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BCClist Diaspora
This post is just to create a new comment thread for people from BCClist, where NLME hasn’t opened a new thread in months, and the page is getting very slow to load. I’ve changed the WordPress settings for comments, for now anyway, so only your first post to this blog will require moderation. Happy New Year!
Categories: Uncategorized
whonoze 
So does getting moderated for the first time hurt very much?
Is it like getting vacinated?
: – )
unitron
Ordinarily I know how to spell “vaccinated”.
: – (
unitron, who wishes WordPress offered at least a preview mode if not an edit mode.
Hi Whonoze,
Thanks for the new home.
Waiting patiently for the flood gates to open.
Greetings and Happy New Year, friends.
If NLME surfaces, he should give access to someone who can be around more often. I don’t think he knew what he was getting into when he put up one small map……..
and it didn’t let me use the my usual name……..
It’s me, Aussie….
I couldn’t use my regular name either. Good to see you all. My IPad couldn’t handle the long list of comments anymore.
I ended up on FL, but things have changed there, or maybe you just get used discussing stuff in a certain way.
I would like to know what the concenssus is about the path that was followed on the dog walk. I got into a lengthy discussion about evidence that GZ followed Trayvon south/north. I don’t think there is evidence for that. Doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. What do you all think.
@Amsterdam,
Very interesting about directions now. I had come to the understanding from all the evidence that the confrontaion moved from the T towards Greens’ home. I still have not gotten a full size map of the complex as of yet, I tend to work better from visual aids. I am still trying to digest this other direction. Anywho, how is the video coming along?
Blushedbrown,
I don’t think the path was south north. But at FL I ran into people who are convinced there is evidence for that. I am just interested what you all think about the path.
Here’s a map: http://tinyurl.com/d4x2y6b
One thing that struck me about Dave’s video (the latest one I think) was the view of RVC looking down south towards the back entrance to the neighborhood, right where GZ claimed he was standing banging his flashlight. Whonoze had long posited that GZ headed down that way. In the daytime even, it’s hard to see someone if they were to cross the street down by the back entrance. Therefore, it makes a lot of sense now for GZ to naturally walk, saunter, run, shimmy or whatever down RVC for at least part of the way to see if he could spot TM. He clearly wasn’t out of breath by the time he got off the phone with NEN, so it makes me think he did a little jogging down RVC after hanging up because DeeDee mentioned he sounded out of breathe. We’ll never know if he cut back between the buildings or made it all the way down and then back up the dog walk because we can’t know how much time he actually spent standing there scratching his a$$ before moving on or how fast he moved down that way.
Are you sure the young lady wasn’t talking about Trayvon being out of breath, and not the person behind the other voice she says she heard?
unitron
Well, she said she could tell he was tired…..this is from Screamin’ Jay’s transcript of DeeDee’s interview with the prosecutor:
BDLR: The other voice of the other person you heard, you had never heard before?
Dee Dee: No.
BDLR: OK. Could you tell it was a man versus a woman? The other voice.
Dee Dee: I thought it was a man.
BDLR: You thought it was a man.
Dee Dee: It is a man, ’cause it had a deep voice.
BDLR: OK. And could you tell the man whether his voice was real loud… screaming at
Trayvon, or was it just a normal conversation like you and I are having? When you said Trayvon
said, ‘What are you following me’..or something, whatever…and the guy replied something,
‘What are you doing here?’ Was it a normal conversation, or could you tell the man was like
loud?
Dee Dee: Kinda angry.
BDLR: Angry?
Dee Dee: Yeah.
BDLR: Why do you say kind of angry?
Dee Dee: Cause he said it like so deep… ‘What are you doin’ ’round here?’
BDLR: But you could clearly hear that…
Dee Dee: Yeah.
BDLR: OK…alright. Um….
Dee Dee: And you could hear he was tired too.
BDLR: Who was tired?
16Dee Dee: The old man.
BDLR: How could you tell that?
Dee Dee: He was like, ‘What are you doing ’round here?’ He breathin’ ‘What you doin’ ’round
here?’
BDLR: OK, in was a louder…
Dee Dee: Yeah.
Thanks.
I’m pretty sure there’s somewhere as well that she says Trayvon was tired and/or out of breath, but I’d forgotten or somehow missed her saying that about “the old man”.
(teenagers don’t know nuthin’ ’bout real oldness)
unitron
(who ain’t gettin’ any younger, but hopes to keep getting older for a long time yet, considering the only alternative)
She did talk about TM being out of breathe earlier in the interview. Interestingly, it seems like the prosecutor kinda led her into using that term of being “out of breath” and “breathing hard”. I don’t think she really meant he was panting and about to pass out from running away from a madman. I think anyone who’s running even if they’re fit would “sound” like they’re breathing harder than normal and she could tell the difference (BTW, I think Jay made a mistake with “right by his ass”, I think it should be “right by his house” or “right by his dad’s house”)
****************
Dee Dee: So he put his hoodie on. So I said, ‘What’s going on?’ He said this man is still
watching him. Like in a car…so he about to run from the back. So then I told him, go to his dad
house. Run to his Dad house.
BDLR: Go to what?
Dee Dee: Run to his dad house.
BDLR: To his dad’s house?
Dee Dee: Yeah.
BDLR: OK.
Dee Dee: So he say he about to run for the back cause its mo’ easier, he said. So, next thing I
hear, he gettin’ run. And I can hear that the wind blowin’…
BDLR: So you could tell he was running at that time…
Dee Dee: Yeah.
BDLR: OK, and then what happened?
Dee Dee: And then…he say he lost him.
BDLR: He lost..like…the man?
Dee Dee: Yeah.
9BDLR: So, was Trayvon at that time…you could tell he was like, out of breath, like excited…
Dee Dee: Yeah. . .
BDLR: …like, like…
Dee Dee: Yeah.
BDLR: OK.
Dee Dee: Then…
BDLR: Take your time; I know this is difficult for you
Dee Dee: He lost him; he was breathin’ hard. An…by the sound his voice…voice kinda
change…
BDLR: Who? Trayvon?
Dee Dee: Yeah.
BDLR: OK, what do you mean by that, his voice changed?
Dee Dee: [unintelligible] I know he was scare.
BDLR: I’m sorry?
Dee Dee: I know he was scare. He…
BDLR: How..how…could …tell…and I know what you’re trying to tell me, but if you could,
describe to me how you could tell he was scared.
Dee Dee: Voice was getting kind of low…[unintelligible]…breathin’ har’…
BDLR: So, you could tell he was emotional like somebody who was like in fear?
Dee Dee: Yeah…he say he lost him…
BDLR: OK…he was breathing hard?
Dee Dee: He say he lost him…breathin’ har’, you know. And I like, he goin’…so he say he lost
him. And then a couple…and then he say he right by his ass…he ru’, he go’ keep ru’ ’til hi’ dad
house.
I thought I remembered it being Bernie mis-hearing the “right by” remark.
unitron
(who does not have all of these transcripts at his fingertips)
Well, you’re right in that BDLR thought she said “right by his ass”, but I wanted to clarify that DeeDee actually says he was right by his dad’s house, and she had to go back and re-explain it. Listen at around 8:50 in the interview with BDLR.
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-8-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/
The question of what path was followed ought to be qualified by ‘when’. My hypothesis is that GZ began following TM first by moving his truck East on TTL, after TM walked past the truck and continued on toward the cut through sidewalk. Then TM got near the T and ran South down the dog walk. GZ got out of his truck and followed Trayvon’s path to the T, but did not turn South down the dog walk. Rather he continued on to RVC and turned South there. After his NEN call ended, he continued South and eventually cut back to the dog walk, either down on the lower leg of TTL or between the buildings on the West side of RVC. At this point he re-encountered Trayvon, who was walking South down the dog walk at the time. So TM turned around, headed North on the dog walk back towards the T, and GZ followed him. So that part of the pursuit was South to North, IMHO
But, assuming this is how things happened, there seem to be two possibilities for the path just before the confrontation:
A. GZ caught up to TM in the vicinity of JohnW6’s backyard. Trayvon turned, and their verbal confrontation happened very close to where the struggle and the shooting occurred.
B. GZ did not catch up to Trayvon until Trayvon reached the T again. That was where he turned and the verbal confrontation occurred. As the struggle began, the action moved back to the South, winding up in John’s back yard.
“B” would be consistent with W11’s statement, as she said she heard the conflict moving North to South, but I question her veracity. It also would seem to be consistent with the evidence markers, as some objects were found North of the body. However, there are two pieces of evidence that point rather strongly to “A”. First, DeeDee’s account suggests the men went to the ground rather quickly after their verbal exchange. Second, when GZ tries to show how the struggle moved from the T to John’s backyard, his demonstration of swimming motions is ludicrous, and he doesn’t even get close to John’s, only managing to stagger back to about the middle of W11 and Jeremy’s yard. IIRC, all the evidence found North of the body is along the line GZ walked after getting up from the body, as per W18’s sketch. So he could have dropped those items AFTER the shooting to help conceal or at least confuse the path he had actually taken.
However, I certainly can’t say with any certitude that “B” did NOT happen. A South to North pursuit up the dogwalk, and a moving North to South confrontation back down the walk for a ways are not mutually exclusive.
—
Amsterdam, IIRC you posited on Leatherman’s that GZ may have gotten to the South of TM by driving down towards the rear gate. I think that’s fundamentally inconsistent with the physical evidence of the NEN call. There isn’t enough time between the point where GZ is describing TM walking from the clubhouse area (mailboxes) towards his truck, and the point where he gets out of the truck. On the other side, if he had been at the South when he got out of the truck, he would have caught up to Trayvon sooner than he did.
Whonoze,
I think it is not likely he was driving his car on RVC towards the east gate, but it is possible. If that happened, it was after he got of the phone. Seconds after the nen call ends, a car is driving west on TTL towards the north gate.
The nen call ends at 7:13:40, you can see the headlights in the ep video beginning at 7:13:46.
I find it difficult to believe GZ would say his car was parked on TTL when in fact he left it on RVC. But if you would’ve told me, GZ would’ve had Shelley lying on the stand about the money, and they discussed the money in recorded jail house calls in some kind of childlike code, I would’ve had a hard time believing that too.
If that was GZ driving the car, he could’ve been on RVC close to the cut-through at about 7:14:40.
@whonoze comment25
I applied the GZ lies rule.
1) He is coming to check me out = Trayvon passing his car
2) He disappeared in the darkness of the sidewalk, I couldn’t see where he went = Shit he is running, jumps out of the car and runs in the direction of RVC.
3) He reappeared out of the darkness, circled my car and disappeared in between the houses = GZ saw Trayvon reappearing and followed him in between the houses.
That showing up again circling his car and disappearing again story fascinates me. It doesn’t have a purpose, we know it couldn’t have happened the way he described it. So I think it is a placeholder for how they met up again.
I don’t think GZ was south of Trayvon. If he was in his car, I think he spotted Trayvon, who was on his way back to the northern T. In that case he must have left his car on the RVC side of the cut-through.
It is possible Trayvon didn’t go south, but went either east to RVC, or north between a gap in the houses, and ran behind the houses on the other side of RVC. That is more consistent with him being out of breath. When he thought he’d lost GZ, he started walking back towards the T, crossing RVC at the same time GZ was driving towards the east gate. Speculation of course, but I checked the the timing and it is a possible.
GZ tells NEN Operator Sean a few lies, but mostly he’s relating things that are happening at the moment, “Now’s he’s coming toward me” (true) “He’s got a button on his shirt.” (true) “I don’t know what his deal is” (true) “Yup, he’s coming to check me out.” (lie). He does want the police to get there (why else call) and he tries to describe the location of his truck twice, but fails to do so clearly each time. (I think he’s a bit boozed up, given his odd slurred sing-songy speach patterns that are NOT in evidence in other recordings of his voice.) So I think he’s just reporting what was what when he told Sean Trayvon was headed ‘down toward the back entrance’ i.e. South. He’s already out of his truck when he says this and he then runs for over 20 seconds in pursuit of TM. The truck has to have been on TTL when he left it, as Trayvon would not have had time to travel far enough that GZ would even know that driving South might lead him to intercept the young man.
@whonoze,
Yes he was out of his car while on the phone. But we don’t know which direction he went after the tapping sound stopped. He may have wandered south, but he may also have been heading towards his car. He had no idea where Trayvon had gone and he may have wanted his car to drive around in search of Trayvon.. It is possible that when he got of the phone he was standing next to his car..
Just look at your secvid. 6 seconds after he ended the nen call you can see the car driving on TTL towards the north gate. Of course that could’ve been somebody else, but he had lost sight of Trayvon for 2 minutes at that time and he had no reason to believe Trayvon was still near by.
@whonoze,
Just to clarfy. Nothing what we thought about GZ’s movements during the nen call changes. He stops at the mail area, drives west for the uturn when his connection with the nen is made. He makes a uturn, stops facing west near the first bend. Trayvon starts walking and passes him(he is coming to check me out). He follows Trayvon in his car towards the cut-through. When Trayvon starts running, he jumps out of his car and runs after him.
I think he didn’t see what direction Trayvon went. I think you are right he never stopped at the T, but he went straight to
RVC.
He stopped running at about 7:12:15. You can hear the tapping sounds for about 30 seconds. If we assume he stopped running on RVC and was tapping his flashlight for about 30 seconds, what was he doing the last minute of the call? Did he stay at the same spot or was he walking? And if he was walking, in what direction?
I think you would agree with me, that if GZ had seen Trayvon going onto that dog walk, he wouldn’t have continued running to RVC. So why look for him on the dog walk?
He ran for about 26 seconds in one direction. It takes about twice as long to do the same distance at regular walking speed. 1 minute walk in the direction from where he came, would’ve taken him back to his car.
Again I have no evidence that is what he did, but there is no evidence either to make it impossible.
@ Amsterdam cmmt #24
I don’t agree that if GZ had seen TM running down the dog-walk, he would not have continued to RVC. Trayvon had a big head start on him. GZ thought he knew where Trayvon was going. So he aimed to take another path to that spot to intercept him, perhaps hoping “the asshole” would slow down once he realized GZ was not following him directly. This is pretty standard procedure for vehicle chases in cop movies and TV shows, and it may be based on actual pursuit training that GZ learned from Osterman or his other cop buddies. I guess one bit of evidence that it could have been a conscious strategy is the fact it seems to have worked.
Why would Trayvon start walking back towards the T???
The only possible reason for him to not keep going south, which is where he was living, is because GZ is blocking his way — “cornered” as DeeDee says.
Whether he went down TTL (my favourite) or down the doggie path, he’d best lose GZ by ducking into a cut-through between buildings. On the TTL side.
GZ, looking along the path and not seeing him, had plenty of time to get across to RVC (as he claims he did albeit for a different purpose) to see if the suspect hadn’t gone through to RVC. Seeing nothing, he goes back to the path via a cut-through, a sigh of disappointment in his voice……. then suddenly brightens up and says Nah, get them to call me…….. (“cos I don’t know where I”m going to be”) when he spots Trayvon leaving HIS secure cut-through resting spot.
All possible cut-throughs are SOUTH of the death site. The first one off RVC is south of the first one off TTL, meaning GZ would be emerging south of Trayvon, thus blocking his intended southward path.
The only way to go is north.
Per DeeDee the first item to go to ground is the phone. Wasn’t that found SOUTH of the body?
We have to remember that when GZ got out of his truck to follow Trayvon, Trayvon had already turned the corner and was heading south AND, at that time GZ was still on the phone with NEN. So, if there was any shouting and such as the witness tries to tell us, that would have been picked up on the NEN call. Instead both parties state they had lost track of each other at that point in time. So the testimony about the fight “bending the corner” has to be false, because it wasn’t on the NEN tape, which that witness didn’t know about. Just as GZ did not know that his voice was being picked up on a witnesses 911 call.
TM has such a lead, I doubt that GZ could catch up to him, on foot. But, as someone says, GZ slipped up in one of his interviews and says that he went to RVC to meet a police… Note that his voice changes and he ends his call quickly. Could it be he didn’t
want the sound of the car or truck to be heard by the dispatcher? Imagine that MO was approaching when GZ saw his truck, he quickly ended his call because his ride north was here.
So he puts an arm in the window and steps on the running board, for a swift ride to the back gate, where he beats a slow walking TM to the house. Then, as per his plan, he attempts to drive TM back north to the T, but, instead they make so much noise that witnesses come out. Once seen so far south, it does GZ no good to herd TM back to the T, because GZ has lost his claim of not being south of the T.
GZ’s plan to claim that his head wounds come from being bashed on the concrete, means GZ needs to bring TM down to the ground. So he grapples with him and they both go down and roll a bit. Trouble is, the blood on GZ’s head is already pretty well dry, so it’s not sticky enough to pick up any debris. I’ve seen one picture where the blood trails seem almost like all plasma, which would dry clear with little specks of red blood here and there.
Anyway, you don’t grab a combative opponent by the center chest garments. Because, by doing so, you are sacrificing the use of one hand. A hand that would be needed for defense, if your opponent were truly a deadly threat. You can only sacrifice the use of one hand, to hold the center chest garments, of a person over whom you have total control and who is not resisting physically.
This can be confirmed if we can find another marshal artist or other combat professional on the net to evaluate it for us. Preferably someone with a website and a school self defense school. I think I’ll do another search.
I’m just reading the opinions of a few posters I’ve come to trust, the only data points I’ve been able to extract so far, that I think can be trusted is, some time after GZ left his truck, he somehow caught up with Trayvon, before TM could get to the house. He then chased TM north. I get the impression he was forcing TM north, intending to force him all the way to the T, so that his planned, and probably rehearsed story would work.
But the kid stopped running for some reason and the noise they were making brought witnesses out. Having been seen south of the T by witnesses, there was no longer any point in forcing TM any further south. As soon as GZ thought he had a little privacy, he drew his weapon and killed TM then and there.
My guess, why he had to kill him is, he was already wearing bloody wounds that he would have to claim he had obtained by being attacked. A live TM could refute any such attack, via his childish personality. GZ would probably be moved against by his neighbors who are already frightened of him. He has to realize that several 911 calls had been made, so the media would probably respond here as well. He already knows that the SP leadership is racist, and the prosecutor as well via the chief and probably his dad. So, he might as well take a chance on murder via SYG, than to have a live child crying for mama in front of the camera on the 11o’clock news.
I doubt GZ was herding TM North. Upon encountering GZ again, Trayvon just naturally turned the other way to get away from hiim — and to lead him away from the Green home where Chad was home alone, as TM must have been guessing GZ might be some sort of sexual predator. There are too many x-factors in this scenario for it to have been planned and rehearsed, I mean it’s beyond Mission Impossible type stuff for all the pieces to have fallen together following the script of some elaborately intricate plot.
Thank you Whonoze for the temporary digs
So this is where the party is…..Did anybody bring booze?
to all on bcclist-(and this blog) happy belated new year, how do i pass moderation?
“to all on bcclist-(and this blog) happy belated new year, how do i pass moderation?”
Bring the booze, of course.
: – )
unitron
😎
Whonoze made an interesting observation about a pattern in GZ’s lies that I had also noticed. GZ is not very creative, he uses real events and changes them to suit his narrative.
I thought it would be a good idea to go back to his very first written statement. Here is the link
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0BywhXXlFGQYXRmVsLVNCMmJlZDQ
I have not spend that much attention to that statement, probably because his handwriting is very hard to read. That is why i’ve typed it out. Here is the link to the typed version
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0BywhXXlFGQYXM0hJaWJfSzRTTU0
Like I said, his handwriting is hard to read, so if anyone thinks I’ve made a mistake, let me know so I can change it.
I suspect one of GZ’s distortions is his claim that Trayvon told him, “You’re going to die tonight, MF!” I would guess GZ declared this to TM.
Were you able to open the link? And did you notice he didn’t use the Taaffe story for the set up?
But these two things are contradictory. If his truck was on TTL, and he returned there at the end of the NEN call. He couldn’t have been driving North on TTL 6 seconds later, at least not from the vicinity of the back entrance, or the RVC end of the cut-through sidewalk. Your hypothesis requires that GZ have driven at least to the South end of TTL before he got out of the truck, and you have him going even farther up RVC. That’s just not possible in the time frame established by the NEN call.
Dang. That was supposed to go under Amsterdam’s comment #23.
I found it. The blessings of a short comment thread.
Check this http://www.showme.com/sh/?h=S2U1FLM
The x is where GZ’s car was parked. First he runs towards RVC, then walks back to his car and starts driving. Trayvon may have been in the blue area.
willis newton here just dropping a line to get past moderation
Glad to see the usual suspects over here. Does anyone know what’s been going on in general at JusticeQuest and TalkLeft? I can’t really access them anymore but used to occasionally learn interesting things by lurking about.
I tried signing up at JQ several months ago and I guess it must have been my age (not usually asked that), but I got accepted and then unaccepted almost instantaneously, never got to use my password.
Are you saying you can’t even access TalkLeft in read-only mode?
And do you mean the main site or the State versus Zimmerman-specific forum?
unitron
Walking back, getting in, starting up, driving around……… takes LONGER than just walking down RVC from the T. And involves leaving the area the suspect was last seen, so reduces the chances of spotting him again.
Staying on foot keeps him close enough to have a chance of spotting him again. As Trayvon can only have gone down TTL, DogPath or RVC, anyone can cover visual on all three just by going across between the cut-throughs, back and forth. In the time it takes to he go back and drives around, the suspect could be out the back gate and gone.
Believing in KISS, I don’t think there was any nefarious evidence-hiding behind Shellie taking GZ’s vehicle home, either. At the scene they’d not know if he was going to be held or released. In any case they were planning to go wait for him/pick him up at the station. So the vehicle would end up virtually abandoned, ie would need to be taken home sooner or later anyway. What better time than when MO is around to save her walking to/from home for the purpose?
I know Aussie, and I have a difficult time believing GZ left his car on RVC, while claiming his car was on TTL. But the only evidence we have about how Trayvon moved between the time he ran and when he got into the altercation, is the time between these events, almost 4 minutes and DD’s statements.
We have no evidence about GZ’s movements between after he ended the call and the beginning of the altercation other than the time between those events, GZ’s statements and the clubhouse videos.
Trayvon was gone for almost 4 minutes. If you listen to DD’s statements, she doesn’t mention Trayvon hiding somewhere and not moving around. She urges him to keep running, not to keep walking, and she thinks the reason he stopped running was, that he was tired and out of breath.
Let’s look at the sequence
Dee Dee: No, he say he lost the guy…
BDLR: OK.
Dee Dee: And then he ran from the back…
BDLR: Right.
Dee Dee: He say he lost him.
BDLR: OK.
Dee Dee: He started walking back again…and I told him ‘Keep runnin’.’
BDLR: So Trayvon said he started walking because he thought he had lost the guy.
Dee Dee: Yeah.
BDLR: OK.
Dee Dee: I say, ‘Keep runnin’.’
BDLR: OK.
There is no rest period here, and it sounds like he goes from running to walking, not from standing still to walking. She also says he started walking back again towards his father’s house, after he thought he’d lost GZ. That would indicate to me that his initial run was not in the direction of his dad’s house, but in an opposite direction.
So Trayvon ran somewhere, he lost GZ and he goes from running to walking back to his dad’s house. DD is not happy that he slowed down his speed, so she urges him on to pick it up and run. That is when we get the next part of the sequence where Trayvon reacts to DD’s urging to keep running.
Dee Dee: He say he ain’t goin’ run, cause he say he right by his father house…
BDLR: OK.
How close was he to his father’s house, and did he stop and hide at that time? DD doesn’t say, and I think he didn’t have enough time to run in an opposite direction, walk back to just yards away from his dad’s house see GZ approaching from the south, and then have a south north chase up the dog walk to the spot where he was killed.
Maybe that is what happened, but we have no evidence of a south north chase.
Let’s look at what we know about GZ’s movements.
We know from the clubhouse videos that when GZ said about Trayvon ” now he is coming towards me”, GZ was parked at the first curb of TTL facing the mail boxes. It is very likely that is when according to DD
said that this white dude in a car who was on the phone, was watching him and Trayvon started walking east on TTL passing GZ’s car, to continue his way home.
