been screaming, if he were in the position he claimed he was, or doing what he said he was doing. That is not how the brain works. His attention would’ve been focussed on getting out from under Trayvon, or on getting his gun out. If he was being hit or “suffocated” his first instinct would’ve been self-preservation through fight or self-defense. Not by solliciting help from outsiders.
Being held in an armlock however, prevents one from fighting, or fleeing because every movement would excaserbate the pain.
“In your original argument you were contending that GZ would have been able to control Trayvon just with his ass and knees, if his hands were occupied with things such as holding a gun.”
My mistake, I meant wouldn’t have been able to control Trayvon.
So you agree that your argued that you thought that GZ couldn’t have controlled Trayvon just with his ass and knees, if his hands were occupied with handeling a gun.
That was your argument, not that Trayvon wouldn’t have screamed if a gun was pointed at him.
.
Do you have any evidence that any of the police officers made an examination or remarked upon the relative dampness of Trayvon’s clothes?
Or is your argument that since they didn’t make a note of the fact that Tayvon’s knees were relatively more wet than other parts of his clothes, he couldn’t have been straddling GZ, because that would’ve meant his knees would’ve been on the ground?
The tragedy in this is that GZ immediately admitted to doing the shooting. Case closed. And I don’t mean coverup and all that. I mean they know who shot the victim and the shooter is not disputing it. So no NEED to look for a bit more water here, a bit less grass there.
Had they found a body and the shooter had run away, or several people standing around all pointed at each other and said “he dunnit” then they’d have had to look more closely, to see HOW THE SHOOTING HAPPENED.
By the time the “re-enactment” made it obvious that the “how precisely” was going to matter, it was too late to look for dampness.
I favour on their sides. You can do an armlock from that position, rolling the victim partly onto his front by doing it. Also gets you raised off the ground to be able to reach a gun in a hip holster.
But this makes him loosen the armlock a little, where Trayvon (or rather his adrenalin) decides the extra pain is better than getting shot, and tries to roll out of it. He would have to roll onto his back and further, to get enough purchase with his knees to stand up and run. GZ then grabs the shirts, in a tight twisted bunch, to pull him back again.
(In the lie detector thingy video, he VERY clearly demonstrates a grab, pulling towards himself, twisting to the his left which would tighten the fabric against his lower arm. Verbally he calls it wrist control, but the demonstrated position isn’t anywhere an attacker’s wrist could be).
Following through on that grab-and-pull would end up with Trayvon on his stomach, the bottom arm under, the formerly twisted top arm spread out. GZ might have to do a bit of a roll himself to get clear. And may have picked up a bit of grass like Smith said (which would have fallen off in the cruiser, the station bathroom etc). Then roll back onto his back for the frisking.
He wasn’t spreading the arms to restrain him. He was tucking the “loose” arm under him and had to say something in case someone saw that position (as people were out by then).
This is also how GZ does not need 3 hands — ..the left-hand movements (armlock, shirt-grab) are consecutive, not simultaneous, exchanging one control for another as Trayvon tries to get out of the first.
@Aussiekay,
I like the on their sides position. Austin saw a man from the back, on his side. I’ve always been sure that the 2nd person was blocked from Austin’s view by the person he saw. Austin was outside, so his eyes would’ve been better adjusted to the darkness.
So they are on their right sides, heads in the direction of the T. Trayvon’s back is towards GZ. Trayvon’s face would be towards w11 patio. GZ has Trayvon’s left arm in an armlock with his left hand behind Trayvon’s back. Too bad they didn’t get nail scrapings from GZ. That small cut on Trayvon’s finger may have been caused by GZ’s fingernail.
GZ lifts his right hip or moves sideways to a sitting position, to get his gun. That probably would release the lock on Trayvon’s shoulder enough for him to roll out of the arm lock. He would’ve to roll towards GZ to get his arm free. I think he would’ve rolled to his back and towards a sitting position to get the shoulder released from the lock. So Trayvon may be sitting or moving towards a sitting position facing south east GZ gets into a sitting position facing west, he grabs the shirts with his left hand and pulls Trayvon down and towards him and shoots.
I had to get to this point, visualizing and typing before I got your remark about the loose arm.
I think this is a very likely theory. If this is the case, I think Trayvon would’ve been shot with both of them in a sitting position.
“That small cut on Trayvon’s finger…”
…was referred to as an abrasion, not a cut or laceration, by the people who actually did the autopsy.
unitron
Thanks Unitron,
That really changes everything.
@whonoze,
I hope I am not causing you another headache. I promised I wouldn’t go medieval on Unitron again, and attack the person.
I don’t disagree that some of the theories on Leatherman are baseless and sometimes just ridiculous. But showing that an argument against GZ is not based in fact or reality, is not in it self proof that GZ’s narrative is based in fact or reality.
I think I am applying Unitron’s standards of critical discourse, when I am arguing against his positions. But if the tone bothers you I’ll stop my interactions with unitron.
“But showing that an argument against GZ is not based in fact or reality, is not in it self proof that GZ’s narrative is based in fact or reality.”
Of course it isn’t, but when someone says ” ‘X’ proves ‘Y’ “, it has nothing to do with taking sides to either point out problems with that argument, or to say “Where are you getting ‘X’ from?”.
unitron
Unitron
I am not disagreeing with you that some of the theories at Leatherman are not based on facts, as a matter of fact I actually went back to check documents so I could make an informed argument against the Bernosky ct.
But I find your counter arguments not very convincing either. LLMpapa makes some very good arguments in his videos, and some very bad ones. You may not like his style but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have a valuable voice in the discourse.
It is very easy to just cut down and belittle other people’s work, but you would be more believable if you would put something out there yourself for other people to nitpick apart.
” LLMpapa makes some very good arguments in his videos, and some very bad ones.”
Hard for me to tell.
When someone turns out videos with carefully selected soundtrack music designed to play to one’s emotions and lots of “look how creative I am” graphic effects (instead of keeping the picture still long enough to let me figure out what I’m looking at), I figure what I’m being offered isn’t information, but something somewhere between propaganda and an editorial, so I rarely bother to look at them.
And his tendency to let said music drown out people’s voices when I’m trying to hear what they’re saying (otherwise why include them if not for them to be heard), well that doesn’t make me any more likely to watch his stuff.
“…you would be more believable if you would put something out there yourself for other people to nitpick apart.”
You learn more by asking questions.
I’m not out to be believable, I’m out to see what (and who) is believable.
I didn’t decide what I believed about what happened that night and only then start looking at the evidence with a great deal of emotional investment in finding confirmation and avoiding contradiction. I started looking at the evidence with an open mind trying to figure out what happened that night.
unitron
@Unitron
Students in a classroom are given assignments, books, and study material. They take in knowledge and then ask questions for things they don’t understand or need to have clarify.
Unitron, you have assigned a position to everyone else to be your teacher. There are times you take a position through your questions that conveys you don’t do your homework because it’s more entertaining to just keep asking questions of everyone else.
Personally, I don’t see other bloggers as my teacher neither students but rather, peers. . Many of us have our own area of concentration. At times, the area of concentration is based on experience and/or education. Do I learn from them? Yes. Do I obligate them to answer my questions? No. Do I answer their questions when I know the answer? Yes. Do they obligate me to point them in the direction of evidence if I were to say, for instance, that what they are looking for was stated in the Feb. 5th hearing? No.
IOWs, if you want to learn, it requires that you put time into the subject and then if you have a question, ask it.
Personally again, there are times I read your questions and responses and think of you as a 13 year old practicing on how to upset girls as a form of flirting.
Obviously LLMpapa’s videos are not for you. But guess what your opinions and tastes are not the gold standard.
If the answer is already implied in the question, asking questions is used as a rethorical device, not as a way to learn from others. I don’t object to using that device, I’ve used it myself in a couple comments to you earlier, which by the way you didn’t bother to reply to. Pretending that you are seeking information in those cases, signals to me that you are not interested in having a serious debate about the facts.
For example this sentence written by you
Here you are making an argument who you are not like without specifying who that person you are not like is. You are not saying anything about yourself.
Who is this person you are talking about who decided first what happened that night and only then started looking at evidence with a great deal of emotional investment in finding confirmation and avoiding contradiction?
How did you find out all this information about this person, without looking at that person with a great deal of emotional investment in order to find confirmation and avoid contradiction about the nature of this person you claim not to be like?
And what makes this undefined person relevant to the conversation we are having?
@amsterdam1234 You wrote to Unitron
He did the same to me a few days ago on Leatherman’s blog. First, he started out answering, but his answers included the kitchen sink. He refused to stay on the subject and continued referring to Witness 8 when the subject had nothing to do with her. After I told him I was staying on point, he said he needed to get some sleep and would answer later. However, he continued posting comments to others — more questions — twisted and belittling.