We can hear the gear in the nen call, and DD describes Trayvon’s observations.
Dee Dee: He was telling me like…like he a man watching him, so he like started walking.
BDLR: He, Trayvon, started walking?
Dee Dee: He goin’ start walking.
BDLR: OK.
8Dee Dee: And then…the phone hung up. And I call him back again. And then, I say ‘What you
doin’?’ and he say he walkin’ and he said this man still following him, behind the car. And I’m
like…or like, he told me…he tell me..he put his hoodie on, so I like…
BDLR: He, Trayvon, put his hoodie on.
Dee Dee: Yeah.
BDLR: OK…
Dee Dee: Cause, he said it was startin’ a little bit dripping water….
BDLR: Uh huh.
Dee Dee: So he put his hoodie on. So I said, ‘What’s going on?’ He said this man is still
watching him. Like in a car…so he about to run from the back. So then I told him, go to his dad
house. Run to his Dad house.
Trayvon’s phonerecords show DD called him back at 7:12 pm. These records only show whole minutes, so it is a rounded number.
GZ says” shit he is running” at 7:11:40.
It seems very likely that GZ was following Trayvon in his car east towards the cut-through. But we don’t see a car making a uturn in the clubhouse videos to show that GZ’s car has moved from facing west on TTL to facing east. It is possible that his lights were off, but the alarm in his car when he opened his door, seem to indicate that his lights were on. Or his uturn was some how hidden from the ep video.
Or he was tailing Trayvon in reverse.
If you check Dave’s video, it takes Dave exactly the same time to walk from the mail boxes to where GZ said his car was parked on TTL as the time it takes in the nen call between GZ’s statement “now he is coming towards me” and “shit he is running”.
That makes it likely that Trayvon started running at about the spot where GZ said his car was parked. And I believe his car was parked there when we hear GZ jumping out of his car in the nen call.
Over on LL2, Susan’s timeline thread from last spring posits that the last call on Trayvon’s phone ran from about 7:11:30 PM to 7:15:30 PM, which makes what the young lady said happened during it seem to fit with everything else, i.e, what little other evidence there is, fairly well.
unitron
The phonerecords say 7:12 to 7:16 but they don’t show the seconds. And yes her statements match the evidence. The fact that the phone connection broke down several times, really helps to pin down when events occurred.
The 6:54 disconnect is very important. She said he ran in the mail area because it was raining. In the clubhouse videos you can see the rain coming down hard. It places Trayvon there about 14 minutes before GZ got there.
@Amsterdam
IIRC, there was a one minute call in between Trayvon talking to DeeDee, that was Chad.
@Aussie,
I would like to break it down. See where we agree, and where we disagree.
So in the posts above, I gave you my observation about how and where GZ and Trayvon were moving up to the moment Trayvon started running and GZ jumped out of his car.
GZ followed Trayvon in his car towards the cut-through in his car, Trayvon started running at about the spot GZ said he left his car. GZ’s car was probably parked near that spot, either facing east or west. The time is 7:11:40.
Do you agree with those observations, and if not where do you disagree and why?
Like I always say, many things are possible; what GZ claims happened is NOT possible. He lied, and he must have had a reason to lie about his movements on the evening in question.
I tend to think his initial gambit was to leave out the entire car-to-pedestrian chase and begin his (false) narrative at the point more or less where he exited his car and walked towards the T sidewalk intersection.
Here is his written statement, whichmay have been taken BEFORE Singleton began their first interview – but I’m not certain. Does anyone know the timing of when he wrote this?
GZ written statement excerpt:
“I pulled my vehicle over and called SPD non-emergency phone number. I told
the dispatcher what I had witnessed, the dispatcher took note of my location as the suspect fled to a darkened area of the sidewalk , as the dispatcher was asking me for an exact location the suspect emerged from the darkness and circled my vehicle. I could not hear if he said anything. The suspect once again disappeared between the back of some houses. The dispatcher once again asked me for my exact location. I could not remember the name of the street so I got out of my car to look for a street sign.”
IMO this is an attempt to begin the narrative in a place where the movements seen on the clubhouse videos – the u turns, the pause by the mailboxes, and the final u-turn are left out. The map GZ marked and then quickly amended, plus the timing of the movements and statements heard on the NEN call recording convince me (and a consensus of this group, I believe) that GZ parked near the first bend in TTL, close to the mailboxes, facing the mailboxes.
What happened after that IMO is that TM passed his vehicle and continued to walk down TTL until he neared the second corner, at which time he ran behind the building because he was being trailed slowly by the vehicle GZ was using, presumably the Honda Ridgeline. It’s not possible to know if GZ made a u-turn or backed his vehicle in reverse, but it seems to fit all the evidence that his car ended up near where he says it did – adjacent to the gap in the buildings at the curb near the second bend in TTL. (But possibly facing the opposite direction, as Taafee seems to have thought i was “according to George”) All of these actions can be shown to have occurred BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT in a court of law if the prosecution is savvy enough to care to present them. Their strategy may differ, but to me this would be a great way to establish that GZ has no credibility and displayed a pattern of lying to investigators, a pattern that could be extended into the “missing minutes” in order to convince a jury that GZ lied about firing his weapon in self defense.
Beyond that point in time, its very very difficult to say what really happened. Again, many things are possible but the evidence contradicts GZ’s varied tales and the pattern of lies seems consistent with the pattern that is established – GZ ascribes actions of his own to that of the teen and when in doubt leaves out inculpatory material that belies a self defense claim.
What little we can speculate about and try and deduce facts from needs to take into account the ORDER that his lies built up. It’s worth noting the “voice stress test” was given most likely as simply a ruse to get GZ to make more statements that could be used against him due to the inconsistencies and contradictions that are established every time he relates the (false) narrative. One important inconsistency in the “stress test” account is that he again seemingly claims he was struck to the ground immediately where they stood when they first confronted one another. As noted in comments above, when taken to the location in daytime he seems to adding the “stumbling” part for the first time after telling the story (if memory serves) three times already in a manner that says the body should have been found very near the T, not some 40.5 feet farther south. To me this alone is a very damning detail, and it is as if even in death Trayvon is testifying to a jury that the man who shot him is a liar. The location of the body contradicts the majority of the killer’s (inconsistent, often contradictory) tales to investigators. What their exact path was will likely never be known, absent a full confession by the killer, and even then it’s clear he lost sight of the youth for some time. He can only know his own path.
DId he return to his vehicle? We can’t know. We can guess it was possible, and it seems he may have. Did he chase the teen from the south towards the north, as W2 may have glimpsed? That’s also possible. The state has made comments in court to the effect that they have multiple witnesses to a “foot chase” that GZ cannot account for. AFAICT, this may mean Dee Dee and W2, two witnesses that in this matter who may or may not convince a jury “beyond a reasonable doubt” that a foot chase took place.
My own opinion is that whatever happened, GZ lied about it since it’s clear he lied about many other things. My strongest hunch is that TM rounded the corner at a run, ducked into the back yards of W11 and W6 and never himself actually walked on the sidewalk at the T. His feet would have already been wet and the sidewalk was not the shortest path to a spot where he felt safer.
The fact that there is no physical evidence TM ever went anywhere more north than the tan grocery bag is something I also find significant. There’s also no physical evidence he ever went south of his own cell phone, found near the body. It’s possible he stopped running more or less on the exact spot where he died, and stood there speaking on the phone as GZ plodded past the T heading to RVC, banging on his flashlight, talking on his phone and oblivious to the teen standing 30-50 feet to his rear. Then, when GZ returned from RVC his outline became visible to GZ who was now facing his direction and moving his own perspective, causing the teen to be backlit against some windows. GZ nears the T, and the two exchange words.
But where he ran and where he encountered GZ is impossible to know given the evidence at hand. Many things are possible. What GZ claims is NOT possible.
What’s important to note is that there was a gap between the two, and someone closed that gap. Either an unarmed, scared teen who had just run away from a menacing car closed the gap WHILE talking on the phone to his girlfriend, or else the lying pursuer, a known hothead with issues aplenty is the one who closed the gap. Both are possible. One seems a lot more likely than the other.
GZ tried to present a narrative where he was not in pursuit. He lied about the actions near the clubhouse and his story about walking to RVC to get an address is told inconsistently and with contradictions and is ultimately self-serving to a degree that strains credulity. However in his own way he does “stick to his story” somewhat well on this matter. The difficulty is that his characterization of “returning to his vehicle” is essentially a moot point. I myself may be “returning to Capistrano” with the swallows but unless and until I get there, I’m also just as likely in the process of hunting for unarmed teenagers to shoot. George was only “returning to his vehicle” in his own mind, after that fact if you factor in his credibility and motive to tell a false narrative. He’s got zero proof that he was doing anything other than continuing to hunt the teenager in contravention to NW rules, common sense and the advice of the NEN operator. He chased the kid with his car, got out of his car when the kid ran off the roadway, and ran/walked after the kid which he fully admitted to. Then, after a lull of some kind he FOUND the youth, engaged in a struggle and shot the youth.
His own lies to investigators are going to sink his chances convincing a jury that his self defense tale is credible. I think the prosecution[s best chance is to present the material in such a fashion that each jury member can have their own private theory about what really happened, but not need to convince the other jurors that his or her own version is the truth. They just need to agree that George’s version is a lie in order to vote to convict.
And that’s why I feel we can all speculate until the cows come home but one guess is as good as another until we have more data.
I agree, we don’t know. What I wanted to point out that there is no evidence that there was a south north chase. And there is some evidence there was a north south chase. We can’t exclude the posibillity that Trayvon didn’t go south.
His written statement was the first one. I find it interesting that the Taaffe story is not in it.
GZ introduced the Trayvon disappearing, reappearing, circling the car in this statement.
I find that very interesting. We know he never mentions this part in the nen. We also know that it was impossible timewise to have happened. It doesn’t really serve a purpose. So why is it in his story?
I think the first description of Trayvon disappearing is GZ’s addaptation of Trayvon running away during the nen call. GZ said he didn’t know where he went and he leaves out that he got out of the car and followed him.
The second time is GZ’s narrative of seeing Trayvon again, but this time he sees him going between the houses and follows him there. That is one of the reasons I believe GZ followed Trayvon from the northern t.
There IS evidence of a South to North chase. LLMPapa video summary:
To conclude Trayvon went North, we have to believe GZ was intentionally trying to deceive NEN operator Sean, just a moment after reporting with surprise “He’s running.”
—
I would also like to note that while many people have speculated Trayvon hid quickly after heading down the T, and may not have gotten further South than John’s backyard, I highly doubt this was the case, for four reasons.
a. It doesn’t account for the pursuit taking as long as it did.
b. Trayvon would have to be really stupid to hide in one of the little partly fenced back yards, as he could easily be flushed or cornered there with no path of escape.
c. DeeDee indicates he ran far enough to be winded.
d. DeeDee says Trayvon said ‘He thought he lost the man,’ a very non-specific way to put things.
Not that a kid being chased by a stranger is necessarily logical, but the logical thing for Trayvon to do was to run to the end of the first building on the West side of the dogwalk, and duck into the space between it and the building to the South. There he could afford to turn around and see if Zimmerman was following. By the time he would have gotten to that hiding spot, turned and peeked around the corner, GZ could have already ran past the T heading on over to RVC. So Trayvon sees no one coming after him, but he doesn’t see where GZ is or where he went. He just knows he’s not being followed at that point.
On the other hand, had he hid behind one of the little white fences up by John’s place, when he turned around and peeked to see if he was being followed you’d think he would have seen/heard GZ running down the cut-through sidewalk, and, one would assume, have given DeeDee a more precise description, e.g. “I lost him. He went over to the other street.” He wouldn’t THINK GZ was off the trail, he would KNOW.
yes a south north path is possible, but there is no evidence for that that we know of.
If you listen to the recording of w1 she draws the houses after she drew the figures. But if you listen to what she actually saw it is clear she was watching at the same time John came outside.
W1: Okay. So, I was making dinner,
Serino: Uh huh.
W1: and I heard a noise, it
was a screaming noise, and I thought
it was kids playing in the back like they
normally do. It sounded like somebody
saying either, “No” or um something like
“Uh” and um they were running in the
back and I came to my glass sliding
door’s window. I peeped out and I
couldn’t really see back there because
there wasn’t a lot of lights on back there.
All I saw was arms flailing. I’m thinking it’s
kids out there that’s rough housing,
playing around. At the same time I
peeked out,my neighbor across the
street, where the incident occurred on
his lawn, he came out on his porch
and he was like, “Yo, what’s going on
out there? What’s going on? I’m going
to call 911”
W2 heard running south of her house 15 seconds before she heard the shot.
Batchelor: From the time you heard, as you described in your statement, the running…
W2: Uh huh.
Batchelor: from that moment to the ‘pop’…?
W2: Shot?
Batchelor: how long? In your estimate?
W2: 15 seconds. From the time it takes me to walk from one end of the house to the other. Maybe 15 seconds. So it would be like the length of this down here.
We know w11 called 45 seconds before the shot and w3 15 seconds before the shot.
Austin however was south of w2’s house around the time she heard the running.
Austin was walking his dog at the front of the houses, he went through the gap between the houses south of w2. He heard someone calling for help, and started walking north on the dog path towards the T and w2′s house. While on his way north, his dog got off the leash and ran south. Austin ran after his dog, got his leash and just started walking back north, when he heard the shot.
The drawing of the crime scene says it is not to scale.
Here is the photo of the evidence trail. Tag 6 is where the head of the body was located, the feet were pointed towards the house. The phone is east of where Trayvons feet were.
Trayvon told DD, he was right by his dad’s house, after he thought he’d lost GZ and before GZ was following him again. He said that in response to her urging to keep running after he’d gone from running to walking. She followed that statement with her thoughts that he wasn’t going to run because he was tired. We don’t know what Trayvon thought of as being right near his dad’s house.
I sure don’t hope the prosecution will use this line of evidence, because it is one of the few things that can easily disproved by the defense.
I think I see what you are saying, Amsterdam. If his written statement was his first testimony recorded by SPD investigators then we are left to wonder why he included the doubled back / circled the vehicle tale. It’s clear it never happened and it’s also possible that GZ said off the record that words were exchanged as the youth pAssed the car, since Tracy Martin got that impression from visiting the cop shop himself early in the investigation. So much we just don’t know.
But speculating that GZ used partial truths in inventing his false narrative, we can guess that he threw in the doubled back / circle the vehicle as part of his transposing of actions between his own aggressive movements and those of the teen. Perhaps GZ PASSED the youth on TTL when he moved from corner to cutthru and this is where the “doubling back” concept came from.
Imagine how threatened the kid would have felt then.
“these axxholes, they always get away” followed by reversing his car to a point where he once again faced the teen out his windshield, and Trayvon didn’t stop walking or begin running until he’d stared him in the eyes. I can imagine GZ becoming enraged by this but remaining “calm” on the phone.
It’s not my “most likely” scenario but it’s certainly possible given the timing.
GZ doesn’t make stuff up from scratch, he embellishes on previous experiences. In his first written interview he has Trayvon disappearing in the darkness of the sidewalk, reappear from somewhere again, walks around his car and then goes onto the dog walk.
in the first interview with Singleton he sees Trayvon ducking between two houses from his parking spot at the clubhouse, he then drives to the cut-through when Trayvon appears from somehere to circle his car before disappearing in the dog walk.
In the video reenactment, when they are parked in front of the clubhouse, he sees Trayvon turning right on TTL, and because Sean wants to know where he went, he drives down TTL parks in front of the cut-through and sees Trayvon going onto the dog walk.
When he is questioned or confronted with reality, he uses the same elements just changes the order and the time line.
I think GZ wants to believe in his own bullshit so he sticks to some of the base elements.
I think these are the base elements in GZ’s mind. Trayvon disappears somewhere near the cut-through. Trayvon reappears somewhere near the cut-through. Trayvon disappears onto the dog walk. Trayvon “confronts” GZ on the dog walk.
Excellent post Willis.
Thanks. I’m clearly standing on the shoulders of others’ excellent work however.
I hope there is consensus on much of what I wrote. There seems to be…
It was an attempt to summarize what the group mostly agrees upon. Sadly I dont feel it’s a summary of how the prosecution will present their case.
Another strategy they might employ at trial would be to delierately exclude ALL of GZ’s statements to SPD investigators in order to force GZ to take the stand in his own defense, exposing himself to cross examination at which time all that material could then be raised as rebuttal to his court testimony.
@ Willis
Wrote in part:
Another strategy they might employ at trial would be to delierately exclude ALL of GZ’s statements to SPD investigators in order to force GZ to take the stand in his own defense, exposing himself to cross examination at which time all that material could then be raised as rebuttal to his court testimony.
Hmmm, interesting strategy. But what if he doesn’t take the stand, and they already excluded his statements, what happens then? Not familar with court proceedings.
Not familiar with court stuff either, but it would be mind boggling to me to think that the jury would have to wade through the various inconsistent statements or be left without an explanation coming directly from the horse’s mouth in court. In any case, how many figurative little toes would we be willing to sacrifice to see him squirm up on the stand?
Agreed. I would think that the jury would want to listen to him directly then trying to figure out all of the inconsistent statments. I tend to lean on the side that jurors do take their duty seriously. I am trying to imagine what he is thinking right now. Does he take the stand? He seems to think he is confident enough to do so. OTH, time has passed, and more details and information has come to light. Does he take that into consideration? What about the failed Hannity interview? What about the fund, that is now dried up? What about his brother doing more damage then good in his lawyers eyes and his? Does he or doesn’t he? I wonder.
I think he does. He believes that he’s eligible for an acquittal, meaning that he believes that no one is able to see through his lies, so why should he stop now? He’ll simply explain to the jurors that all the discrepancies were due to his shock and horror, which made him unable to think clearly and presto, they’ll all rally to the side of poor George.
Trayvon was so happy that he was being followed by a crazy dude with malice and anger in his eyes, that he went skipping along in the dark rain. Meanwhile George had no need to identify himself, after all he was white and Trayvon was black, so it should have been clear who had the real authority and rights. But no, Trayvon used his magical powers to open wounds on GZ’s head, without getting any blood on his hands, then transported them both some 40 feet south of the T where it all started. GZ realized right then that if he didn’t shoot, TM would have turned him into a toad.
Clearly the jurors will see that GZ was so confused by the events of that night, that he could not even state that he didn’t remember, his own conflicting testimonies at the appropriate times, and he lied at the bond hearings because he was angry that the police were giving him the shaft, by going back on their promises to not file charges.
Yep, this is sure to win over the jury to have mercy on poor George for all the travesties he’s clearly suffered, like having to move tens of thousands of dollars away from the claws of the court. What a terrible injustice, eh? I’m sure you’re all weeping bitter tears for him.
Regarding the fact that we cannot see lights from GZ’s truck in the sec vids after he parks facing the mailboxes:
There are two ways to turn a vehicle around.
Trying to make a U-turn on a narrow street in a vehicle with a wide turning radius (e.g. a large SUV) generally requires at least three moves. You go forward with your steering wheel turned all the way to the left, but then you have to stop when you run out of street and are about to hit the curb (or a parked car). So you put the vehicle in reverse, turn the steering wheel all the way to the right, and back up to 6-10 feet… then turn the wheels back to the left and pull forward again, hopefully clearing the opposite side of the street this time.
The alternative is to make a ‘Y-turn’ which only requires two moves. You again turn the steering wheel to the left, but you pull backward instead of forward. So at the end of this first move, the rear of your vehicle is up against the obstacle on the other side, and your vehicle is more or less perpendicular to the line of travel. Then you turn your wheels all the way to the right and pull forward.
If GZ did make a Y-turn, we never would have seen his headlights, because they would not have been facing the camera by the time they cleared the blown-out area created by the floodlight on the pool wall. And if he made a Y-turn, he would have come out of it going forward on the wrong side of the street, which is the direction he said he finally parked. (Again, I think he told the truth about the end position of the vehicle because he would have assumed the police already noted it, given that he tried to describe it’s location to Sean not just once, but twice during the NEN call).
Yes, that was my first idea too. Both are possible. I am just wondering about his abillity to see into the cut-through. If he parked his car facing east, those headlights should have given him a good view of the cut-through.
I agree about the location of the car. It doesn’t make sense to lie about that. But we can’t exclude it as a possibility. I couldn’t believe GZ’s stupid scheme with the money and the passport either. He is just not that smart.
@whonoze
I don’t think DD is vague.
Dee Dee: No, he say he lost the guy…
BDLR: OK.
Dee Dee: And then he ran from the back…
BDLR: Right.
Dee Dee: He say he lost him.
BDLR: OK.
Dee Dee: He started walking back again…and I told him ‘Keep runnin’.’
BDLR: So Trayvon said he started walking because he thought he had lost the guy.
Dee Dee: Yeah.
BDLR: OK.
Dee Dee: I say, ‘Keep runnin’.’
BDLR: OK.
Dee Dee: He say he ain’t goin’ run, cause he say he right by his father house…
BDLR: OK.
Dee Dee: So, and in a couple minutes…he say the man followin’ him again, behin’ him. And I
say, ‘RUN!’ You goin’ to run? He say he not goin’ run cause…I could have known he not going
to run, cause he out of breath. and then, he told me, he say this guy getting’ close to him. I told
him ‘RUN!’ And then, and then… I tol’ him ‘Keep runnin’.’ He not goin’ run. And then he
say…I told him, ‘Why you not runnin’? He say, ‘I’m not go’ run,’ cause he tired, but I know he
tired.
BDLR: I’m sorry…Trayvon said he’s not running because…he’s not going to run he
said…because you could tell he was tired?
Dee Dee: Yeah.
11BDLR: Well, how could you tell he was tired?
Dee Dee: He was breathin’ hard.
BDLR: OK, real hard?
Dee Dee: Real hard.
In that entire sequence Trayvon is moving. Maybe if BdlR had asked her, she would’ve added a stop. But we don’t know that. I think she has been pretty accurate in what we can check, so I have no reason to disregard her statements.
Time wise your path may work, but I think if Trayvon was hiding in the most northern gap, while GZ was tapping his flaslight on RVC, and talking to Sean while walking south on RVC, Trayvon would’ve heard him. And why would he have stayed on the dog walk, instead of going through one of the gaps to RVC or TTL?
So it may be possible, it just doesn’t make sense to me.
The Y turn makes sense to me, especially if his headlights were off at the moment. But again it’s possible he just backed his car up. The final “according to George” position stopped his movements before the road curves, thus aligning his headlamps (or backup lights) with the cut thru. If he was driving forward and started to make the bend, he would have been closer to the teen he was shadowing but at the same time his headlamps (if on) would have swung away.
None of this proves much but they do seem to be factors worth considering.
A U-turn or a Y turn would seem to expose his tail lights/ brake lights to the camera however which is why my hunch is that he drove in reverse down TTL for a short bit, stopping before the curve because he didnt care to negotiate it in his haste to continue his pursuit.
He parks and opens the door very quickly, but the footstep / breathing sounds take eight or ten seconds to begin as he gathers flashlight, removes keys etc. It’s this time that makes me think GZ missed the turn made by TM and this is why he went on towards RVC.
In the adjusted ‘security cameras with audio’ vid I’m working on there’s a little mini light event around the snow-man’s head corresponding pretty closely to the whoosh sound I’ve taken to be GZ turning the steering wheel. Could be his back-up lights on a Y turn.
GZ couldn’t have missed the turn, because he clearly has an idea where TM is going, and he can only have that idea if he sees TM turn to the South.
Sean: Which way is he running?
Z: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.
Sean: Which entrance is that that he’s heading towards?
Z: The back entrance.
So I think GZ goes to RVC not because he misses TM head down the dogwalk, but because Trayvon has so big a head start GZ knows that following him directly will be futile, and his ony hope is to cut him off. Besides, even if his top priority is to catch “the asshole” his second priority would be to find out whether the “suspect” has left the neighborhood, or is still lurking around as a threat. To have an idea about that, he would want to get a view of the back gate. If he sees the “suspect” go out the gate, he’s missed his quarry but he knows the neighborhood is safe, and can claim to have scared off another burglar before a crime was committed just as he had supposedly done at Taaffe’s. If he DOESN’T see the asshole leave, he thinks the neighborhood is still at risk, and the game is still on.
What a careful consideration of the timing and geography has led me too is the conclusion that GZ wasn’t really following TM by foot during ‘phase one’ of the pursuit. That is, GZ had already lost eye contact with TM by the time he left his truck. The following-by-eye-contact down TTL all occured, as willis has always said, while GZ was in the truck, moving it from the West end of the upper horizontal leg of TTL to the East end, closer to the cut-through sidewalk. It’s more accurate to describe the first part of his foot pursuit (while he’s running), as _trying_ to follow TM or looking for TM.
Trying to cut off Trayvon would be the most logical reason for GZ to go straight to RVC, whether he saw Trayvon going south or not. I do think he expected to see Trayvon running towards the back entrance. I think we agree that when GZ stopped running he was on RVC.
I don’t have a problem with Trayvon going south on the dog walk, I just haven’t found a solid explanation how he got back to the spot where he was killed, with GZ following him there.
If he went south, he must have stopped for a while. DD gives no indication that he did. Trayvon must have started walking in the opposite direction, she doesn’t mention that. When Trayvon mentions seeing GZ again, he says he is following me again, so GZ is behind him. DD also said GZ was gaining on Trayvon, so GZ was moving faster than Trayvon and was at some distance from Trayvon when Trayvon saw him again.
But let’s assume Trayvon went south on the dog walk and he hid for a while. I don’t think he was hiding behind one of the white fences in the first block. Besides the fact that somebody probably would’ve heard him talking, I think he would’ve seen GZ’s flashlight at some distance, if GZ was south of him. Trayvon would’ve been back on the cut-through before GZ would’ve caught up with him.
Suppose Trayvon was hiding in one of the gaps between the houses further south. If Trayvon were caught by surprise, I think the confrontation would’ve taken place right there, or he would’ve needed to run to get enough distance between him and GZ and I think DD’s recollection of the final encounter would’ve been different.
If Trayvon noticed GZ approaching the gap, he would’ve had enough time to go either to the dog walk if GZ was on RVC or to RVC if GZ was on the dog walk. Either way, it wouldn’t make sense to keep moving in the middle of the street or in the middle of the dog walk.
But say Trayvon noticed GZ had found him and was walking towards him, and Trayvon started walking north on the dog walk, why would he turn around at that point and ask why GZ was following him, instead of on the cut-through, where there is more light and more traffic?
I’ve been trying out every possible hiding place on that dog walk with GZ appearing from all directions, and I can’t find one that would lead to that spot where the altercation took place.
It’s certainly a mystery. I wonder if there wasn’t some foot-to-foot chasing that happened in a manner where both parties tried to pretend they were not openly fleeing and pursuing one another. Regardless of position or direction, both parties move about during the “missing minutes” as though minding their own business but the teen feints and “doubles back” at least once causing GZ to get frustrated. Sort of a two person baseball “hotbox” as it were that is like a silent movie comedy routine, starting out slow but building in intensity.
@willis,
Very likely there was some pretend all is normal for a while. But I think after all GZ’s weird behavior, once GZ was trying to catch up with Trayvon on the dog walk with his flashlight, pretense was over. Makes a lot of sense turning around and facing your pursuer rather than continuing on this very dark path with person closing in on you.
That is why I think, they came down from the north. Where they were before that is anyones guess.
In order to match movements with the passage of time, I think TM must have gone South a ways when he ran from GZ, then walked back North in order to wind up at the site of the shooting. The only explanation I have ever been able to think of as to why TM would reverse field and head North is that GZ had gotten to the South of him somehow and he was trying to evade Zimmerman — lead him away from the house so GZ wouldn’t learn where he (and Chad) lived. According to Taaffe, the T is the darkest area of the complex at night. Apparently, there’s no street light at that sidewalk intersection and to the extent the dogwalk itself is illuminated it comes from the porch lights of the homes (??). In any event, my assumption is that Trayvon was refusing to run, as he’d basically had enough of this BS, and GZ was hustling to catch up to him, and the point where Trayvon turned to ask GZ why he was following was not marked by the context of place, but the by the fact he heard GZ coming up on him — at which point he’s certainly not going to keep his back turned.
So he turns, asks his question, and GZ never really stops moving altogether, until he gets up in the young man’s face for his reply. That’s how I’ve always seen it: the pushing and shoving starting becuase GZ violates TM’s personal space.
DeeDee is, of course, extraordinarily vague (except when it comes to reminding her questioners that Trayvon had his hoodie on). If Trayvon did reverse direction, it would have happened during that “couple minutes later” ellipsis DeeDee mentions and BdlR gob-smacking fails to ask details about:
BDLR: So Trayvon said he started walking because he thought he had lost the guy.
Dee Dee: Yeah.
BDLR: OK.
Dee Dee: I say, ‘Keep runnin’.’
BDLR: OK.
Dee Dee: He say he ain’t goin’ run, cause he say he right by his father house…
BDLR: OK.
Dee Dee: So, and in a couple minutes…he say the man followin’ him again, behin’ him. And I say, ‘RUN!’ You goin’ to run? He say he not goin’ run … and then, he told me, he say this guy getting’ close to him. I told him ‘RUN!’ And then, and then… I tol’ him ‘Keep runnin’.’ He not goin’ run…
…
Dee Dee: And then he told me like the guy was getting close..like..and he told me the guy was getting real close to him. The next I hear, “What are you following me for?”
“I’ve been trying out every possible hiding place on that dog walk with GZ appearing from all directions, and I can’t find one that would lead to that spot where the altercation took place.”
Say TM was hiding in the Northern-most gap between the buildings facing TTL. He looks see the coast is clear, and begins walking toward the Green home. He gets as far the the gap just North of the building in which the Green home is located, when he sees GZ emerge from the other end of that building — coming over from RVC on the lower leg of TTL. TM turns and starts walking North toward the T. He either doesn’t tell DeeDee he has turned or she hasn’t bothered to mention it to BdlR. GZ hustles after TM catching up to him in the vicinity of John’s backyard.
Austin comes out to late to see the pursuit and only sees the start of the fight before his dog gets away. W11 is lying. The evidence objects North of the body were dropped by GZ as after he got up from the body and walked to the T, as observed by W18.
I don’t see as problem with that scenario…
@Amsterdam
Wrote:
I don’t have a problem with Trayvon going south on the dog walk, I just haven’t found a solid explanation how he got back to the spot where he was killed, with GZ following him there.
I have been racking my brain on this as well. I think the problem we have is the “T”. By Gz saying that this is where the fight started, throws everything off. JMO
Ams wrote:
When Trayvon mentions seeing GZ again, he says he is following me again, so GZ is behind him. DD also said GZ was gaining on Trayvon, so GZ was moving faster than Trayvon and was at some distance from Trayvon when Trayvon saw him again.
Yes, I agree. He was ahead of him. IMO
I think what DeeDee and Trayvon meant by “he is behind me again”, is that he had seen what GZ looked like from the car when he was following him in with his car. Then again by foot. I think there was two separate incidents of following on foot. jmo again.
Ams wrote:
But let’s assume Trayvon went south on the dog walk and he hid for a while. I don’t think he was hiding behind one of the white fences in the first block.
I agree with you, he was not hiding. I got that from the horse’s mouth. GZ said in his audio interview with Singleton.
Taken from
on page 13 of 538
Click to access 12-3198_Appendix.pdf
GZ: So, I was walking back through to where my car was and he
jumped out from the bushes and he said, “What the fuck’s your problem, homey?”
and I got my cell phone out to call 911 this time.
Noted. He got out his cell phone. Then later on he changed that.
Same page:
Gz: I, it was dark. I didn’t even see him getting ready to punch me. As soon as
he punched me, I fell backwards, um, into the grass and he grabbed me.
On Page 17..
Paraphrasing a little.
He says that Trayvon went through this dog walk here. We can’t see the diagram he
drew for Singleton. But what I find interesting is he says that the dogwalk can be used
to go through to RVC or between the back of the houses. He knew if he went down RVC he could possibly cut him off at the next opening of houses along RVC and be back on the dogpath.
Picture this, GZ sees Trayvon going down the dogpath not running, walking towards Brandy’s house which would coincide with the back gate. He knows he can cut him off by Witness 19 house. The reason I find this plausible, and correct me or give me your thoughts is what he says on page 19.
GZ: And then when I walked back towards him, I, I saw him coming at me
and I went to grab my phone. I don’t remember if I had time to pull it out or not.
A couple of minutes ago he said he jumped out of some bushes. He says he WALKED BACK TOWARDS him. I thought he was hiding George?
A couple of minutes ago he didn’t see the punch coming. If you listen to the audio version of this transcript. You can hear that he realized his faux pas.
This makes logical sense to me because if he cuts him off by Witness 19 house and Trayvon is thinking, Oh shit, here is that creepy guy again and does an about face and goes the opposite direction away from his home because he is again blocking his path to Brandy’s. Avoiding confrontation again he and starts picking up pace toward the “T” Witness 1 and 2 see the chase, hear Yo or No. I tend to believe the Yo part. Then the confrontation starts. Why are you following me? What are you doing around here. The LLMpapa video made me think about this because of where the phone and flashlight ended up at.
You guys can figure out the timing of all that. I have no idea how to do that. Does it makes sense?
@blushedbrown,
The problem is the timing. Trayvon started running about where GZ parked his car at 7:11:40. GZ got of the phone at 7:13:43. If Trayvon had continued on his path, either running or walking, he would’ve been home by the time GZ ended his call.
W1 looked out of her window and saw them on the ground in front of John’s house, right when John came out and said he was calling 911. She never saw them south of her house.
W2 heard and saw the yelling about 15 sec before the gun shot. We know they were already on the ground in front of John’s house much longer than that.
W2 must have seen Austin who was at that spot at that time, and was running after his dog.
For the dog path hypothesis to work, there must be a hiding period and Trayvon must have reversed direction and stayed on the dog walk from close to BG’s house to where he was killed, with GZ in hot pursuit.
@Whonoze,
Just got back in from an appt.
Regarding timing:
Whonoze wrote:
Trayvon started running about where GZ parked his car at 7:11:40.
Why should we believe GZ? Just because he says that he is running doesn’t make it so. Just sayin…
I am not familar with walking time and distance. I will make a point of making myself familar so I can include it in my posts, you have me at a disadvantage, sir. 🙂
Regarding hiding:
Maybe GZ was the one hiding?
As soon as I familarize myself with the “timings”, I will post something a little more coherently. 🙂
Do you have a timecode mark for that “whoosh” snowman / potential y turn light event? I think I see what you mean but wish to corroborate.
The Serino reports are released. http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/0113/10th_discovery_documents.pdf
Haven’t read them yet.
@ blushedbrown
“Why should we believe GZ? Just because he says that he is running doesn’t make it so.”
We are not talking about one of his statements to police. We are talking about what he describes to Sean in the moment it happens. GZ is talking to Sean about something else, when he interrupts himself to say, “Shit, he’s running.” This would be one hell of a lie to execute. Moreover DeeDee’s statement corroborates GZ: ‘Trayvon said he was gonna run from the back.’ Then she says he DID run, and ran long enough to get winded.
Zimmerman also said during his NEN call:
[he’s wearing] A dark hoodie,
He’s here now
Now he’s just staring at me.
[He’s near the clubhouse]
Now he’s coming towards me.
He’s got his hand in his waistband. And he’s a black male.
He’s got button on his shirt, late teens.
He’s got something in his hands,
All of which were true, though GZ spun them all into a sinister frame. He’s not making up what he sees and reports in the moment, he’s just adding interpretations:
This guy looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something.
Somethings wrong with him.
I don’t know what his deal is.
“Shit! He’s running!” fits the former, not the later.
@whonoze I am glad to read your new posts. Oh yes, a combination of GZ 311 call and the clubhouse video timeline would be very interesting.
I do believe that every word GZ told in his NEN call is true for the simple reason that he didn’t know at this point that something very bad would happen. So Trayvon did in fact check him out. But this was a natural move from Trayvon, nothing wrong with it. GZ got scared though. That’s why he rushed his call for officers. I believe also that Trayvon’s move was in fact what GZ later described a circling of his car. And as noticed previously, his call becomes very understandable if we imagine with GZ parked on TTL facing west at the begin his call.
But, something (among many others!) is puzzling me. GZ had in fact very short time to balance his new story. By that, i mean first to decide which parts to change. Then to figure out a credible story. He didn’t have much time for himself before his interview with Singleton. This few time must had be devoted to the crucial part of the event, which is the confrontation.
amsterdam1 wrote “GZ is not very creative, he uses real events and changes them to suit his narrative” Well, isn’t the best way to lie? I think every occasional liar (like me!) would agree.
To me, your scenario of GZ thoughts and moves after he got out of his car is by far the most convincing (for the TM team of course!). It is almost supported by the witness who said hear two people running in the back alley. Too bad, she said later that it might be only one person.
amsterdam1 wrote ” I do think GZ expected to see Trayvon running towards the back entrance” I strongly disagree with this. GZ was sure that Trayvon was a outsider and then he would flee East. That means pass over RVC almost certainly.
@amsterdam1 You (and others) made very good remarks. I appreciate that all assumptions are scrutinized. This is different from other blogs. You wrote “We can’t exclude the possibillity that Trayvon did not go south” It is possible but it is almost sure, from a witness, that somebody came from south. So the possibility that Trayvon went South to North by himself is still open. This why DeeDee’s account is so important. Many commentators simply assert that Trayvon would never have done that. This is not a proof!
whonoze wrote “DeeDee is, of course, extraordinarily vague” I can’t agree more. When we learned about her existence, we all thought that GZ was cooked. You can imagine how disappointed i was when i read her testimony. She is saying almost nothing about the long 3 or 4 minutes when Trayvon was out of GZ’s sight and the most important why Trayvon didn’t go in his house. I am not saying that Trayvon had to. I am only saying that DeeDee must know why he didn’t.
The dogwalk would be the natural path for a ‘suspect’ heading for the SouthEast gate, as it’s darker at night than either of the streets.
GZ said “The guy is running toward the back entrance” To exit by this entrance, no choice to cross over RVC.
re: TM needing to crossing RVC to exit the complex
Eventually, yes he would cross RVC somewhere. But it’s possible that GZ was speaking in “car terms” meaning that if he saw TM running EAST on TTL that he could have assumed that since TTL eventually “feeds down” to the back entrance, the “suspicious person” was going towards the back entrance.
The plain fact of the matter is, we just don’t know exactly what GZ saw and why he described it in that manner, and there are many potential interpretations. What is interesting about the comment to Sean the 311 dispatcher is that GZ ASSUMED the “suspect” (aka unarmed resident) was fleeing the scene out of a sense of guilt. That is more or less proof that GZ was ALREADY profiling the teenager, as the prosecution will likely contend at trial.
Imagine a different universe where GZ answered, “he’s running towards his dad’s apartment!” for comparison’s sake.
I love LLMpapa’s video’s, but he was wrong about evidence that there was a south north chase. That doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, but there is no evidence.
W2 who saw a person running south of her house, said that happened approx. 15 sec before she heard the shot.
Batchelor: From the time you heard, as you described in your statement, the running…
W2: Uh huh.
Batchelor: from that moment to the ‘pop’…?
W2: Shot?
Batchelor: how long? In your estimate?
W2: 15 seconds. From the time it takes me to walk from one end of the house to the other. Maybe 15 seconds. So it would be like the length of this down here.
15 seconds before the shot, all eyewitnesses had them on the ground in front of W6’s house.
W14, Austin however was running after his dog around that time, south of w2’s house.
Don’t take my word, check Screamin Jay’s transcript https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zb8PjHr4dcR6Jav-DW_fuda2lOnwv3VfgG_fIIZ1tB0/mobilebasic
I don’t put too much stock in anyone’s sense of time during crisis events, or their memories of time durations after, say, a gunshot goes off killing a teenager in their backyard. Minutes can seem like seconds and vice versa.
They do well when they can measure it with actions they were performing at the time. Anyway the defense will make the argument and it may create doubt in the jury’s mind about the veracity of the peosecution’s claims.
Oups I forgot about those 15 sec. So it’s true, beside DeeDee’s account, nothing can validate the South-North path.
DeeDee’s statements don’t necessarily support Trayvon going south. I think they don’t. Again we don’t know where Trayvon went. We are all speculating.
Some parts suggest that. Dee Dee said Trayvon was “right by his father house” and a couple minutes later Trayvon said “the man followin’ him again, behin’ him”
It’s the “behin’ him” that makes me say that GZ showed up from South. Because logically Trayvon was probably mainly looking North during those couple minutes.
@ada4750
What I was trying to do was to distill from GZ’s lies, how GZ found Trayvon again and started following him to the location where the altercation began, by going back to GZ’s very first written statement. Each subsequent statement GZ makes alterations when he is confronted with reality.
This is basicly GZ’s first story.
He describes Trayvon disappearing somewhere around the cut-through, but he can’t tell the direction.
Trayvon appears again somehere from the area around the cut-through and circles GZ’s car and goes back into the cut-through again, but this time GZ sees him turning right onto the dog walk. Now GZ gets out of his car to get an address for Sean.
On his way back to his car, Trayvon suddenly appears at the T and confronts GZ.
We know that sequence of events is impossible, because we have GZ’s nen call. GZ only mentions Trayvon disappearing once during the call, and he claims the one we hear him talking about in the nen call, was the second one. Trayvon could not have traveled the distance GZ claims during the nen call.
So either GZ made that up completely or he altered the time line when these events took place.
What I am suggesting, considering that we know GZ’s proclivity to alter real events that the first time Trayvon disappeared, is the one we hear GZ reporting in the nen call and that he didn’t stay in his car, but got out and ran towards RVC.
I think it is possible that GZ seeing Trayvon appearing from somewhere near the cut-through, circling his car and then going in between the houses, may be an altered version of what happened after the nen call ended. I think the circling is made up out of whole cloth.
Trayvon ran somewhere in an attempt to lose GZ. GZ may have decided to go get his car, to start looking for Trayvon.
Trayvon thought he had lost GZ and was walking back towards his home again, and entered the cut-through and was walking in the direction of the dog walk. GZ spots Trayvon and follows him in between the houses.
Trayvon thinks it is better to turn around and face his pursuer, and ask him why he is following him. GZ translates that as Trayvon without reason suddenly confronting him.
I am speculating here of course, but until I see real evidence that Trayvon went south on the dog path when he was running away from GZ, I think it is as likely that Trayvon in his attempt to lose GZ, may have run in another direction away from his home, and that he was walking back after he thought he had lost him.
And for the record, it doesn’t make a difference if GZ followed Trayvon south north or north south. Trayvon was killed 40 ft south of the T. GZ had no reason to be on the dog walk other than that he’d followed Trayvon there. I’d rather have the prosecution stress that point, than try to proof a south north chase with evidence that can be demolished by the defense. The defence has very little to make their case, the prosecution shouldn’t use something that could make their narrative wobbly.
How the prosecution will explain the presence of Trayvon near the T intersection? Some witness are quite affirmative when they say the confrontation started there. To break the self-defense claim, they have to prove that GZ pursued him back there.
Boy i misread amsterdam1 about the GZ and the back entrance. Or maybe it was somebody else.
Regarding the possible prosecution strategy of not introducing GZ’s statements to SPD at all until the defense brings them in: I am not a lawyer but it does seem to make a certain amount of sense to me.
By presenting the case for Murder 2 as the following, the prosecution forces GZ to either take the stand in his own defense or at the least to bring in his (inconsistent, provably false) statements as so called exhibits or evidence for the defense. At that time, (the prosecution presents its’ case first) the prosecution can call these statements to SPD into question by bringing the investigators in to testify as rebuttal witness, I think. Or, if GZ takes the stand himself and tells the same basic story, the prosecution can cross-examine him directly.
Either way the case for M2 is presented much as the special prosecutor has outlined: A dead child was found next to the man who admitted he shot him, and the bullet inside the youth matches the gun in the shooter’s possession. Witnesses saw a foot chase, and the NEN call recording shows the teen was profiled and pursued. Forensic evidence shows he was shot by a man who has no serious injuries, and whom witness on the scene heard admit he killed the teen. The mother of the dead, unarmed teen will testify that the voice heard on the 911 call is that of her son, calling repeatedly for help. Various forensic “points” can be scored about the lack of blood or DNA on the teen’s hands, etc etc. Then, the prosecution rests its’ case, and somehow the defense must introduce reasonable doubt into this argument. How can they do so without putting GZ on the stand or introducing his statements to the SPD investigators?
They can introduce GZ’s dad to say that the voice is George’s, calling for help, but the idea that he is calling for help because of being attacked is hearsay (inadmissible) when the dad tells it. The defense could try to get JonW13 to relate his story that the shooter said he had to shoot, etc, but I’m not sure what else they could bring in. Perhaps ofc. Tim Smith could be compelled to testify what he was told, but I’m not sure that would stand up to cross-examination or not.
It seems the EMT people may not have heard GZ’s story at all. This matter is unclear at present, I’d say. And, whatever they heard is hearsay as well.
It’s true that most people on trial for murder do NOT take the stand, and this will be instructed to the jury that they cannot and should not be prejudiced by this fact alone, but it’s hard to say they can take it fully to heart in a high profile case like this, where most jurors will have heard some of the basic facts from the media already.
I think you are right. I know GZ supporters keep saying he doesn’t have to take the stand, but without GZ’s statements I don’t see how any of his narrative can be entered unless the prosecution enters it. I see no reason for the prosecution to do this. I am not a lawyer but it seems to me Smith recounting what GZ told him would be hearsay.
The testimony of ofc. Tim Smith might be allowed in court as “heat of the moment” statements coming so close to the event but that’s probably a question for a lawyer to answer…
As a biased layperson, I think GZ is deliberately beginning his false narrative from the moment he stood up from the dying teen’s body and turned away, not giving aid or even checking for a pulse.
But there are rules rearding hearsay and I’m not no expert but jon W13 was the first to hear GZ speak- and the person GZ called on his cell phone was the second person, assuming he reached someone or left a voicemail. Jon w13 seems to be the one who called Shellie. Who did GZ call (and why the heck don’t we have this info by now as discovery?!?)
“As a biased layperson, I think GZ is deliberately beginning his false narrative from the moment he stood up from the dying teen’s body and turned away, not giving aid or even checking for a pulse.”
I still can’t get over the discrepancy about that moment when GZ said he jumped on top of TM and spread his hands (hearing him say ‘ow ow’) and then asking the neighbor to help restrain TM. We always presumed this was cell phone Jon, yet Jon said he first saw GZ on the phone and approaching him up towards the T. GZ could lie about many things, but how can he lie about an interaction with a witness? Something doesn’t jive. Of course, Witness 18 saw the whole thing so, I think we need her to elaborate. And Selma (through a proper interpreter who’s not Mary.)
@wsi,
Selma was in the kitchen on her way to the door when she heard the gunshot. She must have been out there within seconds. She was the one with the clear view of GZ on top of Trayvon, and she tried to engage GZ. I think the story of him jumping on Trayvon was created to explain away Selma’s story. Selma is the strongest eyewitness for the prosecution, backed up by W18.
@amsterdam, someone really needs to do a recreation of what can be seen from W18 and selma’s points of view at night and what can be seen with JohnW6’s porchlight. While we know it was dark, and you can’t trust someones perception of color, I’m sure you can see light versus dark, and if you can see figures, you can see movement. Witness18 could see that a larger hispanic man get up but she didn’t report seeing a figure drop. She said she was looking right at them when the shot went off. It was as if they were both on the ground or GZ was on top but close to the ground, so all the witness could see was one person getting up. GZ also couldn’t explain in the re-enactment how he got out from underneath and on top of TM. While we believe w18’s account, I’m afraid that the defense will try to discredit her because of her crying on the 911 call.
@wsi,
Selma’s statement and w18’s reporting line up exactly. Shot was fired at 19:16:56. Selma’s kitchen is in the back and she and Mary started walking towards the sliding glass door, when the shot was fired. She must have been outside at 19:17:00.
W18 was connected with 911 at 19:17:06. She was looking out of her window and got her phone to call 911, before she heard the shot. She couldn’t see what they were wearing.
Selma sees GZ straddled over Trayvon while pushing on his back. She sees Trayvon’s foot moving. She asks him three times “what is going on”, GZ has his back towards her, but looks back at her and doesn’t answer. After the third time, he says “just call 911” and gets up and starts wandering back and forth while putting his hand on his forehead.
W18 on 911 call says at 19:17:42 “I can see the man now, he is walking. In her drawing she has GZ walking towards the little tree next to the doggy litter can. In her statements she said he bend over and put his hand on his forhead, the way someone would when peering in the distance. Then he walks back to the body.
At 19:17:48, w18 sees Jonathan with a flaslight walking in the cut-through towards the T.
At 19:19:07 Jonathan takes the picture of the back of GZ’s head.
At 19:19:28 w18 reports seeing Smith.
W3 was probably the first eyewitness. She was working in her office in the back of the top floor. She had her window open and the blinds down. She peeked through the blinds. They were on the ground right in front of the house adjacent to hers. She didn’t want to attract attention, so she moved to the bedroom in the front facing TTL, where she called 911.
She describes the person on top as wearing a white t-shirt on top. She called 911 at 19:16:41.
W19, W1 and John were all watching at the same time for about the same length of time. John said he went inside and was walking up the stairs while calling 911 when he heard the shot, he called 911 at 19:17:15.
W1 said she was cooking when she heard the screams, she walked over to the window, and saw arms moving in front of John’s house at the same time as John looked outsight and said he was calling 911. She turned around, walked back to her stove, started turning it off when she heard the shot.
W19 said she just came in from unloading the groceries from her car on RVC. She opened her sliding glass door, to go outside with her dog, when she heard the screaming. She heard John saying, he was calling 911. She immediately went back inside.
They timed W19 with all the things she said she did, before she heard the shot. It took about 60 seconds. Her timeline doesn’t match up with John’s and W1, and she wasn’t really sure exactly when she heard the shot.
John was watching tv on the TTL side of his house. I think he must have been out there after w3. I suspect around 19:17:40.
But they shouldn’t use the footchase unless they have evidence we haven’t seen yet. W2 probably saw Austin not Trayvon or GZ. The one thing that can easily be shown by the defense.
I think the question of “to use w2 or not to use W2” is going to depend on how the prosecution feels about what she would testify to at trial under oath an cross examination.
They can ask her point blank privately how she would testify if compelled to do so, and she’s likely going to give them a frank and
honest answer.
The prosecution has more or less boasted openly that they have witnesses to a foot chase. Either they are bluffing or they aren’t. Time will tell, but it’s a big bluff for the defense to try and call. If they lose it’s M2 probably.
It sounds crazy but a large part of me still thinks this ends w GZ pleading guilty in exchange for a promise of almost nothing from the prosecution up front. It’s his best chance for a slightly lighter sentencing to come clean, unless he’s planning deliberately to create conditions for a mistrial or hung jury – things that merely prolong an inevitable conviction.
Yep that does sound crazy 🙂 . GZ may know what he’s guilty of but I don’t think in a million years he will admit it. What’s more, I think he’s very capable of deluding himself about his innocence, and that delusion only gets grander the more he listens to his family and band of supporters.
Regarding W2 and what she says she saw: people who take the defense’s side, like Jeralyn Merritt at talkLeft blog like to say that W2 “recanted” her tale of seeing two people in a foot chase, south to north, but I don’t think that is the right wording to describe her “evolving” testimony.
I tend to think what will matter is what she tells a jury when being brought to the stand as a witness at trial. Yes, she can be cross-examined based on her later statements where she seemed to “back off” of what she said, but she may have been “backing off somewhat” out of fear due to the slow realization that she was a star witness in a murder case. Under oath, and at trial she’s going to have to consider her first version of what she told Chris Serino as her best chance at appearing credible. If the prosecution presents her recorded statements to Serino and asks her directly if she said those things, what can she do? Say it’s not her words? It would be unfortunate to have to treat her as almost a hostile witness, but so be it.
In her later statements, it’s worth noting she is not asked directly about how many persons she saw or glimpsed or heard – she’s merely asked to relate her story again, and she happens to tell it in a manner that mentions only one person. Which recollection is more likely to be accurate? The one closest to the event, when less media has been consumed, etc or a later one after the passage of time?
Once again I’d like to point out that the prosecution, in pre-trial hearings has said on multiple occasions that they have witnesses to a “foot chase” and they said it in manner that seems to indicate more then one witness. The ones we can assume they mean given what we know thus far seem to be “Dee Dee,” and W2. I’d hate to go to trial with these two as my only witnesses, but we can’t know if that’s the case or not.
What the prosecution has in its’ favor is that many things are possible, but what GZ told investigators is NOT possible in regards to many of his actions on the night in question. A self defense case such as this is all about credibility, and the defendant has none IMO.
My problem with W2 is the timing. She saw the running approx 15 seconds before she heard the shot. We know they were already on the ground struggling in front of John’s place. The defense is either going to argue it was Austin or they turn it around and claim it was Trayvon going back to the T to confront GZ.
Unless the prosecution has better evidence they should stay away from it.
If they don’t have evidence about what exactly happened during those lost minutes, stay with Trayvon ran somewhere for a long enough time to be out of breath, and when he’d thought he’d lost GZ, he went from running to walking back to his father’s house. That is what Deedee said.
I don’t understand why people think it is a better argument for Trayvon to have traveled back north to the T. I don’t believe it is. Unless their is undisputable evidence that GZ chased Trayvon north, it can be interpreted as Trayvon being the person looking to confront GZ.
This is the point i was doing just before. They have to explain the presence of Trayvon at the intersection to invalidate the possibility that he confront GZ.
Yes, so they better have very good evidence in case they go with the south north route.
I don’t think Trayvon went south. I came to that conclusion a long time ago. The length of time between the moment Trayvon ran and when he got into the altercation is 4 min. Deedee has him moving the entire time and he was so tired that when GZ started following him again, he was gaining on Trayvon, because Trayvon was to tired to stay ahead of him.
All that just doesn’t fit Trayvon running south on the dog walk.
Dee Dee: So he put his hoodie on. So I said, ‘What’s going on?’ He said this man is still
watching him. Like in a car…so he about to run from the back. So then I told him, go to his dad
house. Run to his Dad house.
BDLR: Go to what?
Dee Dee: Run to his dad house.
BDLR: To his dad’s house?
Dee Dee: Yeah.
BDLR: OK.
Dee Dee: So he say he about to run for the back cause its mo’ easier, he said. So, next thing I
hear, he gettin’ run. And I can hear that the wind blowin’…
DeeDee said ” Run to his Dad house” but Trayvon replies
he about to run for the back cause its mo’ easier.
Trayvon tells DeeDee he is not running to his dad’s house, he is going to run for the back.
I think Trayvon didn’t want to lead GZ straight to his home. His father and Brandy weren’t home, only Chad was there. I think he wanted to lose GZ before he went home, and I think he ran east or north towards RVC, crossed the street and moved behind the houses on the other side of RVC. When he thought he had lost GZ he crossed the street entered the cut-through on his way to the dog walk, when GZ saw him and followed him onto the dog walk.
That path would account for everything Deedee said and the time between Trayvon running and the beginning of the altercation.
I think that’s what the prosecution will do.
I interpret our collective project not as prepping a case for the prosecution, but trying to figure out what actually happened. Trayvon travelling North is a better argument in that context (not a trial context) because it makes more sense in terms of the clock. It’s a great leap from ‘Trayvon turned around’ to ‘Trayvon turned around to confront GZ.’. First of all, Trayvon would have had no idea GZ would appear at the T if he had indeed gone South. In contrast, had he been hiding near the T he could indeed have ‘sprung out of nowhere’ when GZ came walking back down the cut-through sidewalk. (Except, of course, GZ DIDN’T walk back on the cut-through sidewalk.)
Trayvon could have had any number of reasons to turn around, including even a simple desire to continue talking to DeeDee for awhile before going home to deal with Chad. You know, just wandering in the rain, looking at houses.
More importantly, the clock proves that if Trayvon did go South, turn around and head back North for whatever reason, GZ could not have been at the T unless he sat down there and waited ‘a couple minutes’. The Zimmietards say Trayvon had more than enough time to walk home. Well, from the end of the NEN call, at which point GZ says he was at the RVC end of the sidewalk, he had way more than enough time to walk back to his truck before the earliest possible moment the confrontation could have begun. It’s about 80 yards, a walk of under 54 seconds. The NEN call ended at 7:13:38. So GZ would have been back at his truck by 7:14:32. It’s only about 30 yards from RVC to the T, a walk of about 20 seconds. So GZ would have been there by 7:13:58. W3’s 911 call began at 7:16:11. It’s hard to imagine the confrontation starting over two whole minutes before that.
Besides, GZ as much as told Operator Sean he wasn’t going back to his truck.
** hoping the block quotes work **
@whonoze,
I consider our exchanges as an attempt to find out what actually happened, and I very much enjoy the challenges you give me in our exchanges. I was trying to clarify for people that are not as deep in the weeds as we are, that there are other options and that if it can’t be shown at trial, that Trayvon was chased by GZ south north, it doesn’t mean GZ is not guilty.
But it is good to see that you also think it is not likely, with the evidence we know of, the prosecution will argue Trayvon went south and then north again. I do hope they have other witnesses that did see a footchase, either on the dog walk going south north or somewhere else.
Nou their but there. damn.
OK gang:
Here is a Work-In-Progress version of the security cam video. Warning: the download is 515.6MB.
[video src="https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2816030/SCV4632draft1.mp4" /]
What you’ll see is mainly the work on the introduction, which is not yet entirely done. I’ll be adding a few more inserts of photos/video of the relevant places on the map (mailboxes, the ‘T’ etc.)
I post this now first just to show that I am actually working on it, second to see if anyone has comments and suggestions, and third for reference. I changed the timing of the security videos to the time of day clock by just under 4 seconds from what I had posted previously, as the video and audio of GZ’s truck on TTL line up better this way. It also allows for some reaction time between the appearance of Smith’s cruiser in the EPH and W3’s exclamation “I see a policeman now” that seems more realistic. Anyway, for time-code references to specific events I’d like to use this version now. (I hope I don’t have to redo the time-code again. It takes forever.)
After the intro, the current WIP version just goes to the quad view of the security cams and is silent until the NEN call starts. The finished product will have animated maps of our deduced movements of TM and GZ’s truck, and somewhat enlarged detail sections of the vids showing RVC and TTL respectively when GZ is on each — rather than all four cameras all the time.
Sorry willis, for not being able to answer your question earlier, but I had to double-check the new timecode, and it since I’m doing the vid in 1080i HD it takes like 24 hours for the computer to render everything out of Final Cut and then make an x264 .mp4 that’s a small enough file for upload and download. The actual rendered out piece in its native codec is like 36GB. The Martin case is gobbling up my hard drive. My ‘Trayvon’ folder is 96GB!
It seems very well done. I have trouble to look it more than 1 or 2 min. Is it because you are working on it at the same time?
You need to download the whole file, not try to open it in a browser. And perhaps how well it plays depends on your CPU and your player software. (???)
I downloaded it and took a first glance. First I like the concept. Maps with view are great. I think it would be great to add some of Dave’s videos, but you probably were already planning that.
You said w19, when I think you meant w18. I think you already know by now, how I feel about Trayvon going south, may I suggest you use the north route as an alternative?
I had an idea about merging footage from Dave with GZ’s movements on TTL, I’ll try put it together so you can take a look at it.
I know what a difficult job it is to put it together, and I really appreciate you are willing to do it.
I finally got the audio to play, media player lite plays the text upside down and backwards.
VLC doesn’t do the video, but the voice over is impressive. I tried to download another copy but, now the channel is jammed with everybody and his brother and sister downloading. What players are you guys using?
I have Verizon Fios service so I found previously I was able to just watch it automatically as it streamed when I clicked on the link. Didn’t really know how to download it per se. Should have. Now this is the message I get.
Error (509)
This account’s public links are generating too much traffic and have been temporarily disabled!
@Whonoze, from what I saw, it was quite good from first impression, but sorry didn’t make any notes on it for suggestions.
Whonoze – yes it’s a large file! Still trying to download the whole thing but as far as the first six-seven minutes go (all I’ve seen) it looks great. The narration takes a good tone and seems to be the sort of thing that represents the feelings of a consensus of this confederation very well. kudos.
Thanks for the hard work. Look forward to seeing the whole thing ASAP.
@whonoze.
Just downloaded. Big file yes but my computer handled it well, go figure? Anywho love the voice. Umm just listen to the first few minutes to make sure it downlaoded correctly and noticed that the narrator said witness 19 as the teacher, IIRC that should be witness 18 number and location. I will continue to view the whole file later after I run some errands.
Thanks Whonoze for all that you do. 🙂
@Whonoze and everyone
Lawsuit copy…..
Click to access complaintfilestamped-complaint-file-stamped.pdf
When it is downloaded, it works fine.
Wow! With this video it is so clear that GZ made up his statement to Singleton. The car passed a first time at 19:07:20 and come back about a minute later and after stop few seconds in front of the mail box (19:09:06) The NEN started almost 30 seconds later.
Maybe you can advise the viewers the time of the events just before his call.
I find the real time silence between 19:13:39 and 19:16:11 quite dramatic. It give also a good perspective of the timeline.
A car passed from East in front of the Club House at 19:15:50. Non identified?
There is not really any way to identify the owner of any vehicle on the clubhouse tapes except by deductive reasoning – the ones with flashing emergency lights are first responders, and the others are just vehicles with headlights. But of course if the car that lingers by the mailbox ISN’T GZs car, where was George at all?
Many things are possible. ( for all we know GZ killed TM in the alley behind Target and drove/ carried him to the dogwalk in an insanely pointless and elaborate ruse.). But whatever the explanation GZ deliberately lied to police investigators regarding his whereabouts and movents in the minutes preceding a killing. These tapes show that IMO beyond a reasonable doubt.
This why I keep saying it like a mantra: many things are possible; what GZ claims happened is not possible.
From Chris Serino’s first report on page 12 of 52 page PDF dump from Baez. (Link above.)
“Based on the facts and circumstances surrounding this case, George Zimmerman, by his own admission, corroborated by ·a recorded telephone conversation with the Seminole County Sheriff Office Communications Center, followed Trayvon Martin. Zimmerman’s personal perception was that Martin acting was suspiciously as Martin wa~ returning to the residence where he was an authorized guest. As Zimmerman followed Martin, Maatin became of aware of Zimmerman’s presence. Martin walked around Zimmerman’s vehicle, and Zimmerman ignored Martin. Zimmerman continued to follow him Martin, when Martin walked through the walkway between Retreat View Circle and Twin Trees Lane, which Is impassible with a motor vehicle. Zimmerman exited his vehicle, and continued to follow Martin on foot. Seminole County Emergency dispatch told Zimmerman “we don’t ne·ed you to do that”. While on foot, in a darkened pathway, the conversation between Zimmerman and the emergency dispatcher ends.”
While not completely explicit in language, I read this to say that Serino is of the belief that GZ trailed TM in his car down TTL just as I suspected is obvious from the timing of the NEN call and the normal walking speeds/ distance traveled, etc.
Serino says TM walked past the vehicle and that AFTER that GZ followed the teen. THEN after that, GZ exited his vehicle and “continued to follow” on foot.
That’s a description of a car-to-pedestrial chase on TTL IMO. Do others concur?
While of course driving behind someone in your own neighborhood is no crime, the point is that George tells the story in a different manner, carefully avoiding the idea that he EVER moved his car BEHIND the teen while the teen was in sight and moving AWAY from George. It’s the cornerstone of his false narrative to say that activity never happened.
Note however that Serino (sloppily, IMO) seems also to assume Trayvon WALKED into the cut thru path, when it’s very likely that he ran instead of walked, as GZ seems to be describing on his NEN call recording.
I’ve yet to check if this language gets amended in later versions / drafts of the report. The first one ends with the recommendation for charges of Murder in the Second degree.
I think he sort of admitted to it on the video re-enactment. I think it was while they were driving on TTL, and GZ starts describing where he sees Trayvon disappearing in the cut-through. He was asked “were you behind him” and he says yes. Of course that was after he added that Sean wanted him to have a visual of Trayvon, so he left the parking lot clubhouse to follow Trayvon on TTL. Of course he never calls it following.
That’s a good point, regarding what he said in the “video walk thru.”
The overall strategy however to GZ’s false narrative seems to be predicated PRIMARILY on avoiding/ obscuring and obfuscating the general notion that GZ ever moved in a manner of seeking/ following / trailing the teen in an intimidating manner. It’s obvious to me IMO that this is the “no-no” he was attempting to never admit – and of course it speaks to intimidation and profiling of course, elements of a M2 charge but mostly it serves to prove the defendant has zero credibility and lied to SPD investigators repeatedly about this topic.
He claims to move ahead of the kid from Taffe’s, then be stationary when passed while he is at the clubhouse parking lot. (We know this likely never occurred at all. It’s not possible to reconcile this with the timing of the NEN call, and other “proofs” that show he’s lying here.)
Then, after losing sight and being directed to move, he drives to the “final / FT according to George” cut thru east facing position AFTER TM has stopped moving east himself, and then supposedly TM moves west to circle and then completely vanish again into the southbound dog walk before GZ exits his car. (This would make a cat laugh, and is of course not possible either. )
Then his tale claims he moved to RVC, and seemingly quickly doubles back to “return to hsi vehicle wherein he is jumped from nowhere/bushes etc and struck to the ground with a sucker punch.
It’s all about not chasing the kid. He’s clearly lying about the first two moves, and that’s a pattern that probably extended to the last move- what happened after he exited his car.
Brief, preliminary summary of what’s in the Baez / Serino report drafts dump:
The first report is shorter and contains less investigative summary of work completed. It also includes a different “tack” at getting to the recommendation for a M2 charge, including the description of “following” the teen as described above. The attachment is 37K
The second report included in the PFD is called “draft 4”. and also ends with the paragraph about “following” and a recommendation for M2 charges. The size of the attachment is 36K, slightly smaller than the previous. I have not yet done a careful comparison, nor a word count to what the difference here is.
The third item is called “draft two” but is a version of a new summary/ conclusion that would presumably be the closing of much of the same previous investigative report material. This new summation introduces a new strategy to describing the findings, and should be read rather than described here but what’s interesting to me is that the bit about “following” is taken out and replaced with more language that speaks to profiling, and the lack of fear GZ exhibited after saying he didn’t engage the teen (when TM walked past his car) because he was afraid, and how this is at odds with his next acts, getting out of the car. This is where the “ultimately avoidable” language comes in, which has been discussed at great length on blogs such as Talk Left where it’s hammered on that failing to do something is not a crime in and of itself, etc and this is a “but for” accusation that will fail at trial. (“But for” the actions/ non-actions of GZ, TM would be alive – yet the actions are not illegal – not speaking, following a person, etc.) This summation ends with a recommendation for manslaughter charges.
The 4th item that seems to have been forwarded from Serino through an intermediary and then on to Baez (as were all reports) is a 39K draft that looks like the basic report with a draft of the new conclusion tacked on.
The 5th and last item forwarded via email is a pdf of what’s called “edited draft 6” and it is also 39K and ends with a very similar if not exact summation and a push for manslaughter charges.
There’s no real proof in the pdfs that these are in chronological order, but a cursory reading seems to show that they are indeed compiled here in the order they were drafted.
I’d be curious what others think about the difference in the two basic summations – one that emphasizes the “following” and other behaviors, and the other, closer i assume to the final capias that relies on profiling and fear/not fear among many other important distinctions.
Throughout, Serino plays his cards close to the vest and nowhere openly makes the claim that GZ is lying about aspects of the chase/pursuit/general whereabouts, but instead seems to concentrate overall on the lack of injuries, etc. and the lack of apparent motive on the part of the teen who was presumably profiled, pursued and not a genuine threat to GZ’s life.
I find it fascinating that Serino can be painted as a hero or villain yet in reality has managed to keep his private feelings about the case out of the public realm almost completely.
Reads to me, like someone attempting warn that GZ is running afoul of legal points in his story, such that “we should seek cover”. The lies are left out, because, it seems, Serino realizes he mustn’t tread too heavy.
If he didn’t know already, that the department had a preconceived notion about this case, he learned it quickly upon his arrival at the scene. His choice is to either appear to go along or be removed from the case. If he is removed from the case, he’ll likely face other hardships in the workplace as well, while a poorly done investigation can be worse than no investigation at all. Where another officer, more compliant, would have foregone any structured questioning session and would have avoided any walk through/reenactment.
While a repeatedly interrupted interview, that focused on mainly small talk and disjointed, unconnected facts, would allow explanation to appear credible, by not having prior statements to conflict with.
[Snowing in Israel, snow covered palms, while NYC in January is pulling 59 degrees)
Seems possible but the evidence for that interpretation seems slight IMO. But certainly one reading of the evolution of the drafts is that the earlier draft(s) that pushed for murder charges were a stronger case than the later summary that seems to emphasize a “but for” strategy.
Keep in mind Serino didnt know about Dee Dee, who may not be a cornerstone to the prosecution a trial, but was vital to seeing the whole picture for later investigators. Her account brings George to greater scrutiny and flies in the face of his “logic.”.
Isn’t that pretty much what we should expect, that the suggested charges would go down rather than up? Both people who were against Z being charged are out. Meanwhile GZ has emails where he praised the community liaison to the Chief and she praised him back.
It’s more than enough to show there was some conspiracy at work and by people to whom Serino would be beholden to for his job status. So, the evidence that Serino needed to appease these higher ups is plenty more than just “slight”. He did the investigative work, so, if anything, they should be taking the lead from him.
I don’t see the proof of conspiracy that you do Lonnie but YMMV. The fact that there were no solid eyewitnesses to the final stage of the engagement / confrontation who could testify as to how it began, progressed and ended meant that in the investigator’s eyes, it was an almost impossible case to prove the killing wasn’t in self-defense.
As for the glad-handing emails to and from a wannabe cop and someone whose job is to be nice to the public, that’s neither here nor there IMO.
Wolfinger’s not “gone,” just not running for re-election and also replaced on this case by a politically imposed special prosecutor of dubious ability and motive.
Bill Lee left but not peaceably. Good riddance, but for better or worse he was a controversial figure who frankly didn’t stand up well to general scrutiny, right or wrong in his assessment of the case. He had to go simply to calm the waters
Serino is working the night shift, possibly as punishment for leaking to the media. Hard to say. Maybe he likes it that way.
I know two things that Serino did – one is give a joint interview with Bill Lee at the height of the craziness where he toe’d the party line and agreed to one newspaper that the department didn’t YET have enough to charge George with but were continuing to investigate. The other thing he seems to have done is signal to a (black) resident off the record that the case was one where you had to read between the lines, and that George was lying and likely a racial profiler.
It’s all so VERY little to base an opinion on. But I think the latter represents his feelings more closely than the former.
As for the capias, to me it seems like it was an attempt at making a murder charge stick that was sent back for lack of an eyewitness and better proof. Then it was amended to a manslaughter capias after more “higher ups” got involved. Absent a reliable insider account, I can’t personally speculate much beyond that.
So you have it down as harmless error that Serino told a witness that the guy who was screaming is alive? Routine that they didn’t follow procedures that night? Gee, I don’t see what all the fuss was about, eh? All they needed was a little time to figure out what had happened?
Of course they’re not going to go after Wolfinger very seriously in public, he’s responsible for a whole lot of people being put behind bars over the decades he’s held office. Nobody in their right mind would want to have all those cases revisited, at least, not any public officials, if they could avoid it.
Not harmless error Lonnie. Serino was hornswaggled by Ayala and Smith, who presented him with ‘the facts of the case’ when he arrived on scene. He had no reason, at that time, to suspect that they were telling him anything but the truth.
Imagine what Serino must have gone through when he realized – after discovering TM’s identity, interviewing GZ, doing the walk-through, recording the voice exemplars and listening to the 911 call – that officers in his own department had sent him on the wrong trail. Could he have chalked it up to mere incompetence, or did he have to suspect something was going on?
I’ll say this once, Serino doesn’t get fooled in to telling anyone anything, he’s simply not supposed to explain things to witnesses. That is wrong! Even if he believed that GZ was in the right, he had no reason to inform any witness of anything he was thinking. To do so is witness tampering and that’s a crime. So, it simply cannot be an accident that he says what he does, he has to have a deadly serious purpose.
“Could he have chalked it up to mere incompetence, or did he have to suspect something was going on?”
You know what they say, never attribute to malevolence that which can be explained by incompetence.
unitron
@whonoze Drat – it seems that your dropbox link is generating an error message based on too much traffic. Who let the cat out of the bag? I wasn’t ever in one spot long enough yesterday to download the whole thing. ( I do think I got the gist of it, however and I’m sure I’ll live until the next version is up for review.)
Don’t forget, the outhouser’s read these boards also, so they could have mounted a denial of service attack.
A much more likely explanation than a DDOS is that a free DropBox account is not the same as an unlimited bandwidth account.
I’ve got one I use to host TiVo images (not shows, but the actual software that runs it, for people who have to replace failed hard drives) for various models, and back a month or so ago it got shut off for about 3 days because too many people were downloading from it too closely together in time.
unitron
(who gives TiVo advice at the tivocommunity.com forums)
@Whonoze,
To clarify what Taaffe says in the walk thru with Dave @ around the 12:00 mark, he does say Amanda, and her husband is the former President of HOA, that would be Noah Caraker.
http://www.scpafl.org/ParcelDetails.aspx?PID=32-19-30-5SP-0000-0240
What I also find interesting, is their address is the one that can been seen from the dogwalk. I wonder if George knew he was the past president that lived there. He knew who was the new President, Don O’Brien. He gave his number in the first interivew with Singleton along with Kent Taylor.
Interesting…
I wonder if they saw anything.
Not from the dogwalk, but from the RVC end of the cut-through sidewalk. That is, when Marinade Dave zooms in and focuses on the address GZ would presumably have reported to Sean had he gone to RVC to look for an address, Dave’s shot is the front of Caraker’s home.
Weird.
Very weird.
We have an Amanda M. on RVC and a Amanda J on TTL.
OK, I don’t really understand Google Drive, but I’ve uploaded the sec cam vid there. The URL is:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3xUz4HOqTiPZDFMOHhYdTctREE/edit
I don’t know if you can download it from there, or just look at it. I’d ask you NOT to try to view it in a browser, as the same thing may happen as with Dropbox. That is, don’t just click on the link. Try to see if you can download the file by right-clicking and choosing ‘Save As…’ Let me know if it works…
Actually, i had to click on the link (the google docs one). The video won’t start playing right away, unless you click on the play button so there’s no danger of streaming. On that page there’s a little down arrow (or under the file menu, there’s a download option) to click on to download. I just did it successfully. After download, my computer uses quicktime to play it. I have a 3 year old computer with 4 Mb RAM I think, which does fine with most applications but this video gobbles up so much memory, it doesn’t respond well if I try to jump around in the video. Best to sit through it…:) Good stuff.
Correction: 4 Gigabytes of RAM not 4 Mb RAM (I’m not THAT old!)
And, I also put the file on SugarSync. Here’s that link:
https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D6076961_8122878_7682251
Again, please just right-click and try to download, and only if you haven’t already downloaded it from Dropbox.
Regarding whose voice or voices is heard on the 911 call: the fact that the FBI claims the sample is of poor quality and can’t be used to determine scientifically who is yelling for help makes me think any experts brought in by either side at trial will not be seen as conclusive proof of anything.
However that also leaves an opening for both sides to mount an emotional appeal to the jury in the form of relatives swearing it’s their “guy” calling for help.
Fair or not, Trayvon’s mother is going to “win” this showdown to the extent it might be settled. IMO the data is inconclusive. GZ could be yelling for help to (illegally) restrain the unarmed minor just as easily as anything.
I dont personally have a strong opinion one way or the other about who is yelling.
As for Serino, he’s no eyewitness. And I don’t know his motives or how he arrived at his position.
I’m more suspect of Tim Smith and Alaya but again there is only vague evidence against them. Were they duped by GZ or actively covering for someone they were sympathetic towards or worse, openly engaged in a conspiracy to aid him in pressing a false narrative? I can’t say. Again the evidence is so slight and no one on the inside has really opened up to an investigation, either official or journalistic.
One tantalizing theory of corruption/ conspiracy concerns the timing of the release of Tim Smiths 3AM police report. According to some, the initial release of reports to journalists didn’t include Smiths alleged 3AM report. On the second release from SPD of police reports it was included but there was some funny business about fax numbers and time stamps that were suspicious. This was written about on daily Kos months ago. I’ll find the link if anyone’s interested. Like so many aspects of the case it’s one that raised more questions that it answered, and at the core was inconclusive IMO.
What is conclusive IMO is that GZ deliberately pushed a false narrative to investigators. How and where he succeeded to a certain extent is hard to pin down. That’s the nature of lies – once they start they seldom end. He’s sewn a lot of disinformation in a murky sea of distant events. Does it truly matter if one can tease out all the details of a bullshit story? Probably not possibe.
The ‘FBI opinion’ IIRC, was not an official agency conclusion, but a statement by a former FBI analyst asked for comment by a news organization. Regardless, it a generic opinion about an audio recording, and any voice ID analysis will stand or fall on the scientific merits of its specific methodology. A full scientific workup by Tom Owen, Alan Reich or other expert would have to employ ‘double blind’ control tests involving voices other than TM or GZ under similar conditions (screams recorded from a distance via a cell phone) to establish the accuracy of the technique employed. If these established a high success rate, the ‘FBI opinion’ isn’t worth squat.
Having listened to the call many times, I can say with certainty that the majority of the audible screaming is NOT calls for help, or words of any kind. It’s just screaming: “Whoooaa!” “Whaaaah!” and it could not have come from Zimmerman under the conditions he describes (being suuffocated and/or having his head bashed against the ground). You don’t need a forensics audio expert to establish that at trial. Any expert on voice production could testify that those sounds could not be made by a person receiving head trauma or having their mouth covered by a hand.
While no investigation into a police cover-up conspiracy has been opened as far as we know, the evidence for it is far from slight. After initially being skeptical, upon further examination I came to the conclusion the Wagner photo of GZ’s “bloody and broken nose” has definitely been manipulated, i.e. “photoshopped.” Since only SPD. FDLE and SAO officials have had access to this image, it has to have been an inside job.
Good points regarding the yelling recorded on the 911 call, Whonoze. My opinion still however is that after a lengthy courtroom fight with many experts brought to bear the issue may remain inconclusive to the extent that this one question – whose voice(s) is on the recording won t be the ONE issue that swings a divided jury into a unanimous one for either verdict, guilt or innocence. The defense can always argue that a reasonable doubt exists to whatever the prosecution contends, and IMO gain at least one or two holdouts.
As for the idea that the Wagner cell phone pic has been photoshopped I’m highly skeptical but willing to hear more about your suspicions. It was in Wagners possession for a lengthy time, that much is true. Who if anyone had means motive and opportunity to alter it? Seems to me that Serino and Singleton would likely object if what was released to the public was materially different than what was given them. But like we both agree upin, lacking a credible independent outside investigation into the SPDs investigation and actions we aren’t likely to know.
Returning to the security videos: I would like the group to offer interpretations of the movements of GZ’s truck on RVC. I have now figured out the time code references from the video I posted above for the ‘light events’ on RVC noted by tchoupi.
7:07:18 — Kitchen: truck passes heading East
7:07:19 — Gameroom:: truck passes heading East
7:08:13 — Gameroom: truck passes heading West
7:08:27 — Kitchen: truck passes heading West
7:08:39 — Kitchen: truck passes heading East
7:08:42 — Gameroom: truck passes heading East
As you see from the relative time gaps, the first Eastbound pass is the fastest, the Westbound pass is very slow, and the second Eastbound pass is deliberate.
Thinking about it, it seems to me that these times do not support the “GZ was tipped and was looking for TM” hypothesis. If he had been told TM was by the clubhouse, I doubt he would have driven by it so quickly at first. Rather they are more consistent with a hypothesis that GZ caught TM out of the corner of his eye on the first pass, and then returned to investigate.
If you check tchoupi’s pic of ‘View From North Entrance’, you can see that the foliage does NOT block a view of the mailboxes from the North RVC/TTL intersection.
I’ve written before that the language of the NEN call, “It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about. …looking at all the houses.” seems to support the tipster hypothesis as GZ could not have seen TM walking down RVC, but someone else might have, and reported this to GZ. But perhaps TM was just pacing under the mailbox awning as he talked to DeeDee…
However, I don’t think the truck movements are consistent with GZ intending to go shopping. Had he been headed out of RATL a) he probably would have been slower by the clubhouse on the first past to prepare for the left turn toward the exit, and b) his focus would have been on the turn, making it unlikely he would spot TM under the mailboxes out of the corner of his eye.
This leads me to this (highly speculative) hypothesis: I believe GZ’s speech patterns in the NEN call show he was under the influence of alcohol at the time. So I wonder if GZ had had a few and got into an argument with Shellie. Maybe his response to domestic arguments is to hop into the truck and go cruise the neighborhood, because a) it get’s him out of the house and away from the ball and chain, b) makes him feel powerful in his cop fantasy role, c) provides self-propping-up in his conflict with his wife: “See I am an important man doing important things, while you just bitch and moan.” If true, this scenario would give him extra motivation _in the moment_ to try to apprehend Trayvon, to demonstrate his manly power to his not properly subserviant wife. And it also provides a possible subtext to his odd comment to JonW13 of “Just tell her I shot someone,” which could mean “and it’s your fault, for making me pissed off, you stupid cunt!” Because we all know nothing is ever George’s fault.
Anyway, your thoughts on the truck movements are moreimportant, but I’d be interested in anyone’s comments on the ‘domestic’ hypothesis as well.
I’ve been trying to figure out the exact movements in that time frame. I actually think there are 2 cars moving on RVC. One appears to be grey, the other black or dark blue. I’ve been trying to see if I can find a pattern in the lights reflected in the ep video. I have not been succesfull other than the right hand upper corner being lit up about 20 seconds before the car can be seen in the eph. I think that light may be the headlights of a car on the corner of RVC and TTL. I also think there were no cars parked in front of the clubhouse, and GZ may have driven past the k video window, driving in this parking space.
I am very surprised by your comment. First it was dark and GZ could very well miss Trayvon if he was driving with some speed. Second, let’s imagine this scenario. Somebody called GZ and reported a suspicious young man walking near the Club House. GZ took a few time to get ready and after drove fairly fast toward the Club House. By the time Trayvon went under the maibox. GZ didn’t know that and missed him the first time.
Note that he took almost a minute to come back. This is not surprising if he didn’t know where Trayvon was. So after having search for a time further on RVC, he came back slowly this time and then he noticed Trayvon and the third time trun on TTL.
That’s what I’ve been imagining for some time. But if that was the report he received, there is no reason for him to drive with some speed past the clubhouse. If he was looking for someone or something in particular, he would likely have been more deliberate the first time.
Besides, I like my ‘domestic’ hypothesis :-).
I kindly disagree. I meant a speed around 20 mph (should be quite easy to evaluate). Which gave him around 2 sec to look. But because he wouldn’t know where was Trayvon he might had look all around and not directly toward the mailboxes. Add to this that it was dark.
Besides, i am sure that you are not serious with your domestic hypothesis.
tchoupi made a mistake on his timings. The first two passes by the clubhouse are approximately the same speed, and you’re right, neither is all that fast. So the tipster hypothesis is back in.
But I was being serious about the ‘domestic’ hypothesis, in the sense I think it’s plausible.
The one thing I think we can say for sure is that GZ wasn’t going shopping, and was, in fact, patrolling.
I rather like the “domestic” hypothesis. Fits in VERY well with the slip on the reenactment, that begins with “as I told you my wife.. (gulp, pause) I’d gone out to go shopping” as his reason for deciding not to waste time observing the suspect.
I always believed he WAS tipped off. But not “suspect at clubhouse”. More like “suspect near Taaffe’s shortcut”. By the time he gets there, no suspect. So he drives along RVC (yep right to the corner to see down to the back gate), on the way back (going east) spots movement at the mail boxes, chucks the last U to go down there.
He just claims the suspect as his own discovery, to hide that he was deliberately going after him. Can’t place it at mailboxes, as nobody sheltering there should arouse suspicion. Placing it at Taaffe’s, he has a whole rehearsed earlier story to blame for his suspicions.
The “real” reason for deciding to keep going and just call it in, is to have excuse to hang about at clubhouse, giving Trayvon time to act suspicious again (which he did, by walking from Taaffe’s to clubhouse carpark in about 25 seconds in order to get ahead of GZ).
Sarcasm aside, the “keep going to shops decision” is necessary, to make the action move back to the mailboxes, Trayvon 10 ways suspicious by now, where he can’t claim to have first accidentally spotted him.
I don’t think he has time to drive to the bend in RVC and back between the first two passes by the clubhouse.
About the screaming. The head injuries and the hand on the GZ’s mouth may happened at the beginning of the altercation, but with no mad intention from Trayvon. Maybe GZ got scared anyway and screamed for help.
The screams just before the shot are obviously different. It could still be GZ if he thought that Trayvon was trying to get his gone. I don’t think that’s what happened but it has to be prove.
That’s simply silly. Armed ex bar room bouncers don’t scream because of approaching teenagers.
They might if they want witnesses to their heroic nabbing of someone they think is a burglar.
Thank you Lonnie. Approaching? It looks clear that, at least in the beginning, Trayvon had the upper hand over GZ. Why GZ would not have shouted for help then? But even so, he should still be found guilty (at least manslaughter) if he hunted Trayvon all the way as DeeDee told.
Sorry, people, I was unavoidably absent for a week. Rather than go back to individual posts, I’ll just throw in some comments all in one place.
1: north-south-north: Deedee’s talks of “back” and “nearby dad’s house” indicate Trayvon was at one time quite a long way south. He mostly kept moving, on her account. He tried to “outwalk” the stalker for a while. If this was from the T southwards, why didn’t GZ see him 2 minutes earlier while looking for an address? If he he’d gone “back” there by himself to take the long away around to his dad’s house, he must have at one time been further south.
So either way, Trayvon must have been well south of the T of his own volition before the “he’s behind him again” final chase started. That HAD to move north because GZ was BEHIND him, ie further south.
2: doggie path: there is NO EVIDENCE of any kind that Trayvon ever went anywhere near the doggie path at all, except for dying there. GZ says “shit he’s running” where? “towards the back entrance”. Nothing about “on the doggie path”. In his written statement the suspect disappears/reappears “between houses” — that can as easily be a cut-through between blocks of homes, as the path between 2 rows of blocks.
Seeing him run to the T is not “to back entrance”. Seeing him run down TTL is. “Lost him” is the same as Deedee’s “thinks he lost the man”……a quick duck into “between houses”.
3: the walk to RVC: what does GZ do in the reenactment? He is adamant he was not following. He just told Sean “I lost him” because he could not see him (looking down the doggie path as he says this). Also vaguely admits to going the same way at the same time. NEVER actually SAYS Trayvon went down that path. “Don’t know where he’s at”.
Everyone is assuming Trayvon ran on the doggie path because (a) that is where he was killed and (b) that seems to be where GZ was non-following him.
BUT if he’d gone down TTL and ducked between buildings (disappears between houses in GZ first statement) then GZ can do two things: (1) try to out run a young guy with a head start or (2) cut across the top of the T to get a GOOD VIEW down the doggie path, which the “between houses” leads to.
And then CONTINUE TO RVC in case the suspect had gone all the way through to there. A clear view down both Doggie and RVC shows nobody, meaning the suspect is HOLED UP somewhere, as he’d not have had time to exit the back gate. This is simply a function of the area being more than twice as long a it is wide. (This paragraph applies just as well if Tray DID go down Doggie originally).
So next logical step is go down RVC and check into the cut-throughs all the way down. Going on the centre path would be silly, as the suspect could run off to left or right. RVC is one edge of the rectangle, so going along that cuts off one escape route for the quarry.
GZ was NOT FOLLOWING Trayvon on his RVC-address-search walk. He was HUNTING for him.
I beg to differ. If GZ had seen Trayvon head South on TTL, I think he would have followed in his truck. The only reason for GZ to get out of the truck is to track Trayvon through an area where cars cannot go. The timing for TM turning onto TTL is also wrong in terms of when he passes the truck at the ‘GZ shits a brick’ “How long until you get an officer over here?” mark. So Trayvon was already past TTL, heading East on the cut-through sidewalk when GZ saw him break into a run. He didn’t run TOO the T, he ran FROM the T (more or less, I’m sure he cut off the corner, rather than staying strictly on the sidewalk).
I certainly don’t want to blame the victim, but in 20/20 hindsight one can see a variety of things Trayvon might have done that could have altered the course of events (had he only known how dangerous GZ was, which, of course, he could not have known…) One of those small things: had he turned the corner at the T and headed South just walking, not breaking into a run until he was out of sight of Zimmerman’s truck, I doubt GZ would have left the truck and run after him.
I agree with your logic whonoze, with a slight variation. FWIW by my estimation, Trayvon most likely took off running when he was just reaching the second bend in TTL, and the distance he ran was aprox from where the cut thru sidewalk begins to somewhere out of sight from George, and my hunch is that he cut the corner in the grass to do so like you say. It’s very hard to see in almost every photo but there is a foot-beaten path right at the corner that turns into the dog walk area.
We can’t really know absent a full confession, but it’s possible that the manner GZ trailed the teen down TTL was by NOT making a u-Turn or Y-turn but instead by backing his vehicle up from the first corner roughly to the second. Imagine how intimidating this would be to the youth, especially if he caught up to or PASSED the youth in so doing. I’ve often wondered if this passing might be the origin for the “circled the car” false narrative since George could have seen TM pass him possibly on both sides of his vehicle, technically assuming TM passed first on one side and then the other. It fits the “he passed me and then passed me again” rough outline but is of course leaving out the most important detail – George’s own movements and culpability. (it’s clear to me that GZ’s prime directive in pushing his false narrative is to obscure the car-to-pedestrian mini chase down TTL. Dee Dee confirms this car chase happened in her poorly recorded interview w Crump, BTW but the distinction wasn’t followed up on in subsequent interview w BDLR.)
The parking spot GZ claims is far enough from the curve that his headlamps or even reverse lights would shine in the direction of the cut thru sidewalk. That could be why he didn’t drive closer into the bend and save himself a few steps. It also may be an indication he was driving in reverse. I sometimes favor the reverse idea since it all happens in the blind spot of the pool video. Of course once GZ exited the car his backup lights would go off so that’s something to consider as well.
Like you say whonoze, were TM running down the 2nd bend in TTL George most likely would have pursued him with his vehicle rather than exiting and going after the teen on foot. It’s also the obvious motive for TM leaving the roadway – car’s don’t often go 4×4 just to give a black kid the stink eye. I tend to think once TM was out of sight from where he LAST saw the scary car, he slowed down and continued his phone call and possibly never strayed very far from where his body was found.
This idea frustrates many because of things Dee Dee says and the long time of the “missing minutes” but it’s one of many possibilities and the physical evidence is all there in that area.
Again however it’s not the prosecution’s job to prove “TM walked here and ran there” precisely. ( And we are all chasing phantoms to a large extent in this area since there’s simply almost no data to scrutinize.) At trial, they are likely to present a somewhat vague narrative suggesting the TM was profiled, pursued and then killed by George by first destroying George’s credibility and then extending his pattern of (proven) lies into the land of circumstantial evidence covering the activities of the missing minutes. Since he lied about not chasing him down TTL, he’s probably lying as well about not chasing him into John W6’s back yard as well. Someone closed a gap between the two, either the lying hothead who was in clear pursuit, or else the scared teen busy talking to his girl.
Each juror will come to harbor his own version of “what happened” just like we here do, but they will agree as a group that GZ lied to investigators and exhibited a pattern to his lies that, coupled with some basic forensics seals his guilt in their minds.
The testimony of his mother regarding the identity of the 911 screamer(s) will be emotional and powerful, and right or wrong the prosecution is going to win over the majority of the jurors here IMO. I myself remain neutral on the issue of who is heard yelling, but I’m not the one that the prosecution has to convince. I think whomever is yelling that GZ is a lying sack of sh*t and if he told me the sun rose in the east I’d throw away my compass. To me he’s signaled his guilt a dozen times already. If it’s him yelling that’s tantamount to proof that he wanted to detain the youth illegally as he’s admitted already – “help me hold this guy (paraphrased)” words to the resident seal that one IMO.
I tend to think it will be unanimous among the jury that GZ is a liar. The M2 deliberations will make or break over the question of whether the prosecution has fully proven it’s case for M2 or not, and if not, the jury may vote for the lesser charge of manslaughter. While IMO it”s clear M2, I’d welcome a manslaughter verdict over a hung jury. Our justice system if full of flaws but “innocent until proven guilty” is a standard worth missing some cases over.
I’m pretty sure that once TM knew this crazy dude was watching him in that truck, if it was parked there on TTL near the cut through, he would have avoided walking that way. Why, in the world would he want to get near it? Most especially since he lived to the south!
So, if GZ was parked where he says, my impression is that TM would have left the mail shed and headed towards the nearest southern cut through, and gone between the buildings, before heading south towards home.
So, it seems to me that GZ is lying once again, just like it did when he tried to say he saw TM at Taaffe’s. The odds of things happening the way he says are incredibly low. Frightened people don’t walk towards the source of their fears if they have another choice.
If TM went to the north path towards the T, then it was because GZ was actually parked south on TTL, thus blocking TM’s access to the nearest cut through, and forcing him to take the north cut through to the T, to avoid having to pass close to GZ in his truck.
GZ, on the other hand, is trying to structure a narrative where, he is not frightening to TM, but that TM is acting aggressively with bravado. GZ is parked south on TTL, but when he see’s TM moving towards the north cut through, he says on the NeN call “he’s coming towards me”. What he doesn’t know is, for that whole time TM is on the phone himself. So, when GZ says that TM asked him why he was following him, and he says he answered that he was not following him and rolled his window back up. DD should have been a witness to that exchange, she was not! So, that never happened at all.
TM never walked towards GZ’s truck, instead he took pains to avoid it. That means he was forced by GZ to take the long way around to get home, which gave GZ more time to get into position to catch him.
TM probably started to run, after he rounded the corner and was out of GZ’s line of sight! At which point, GZ needed an excuse to get himself into position to intercept TM as he came south in the dog path corridor. TM probably started south, keeping close to the buildings/shadows on the west side of the corridor. GZ exclaims “He’s running” and gets out of his truck, then runs south on TTL to get to the last cut through, so he can apprehend TM before he reaches, either his house or the back gate.
GZ waits in the cut through there for TM to come along, and continues to talk to NeN, until he spots TM coming this way. TM, is crossing the dog path corridor, to get to his house, when GZ springs out into the corridor and TM hears him, looks and says to DD he’s behind him again. TM, not wanting to lead GZ to the house, turns away and tries to run south, and away from the house. TM tires and GZ catches him and applies some painful hold to stop him from running, TM howls in pain and witnesses begin to appear. GZ’s plan to herd TM to the north walkway ends there.
GZ’s drug and alcohol addled brain, doesn’t allow him to change the planned story, he has rehearsed. Nor is he questioned about events leading up to the location of death, until much later on. When he is asked about that part of the chase, his drug addled brain simply kicks out the prepared story, that everything happened at the T. After all, it doesn’t matter does it? The “fix” is already in, Serino is assuring him that he’s not under arrest, so GZ believes that the fix is in, so he tells the prepared story and sure enough he’s released.
Serino is going along with a protocol that’s already been set by higher ups. All he can do is attempt to document GZ’s story, otherwise his hands are tied. Nor can Serino make waves, because that will result in the case being handed over to someone who is more willing to mess up the investigation.
“So, when GZ says that TM asked him why he was following him, and he says he answered that he was not following him and rolled his window back up. ”
Zimmerman may have said something about rolling up his window, but he never claimed any exchange of words between himself and Martin except for just before the beginning of the struggle at or near the T with both of them on foot, and the young lady never claims any exchange of words between them until then either.
unitron
Depends on which version you’re referring to. GZ tells one version where, while parked on TTL, TM walks over and asks if GZ is following him, GZ says that he told him he wasn’t following him and he rolled the window back up. Ah, yes, he told this version to Serino, because Serino asked him why he didn’t identify himself then and GZ says he was afraid of TM so he didn’t identify himself then. Next thing GZ does is exit his car and start running after TM, and Serino then says “that’s not fear”. So yeah, he did say that he talked with TM.
I must disagree Lonnie. First, there’s the audio evidence of TM passing the truck in the form of the “GZ shits a brick moment,” which has no other explanation, really. It’s also giving Zimmerman’s alcohol addled brain too much credit to imagine he is lying as he describes events-as-they-happen to Sean.
Sean: He’s near the clubhouse right now?
GZ: Yeah, now he’s coming towards me…
He’s got his hand in his waistband. And he’s a black male…
He’s got a button on his shirt…
He was by the clubhouse, he did leave, and he did have a button on his shirt. And throughout DeeDee’s account, as I’ve already noted, we learn that although TM is scared, he also seems determined not to be intimidated by creepy Zimmy, to the point where he refuses to run, because he has every right to be walking where he is. There were circuitous routes he could have taken home that Zimmerman could not have followed. (He could, for example have taken the sidewalk to the South of the building on the South side of the West-East leg of TTL). But he didn’t.
Let’s see, just working from memory now… GZ’s NeN call begins at 7:09, with TM at the mail shed and GZ knows the difference, since he even says at some point “He didn’t look like he was getting his mail”. So, why is he saying “Clubhouse” explicitly?
He’s on the NeN call when TM supposedly comes by his truck. But, doesn’t he claim in one version, that his window was rolled down and he was asked if he was following TM? He says he tells TM that he’s not following him and rolls his window up. Then he tells Serino that he didn’t identify himself then, because he feared TM. Why wasn’t that exchange picked up on the NeN call tape?
So, there’s a lot of lying and misdirection going on here. I don’t find it hard to believe that GZ could feign surprise on the phone as well. Which is why this portion of the saga has become fluid to me again. Because there’s little to nothing about GZ that can or should be believed. Most especially nothing that has any self serving properties as told by GZ.
Fanciful, IMO Lonnie. My take on Serino is that he and SIngleton were playing good cop/ good cop the whole time as a deliberate tactic to draw out George, an obvious bullshitter and get him to go on record as many times as possible with his inconsistent and contradictory tales. Anyone who tries to tell a false narrative is going to mess up their story if asked to tell it more than once, it’s just the nature of the process of making stuff up.
The “voice stress test” is a clear example of the idea. No one gives a rat’s behind about the RESULT of those tests, there is no pass or fail to it at all – it’s just an excuse, as the preamble to taking the test to make GZ wait around in a room with Singleton – guy in a room with no one talking and supposedly no pressure, no cameras, etc and so naturally he gets nervous and talks to fill the empty space with words. That;s where he makes the “i bet no one tries to defy YOUR authority” comment which is likely to be brought up at trial. Then, finally the “tester” guy shows up and oh, by the way, before we get started could you tell me the whole thing again in your own words please? And that’s where George says for something like the third or fourth time that he was sucker punched to the ground where he stood – up at the T, which flies in the face of what he’s forced to say when he is doing his “walk thru” the next day. He’s also inconsistent on whether or not he got our his cell phone all the way or not – IMO he never went for his cell phone at all – his hand was on his handgun and his keychain flashlight, most likely.
These are the slip ups that convictions are built from. George had a big advantage over most suspects however – he killed the only good witness.
But that’s why George was given the impression that he “passed” the voice stress test – so that he would continue to volunteer information and statements when of course any fool knows he has the right to remain silent and the right to an attorney, and there are good reasons to know these rights and USE them when you are in police custody, no matter how nice they SEEM to be in speaking to you.
If George was one-third as “clever” as you ascribe him to be, Lonnie, he’d have kept his mouth shut and waited for his lawyer to come by his side. The less he could have said the better as far as saving his own arse goes. GZ will be convicted i predict primarily on the basis of his statements to SPD investigators, which are provable lies. Once you lose credibility with a jury in a self defense case it’s all over but the crying.
I do agree that many possible paths are worth considering as far as who ran where goes, but IMO one guess is as good as another. A better question to ask a jury is simply – who closed the gap between these two people? George has his story and common sense says pretty much the opposite – and then there is Dee Dee to tip the scales in Trayvon’s direction.
We know that George has given several versions of his story, that each impeach the other and the evidence contradicts them all. And, of course he should have kept his mouth shut, but he didn’t because he believes he’s smarter than everyone else.
Under normal circumstances, where it isn’t a murder/homicide under discussion, most people won’t bother much to discredit lies, so they’ll just do what they feel they should and not argue, debate or otherwise challenge the liar. Leaving the liar to feel comfortable that he or she has actually put it over on “them”. Which is in fact a delusion in many cases.
Of course in this conjecture I’m not preparing for a battle in court, I’m merely trying to see if there’s a way to explain the odds and ends left in this case.
Here are some more speculative photo-illustrations I’m curious to get others’ opinion about.
Is this what is visible at 7:07:21:28 in the latest video by whonoze?
Here is a frame grab to compare to.
Keep in mind the orientation of the vehicle in my first illustration is poorly aligned, but the scale and position is approximate to what my opinion is. I think the road parallels the front of the clubhouse better than I was able to illustrate. Hopefully you get the idea tho.
I know others have seen this frame and interpreted it differently.
here is an old speculative illustration for comparison’s sake.
this is Diwataman’s video on YouTube – the time stamp for this frame is 20:48
Thanks for looking and letting me know. I have not checked to see if “Marinada Dave’s” video walk thru approximates this or any other clubhouse cam camera position ever to an extent that a good daytime comparison can be made – does it?
I don’t think the wheel could be either that large or that high in the frame. I also think the truck is too large in the ‘old’ illustration (is that tchoupi’s?). This is a wide angle lens, and looking out the window at an oblique angle, so whatever it sees out that window is going to be fairly far away and thus appear to be smaller. Dave’s video isn’t going to help much, since he’s at eye level, not ceiling level, and even though his camera seems to be zoomed all the way out, it’s still not anywhere near as wide as the security cam lens.
That frame has to be showing SOME part of a vehicle, but what exactly I can’t say. It does seem to show the vehicle is light colored and fairly large, but beyond that it’s pretty obscure. I don’t think we can say for sure that it’s the Ridgeline (but, yeah, I THINK it is…)
@whonoze, you have mail.
I’m with you on the wide angle camera lens most likely making a vehicle, were it easily visible (as in a daytime comparison) smaller in the frame. One way to “work the problem” would be to try and estimate the relative distance from the mailbox shot of the car lights as the (what else if not) Ridgeline creeps up there.
Wouldn’t it be so much nicer if the SP cared to conduct some bllindtest experiments? The FDLE could “solve the case” with one nights filming IMO, provided they cared to read bcclist ands this blog naturally,
Perhaps the deck chairs in the pool video can be used as a comparison
Benchmark of sorts. – they are a known size and a measurable distance away from that lens (which is likely higher tho). Google earth’s ruler tool is the key to my next study area…
The idea that GZ swooped into the clubhouse parking lot on the move or drove at a rate of speed we can estimate is also worth trying to calculate. IMO unfortunately the car(s) on RVC can’t be definitively tied to GZ beyond a reasonable doubt in court but that the car that trolled the mailboxes is more likely than not GZ since no other cars are around at the right time. This car seems to disappear around the “snowman bend” but it’s less conclusive by some degree the same car that returns to face the mailbox since it’s not continuously visible in an unbroken sequence. But even then I think a jury would agree “BARD”that this is GZ driving to either the FT final position (at the least) or else all the way to where he marked Singleton’s map and then suspiciously amended it. The “long tail” timing of the NEN recording places the vehicle there in my book, but whether it does so BARDoubt isn’t for me to say – it’s my theory and I’m quite biased that I’m right .
Fascinating case. Thanks again to everyone for the company and your efforts and time.
@Willis
Wouldn’t it be so much nicer if the SP cared to conduct some bllindtest experiments? The FDLE could “solve the case” with one nights filming IMO, provided they cared to read bcclist ands this blog naturally.
One nights filming….
If someone was to do that what would you ask to see reasonably speaking, of course.
If you’re talking about a recreation of what could be seen on the security cameras, no extra equipment needed. Just plop in a fresh tape in those same cameras mounted on the ceiling in the clubhouse. Block off the road for a half hour. Have someone drive a Honda Ridgeline (silver) back and forth by the clubhouse and onto TTL, or in whatever sequence that we’ve determined here to be most likely to recreate those light events we see in the windows. While the jury might have their heads spinning if one were to try and convince them that GZ did loop de loops around the cluphouse, I think the one thing that can be used in court would be to demonstrate that there was no truck parked for any period of time in front of the clubhouse as he claimed on the re-enactment video. That would effectively catch him red handed in a lie.
@WSI
Wow, I feel like I just slapped upside the head. 🙂 I’m awake now!
forgot *got* might have to get another whack
@loree (aka blushedbrown), didn’t mean to whack you. I usually send the mental whack upside the head to the defendant of this case….and today, I’m giving one to his lawyers too. They’re treading on thin ice daring to talk about TM’s memory on their website.
I figured that’s where you where coming from, but I got in the way. 🙂
I have read their post on the GZlegalcase site, and I do get what you are saying about treading on his Memory. I agree it is VERY thin ice.
Yes, “wassointeresting” that’s what I mean by a blind test. I’m not sure that we can judge the color of any car in those videos, and I agree that the loops in front of the clubhouse are speculative at best. But a good test may remove some of that speculation, we can’t know until we try.
But a simple test of “recreating” the car’s possible movements would be incredibly illuminating. Do one where you drive where GZ claims and another where you drive where it seems via deductive reasoning and the video itself that he did, and compare the two. It wouldn’t have to be raining, but if i were the “director” of such a shoot I’d get a water truck to wet down the streets like they do for feature films and such so they reflect lights in the same manner, and I’d go ahead and shoot a few rehearsals in daylight as well. I’d also ask residents by the dog walk to flip off and on some houselights and front porch/garage lights just to be thorough.
SInce, realistically, AFAICT that ain’t gonna happen, what I really wish is that we could just see some of the footage from these cams in daylight, or barring that that someone with a pro-sumer quality video camera would simulate the pool video by standing under the surveillance cam and film the angle of view in the daytime, and watch some cars come and go at night. There’s a blind spot that is infuriating, and we don’t yet know exactly where the cars are heading or how they may or may not be visible making uturns, etc. But is seems blazingly obvious to me that George is lying about his movements and that it’s already proven BARD that he has no credibility regarding these matters.
The whole point of “blind studies” is to have a “control” group of data to compare to.
Many things are possible. What GZ claims happened is not possible. The videos alone prove it. The timing of the NEN call alone proves it. The inconsistencies and contradictions in his statements to SPD alone prove it. Together, they paint a very clear picture with disturbing conclusions – that he’s a goddamn liar who chased the teen down TTL with his car, and established a pattern of lies that seem to extend into the missing minutes demonstrating his guilt of M2, and yes, I think Beyond A Reasonable Doubt.
Feb 5th is Trayvon’s Birthday and has become a very busy day in the legal world.
Click to access motion_for_sub_to_abc.pdf
Whonoze, you just might get that ABC tape audio. 🙂
I can only wonder what took them so long.
I see the Defense still is taking unwarranted shots at Attny. Crump, and making false accusations about his recording. (Stopping and starting while the witness is not speaking is not “editing”, nor is failing to get the recorder into ‘record’ at one point when she resumes; and Crump’s version is just a bad first generation recording, not a “recording of a recording”.)
It will be interesting to see how ABC responds, and how Judge Nelson rules on this request.
The motion from the defense claims ABC news has no journalistic privilege regarding their audio recording(s) of DeeDee. I’m guessing they will file a lengthy motion in reply arguing they do claim their reporter had a right to protect his source and retain his materials at his own discretion but that eventually they will share the recoding anyway since it was requested and there’s nothing harmful to ABC news on it. But first they will milk the issue for ratings, as is their right. The night before surrendering the audio that will run a program or segment and air most of it themselves. That’s what I’d do anyway.
Of course what’s almost hilarious an certainly ludicrous is that the defense wants to use this fight over recordings to somehow introduce reasonable doubt into what Dee Dee said, yet by including this additional early interview material the concept of the car-to-pedestrian chase gets brought up even though the prosecution at on point it seems had overlooked it. I hope they don’t miss it before trial begins and I think it’s going to boomerang onto the defense significantly. Never ask for evidence to be introduced that damages your client if you are a defense counselor. All MOM had to do was listen carefully to Crumps recording to hear Dee Dee describe how Trayvon was telling her he was being shadowed by a MOVING car. I think that’s a bombshell concept for the prosecution to introduce at trial.
@Whonoze
Totally agree stopping and starting is not editing. O’mara taking cheap shots, is only just that, “cheap shots”.
After the hearing on Feb 5. I don’t think it will be made readily available to us. (sigh) if he is granted the motion. All those to obtain then review. We will still be in dark per se.
of witness “8”
Click to access Notice%20of%20Docket%20Sounding%20Feb%205%202013.pdf
Next hearing date, FEB 5th.
Miami Dade Fireman wants old job back, next hearing FEB 5
http://miami.cbslocal.com/2013/01/14/miami-dade-fire-captain-demoted-over-trayvon-martin-post-fights-for-old-job/
2nd draft of the security cam video is now up at Google Drive:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3xUz4HOqTiPSEpGMlB5LURtblE/edit
• The introduction is now (hopefully) complete, with more images added.
• The audio track now has clips from DeeDee’s interview with BDLR to fill in gaps between the NEN call and the 911 audio excerpts.
• Most importantly, the animation showing the movements of GZ’s truck, and TM’s initial walking path past the truck is now included.
Still to do: add another animation showing the arrival of W13 and Timothy Smith on the scene.
This one compressed a bit smaller. It’s 441MB. Again, once you get to it on Google Drive, please download it, rather than attempting to view it online.
Comments welcome, but please understand: the animation is not perfect, but it’s the best I can do, and it took forever and a day to get it where it is now.
And, yes, blushedbrown, it’s my voice doing the narration.
And FWIW, I made the opening 911 audio montage over black BEFORE I saw Zero Dark Thirty.
Excellent. I know you’re trying to be faithful in your reproduction, but most people won’t tolerate long intervals of inactivity. I’d suggest that you make two versions, a public version for lay people and a Pro version for us “diggers”. In the public version you can substitute a text card, with a rapidly rolling clock for the time that should elapse, while using text to explain the light events that won’t be seen in this version.
Oh, I’d also cut it there where GZ parks, and I’d work on the end versions separately.
So that people can choose between ending 1, 2, 3… (n).
Big problem is GZ lies and makes things up out of whole cloth. Early on, he had us chasing speculations about how TM would/could/should have entered, fixated on Taaffe’s cut through. By now we know that GZ never stopped there, never left home in time to catch TM there, and so his talk about the clubhouse is false.
What else is false? We don’t know. My guess is he purposely shined his headlights full on at TM in the mail shed, to spook him. I, also don’t get the feel that he would have let TM out of his sight, as he moved around to TTL towards the cut through, so he probably backed up, staying just far enough ahead, so that he would not spook TM into taking a more evasive route.
There’s a chance that, instead of TM walking past GZ in his truck, that TM kept to the far south side of the road, as far away from GZ as the road would allow, then he could have gone south on TTL and used a cut through to the dog walk.
But, that would have given him a very big lead, which I don’t believe GZ would allow. So, I think that GZ backed up TTL and stopped quite a ways south on TTL. This prevented TM from coming south on TTL and forced him to use the north cut through, giving GZ the lead to the back gate. GZ could have said he’s running at any point in time, when he felt he wanted to get out of his truck. He never says on the NeN call where he is going. Only later did he say he was headed over to RVC east via the north walkway. In reality he could have been anywhere. He would certainly know better than to tell anyone that he was south of the north walkway to the T.
Then, he could wait in the cut through for TM to come past. When TM finally passes, he then come out and starts after him again, as TM is heading east to his house, GZ is coming up behind him from the west and thus “he’s behind me again!” makes more sense.
TM then turns away from the house, because he doesn’t want to lead GZ to Chad. So he turns south with GZ behind him. TM is running for his life and doesn’t pace himself, so he’s out of breath in only a few dozen yards and caught.
Anyway, great work. I can’t find a play that will work on my computer but I can stream it. Oy vey!
Ah, I munged that a bit. Okay, in that last part I’m saying I think GZ backed up going south on TTL towards Long Oaks Way and stopped near a southern cut through nearer the back gate. This would force TM to use the north walkway to the rear dog walk, so as to avoid GZ. In the back corridor he’d keep close to the western houses and walk up the grass. As he passes a cut through and doesn’t see GZ in there, he assumes he’s lost him. and continues towards home. He starts to move east across the dog path corridor.
As he nears his house, GZ comes out of a cut through over west and TM sees GZ is behind him again and turns away from his house.
I noted that on the NeN report, the box that says “nearest intersection” is filled in: “Long Oaks Way”. But, if GZ started his call down by the mail boxes, the nearest intersection should read RVC.
Have you tried VLC? It will play just about anything.
As for the movements of GZ’s truck, what I discovered doing the animation is that there is very little room for alternative hypotheses. I didn’t so much make it to conform to my take on things, but rather struggled long and hard to find a way to fit realistic movments of the truck to the known data points. That is, we know when he’s stopped in front of the mail kiosk. We know when his truck passes through the snow-mama. We know when he first parks the truck and turns off his lights. We know when Trayvon starts walking in his direction. We know when he leaves his truck. The timing between the last point he describes Trayvon in a way that indicates he’s looking at him “He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is,” and when he opens his door is very short. He could not have backed up down TTL. Also, the ‘long tail’ has a specific length: the time between “How long until you get an officer over here?” and “Shit he’s running.” Had TM run down TTL, it would have been shorter.
You’ll have to trust me on this I guess, but when I made even minor changes to the positions and timings in the animations, everything fell apart. Initially I had thought GZ’s first parking position, facing the mailboxes, should have been farther to the West (closer to the mailboxes) than where I have it now. But I just couldn’t make the timing work, and I had to move it back to the East a bit. That’s just one example. When you actually get those rectangles moving around on a map in sync with a clock, you see that a lot of things you thought might have happened just couldn’t have happened.
As for the long stretch where nothing happens, I absolutely want to stay with real time, both for conceptual and evidenciary reasons. It would still be long even if I fast forwarded, and the ADHD addled aren’t going to watch the whole thing anyway. It’s 9 minutes and 20 seconds of silence with nothing relevant happening in the picture track now. I suppose I could put some “waiting room” audio in there. But any music I’d use, for example, would likely annoy a fair number of viewers.
If anyone has a good suggestion for some sound to put in this gap, please post it in a comment.
I can’t really afford the time I’m putting into this already, and I could just let it go as it is now. But I think people need to see how long it took Smith to actually get there, how much time GZ spent with JonW13 before Smith’s arrival, and so on. And I do plan to add my speculation about the walking paths both GZ and TM took before the confrontation at the end, as a sort of postscript, though labeling it as strictly my own hypothesis rather than attributing it to the group.
I understand what you’re saying about the situ falling apart if things don’t keep to the proper timeline. And by all means I’m the last one to go against the restrictions time and analysis place upon the exercise.
Let’s move on. Could GZ have run south on TTL? Run to the last cut through and waited for TM to catch up and cross over to home, before springing towards him from the west, which would now be behind TM as TM faced east to get into his house? Okay that’s just speculation, but hey?
As far as filling those 9 minutes, how about some more of your pleasant voice narration?
Perhaps we could write some narratives about the other background evidence? You know like the other versions that GZ has given, an explanation of the original story GZ gave about the FT sighting that never happened and the false following episode faked from there.
Anything to fill that time. and make it useful. Mention of the bail hearing, the money that came in, the security people going unpaid etc. anything to make that time useful.
Anyway that’s my two cents. Like I said it is a masterwork as it is.
Yeah I’ve tried VLC it seems to ruin my cd drives, and it doesn’t play this file correctly, upside down and backwards. It streams correctly though.
Good work! I am a little surprised with the low speed. This speed for sure invalidate your hypothesis of GZ being mad at Shellie!
Two little points. First, i think GZ made his call after he stopped his car. Second, i would guess that Trayvon walked by GZ on his right (walking on grass) and then maybe went toward the truck and did kind of a circling just to have a closer look on GZ.
As you mentionned GZ made a brick at this moment. This gave him such a fear that he even mentioned it on his very first written report.
In his others different stories, he kept the circling but changed some details.
That makes more sense intuitively, but the call times are accurate to the second, and tchoupi, amsterdam and myself worked very hard to establish the clock time for the videos. We can’t be off by more than a few seconds at most. So that’s how it comes out from the ‘science’ of it.
It kind of makes sense. He stares down TM for awhile, then as he pulls away from the mailboxes he grabs his phone and punches 3-1-1. It rings for a bit before Sean picks up, resulting in the conversation beginning in mid-turn.
As for exactly where Trayvon walked and whether he made any kind of circling movement, that’s all speculation. It would also be impossible for me to animate. So the little moving rectangle for TM shows his general deduced direction and speed, not his precise movments.
Fair enough! I tough GZ mentioned something like Trayvon walking on grass.
@Whonoze,
I haven’t gotten the chance to view/listen. But once I do, may I forward it to Dave?
Thanks for letting me its your voice. Very nice voice. 🙂
Nice editing job. I wish I had your skills and tools.
i don’t agree completely of timing and location of the events on TTL. Here is a crude interpretation I put together. I used Dave’s videos instead of an animation.
I have the car pass the eph before it stops, just out of view of the eph.None of the cars passing the eph ever show a direct light from headlights. There is a pauze between a car passing the eph and before you see the lights. GZ may have called nen at that time Those lights may be his rearlights or the first one may have been GZ pointing a flashlight at Trayvon from his car. The second time you see the light may have been his rearlight because immediately following that light you can see a car driving east on TTL.
After the uturn the car drives all the way to the bend and starts moving north before it stops. Right after the lights in the ep video, you can see a light on the pavement in the eph video.
I edited in Dave’s walk east on TTL from the mail area towards the cut-through the moment GZ says “now he is coming towards me”.
I see what you mean. But GZ may have parked at an angle rather than actually turning the corner a bit. As I replied to Lonnie, I tried placing the first parking point of the truck closer to the curve (more like where you think it was) and it just didn’t work.
I had queried tchoupi about the light in the EPH being a flashlight, and he was sure it was a headlamp, as a flashlight wouldn’t be that bright. I think the reason we never see a headlight in the EPH otherwise is that it has a very narrow window to the street, and at one frame a second it just never catches a headlamp of any of the other cars passing at a normal speed. The second light is a bit of a mystery since tail-lights are always red. Perhaps a Ridgeline has some sort of white marker light on the rear quarter-panel.
Again, I think we worked the clock-time of the security videos down to about +/- 4 seconds, which means GZ couldn’t have called 311 from in front of mail kiosk, or after he turned around and parked. It has to be somewhere in the middle.
Another example of how my animation was driven by ‘making it work’ rather than trying to fit certain theories: I wasn’t trying to illustrate willisnewton’s car-pedestrian chase idea. It just turned out that way. When i had other settings for timing and position, the truck rectangle would run over the TM marker, or would get way out of sync with the light events, or would have to change speeds way to radically to get from one point to another.
Which of Dave’s videos shows the camera pulling into Jeremy’s driveway, turning around and heading back to the mailboxes?
I used this video made by Dave http://youtu.be/bZGbcL47iX0.
I didn’t change the speed of Dave’s video. I thought the timing was spot on. I started the car ride east on TTL just before you can see the rearlights in the ep.
I had to start the ep and eph vids at 22:03 to have Dave drive past the eph when you can see a car passing by the eph.
GZ said he waited for the call to be connected, so it is possible he called and started driving before the call was connected. But of course it is possible he placed the call when he started driving again.
I looked at those lights over and over again. I am sure the car passed the mail area, so it can’t be headlights. GZ was carrying a tactical flashlight, they have powerful beams.
Don’t you find it fascinating that Dave was walking right where GZ said he had parked his car, when he says “he is running” in the nen?
I haven’t yet been able to fully download the latest video, whonoze but I’m glad to feel somewhat vindicated by the likelihood of the car-to-pedestrian chase working out as you say it does. I’ve been ranting about it for months now, after finding out about the google earth ruler tool.
GZ marking the map Singleton gave him, and then quickly amending it was another huge confirmation for me when that bit of evidence was made public.
The question I tried to constantly throw at GZ true believers at TalkLeft biled down to one point, “where was GZ when he said the following?”
Sean:That’s the clubhouse, do you know what the-he’s near the clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman:
Yeah, now he’s coming towards me.
Believe what you want about PTSD, confusion, natural forgetfulness, etc but GZ does not exist outside of the bounds of space and time. He has to be SOMEWHERE when he says that, and his contradictory versions don’t add up. He said many times he was in the clubhouse parking lot, or “at the clubhouse still” if you give him the huge benefit of the doubt of what he’s saying and the parking lot is obviously not possible. And the “final” FT according to George position isn’t possible either, due to the “long tail” effect of how fast TM must have walked. That leaves few options like you said.
Even if you were to discount Dee Dee’s “mail thing” comments, we have GZ himself confirming TM is “near the clubhouse now.” I don’t care if TM was on the diving board of the swimming pool doing the macarena dance, it matters not exactly where he was – so long as he was closer to that building than any other we can make a good generalization about where GZ has to be.
At trial, george will have to undermine himself alone to back away from the idea that he was where we know he was. To me that’s the most devastating evidence the prosecution can present against him, since there is literally no one to rebut or sow doubt upon except George himself, in the moment, talking to Sean.
Looking forward to seeing the video, Whonoze. Thanks for the hard work.
That’s a great video, Amsterdam. It’s uncanny how close the gearshift sounds line up with the U turn made by the proxy videographer when he reaches the driveway of the 911 caller who heard the screams, there at the 2nd corner of TTL by the cut thru sidewalk. One more driveway down TTL maybe, or a slight pause here or there and it’s like the NEN call was done later, as “foley” sound effects for the video.
The walking is close to “spot on” as how I imagine it happened as well. In my mind’s eye TM left a slight bit quicker from the mailboxes and cut thru the grass the first pass, shortening the distance to the start of the cut thru sidewalk where he finally took off running after the car shifted behind him ominously, either after a Y turn or else backing up to keep pace with him. But it’s obvious from your video that it wasn’t much different at all from what you are showing – it couldn’t be unless Trayvon had the magic ability to walk-not-run faster than people can move. And like so many here have come to see, GZ was obviously parked at or near the first bend in TTL watching TM at the mailboxes, or at the very least “near the clubhouse/ yeah” as he says to Sean the NEN call taker. Otherwise he wouldn’t “shit a brick” when he did.
Watching your video play out to the end of the NEN call, it struck me once again that it’s possible that GZ fast walk/jogged to the T and FINISHED his whole call there at the T before moving to RVC. I’d like to see you continue the simulation using perhaps the video “reenactment” in slight fast motion to cover GZ’s move from final car position to the T area, then freeze framing again as the call plays to the end.
I’m not claiming I “know” that’s how it went down, but it’s one of my speculations that GZ jogged to the T and finished his call there, staring down the dog walk sidewalk to the south while TM had either ducked into a patio or actually made it to the first gap between buildings somehow. George claims he kept moving to RVC and he has motive to do so, but he’s such a liar I can’t help but imagine he is trying to conceal his “pursuit” some more by obfuscating about any pause at the T at all. I don’t really hear any walking sounds past the time it would have taken him to arrive at the T. It also fits the general motives to imagine GZ ended his call at the T having surveyed the dog walk and decided then to go to RVC and look towards the back exit gate with that as his timing. From there it’s still anyone’s guess how the two came to meet up, possibly with GZ pursuing from the south.
And, yes, since I am a lifetime member of the “department of redundancy department,” I’ll say it again. Many things are possible; what GZ claims happened is NOT possible. Your video speaks to that concept well. Thanks for posting it.
It is uncanny isn’t it? I think Trayvon walked on the grass too. He may have been a little further, but not by much. Considering GZ stopped his car and jumped out of it immediately after he said Trayvon was running, GZ must have been right on top of Trayvon. I’ll see if I can find video material to simulate a run. GZ is walking very slow and he keeps stopping. Maybe I can use some of Dave’s material.
Here’s an perhaps revealing tidbit I discovered while working on the sec cam video. JohnW6 says, “There’s two guys in the backyard with flashlights.” at 7:18:38. JonW13 arrived in the backyard with his flashlight at 7:17:55. But Ofc. Smith did not get there until 7:19:30. So if JohnW6 was not mistaken, who was the second guy with a flashlight? Perhaps JohnW6 mistook the light from a cellphone for a flashlight, but if he didn’t, well the only other person there was George Zimmerman. We know GZ’s ‘tactical’ flashlight wasn’t working. Which would mean that he had the mini-flashlight attached to the spare key in his hand after the shooting. Which would mean that he dropped it near the T after JonW13’s arrival on the scene. Which would mean he was already concocting his story in his head, and planting ‘evidence’ to support his bogus claims.
Keep in mind JonW13 had an iPhone that took flash photos, and of course he took a photo of the body of Trayvon as well as one of the tactical flashlight with the body in the background, both times oriented towards W6John’s patio door. In addition, the third photo which is time stamped as well shows GZ speaking on his own cell phone. That’s four separate light sources all together – two cell phones plus a strobe and the mini light possibly.
Goerge never mentioned having, using or dropping the keychain flashlight in his many statements to SPD. Is this a deliberate omission like other important facts he’s clearly left out for a reason? If so, why?
Assuming he used the mini light post-shooting, what was he needing or wanting it for? Had he dropped his own cell phone ever? He doesnt say, and in fact he shies away from admitting he called anyone. There’s just so much we don’t know.
While I find GZ not credible in many many regards, I’m reluctant to say JohnW6s statement about seeing multiple flashlights can convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that the mini light was deliberately planted up by the T for a reason.
To me the more likely story would be that GZ either used it in his search for the teen, and dropped it in haste somehow (in getting his gun, perhaps of just in surprise) or else he was using it post-shooting for unknown reasons and dropped it as a result of the arrival of ofc Tim Smith.
I think it’s more “telling” that GZ fails to mention the mini light than it is that it gets found by the T. But ultimately the thread is inconclusive until and unless we can learn more.
As I’ve said before, I’m not prepping a case for prosecution, just trying to figure out what happened. I certainly agree a comment in JohnW6’s 911 call would not convince a jury of anything. I would consider it a ‘lead’ for further investigation, asking John if he’s sure it was flashlights, and not a strobe or a cell phone, and more importantly asking JonW13 if he saw GZ use a flashlight at any time. Even if he dropped it unintentionally or innocently post-shooting – I doubt he’d want to be holding anything in his hands as he puts them up to surrender to a police officer – it would help debunk his BS story that his physical encounter with TM started at the T.
It’s certainly a clue, I agree, and one worthy of further investigation. Like I said however, the part I find most suspicious is not the number of possible flashlights seen by JohnW6 but the fact that GZ chooses to leave out the mini-light altogether even when it’s seemingly obvious it has SOME place in the true narrative. I’m unsure that GZ was quick on his feet/ brain enough to have deliberately planted the keychain up by the T as a means to help a cover story. It’s not as likely, for instance, in my mind as the idea that it’s more or less an accident of chance that he dropped it there post-shooting as he came to encounter either JonW13 of ofc. Tim Smith. If GZ were trying to immediately establish a 100% false narrative about moving on the cut thru to RVC and then “returning to his vehivcle” when he was “sucker punched to the ground” as is what SEEMS to have been his chosen false narrative, were he to have been planting the mini-light on purpose it seems he’d mention it with good foreknowledge of the suspicious distance from mini-light to the body, and then done a more credible job of explaining how he “stumbled” the 40 feet or so south of the T. He never made the claim, “I dropped my keys as I was being driven south by my attacker.” Yet that’s certainly what a planted evidence drop would be helping to build a case with. For that reason I personally go more with the speculation that GZ dropped the keys in the post-shooting haze after he wandered north, possibly in a subconscious or even overt desire to flee the scene. But like you say, unless we can question the FOUR people involved closer – GZ, John na jon, and ofc Smith we are just making educated guesses based on insufficient clues.
He can’t mention the small flashlight.
1) his main excuse for hanging around at the T for so long was, trying to get the big light going. (We only have his word that it didn’t work, as Serino got it going, no trouble).
2) The big one not working is also designed to “prove” he didn’t go down the path searching with it.
3) Admitting to using the small one for the same purpose would be just as bad. Even though, especially with it being attached to a car key, he could have said he had it out in preparation to getting back in the truck and turned it on so he could see (being dark as his auto-lights had gone off).
4) dropping it there afterwards opens the chance of saying he had it ready to open the truck, and dropped it during the initial attack — but he cannot state this unless specifically asked, as a “must have dropped” … because the attack was so unexpected and shocking, he’d not have noticed accidentally dropping something, now would he?
5) when JohnW6 saw lights, plural, he may have been using it to (a) find the big one (b) find the shell casing (c) inflict back of head damage on self etc etc. If one was JohnW13, then both lights would be some distance from JohnW6, as W13 met GZ up close to the T, ie about when he would have dropped the light. Then they moved back to the death site, W13 with flashlight PLUS flashing iPhone. W6 says he saw 2 lights but not that he saw them both exactly simultaneously, you can know it’s 2 from different location, angle, brightness etc even if not both lit up at same time. Weak lights a a distance, you’d hardly, if at all, see any extra brightness where they are pointing, but see them only when pointed in your direction, ie you’d be seeing the light itself, not that something’s been lit up by one nor the “sideways” beam.
=======YES YES he may have had it in his hand to OPEN HIS TRUCK AND FLEE, that must have crossed his mind for a brief moment, before remembering the cops would be there any second and knew he was there. And maybe dropped it so W13 would not think he was trying to flee.
He wouldn’t have needed the mini-light to flee. His keys were in the ignition of the Ridgeline. I think the key attached to the mini-light was his key for Shelllie’s car (though it could have been a spare for the Ridgeline).
Unless I am mistaken, it’s a honda key in the evidence photo. That doesn’t seem conclusive of much to me. But I’m not an expert in this area. I’d love to hear more tho.
There was some discussion about the sounds the car made – was there ever consensus on the sequence of beeps and noises that determined if the key stayed in the ignition or not?
I was operating on the assumption that he opened his door with the key still in the ignition, but that he probably took them out as he exited the vehicle, which to be honest we can only assume was the Ridgeline.
GZ tells Sean: “They’ll see my truck. The keys are in the ignition.” Sean is talking over the second sentence and other people have imagined GZ to be saying different things. But I broke it down in audio editing software, and I am 100% sure of what he said.
GZ does offer a few distortions or even outright lies during his NEN call, but on most things he is telling the truth (as he sees it) because he does want the police to come and assist him in apprehending the “asshole.” So he wouldn’t say, “They’ll see my truck,” if he was in a car, and so on. Of course, it’s still _possible_ he wasn’t in the Ridgeline, but the probability is too low to get hung up on it, unless some good reason emerges to suggest otherwise.
—
Ironically, perhaps, one of his distortions may be the thing most observers have tried to hang him on:
Sean: Are you following him?
GZ: Yeah.
After TM broke into a run, I don’t think GZ laid eyes on him until he re-encountered him after the end of the NEN call. TM had to be well past the truck by the time GZ says “Shit he’s running,” and the buildings would immediately have obscured GZ’s sight-line. It’s possible GZ had already formed his strategy of heading for the back gate via RVC to “cut ’em of at the pass” before Sean asked him about following, and for some reason he didn’t want to reveal that he was being THAT aggressive. Or perhaps he only meant following in the general sense. I say this because I am convinced did go over to RVC rather than follow the path he had seen Trayvon take to the South. Thus, when he says he’s following TM, he does not have him in sight, and is not following the young man’s footsteps. (Of course, i have no illusions he was looking for an address, or had any intent other than locating and detaining TM.) And the reason I am convinced he went over to RVC and down towards the back gate is that no other scenario I’ve seen logically accounts for the lapse of time between “he’s running” and the earliest possible start time of the struggle, given the location of the body, etc.
Great points Aussie. He may have dropped the keys out of a sense of guilt, either when he saw JonW13 or else when he surrendered to ofc Tim Smith. It’s worth noting I suppose that he felt “justified” from the start, it seems, and behaved in a manner that says that in his mind he “did the right thing” and was doing the right thing consistently throughout. This hardly excuses his behavior or his lies, but it tells me IMO how freely he assumes he had the right to murder this unarmed child, how freely he assumed he had the right to profile and pursue this mother’s son, and how freely he felt he was going to get away with it.
But again to be reductionist, we don’t know why, when or how the keychain flashlight came to be found up by the T. It’s even possible he dropped it accidentally the FIRST time he reached the T, and can be heard fumbling with the tactical flashlight seemingly as he speaks to the NEN operator Sean.
What drives me batty is that there is so much we don’t know and may never know. Whose phone number did he dial in the moments after the shooting? Did he reach them, leave a message, call more than one person?
Did he have his gun in his hand the whole time?
Where did they both move in the missing minutes?
Who closed the gap between the two of these people, regardless of where they moved or stood ground?
Who is yelling – one or both of them on the 911 call, and why? Is it George hoping for assistance in illegally restraining the teen? Is it Trayvon, pleading for his life?
What’s inside the head of Chris Serino, and why did he tell witnesses he was sure it was George the was yelling? What’s his private opinion of the guilt or innocence of GZ, and who does he trust in his police department and whom is suspect of racial bias, incompetence or political corruption?
Why didn’t the special prosecutor’s office catch the obvious lies and work that angle, the one we see so clearly – that GZ never parked at the clubhouse, and likely CHASED the teen with his car down TTL?
What part did Norm Wolfinger play in all this, if any?
I don’t think I’ll ever answer these questions to my own satisfaction given the information I have at present. Absent a full confession or new investigation findings that DON’T seem forthcoming, I’m just going to have to find other ways to put my mind at rest as much as it ever can be. An unarmed teen was killed by a liar and justice was NOT forthcoming until 2 million people acted in a peaceful but untied way. That in itself is something, and perfect or imperfect, a trail before a jury of his peers is on its way.
I think I can answer two of those questions fairly definitively.
“Did he have his gun in his hand the whole time?”
No. Trayvon wasn’t an idiot, and would have bolted if he’d seen a gun. GZ had it concealed.
“Why did [Serino] tell witnesses he was sure it was George that was yelling?”
Because that’s what Smith and Ayala told him, and he had no reason to imagine they were lying. That’s not even speculation. Serino arrived after GZ had been taken to the SPD, so the only accounts of what had happened he had at his disposal were those given to him by other officers. He made that comment about the screamer surviving BEFORE he himself spoke to JohnW6.
But yes, there is so much we don’t know now, and it’s quite frustrating. I do think some of your questions will be answered before all is said and done, but I do imagine there is much we’ll never know.
Thanks Whonoze, that’s sound reasoning.
The gun in hand mystery to me revolves around rhe thought that when George claims he reached for his cell phone he tells it differently each time – and if in reality he had his gun in his jacket pocket and his hand on the gun we are left to wonder if he brandished it CAUSING the teen to punch him in the face spontaneously, initiating the physical struggle which continued with the gun out. I tend to discount this version but it’s one possibility.
As for Serino I tend to agree that he took the idea of GZ yelling for help on faith initially, and as the investigation continued came to see that he was dealing with not only a bullshitter but also some biased people in his own department. How frustrating for him if this is indeed how he experienced the case. Serino didn’t have the benefit of hearing about (or from) Dee Dee, and had to do the digging until he’d reached a point where he was likely quite sure he was dealing with a murderer but had only scant proof against him as the man had killed the other participant / “only witness.” Yet however it unfolded, Serino kept George from clamming up and asking for a lawyer not only for the initial week but for weeks to come.
@Willis
Wrote in part:
we are left to wonder if he brandished it CAUSING the teen to punch him in the face spontaneously, initiating the physical struggle which continued with the gun out. I tend to discount this version but it’s one possibility.
I discount this scenario as well. Think about it, a kid is not going to punch someone because he is brandishing a gun. Think about it for a second, if I punch you thinking that is going to stun you, you still have a gun in your hand, your next thought after that punch is to shoot the person in the back while running from you after punching you.
A bullet is faster then any punch that can be given.
I never believed that GZ had the gun out before the confrontation. I do believe that he readied the gun before hand, then reholstered. But I don’t think he was looking for him with gun in hand.
As for Serino, I do think he got caught in the mix of things because of him depending on other officers to do their job righteously.
Serino had the benefit of experience as a homicide investigator, as such, his own opinions about who was doing what and when, are things for him to keep to himself. He is not supposed to go around a crime scene informing witnesses of what happened or didn’t happen.
It doesn’t matter who told him what, when or where, nor does it matter what he believed or didn’t believe, it is a crime for him to go around telling people what he thinks happened or what he believed happened because that is witness tampering.
He did not have the keys by the time Smith arrived. The key and the light (turned ON) were on the ground near the T when JonW13 came around the corner, or just after. Jon took a photo of it. They then went back towards the body and that is where Smith found them.
I don’t think he had the small light on while crossing the T. He was still trying to get the big one going. And if that had not come on, he’d not have had it IN HIS HANDS to drop it at the final scene. If he swapped flashlights up there he’d have put the big one in his pocket, surely? Of course the big one was not faulty, and he DID use that to maybe shine in Trayvon’s eyes etc. I believe he only took out the small one either to search for something after dropping the big one (eg shell casing) or to use the key to improve the dramatic 45% blood flow on his scalp.
Who closed the gap?
ZIMMERMAN.
The fight and shooting happened 41 feet down from the T. On any version of his movements, GZ never had any business down there. No way Trayvon punched him hard enough to fly that distance through the air. So he must have gotten there on his own two legs. Trayvon, on the other hand, had every business being that far down, as that was the direction of where he was living.
The other questions, we may never ever know.
Great point about the bigger flashlight being in his hand the first time he was at the T, aussie.
I think whatever flashlight he had may have helped him spot Trayvon since the teen was wearing highly reflective shoes.
I too think GZ closed the gap, I just can’t say I have 100% proof that he did. And yeah, I’ve been saying since last APRIL that the location of the body is evidence that George is a liar and his narrative is false. But because he killed the only other full witness to the events, he can claim a lot of things and it’s hard to disprove completely. But the preponderance of circumstantial evidence suggests strongly that he closed the gap. I think a jury will see it that way too.
But we’ll never “know” what happened to a moral certainty. Just “beyond a reasonable doubt,” which is enough to convixt on. So be it.
JonW13 took a photo of the tactical flashlight which was near the body. The photo of the body, in fact includes the tactical flashlight in it as well.
I’m uncertain where Smith found GZ, but “near the body” is a relative term anyway. What I am fairly sure of is that GZ moved north post-shooting and encountered W13Jon as he was doing so. We also know that W13Jon walked south far enough to see and photograph the body. Jon walked farther south than the tan bag, which tells me he was more than 30 feet and less than 41 feet south of the T when he snapped his pics of the flashlight and the body. Did GZ follow him south while he did this? We can’t know. But after, W13Jon took a picture of GZ holding his cell phone up to his ear.
I find it odd that ofc Tim Smith never mentions JonW13 being on the scene when he cuffed GZ. No matter how much one person admitted to a shooting, I’d mention the second man in my report were I the first responder.
Oops Willis my bad, it WAS the big light he photographed.
JonW13 was allowed to wander around behind the crime scene tape for a long time. There’s a photo of him (from TV i think???) standing all by himself facing some houses, and I think another standing with a bunch of other people including police. He seems to have been “part of the furniture” and so hardly noticed by anybody.
GZ moving north after the shooting is in testimony from JonW13 and W18, the latter in my view the best witness, not only in sticking to her story but in how much she saw.
Other blogs are discrediting her because of her lengthy panicking /crying etc to the operator. But that was not because she’s a flighty unreliable bundle of nerves witness. It’s because of WHAT SHE SAW — a murder. Also she DID NOT go outside and have her recollection tainted by hearing everyone else discuss their versions.
I’m not clear on exactly what scenario you’re proposing here. Are you saying GZ’s truck passed the mail area before we see that steady light shining in the EPH? So GZ passed the mail kiosk, stopped, got out of his car, and went back on foot with a flashlight? Or are you saying he went past the mail kiosk, then backed the truck up to where we see the light in the EPH, and it’s a flashlight shining out the passenger’s window?
Either way, I doubt it. First GZ’s ‘tactical flashlight’ was small, holding only two C cells. That’s not enough juice for a really bright light. Cops carry big flashlights with four D cells. Second, the round beam seems aimed directly at the EPH camera. But we know that’s where Trayvon ISN’T, since he never shows up in that little window onto the street. I think it’s an artifact of the camera sensor that it shows up as a round circle of light, because either a headlamp or a flashlight would have been at an oblique angle to the camera. Flashlight beams aren’t that wide, and I doubt even a big flashlight would be a bright enough point source to make that circle from an oblique angle. Third, and I think definitively, the beam doesn’t move even a little, until the truck moves forward. You can’t hand hold a flashlight that still, and GZ would need both hands to move the truck forward, so a flashlight would go out, or at least move, before the truck moves forward.
Re: “the keys are in the ignition ”
If he’s truly saying that it’s yet another signal that he isn’t planning on returning to his vehicle before the police arrive in the vicinity, or else what’s the point of saying that?
I’ll have to listen to that recording again – I don’t yet have an opinion on what he says there.
Of course it makes some sense to leave the keys in if the truck faced the cut thru but there are so many possibilities – the key could be a so called valet key and the regular key might be locked inside the still running car. This would ensure the headlights stayed on. But one would think the car would have been discovered if this were the case.
@willis
Re: “the keys are in the ignition
or maybe he was telling someone else that was with him……
If there was someone with GZ, then you’d expect for DeeDee to hear TM say “there’re a couple of crazy people watching me.” Instead, she only heard him say that there’s a crazy creepy white guy watching him.
@WSI
I think when GZ said he’s running, and got out of the car, we hear two doors close. If Trayvon is out of his (GZ) line of sight, so is the other person if there is one. Trayvon would not of seen them behind him if that person stayed by the truck. Reasonably to assume that Shellie is the one with him, she is not going to chase along with him. Hence the saying, the keys are in my truck.
When me and my husband pull into a gas station, he will get out put gas in the car. He will maybe start walking towards the store to get something to eat, when I open my car door and start walking towards him, he says the keys are in the car, meaning get them or stay in/by the car.
@Loree, there was a time when I thought I heard the two car doors too. I had actually asked others to listen to that part way back in an old thread when I was just searching for explanations of sounds in that call without a preconceived notion that there was another person. Since I initially believed that, if I went back and tried to listen, I’d probably still hear what sounds like two doors. However, I can’t imagine a scenario where Shellie was with him at that point (she may have been the initial tipoff or was with him when they first spotted TM, but I always imagined that she got dropped off before he went back). Why I say this was DeeDee specifically said that TM made the comment about the crazy creepy guy was when he was still back at the mailboxes, not later on when he was running. But let’s just say that TM discounted the passenger and was just referring to the crazy driver intently staring him down. Now if Shellie was back by the truck, then why would she have to be called? It would be more reasonable for him to point to where his truck was which was only a few yards away? But now let’s just say that he couldn’t do that because there’s something incriminating in the truck. We see a car going west on TTL away from the crime scene and towards the clubhouse just after the gunshot. Was that supposed to be Shellie taking off like a bat outta hell to take the evidence outta sight? That would fit nicely with the conspiracy theory, especially if GZ told her after the NEN call and before taking off after TM to move the truck should something happen. Now that’s WAY too premeditated for me, and personally, I don’t think either of them are bright enough for that. But I’ll give you one last scenario that’s a maybe. Maybe Shellie was supposed to wave the officer down and direct him in the general direction of the T, but the officer would still have to call GZ and he’d let them know where he’s at while he’s wandering around looking for the suspect. When the gunshot went off she got frightened and took off. All of this is of course wild speculation, and I don’t actually subscribe to any of it. Just throwing out possibilities that I can’t believe in without harder proof.
@WSI,
I must admit, my forte is not timing especially after the “T”, I leave that to you and the other regular posters here. You guys are much stronger in that regard and I rely heavily on everyone here on directly me and correcting me. 🙂
I do however like to speculate on Shellie/Osterman being with him that evening. I think the “safe” speculation would be the tipster. That would be more logical considering the timeline.
OTOH, we have GZ stating this in one of his interview. “She knew within 5 minutes” & “She called my buddy Mark, that was there”
It makes me and others wonder if Mark was with him or Shellie.
As to all your other possible scenarios, WOW.
Let me see if I can answer with my half of my brain working this morning. 🙂
1) The drop off of Shellie.
Answer: If she pointed him(TM) out, then GZ drove her back home that would make sense if it fits the light events of vehicles coming and going.
As to the rest of your post, I love wild speculation, and I agree with you that it’s just possibilities that are being thrown out there. I would need harder proof in this regard as well.
I’ve posted that Shellie is the one who can break George. She can give keen insight on him as to his habits, moods, dislikes, etc. She is his wife, and she knows alot more then the rest of his family and friends. JMO
PS I would like to use my name here but it won’t let me change it from BB.
@Loree,
Without more proof, or even with more proof, there are gaps, so we all fill them in with our own hunches. I don’t think there’s a theory out there that’s nailed it down 100% yet, so you’re certainly entitled to stick to your hunches. Just keep the smelling salt ready when you do put another hypothesis out there, cuz Whonoze might pop a blood vessel 🙂 Also waiting for Aussie to say “KISS! KISS!” and willisnewton to say “Many things are possible, what GZ says is not possible.” (You guys know I love you right? 😉 ) I think you’re right, there is no doubt that Osterman and Shellie know more than we know they know. I don’t mean them actually being a part of the shooting, but either knowing/tipping something beforehand or in the immediate aftermath that they have not let on. I am waiting to see how Osterman’s book will be used by the prosecution and which points they will cross-examine him about.
PS. I felt it was ok to call you Loree here since it’s the BBClist crowd. I know you have aliases as a result of wordpress accounts and not because you’re leading a double blogging life.
@WSI,
>>>Just keep the smelling salt ready when you do put another hypothesis out there, cuz Whonoze might pop a blood vessel 🙂 Also waiting for Aussie to say “KISS! KISS!” and willisnewton to say “Many things are possible, what GZ says is not possible.” (You guys know I love you right? 😉 )
This made my laugh so hard! Smelling salt! HA! I love Whonoze and everyone here as well, and when I see him “Blow Up”. I always say to myself, Oh boy let me the calming incense and blow them on his name. You have all of us nailed down, but it is out of love and respect. 🙂 I totally get that. 😀 We all have to be able to laugh at ourselves from time to time.
BTW, you forget Unitron. 🙂 Let me include him, he is in a class that I can not name. 🙂 Love his input as well.
Osterman and Shellie: I don’t not believe that these two where actual “there” at the time of the shooting. That is all GZ. I have to agree on the “before”.
My name: It’s a definite ok to use it here, or elsewhere for that matter. WordPress is a weird system.
I am not leading a double blog life, but it does have an appeal to it, so James Bondish. 🙂
Oh yeah, beloved Unitron: “Do not attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.” Or something like that…..Amsterdam just doesn’t have a mantra that I know of.
@WSI,
Ah yes, Amsterdam, she is very much admired.
So how come I ain’t beloved over at Leatherman’s Lounge?
unitron
(who remains uncapitalized, in more ways than one)
Oh sorry I capitalized you unitron, and I even knew that was a pet peeve of yours. Leatherman’s loungers just don’t understand you like we do. Not only do you tend to correct or question things, you don’t fall in line with the crowd, thereby making you (dare I say?) the “misunderstood misfit”? That, and there are quite a few people over there who are paranoid of infiltration by GZ supporters. But I think recently, they saw what that kind of paranoia makes a person become. I had thought that SDunn had calmed down after apologizing to me for going off on me over at BCCList. But then she got the whole Leatherman crowd going “are you nuts?” after accusing Pirahna mom (aka Patricia?) and the whole blog of going pro-GZ. Crossing fingers that she doesn’t make her way over here. Oh wait, just remembered that Whonoze moderates here, so there’s no way she and like-minded others will get through the filter.
Does sdunn post under any other names?
I’m having difficulty telling the mental time bombs apart.
Speaking of mental time bombs, I went back through the Professor’s archives a while ago to see when I started commenting there and was amazed at the difference in civility between last summer and late last fall, but what was really amazing was the way ajamazin suddenly turned.
unitron
(who can’t tell the players without a program)
@Uni
The only one I remember from Bcclist that was a time bomb was James F. Someone had link some comments made on CTH at the Lounge, and I looked out of curiosity, and lo and behold there was his name. I got out of there before my computer went on crash alert. There was a change, I agree and I addressed it. I too was surprised with Ajamazin.
@Uni
You are beloved here. It matters not, if they do not belove you at the “Lounge” as we do here. Even though I belong to both the “Living Room” and the “Lounge”, I have enough love for everyone at both places. Even when I want to climb through the screen and wring someone’s neck, I still have mad love and respect for almost everyone.
Oh Loree, you gone and dunn it, you capitalized AND truncated unitron……he(?) might be writhing in mental agony right about now….
@WSI,
Yep. I sure did. And you know why, because he likes it when I do it. HA!
He likes the agony. (secretly) hehehehe
eh, I am sure he’s still alive. 😈
We have an understanding, she and I.
Which is not the same as either of us understanding the other.
unitron
(who’s almost all writhed out and recovering nicely)
I have a mantra looping in my head, but everytime I try to write it down, only bits of data come out.
Is it a mantra for all seasons?
The mantra of La Mancha?
The mantra in the moon?
Okay, I’ll stop now.
unitron
Geez amsterdam, maybe you should rig a kill switch to your computer, if you start hallucinating out floating light blobs, you know it’s time to step away……
@loree
It is possible a second person was involved, but I don’t think in GZ’s car. Around 7 pm, 2 cars enter the front gate and drive down TTL. Around 7:05 again 2 cars drive down TTL, odd thing is we don’t see them entering the front gate. When we see all the activity on RVC just before GZ drives down TTL, I think again 2 cars may be involved. And right after GZ ends the nen call, a car drives west on TTL.
Of course all these cars could be unreated.
I think if another person was involved, they may have split up.
Did you notice in the statement by GZ’s girlfriend, that she says she was seeing GZ again and that he had told her Shelley didn’t want children while he really wanted them?
I think the prosecution has some great stuff to convince Shelley, GZ is not worth spending 5 years of her life in jail.
@Amsterdam1234
The cars: One of those vehicles has to belong to witness 19. The dog lady. She said she came in around 7pm. She said she was unloading her car. At the very beginning of the audio track 1 14 min.
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-19-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/
>>I think if another person was involved, they may have split up.
Yes. I still wonder about the 7-11 video. Its just to long for me to not think its not tied in somehow. It festers in the back of my head.
GZ talking to a girl that is sleeping with or trying to sleep with, about such personal things as to his wife not wanting kids, imo, is gross. First off, it only shows that he really does not love her (Shellie) and two he is willing to be with another woman who may or may not give him a baby. It suggest to me, there was problems in the marriage before all this occurred. He was already looking for someone else to replace her. His personality is all domineering. Shellie strikes me as one that will fight back when pushed. He doesn’t want that. He wants the opposite of what his mother was to him. I imagine Shellie thinking she did have a catch when they hooked up. I think she believed everything he told her, money house, good job. Here it is now five years later, and they are still struggling. She was well aware of his problems, but love makes you blind. You kinda sorta put up with these things because you think you will be the one to change him. Before you know it, he is contolling every move, every dollar, every phone call. I think Shellie actual revelled in the beginning when he was locked up, that she was for once in control of him. The phone, the money, etc. She even went as far as to challenge him on one phone call, that if he didn’t trust to handle things, to get someone else to do. His response was to hang up on her.
>> think the prosecution has some great stuff to convince Shelley, GZ is not worth spending 5 years of her life in jail.
Yes. Even if they don’t convince her, she still can get probation, get a divorce and put her life back together. She still can be saved.
@loree,
W19 lives on RVC, she wouldn’t take TTL. I think w19’s car drives through the gate around 7:07. That car turns left on RVC.
Did you see my video? It is very short and simple only the movements on TTL. I used Dave’s video. The lights line up almost perfectly.
@amsterdam1234
That is good. Eerie, how you got the truck to stop and line up with the light in the upper left video screen. And you know what I caught also, that I didn’t hear before. @ around 4:23 or 4:25 when Sean ask him if he lives in the area he says retreat view circle. I never caught that before.
@loree
Yes you are right. I’ve never heard that before either.
If you look at the top right video when the car starts driving again, you can see the rearlights between the big blob and snow mamma. When the car drives back again, as it is approaching the mail area, you can see the lights next to the big blob expanding. Those are the headlights. Then just before the car stops facing the mail shed, you can see a light on the pavement on the top left video.
ok going back to video
brb
This helps me understand. I still don’t get north/south/west/east. But I get this.
You know the more and more I listen to the call, the more I think someone else was with him. I have a question, since I am “directionally challenged”.
Oh wait before I post let me get the smelling salts and incense ready.
Ok I think I’m ready, here goes….
Lets say for argument sake that the Osterman’s are visiting the Zims. Osterman tells George upon coming into the retreat he spotted some kid at the mailbox, and he knows of the troubles @ the retreat per previous conversations with GZ. He drops off the wife. Shellie is telling George, don’t go out there, he tells her, it will be alright Mark will come with me, he’s a cop so it will be alright. He already has a pretty good description of him because of Mark. His call sounded scripted anyways. So they both hop into the truck. Drive by but don’t see him at first do a u turn. Mark being smart keeps his mouth shut thru out the call. Mark knows these calls are recorded. This is GZ call. He is only going along because of the wives, they feel safer that nothing will happen if he goes along. So they watch. Trayvon tries to see who is in the truck, but only can get a look at GZ. Mark and George did favor each other back in Feb. Both had baldy haircuts, stocky, short and both carry guns. Could Trayvon reasonable distinguish the two in the dark? Is it reasonable to think that maybe Mark’s only job was to herd him back towards GZ so he can confront him on why he was in the neighborhood. Mark can’t really do any confronting because its not his neighborhood and he has to think about his own job. There are witnesses who talk about a man with a white t-shirt.
So my question is this, where would Mark have to be on the map to accomplish the
” herding ” ?
@loree
Take your time. I got to go to sleep. It is almost 1 am here. Talk to you guys tomorrow.
Oh mY! Ok get some sleep.
especially since he was out of the car at that point.
@loree
Trayvon got a very good look at GZ. A white dude on the phone sitting in a car. No way he could’ve missed a 2nd person in that car. GZ didn’t miss Trayvon once he was on TTL. He stopped right next to the mail area for 30 sec, before he made the uturn. Trayvon couldn’t have missed any of GZ’s movements on TTL. He probably felt a little worried when GZ made his first 30 sec stop, maybe felt some relieve when he saw GZ driving away in the direction of the cut-through, probably was alarmed a bit when GZ made a uturn. And definitely knew GZ had it out for him when he stopped facing the mail area. I can only imagine how he must have felt when GZ then proceeded to tail him in his car.
If there was another person involved, that person was driving a second car.
One thing I found out while matching up Dave’s movements with the light events at the clubhouse, is that one of the slow moving cars on RVC around that time, couldn’t have been the same car, that drove on TTL and stopped in front of the mail area. That slow moving car on RVC appears to make a uturn on RVC, but doesn’t turn right on TTL.
I think that if a second car was involved, that car may have driven to the back entrance. It is possible that person was driving west on TTL around the time GZ ended his nen call. Maybe that would explain the loud voices W18 heard earlier.
All this is speculation but there is evidence that could back this up. There is however no evidence for another person in GZ’s car or on the dog walk.
I know which sound you are talking about in the car. I’ve checked a couple of Ridgeline videos and I think the second door you hear, may have been the closing of the glove compartiment or the sliding cover of the console between the front seats.
@amsterdam1234
Ok, I guess I’m not focused enough. I must say that if Trayvon would of seen more then one person that he would of told DeeDee and she would of relayed that info in her statement.
I can’t think of the other witnesses who said the same thing, that it sounded like a group or more then 2 voices. Brain is frazzled today.
I don’t think its a console because the sound happens after the first door closes. Unless you think the first sound was the console then the door.
Pure speculation, on my part, of course.
No, he’s clearly talking to Sean. Full quote:
“If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, they’ll see my truck; the keys are in the ignition.”
Some people seem to think he says the last phrase more quietly, as if speaking an aside to someone else. But that’s an artifact of the ALC of the recording device reacting to the fact Sean is talking over him — in other words it turns down the level of his voice because the total volume of GZ+Sean is over-limit.
In addition, he says this AFTER “following” Trayvon, 45 seconds after leaving his truck, the first 20 seconds of which he was running.
As WSI says, DeeDee says Trayvon said a white guy was watching him from a “car” while said white guy was using a phone. So Trayvon clearly saw GZ while GZ was still in the truck — as is obvious from the security video where GZ stops by the mailboxes for a good long while, a move something more than obvious.
So unless Shellie somehow packed herself under the dashboard, never spoke a word, was never spoken to, and then got out of the truck and walked home when GZ went running after Trayvon, she (nor anyone else) was never in the truck to begin with.
I’m really getting peeved by the wild-ass speculation that may have one piece of weak ‘evidence’ behind it, but ignores the logical conclusions of the greater mass of evidence, and somehow persists despite debunked. That mass of evidence indicates GZ did not have an accomplice. He didn’t need an accomplice. He had a FUCKING SEMI-AUTOMATIC PISTOL, and he stumbled onto a prey who was too righteous to keep running away from a “creepy old man” on the block where his father lived.
If GZ was clever enough to have his ‘posse’ set up some kind of ambush for Trayvon, he sure as hell would be clever enough to come up with a better set of lies to explain everything than he did. The utter pathetic incredulity of his made-up-on-the-spot story alone is proof enough that no one else was involved before the fact. Even Frank Taaffe, drunk on his ass, would say “C’mon George, nobody with half a brain is going to buy that shit.”
Ah, but sadly, 95% of the SPD did buy his shit, and 100% of his family. Evidence, schemevidence aside, here’s a twist of the “domestic hypothesis”. Whether she was with him or not, if she knew about his “hunt” and coupled with some domestic tension which led him to feel a bit emasculated, that was his extra incentive to not let this ‘asshole” get away. With trusty pistol in hand (or waistband), he was being manly that night. When he tells Jon to say “just tell her I shot somebody”, it wasn’t to mean “hey it’s your fault I did this”, it was to say “hey, mission accomplished, see? I caught a bad guy. Unlike my associate’s degree, I actually followed through with something, and I still have a pair between my legs.”
@WSI,
Love your post.
🙂
@whonoze Let say the events happened as you wrote. Ie, GZ pursued Trayvon up to near his house and pushed him back to the T. For GZ, it was not a easy task to built a story that would exonarate him. And as i mentioned earlier, he had very few time for it because most of the time he was “busy” with the policemen. And this why i am still quite surprised that he took the time and the risk to elaborate a different story for the events occured before he got off his car.
I consider GZ not a bad liar at all. He almost got away without any accusation. DeeDee’s account had been crucial in the process. GZ couldn’t know her existence and we can’t blame him to not had think about the interior ClubHouse cameras.
I encountered a enormous resistance from Mr. Leatherman and his commentators about the importance of DeeDee’s testimony. Even with it, it takes much speculation to explain the presence of Trayvon at the T four minutes after he ran away from there. Without it, it would be 100% speculation.
Unless the prosecution has hidden cards proving that GZ was not under Trayvon when he shot, DeeDee’s testimony is crucial. There is much more we can write about her, but this is not the present topic.
I didn’t know GZ had a record of being assaulted or a suspect in Virginia.
http://www.insightoutnews.org/readings/a-closer-look-at-george-zimmerman/
There is no mention of GZ as a suspect, the report was that he was a victim in an assault but because he was a minor, the police couldn’t elaborate on the incident at all. I had always wondered about that and if he was assaulted as a young minor. However, your link mentions that it happened right before he moved to Florida, so he was 17. Of course it doesn’t have anything to do with the present case, but you can’t just help and wonder what that was all about.
Considering his history of violence, I can only come to the conclusion that he was the one doing the assaulting, then shortly after the parents sent him along to Florida. But it does make me wonder.
I have a hard time jumping to the conclusion that GZ was the one doing the assault, unless this was his first successful attempt at the old switcheroo routine (like the double injunctions between him and his ex-fiance). In general though, it just makes me wonder about his younger years. On his myspace page, GZ wrote when he was ~22 about having gotten out of Manassas, VA as if it were some kind of rat hole: “I know alot of yall hatin cause im out and aint ever goin back, i used to look at people like me the same way. Can you really hate on someone for improving thier life?”
Manassas is a suburb of DC, and his parents weren’t dirt poor so whatever trouble or dump that he was in before had to do with his social network. He goes on to praise his group of friends, the good ole boys: “I love the fact that I can still go back home and crash on my boys couch as if i had never left, I can hit my boy up to handle a lil somethin with my sister and he’s at my house with his boys on bikes before i hang up with her! They do a year and dont ever open thier mouth to get my ass pinched.”
He seems to say that his friends did time in jail for something that he was involved in but didn’t rat him out. I wonder if GZ talked to any of those guys or went to crash on their couch before his 2nd arrest. If so, he may have opened his soul a bit more to them than he would have to anyone else, including Shellie and Osterman.
http://www.myspace.com/onlytobekingagain
@WSI
I am in the middle of constructing a reply post to you, but I have to get supper on the table. I will send reply in the morning.
@WSI
Finally some time to reply.
>>Can you really hate on someone for improving thier life?”
Use of the term “Hating” on him isn’t jealousy. It’s more like they hate that he is leaving VA, and not be around doing the stupid things being done at that age. At least that is how I understand it.
>>He seems to say that his friends did time in jail for something that he was involved in but didn’t rat him out. I wonder if GZ talked to any of those guys or went to crash on their couch before his 2nd arrest. If so, he may have opened his soul a bit more to them than he would have to anyone else, including Shellie and Osterman.
I take into account that he wrote that line after he talks about his sister. If they did something that bad to someone that hurt his sister in some way, that shouts trouble with a capital T. I think after whatever happen with the sister, GZ was involved and got his boys involved, but didn’t get any real punishment from the legal world, escaping it with Daddy’s help and his boy(s) went to jail but never told on him. Imagine the parents thinking, I saved your ass here, but you have to get out of VA now and we are sending you to Florida for a new start.
If he stated they were “boys for life” then I can see him talking to them. Other then that, I think the chain of people he talks in confidence is first the sister, then Shellie, then Mark.
The sister is more important to him then everyone else including Shellie. IMO.
Lonnie/Brown says “If he stated they were “boys for life” then I can see him talking to them. Other then that, I think the chain of people he talks in confidence is first the sister, then Shellie, then Mark. The sister is more important to him then everyone else including Shellie.”
You’re right, he doesn’t very much trust Shellie and that he would likely put his sister first. Somehow, I think he would even put those boys back home before Shellie and Mark as well. Although, I doubt he actually told anything to anyone, keeping it all close to his heart. But if he did see/talk to the boys, it would have been for a sense of comfort that somebody would have his back, and his “confession” to them would have been in the form of a certain look with a sideways glance, slow teeth sucking headshake, with or without the grin. OK pretty much what he did on the Hannity show.
@ Whonoze. Great work on your video. It really coming together and taking shape. keep going!
IMO the u turn on TTL is misplaced however as you have the car not passing the second bend before returning. We are all guessing more or less but IMO the car passed the bend by the cut thru before turning around like Amstedams video shows.
I also think TM moved slower but again that isn’t knowable really. The difference is negligible however. I just think GZ was closer to mailbox and TM walked slower making rhe chase more or less the same but the teen running from the start of rhe cut thru sidewalk and not the T. I also feel GZ paused at his car gathering his stuff bedew he started after the teen, altering the timing a little from what you animated. But the net affect is only a minor difference.
The car to pedestrian chase is what I’m always preaching and we see alike on that
one.
Again it’s not a big deal probably but I don’t hear the “keys are in the ignition” comment at all. I’m not sure what he’s saying but I don’t hear “ignition” at all.
Focusing on what we do have consensus on however I’m hugely encouraged we are marching towards a few very important conclusions as a group.
Well, as i noted above, I wasn’t TRYING to portray a car-pedestrian chase, it just came out that way based on what I took to be the fixed data points. So, to me, that means it’s a good hypothesis since it emerged ‘organically’ from the animation. I had a hard time getting that last turn around to work w/o having the GZ rectangle running over the TM rectangle, as I figure that didn’t actually happen 🙂
I took the first U-turn position from tchoupi’s diagram, but also in order for me to have gotten him to the bend and back, I’d have to have him really change speeds, and i can’t animate that. That’s why i say on the VO that it’s a rough depiction, only shows the general movements (not precise), and specifically say we don’t know exactly where and how he turns around. It’s tighter when it can be, e.g. in front of the mail kiosk, but on the E-W leg of TTL all it means to show is that he turned around somewhere and parked closer to the mailbox bend than to the cut-thru bend.
One thing to note is that the rectangles aren’t to scale. Specifically the GZ truck rectangle is way bigger than the cars you can see on the map. This makes it look like it’s moving more slowly than it is. But if i made it to scale, you could barely see it. This is just one aspect of how the whole thing is just an approximation.
I think it’s definitive about a few things though:
• GZ did not park in front of the clubhouse
• He was not going shopping
• He paused by the mailboxes for quite awhile, staring Trayvon down. (Trayvon apparently didn’t communicate this to DeeDee, so here the light events show something that we could not have guessed otherwise)
• He first parked facing the mailboxes (just as he drew on his sketch and then crossed out).
* Trayvon began walking toward the truck as it was facing him.
* After Trayvon passed the truck, GZ moved the truck to it’s final location, which entailed following Trayvon to the cut-through bend in TTL.
Anyway, the animation ‘is-what-it-is’. It represents literally weeks of work on my part, and I don’t have the time to change it or make alternate versions or anything. What I can take suggestions on is how to present the thing: pieces of narration, text fields to add, that sort of thing.
I would love to fill the 9 minute silence with background on the NRA, ALEC, SYG, the specific actions of the gun lobby in Florida and the politicians they have supported. But I don’t have time to research and write it…. (It’s not that i have zero time, it’s that I’m already at minus one month on the rest of my life, and still counting deeper into the negative numbers…)
@whonoze- your work is very tight and credible, you needn’t worry about the incidental details such as car sizes, etc.; Maybe at the beginning of the 9 minute wait, you could merely explain what the nine minute pause represents, and why you left it in there, etc., then leave it at that. After all, the video is meant to be a realistic re-enactment, right? And btw- I agree with Blushed Brown that you have a great voice for this! Kidn of feels like now we “met” you.
@bgesq
wrote in part:
And btw- I agree with Blushed Brown that you have a great voice for this! Kidn of feels like now we “met” you.
Yes, totally agree great voice.
Two new threads up.
One to continue this general discussion on a fresh page,
Another parallel thread just to look more closely at our “friends” in blue: Smith, Ayala, Wagner, Lee Wolfinger et al.