I don’t totally disregard him, but I do make an effort not to get into the personal back and forth. If you noticed, I’ve held my tongue for several days now.
Hi xena,
Yes I noticed. Whonoze and others on this site have a different opinion about Unitron. They are of the opinion Unitron is cynical, but at heart is trying to find the truth. I value their opinion, so I am trying to find that honest truth seeking core in Unitron, in my own not to subtle pitbull terrier way.
In my opinion, a real cynic stays true to his cynicisme when observing himself.
@Xena,
I guess I hadn’t seen the latest intteration yet. 😒
It is kind frustrating to see that LLMpapa’s video about the other complex is now the new truth on FL.
Let me give you the facts, so maybe you can help keep things on the straight and narrow on FL.
There was a car trolling the mail area on TTL around the time of the nen call. If that was not GZ in his car, he never was on TTL during the nen call. I don’t think that is likely. The way the car moved and stopped in front of the mail area, makes it clear that the person in that car was observing someone standing in the mail shade.
It takes about 14 to 15 minutes to walk from the 7 eleven to the mail area in RATL. Trayvon left the 7 eleven at 6:30 pm. At 6:55 pm you can see that it is raining hard in the eastpool video. It seems relatively dry from 6:46 to 6:54 in the eastpool video.
At 6:38 in the bank video, it appears it is raining. So somewhere between 6:38 and 6:46 it stopped raining or at least the rain turned into a drizzle.
If we are to believe DD, and I have no reason not to, Trayvon ran into the complex and under the mail shade at 6:54. That would mean it took him about 24 minutes, or 10 minutes longer than Google indicates the walk from the 7 eleven to the mail shade at RATL would take. It would make sense he stopped earlier to take cover from the rain in one of the breezeways in
CV. The mail area in CV is on the west side of the complex.
Somebody on TL has taken pictures of CV, the mail area there, the breezeways and the dirt path connecting Rinehart rd and Oregon ave.
The person who took the pictures, couldn’t find a way to get into LE during the day. I think it is a safe bet, Trayvon couldn’t get in there at night.
If Trayvon would’ve entered CV, before the main entrance into the complex, he would’ve left the dirt path and ran towards the appartment buildings via the parkinglot bordering the dirt path.
Past the main entrance, the appartment buildings bordering Oregon ave.
Even if he had entered via the main entrance, the mail area wouldn’t be the obvious place, to hide from the rain, since it is of of the main road.
I do think Trayon found shelter at CV for a short while. I actually always thought he may have, because of the time it took him to get to RATL.
The most logical spot for him to take cover, would’ve been one of the breezeways, not the mail shade.
I’ll post this now before I lose it, I’ll get you a link to the photos.
@ Xena
Here is a set of pictures that includes 2 pictures of the dirt path. One of them looking towards Rinehart, the other towards Oregon ave.
@amsterdam1234 Thanks for the pictures. I’ve not placed much interest into examining the where’s of Trayvon — think that the clubhouse videos are very damaging to GZ’s story. What I have and still do wonder about is the importance of the M&I Bank video in support of the State’s case. If someone at that bank called GZ, and with the State having GZ’s phone records, they will know. They might not know the content of the conversation, but they will know the timing.
@Xena,
Here is a set of Colonial village. The first photo is a shot of the appartment buildings from Oregon Ave.
It is itteration not intteration. If you think auto correct is an irritant, you’ve never tried typing english while your ipad insists on replacing your words with dutch words.
@ amsterdam:
You’re arguing the substance, not making an ad hominem attack. And you’re not being snarky about it, but taking the debate seriously. You’re getting Enlightenment on some ideas rather than getting medieval on anyone’s tuchas. Carry on.
😊
I am not sure if I would call it Enlightenment.
I am sorry to say I am largely responsible for the fresh CV-mailbox issue over there.
When it came out as attachment to BDLR’s brilliant rebuttal of O’mara, I typed up DeeDee’s “letter”. And remarked that it mentioned the other complex, which she had also mentioned in the first interview tape. .I even mentioned someone, I think Trent Sawyer, making a video showing Trayvon walking through there.
So they grab and run with it. Not really knowing the evidence at all. (Getting a bit sick of that, eg at least 10 times now I’ve had to post that GZ DID have a wallet with him).
Anyway. DeeDee never said “mailbox” or “mail-shed”. She said “awning” or “overhang” at the point where she was referring to the other complex (CV). The interviewer/interrupter is the first to mention mail something, shed or boxes, I can’t recall. And she sort of agrees, imagining that he knows what the place looks like, so yes that must have been the spot Trayvon mentioned as awning.
This “drags” Trayvon to the RATL mailboxes maybe 5 to 10 minutes earlier than he really got there. DeeDee said nothing to indicate he was at the MAIL in Colonial Village. Just awnings or cover. So Amsterdam’s breezeways fit that nicely. DeeDee says nothing about his being followed or stared at until 2 or 3 “and then he says” later, each of which could be covering 2 to 5 minutes.
The melodrama about “little sis” being the tipster…. well. There was one of his police calls worried about a “little sister” living in Colonial Village. But that was in 2005. Someone dug up a Grace Zimmerman on some website, with a CV address. But (a) aged mid 30s which would not make her LITTLE sis and (b) we don’t know her second name is Zimmerman and in fact I think that would be highly unlikely. This story was coming along very nicely about on par, for factual content, with the 3 stooges at 7-11 buying T and blunt and him selling them some weed.
That’s not to say GZ would not be familiar with CV, I’m sure he’d have driven around in there just for being a sticky-beak.
But he didn’t SEE Trayvon until he’d trolled up and down RVC looking for him, based on a tip-off long enough ago that T was no longer there by the time G got there…. so he had to go searching the likely route. Heaps of evidence pointing to this, ZERO pointing to seeing him in CV.
It is amazing isn’t it? It always fascinates me why and how people’s cognitive processes can be so different from each other.
I never paid much attention to his wallet, simply because the police didn’t process his car. It doesn’t matter to the case whether he had his wallet on his person or not, since he can always claim his wallet was in the car.
But after you mentioned it, I did go looking for it, and I couldn’t find Singleton mentioning the permit. I did find an interview with Smith, where Smith said GZ had a permit in his wallet. Now Smith assisted Serino, when GZ’s clothes were taken into custody after Shellie got the change of clothes for him.
Are you sure Singleton mentioned it too? Like I said, I don’t think it is relevant to the case, but it would be an interesting detail.
What fascinates me is how major pieces of evidence can be ignored by the vast majority of supposed case followers. The map that Singleton printed out and asked GZ to mark his positions on is to me a vital piece of evidence in the case and suggests the nature of GZ’s false narrative by including the probable position of his car facing the mail kiosk, as seen in the clubhouse pool video. GZ marked the placement of his car and then IMMEDIATELY retracted it and replaced the story with an obvious lie. How can so many people miss the connection?
People are flocking like birds to the “colonial village” theory which lacks any substantial proof whatsoever but ignore something made in the killer’s own handwriting that explains his false narrative so well…
You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him think.
In all fairness though, Willis, that hand drawn map was dreadful, a photocopy of a screenshot of a google map, barely legible. And the markings made no sense unless viewed in conjunction with listening to the Singleton interview.
Too much multi-tasking, for many.
It requires a lot of work. I don’t know how you guys process the information, but I’ve walked Tayvon’s path more times than I care to remember. The timing, the pieces of evidence, things people have said have become like a holodeck movie to me. When a new piece of evidence becomes available, I have to walk the path again to see where it fits and what its effect is on the complete picture. A new piece of evidence sometimes clarifies or solidefies the picture I have in my mind. Sometimes it destroys the picture and I have to start all over again.
I also think that one of the reasons may be what I consider the American habit to mythologize. This need to see one of two as all evil and the other as all good. I sometimes get the impression the answers people are looking for, is not the truth but that which confirms their myths. I see GZ and I see a guy with poor judgement and poor anger management skills, who should never have been allowed to walk around with a gun. I see Trayvon as a regular teenager. It bothers me when people talk about what a good kid he was, a kid who was going to be someone, a kid that mattered. That may very well be true about Trayvon, but I don’t think a kid that would’ve been caught stealing a cheap piece of electronics, deserves to be executed on a dog walk. If Trayvon would’ve been that kid, a social and economic failure like GZ, would’ve been bestowed with that hero status he so desperately needs.
Sometimes I think people are looking to have their myths confirmed, and reality s not what thy are interested in.
“I sometimes get the impression the answers people are looking for, is not the truth but that which confirms their myths….Sometimes I think people are looking to have their myths confirmed, and reality s not what thy are interested in.”
Who are you and what have you done with the real amsterdam1234?
unitron
New thread up: